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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 5, 2016 15:45:58 GMT
Just picking up on an an excellent conversation in the shoutbox... Is it possible to 'cheat' in a single player game? And if it is not possible to cheat, because only the player is affected, is it a legitimate tactic for BioWare to 'fix' bugs that allow exploits in single player? (stands well back)
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Post by themikefest on Sept 5, 2016 15:50:21 GMT
There is an exploit in ME3 that has Wrex alive if the genophage is sabotaged
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2016 17:26:16 GMT
It is possible to "cheat oneself" in many different ways; therefore, it will always be possible to do so even in a single-person game. As a result, I don't think it's really encumbant on the developer to fix every exploit found by people who are just bent on finding such exploits. Their primary responsibility for fixing bugs is when it affects the playability of the game - e.g. preventing the completion of levels, etc. If they want to patch exploits, they certainly can; but I would hope they would focus on fixing the bugs that affect playability first.
When I was very young and just learning how to play solitaire, my dad would always tell me that the toughest opponent to beat at solitaire was the Devil. It was a few years after that when I finally understood that the Devil he was refering to was me. If, for exmaple, I played a game of solitaire and peeked ahead to see what card a certain move would reveal, I automatically forfeited any ability to say that I had won that game even though I might eventually get all the cards turned up that way. The only games of solitaire I can say I've won are the ones where I've resisted the temptation to peek... and it's the difficulty of resisting that temptation the makes that "devil" (i.e. myself) so tough to beat at solitaire.
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Post by Fogg on Sept 5, 2016 21:30:06 GMT
Story rich games tend to have a 'very, very easy' setting these days. In ME3 it's called 'narrative' I think? And in TW3 'just the story'. Basically you no longer need cheats.
It's different in for example strategy games, where console commands can make the game way easier than intended even by the easiest dificulty setting.
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Post by straykat on Sept 5, 2016 22:13:55 GMT
I think it's still cheating ---- it just doesn't matter. You can shoot a basketball too, while traveling and double dribbling... but if you're alone, you're not hurting anyone.
With others, you need to agree on some rules to make it fun. And you owe it to yourself to play a game correctly by yourself at least once. But I've completed ME2 a dozen times on insanity, for example.. and at this point, I've modded some things. Like shields don't block powers. I don't have time for it now, and have nothing to prove.
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 5, 2016 22:21:12 GMT
Given the rather broad definition of cheating, I think that it is possible to cheat in a single player game.
However, I also think that it doesn't matter if the only person you're affecting is yourself. Me and my friend used to use cheats on GTA 3 to give ourselves a bunch of weapons and then take turns going on rampages and as long as we're having fun, what does it matter?
I also use save game editors on Mass Effect 2 so that I can bypass things that make the game less enjoyable for me like planet scanning and dealing with paragon/renegade meters that punish you for not going almost all out down one path.
Of course it's fully within the rights of the developer to fix a bug that allows one to cheat like say, the infinite money thing in DA:O. Depending on what it is and how likely somebody is to stumble across it, it might not be a very high priority over other things though.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 5, 2016 22:23:03 GMT
I cheat in ME1. I don't want to go too Renegade, but I refuse to complete it without doing UNC: The Negotiation, so I use the Lorik Qui'in exploit on Noveria where you can keep repeating the intimidate dialogue option so you can max out both alignment bars and unlock both Renegade and Paragon-specific missions. Thinking about this, it kinda makes me want to never ever get a remastered version, should it ever come to be, because you just know they'll plug that hole lol.
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Post by straykat on Sept 5, 2016 22:23:35 GMT
Given the rather broad definition of cheating, I think that it is possible to cheat in a single player game. However, I also think that it doesn't matter if the only person you're affecting is yourself. Me and my friend used to use cheats on GTA 3 to give ourselves a bunch of weapons and then take turns going on rampages and as long as we're having fun, what does it matter? I also use save game editors on Mass Effect 2 so that I can bypass things that make the game less enjoyable for me like planet scanning and dealing with paragon/renegade meters that punish you for not going almost all out down one path. Of course it's fully within the rights of the developer to fix a bug that allows one to cheat like say, the infinite money thing in DA:O. Depending on what it is and how likely somebody is to stumble across it, it might not be a very high priority over other things though. Ive never seen that bug, but I wouldn't need it anyways. Just getting the Reaper's Cudgel once (which is hard), allows you to be rich for the rest of time. It's almost an official cheat by itself.
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Post by coldsteelblue on Sept 5, 2016 23:08:41 GMT
Yes, its possible to cheat in all games in many ways, whether by hacking, modding, or just reading story spoilers to know what's ahead, there are many ways to cheat
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2016 0:32:40 GMT
I think that people are obsessed too much these days with titles, and putting every little thing in a neat little box. The question itself is irrelevant, and there is no authority that can give an accurate answer aside from the player himself. Q. Is it cheating to start eating your sandwich from the side?... A. No. It's your sandwich, no one cares how you eat it, and to put a title on it is asinine. Sandwiches and games are not comparable. Is it cheating to "peak" at solitaire (i.e. when playing with a regular deck of cards, not online)? Is it unfair to then say to anyone that you won that game of solitaire? Yes it is - so it's cheating. That said, is it encumbant on anyone else (let alone the maker of the deck of cards) to stop someone from peaking... or is it really encumbant upon the player themselves to stop themselves? The answer is the latter... if they believe they are cheating or they want the others around them to respect them for beating the game legitimately, they have to stop themselves? If they don't want to stop themselves, they cannot tell others they are beating the game legitimately and they "cheat themselves" from the satisfaction of knowing that they can probably beat the game without cheating.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 6, 2016 0:49:24 GMT
People don't necessarily use a cheat to "win" the game in SP. I've used cheats to circumvent bugs, crappy/annoying game design or push the mechanics to its limits to see what happens. Real "cheating" is when you do something unfair.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2016 1:11:25 GMT
People don't necessarily use a cheat to "win" the game in SP. I've used cheats to circumvent bugs, crappy/annoying game design or push the mechanics to its limits to see what happens. Real "cheating" is when you do something unfair. I agree completely... there is a matter of the player's intent to also be considered here. Using a "workaround" to get around a bug affecting playability is not cheating... and in that case, I believe, it is encumbant upon the developer to fix the bug that caused the problem. Whether or not they decide to fix the exploit that allowed for a workaround is up to them. In the case of exploiting a bug for self-gain in an single-player game... the concept of "cheating" comes into play when the player deceives themselves as to whether or not they are "beating" the game (i.e. self-deception) or tell their friends they beat the game without mentioning that they did so by using an exploit (i.e. lying). Since the question posed is "is it possible" - the answer must be yes, it is possible to cheat in a single player game (although, I admit, I'm not really sure what the OP means by a singer player game)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2016 1:14:17 GMT
Sandwiches and games are not comparable. Is it cheating to "peak" at solitaire (i.e. when playing with a regular deck of cards, not online)? Is it unfair to then say to anyone that you won that game of solitaire? Yes it is - so it's cheating. That said, is it encumbant on anyone else (let alone the maker of the deck of cards) to stop someone from peaking... or is it really encumbant upon the player themselves to stop themselves? The answer is the latter... if they believe they are cheating or they want the others around them to respect them for beating the game legitimately, they have to stop themselves? If they don't want to stop themselves, they cannot tell others they are beating the game legitimately and they "cheat themselves" from the satisfaction of knowing that they can probably beat the game without cheating. You missed the point entirely. As long as you play your card game by yourself, and you are not sabotaging a human opponent with your cheating, the "crime" is victim-less, and the game is working as intended. Yes, working as intended - meaning providing the player with entertainment. The fact that some players get their entertainment differently than you, is absolutely the same as eating your sandwich from the side. I have a de ja vu. Are you going to bring up next emotionally fragile game developers? You're missing the point entirely - Solitaire has generations of "consensus" behind it as to what is considered to be cheating... and that consensus includes peaking ahead to determine a best next move rather than just taking one's chances. Eating sandwiches sideways has no such historical consensus behind it. Also, it's not victimless when the player usually proceeds to brag to their friends about beating the game and conveniently forgeting to mention the various points they may have "altered" the rules to suit their own wants. No, I'm not going to bring up emotionally fragile game developers... however, I will restate that such attempts to insult and berate individuals emotionally are not in line with the discussion at hand. I have absolutely no issues with your disagreeing with me and I expect, in turn, that you should have no issues with my bringing up points that disagree with your position as well.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2016 1:33:23 GMT
the concept of "cheating" comes into play when the player deceives themselves as to whether or not they are "beating" the game (i.e. self-deception) or tell their friends they beat the game without mentioning that they did so by using an exploit (i.e. lying). Video games are only a challenge if you desire to challenge yourself, first and foremost they are entertainment. If your entertainment comes from "beating" an AI and flashing your friends with your e-peen, that's your business. And if someone else finds his entertainment from making his character as strong as possible at the start of the game, that's also valid, and most importantly - none of your business, just like the sandwich. The developers entitle them "games," and they bother to program in rules, point systems, rare items, etc. The stores market them as "games." It's not just me that considers them to be more akin to other games than movies or records or other forms of "entertainment." You're also missing the point - If you want to "cheat" (ie. break the developer's rules) and tell yourself it's not cheating, that IS your business. I've been saying that it's not encumbent on a developer to try to stop you from doing that. However, if I want to consider you to be a "cheater" as a result, that's my prerogative. You can't tell me what opinions I should have about you (or anyone else for that matter). They are my opinions, and I am entitled to them.
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Post by straykat on Sept 6, 2016 2:01:19 GMT
People don't necessarily use a cheat to "win" the game in SP. I've used cheats to circumvent bugs, crappy/annoying game design or push the mechanics to its limits to see what happens. Real "cheating" is when you do something unfair. I'm definitely cheating by stripping the shield blocks in ME2. lol But like I said, I've already beat the game on insanity a dozen times. It's more about laziness now and just racking up achievements on my Origin version (I used to play ME2 on 360.. so I'm just passing time on the PC now). At the same time, I can agree with Up Up and Away more than Laughing Man. I think games are a separate thing than mere entertainment. I definitely encourage people to play as intended. But after 7 years and multiple playthroughs, just don't get on my case about it. I'm not cheapening anything and I have nothing to prove. I know the game in and out. Besides, ME1 used to have this feature.. shields weren't as powerful there. I wouldn't mind still making this harder, but still keeping this in. Like modding enemies to speed their power cooldowns or regen better. What I don't like is power based squaddies being mostly useless, except at the end of fights. I also hate how the cutscenes of ME2 have mindblowing powers, but they suck in gameplay. Like Jack vs 4 YMIR mechs.
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Post by Gold Dragon on Sept 6, 2016 2:02:47 GMT
Yes, it is possible to cheat in an SP game.
But all you really get is the fact that you cheapened your victory. Bypassing bugs aside.
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Post by RoboticWater on Sept 6, 2016 2:27:14 GMT
Cheating in a singleplayer game is like reading the sparknotes for a book. If the book is boring, then I can sympathize with the notion of skipping the prose. Although, I have to wonder why, barring academic requirement, someone would want to engage with with book at all in that case. However, if the book is good, then you're really only hurting yourself by shamelessly consuming the plot summary. I don't know what the numbers are for cheating, but I certainly hope that the majority only do so as an absolute last resort. They're potentially missing out on a great game mechanic otherwise.
Games are in a peculiar space where the discrepancy between gameplay progression and narrative progression in terms of both quality and difficulty can be so great that these two aspects of the final product can essentially be considered independently. I think it's unfortunate, because even playing a game on a lower difficulty can muddle its message. A simple tweak to the search result box in Her Story could utterly ruin the mechanics of that game, and I would hate for someone to miss the brilliant pacing of that game for the sake of ease. Sometimes, though, there's just no other way around it.
To put it succinctly: yes, you can cheat; no, you're not a monster if you do. I'll usually encourage people to do otherwise for their sake though.
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 6, 2016 2:42:24 GMT
Short answer, yes.
Long answer, why does it matter?
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Post by straykat on Sept 6, 2016 2:44:39 GMT
Short answer, yes. Long answer, why does it matter? It's good to have common ground to discuss the game, I guess. But that's assuming people want to talk about games, like we do here or other boards like this.
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 6, 2016 2:50:56 GMT
Short answer, yes. Long answer, why does it matter? It's good to have common ground to discuss the game, I guess. But that's assuming people want to talk about games, like we do here or other boards like this. Seems innocuous to me. Carry on then.
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Post by straykat on Sept 6, 2016 2:52:52 GMT
It's good to have common ground to discuss the game, I guess. But that's assuming people want to talk about games, like we do here or other boards like this. Seems innocuous to me. Carry on then. It is.. But I'm just saying, that might be the only use here: as a common point of discussion. Where people experience roughly the same thing and can discuss it, without worrying about one person experiencing it completely differently.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2016 3:43:30 GMT
Two additional points to raise about this, are player agency and "fair use". A. Player agency is usually used to describe wider options that are given to the player regarding the control of the character. Some games allow for more player agency, some allow for less. (This was mentioned above, but I will provide a specific example.) By changing certain things within the game, you can allow for more role playing opportunities. (therefore more agency, and to many players - more enjoyment of the product) Example: You play the classic amnesiac Hero without a coin to his name in an RPG by default, however, you would prefer to start the game as a bounty-hunter, a mercenary, or a merchant. This can be done by using a mod assuming it exists, or by directly adding resources to your character which in turn will allow you to customize him further by providing the appropriate gear and skills for his profession. B. Fair Use.The term " Fair Use" is a legal term that usually pertains only to things like creating a YouTube video from game footage and similar, creating satire based on an existing work, etc. However, due to the tone of some of the posts, particularly some of UpUpAway previous statements in a different thread about the subject and the seemingly judgemental attitude some have in regards to what a player is "allowed" or not with a video game which he paid a full price for, I want to point out that according to the terms of "Fair Use", and most certainly the spirit of "Fair Use", cheating and modifying a SP game is most likely within the rights of a consumer, as long as it is done on a way that does not affect other players or as a way to monetize the base product. I could go in further and detail how specifics within the law seem to support this, but I have no doubt most will find that extremely boring. What does "fair use" have to do with anything I've said so far on this thread? Cheating (i.e. breaking a set of game rules) has nothing to do with copyright infringement or consumer rights. You're dragging in a completely separate thread on a completely separate topic. I doubt a developer could sue a player for not playing an SP game in accordance with the game rules and I doubt any player could sue a developer for fixing an exploit that they've used to enable themselves to break a game rule.
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Post by bohemiadrinker on Sept 6, 2016 4:04:22 GMT
Off topic: Read the OP, hit ctrl+F and typed "work". Two results for "working as intended" right there in the first page. You never disappoint, BSN! That said, technically, yes it is. The game world is designed with a bunch of rules in order to provide whatever experience the designers want. If you break the rules, you're cheating. However, should anyone care? I don't think so. Should Bioware fix exploits? Yes they should; a bug is a bug, and must be squashed. And I say this as someone who, in DAI, had the whole party wearing Dragon Bone everything, and always had some hundreds of dragon bone at hand in case I needed money.
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Post by RoboticWater on Sept 6, 2016 4:08:16 GMT
I think it's unfortunate, because even playing a game on a lower difficulty can muddle its message. A simple tweak to the search result box in Her Story could utterly ruin the mechanics of that game, and I would hate for someone to miss the brilliant pacing of that game for the sake of ease. Sometimes, though, there's just no other way around it. I would like to point out that "Her Story" is the exception rather than the rule, and is barely even a *game* - at least not what people traditionally think of when they talk about video games. Additionally, those narrative focused experiences are hardly the games which are most commonly modded or hacked. You are more likely to find someone hacking DA:I for elfroots , than the search bar of Her Story. Ignoring the rabbit hole that is the definition of "game," there are more similar examples than Her Story. Save-scumming in XCOM is a form of cheating, and it most certainly mitigates the stakes. XCOM is a drastically different experience when you know you can just go back. Obviously, there are levels of cheating in games just as there are in all things. Giving yourself a few gold in an RPG might not ruin the game, but it may remove the sense of accomplishment you get from buying that item you really wanted. Although, given how lame most RPG economies are, you probably wouldn't be missing too much. Regardless, the point still stands; any alteration to the mechanics of a game alters that game's ability to elicit a reaction from the player, which can result in a worse experience. I'd love to live in a world where cheating was the exact equivalent to spark notes. It would probably mean that every one of a game's mechanics was so inextricably linked to its narrative that nearly any level of cheating would be decidedly detrimental to the experience. This is clearly an implausible reality, hence why I'm not so strictly against cheating. In the real world, cheating in some elfroot for DA:I won't kill the game because the act of collecting elfroot is about as engaging as just cheating it in anyway, nor is the progression so well-paced that (like a good survival horror game's for example) that having an abundance of a resource undermines the game's core message. But seriously though, Her Story has better and more interesting game design than most games I've played. Just because the mode of traversal is through search chains rather than rendered 3d pathways, doesn't mean that the game should be labeled something so nebulous as "experience." There was a lot of deliberate thought behind the input methods, atmosphere, and pacing that many supposedly "traditional" games could only dream of having. I'm pedantic not to legitimize the game itself (it does that well enough on its own), but to hopefully expand upon the meaning of "game." Games should have more than a couple predominant input methods, so more games like Her Story are only a benefit to the industry in my mind.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2016 4:42:37 GMT
What does "fair use" have to do with anything I've said so far on this thread? Cheating (i.e. breaking a set of game rules) has nothing to do with copyright infringement or consumer rights. You're dragging in a completely separate thread on a completely separate topic. I doubt a developer could sue a player for not playing an SP game in accordance with the game rules and I doubt any player could sue a developer for fixing an exploit that they've used to enable themselves to break a game rule. Your judgmental attitude on this subject necessitates establishing that this is actually within the rights of the consumer. The previous thread was on the same exact topic, which is why I mentioned it. And I wouldn't waste my time suing a developer for blocking cheating and hacking in an SP game (that's not what "fair use" is about ), I would either ignore the game due to its developers' arrogant attitude, or simply find a way to circumvent the "fix". My judgmental attitude? It IS my right to hold any personal opinion of anyone I want - good or bad, every bit as much as it is a person's consumer right to physically do with whatever they want with whatever they've bought (up to a point of not hurting anyone else with it). Your "consumer" right to cheat does not supercede my right to personally consider it to be cheating. The circumstances of actively promoting a hack to others online (which was what was being discussed on the other thread) are different and I will NOT be dragged into a discussion of that thread here.
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