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Post by RoboticWater on Sept 6, 2016 5:11:30 GMT
... Regardless, the point still stands; any alteration to the mechanics of a game alters that game's ability to elicit a reaction from the player, which can result in a worse experience. ... But seriously though, Her Story has better and more interesting game design than most games I've played. My point is that something that you consider a "worse experience", can be subjectively considered by someone else a better experience. Maybe they don't enjoy the full bore of the developer's "vision", maybe they would like to experience something which is still close in spirit and mechanics but are more mild when it comes to certain aspects. Not everyone likes five spoons of sugar in their tea. "Grinding", extreme resource management, and other aspects, are hardly universally loved when it comes to video game mechanics. My point is that cheating hacking and modding are subjectively making an experience better, even when others may disagree. People do this because they like to do it, and like the results. Of course it's subjective, but when I say "worse experience," I don't mean "worse for the player" (though that can easily be the result), I mean "less evocative of the developer's desired message." Players will almost always cheat to make themselves feel more comfortable, and feeling more comfortable isn't always the game's objective. Ideally, I would want games to be considered like literature. Getting through Heart of Darkness or Beloved isn't a universally loved activity either, but that doesn't mean I'll endorse using the spark notes if you don't feel like struggling though the prose. I genuinely think that it isn't worth even bothering with novels like that if you're not going to engage with the text. They might not be your cup of tea, but that's kind of the point. By being different, tough, and uncomfortable, they expand your mind and hopefully improve you as a person. It's not just listening another story, it's grappling with an alternate mode of thinking. Getting the plot like you do from spark notes is secondary to the act of immersing yourself in the prose. Like I said, most games aren't really there yet, nor will most ever be (it's not like every game can be as complex as rare literary masterpieces), so I don't expect every aspect of their being to be perfectly evocative of the game's underlying themes. Games are also in an interesting position where their narrative can be interesting and challenging while their gameplay isn't and vice versa. Hell, given how many dimensions games have compared to books, there could any number ofsmall aspects that someone could hate. In those situations, cheating is a perfectly acceptable tactic, but we should call cheating like it is: altering the experience usually to feel more comfortable. I'm not saying that's universally bad, it isn't. Just don't expect me to just tell someone to go ahead and cheat unless it's last resort or unless I know they likely wouldn't miss out on anything. I think it's a shame that someone might miss out on the gratification of beating a super tough boss after multiple attempts or the tension that goes along with XCOM without save-scumming. If they're hell-bent on playing the game, but simply can't do it, sure, cheat, but I'd still encourage them not to. This is why I'm all for variable difficulty levels. I wish that differences in difficulty had more attention put into them and more options in general (e.g. hours needed to grind), but something is better than nothing. The intended experience might be less mitigated that way. Ideally, these kinds of difficulty settings could be built more naturally in the game as well, like Dark Souls' summoning mechanic, but again, anything more curated is better than nothing. And let's lay lay down some distinctions between modding and cheating. Modding can certainly be used to cheat, but not all modding is cheating. I'd define modding as either an experience unto itself or something that attempts to improve the existing experience of the game, whereas cheating is something that undermines the experience of the game without adding any significant experience of its own. There's a difference to toggling god mode on and actually providing an experience of a god, or cheating in a sack of cash and discovering a large quantity of gold left by a dead adventurer (even that would seem cheap without maybe a curse to go along with the gold).
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Post by straykat on Sept 6, 2016 6:28:35 GMT
My judgmental attitude? It IS my right to hold any personal opinion of anyone I want - good or bad Just like it's my right to show you nothing but disdain for for your judgmental attitude. It's two sides of the same coin. Action and reaction. I don't even know what this is argument is about. Is he against cheating or just the way you're trying to defend it? I'll side with him if that's the case. It's OK to call it "cheating". Why try to avoid the definition? That said, it shouldn't matter so much.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 6, 2016 8:34:01 GMT
Sorry I went off-topic with my first post. I just realised this is about singer games. I doubt it is possible since the audience is right next to you - unless they feature online play now. Pretty hard to fool people with a playback in the same room or have someone else sing for you.
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Post by lynroy on Sept 6, 2016 9:13:04 GMT
Isn't that what lip syncers do? (Lol thread title typo)
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 6, 2016 9:19:43 GMT
Isn't that what lip syncers do? (Lol thread title typo) Ye, but you should be able to hear if someone is really singing or not in the same room at home.
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 6, 2016 10:13:26 GMT
Stealth-edits title: Is it possible to cheat in a singer player game?to Is it possible to cheat in a single player game?
Creeps away...
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Post by Pearl on Sept 6, 2016 10:27:29 GMT
Absolutely it is. Anyone who has ever used a console command, coalesced edit, trainer, or other similar things has cheated at the game they were playing.
Does it matter, in the context of single-player games? Hell no. People are free to play however they want to as long as it doesn't negatively impact the experience of anyone else.
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Post by shodiswe on Sept 6, 2016 10:36:32 GMT
I think you should play the game as intended first.
Then, you can mix things up to make them more itneresting... in different ways.
After all, the purpose of a singleplayer game is to have fun and "play". In a single player game it's clearly not cheating since it's not compared to other peopel or VS other people, you're just playing around with virtual pixel dolls, doll houses and whatever else might be in the game. You're using your imagination to extend the gameplay.
But, I recommend doing it the way designed, before you start messing up the game and rules. Least unless the game is so horrible that the only way you can enjoy it is by manipulationg it like crazy for the fun of it.
The idea is that the game designers setup the optimal "fun" rules set, if you mess with it, you might take soem of the fun out of the game, but in new game plus gameplay where you've already played through the game and enjoyed it, it hurts less to play around with it and see if you can have some different fun and spice it up a little. It deffinately depends on what type of game it is and what you "change" or if it's just an exploit/bug.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 6, 2016 11:34:34 GMT
Stealth-edits title: Is it possible to cheat in a singer player game?to Is it possible to cheat in a single player game?
Creeps away... Oh you! Now you must sing for the BSN! Live in online concert!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2016 11:47:46 GMT
My judgmental attitude? It IS my right to hold any personal opinion of anyone I want - good or bad Just like it's my right to show you nothing but disdain for for your judgmental attitude. It's two sides of the same coin. Action and reaction. On this thread... there was no "action" for you to "react" to. You're the one who came here and initiated this exchange with a snide remark about "emotionally fragile developers" and making the statement that cheating in a single-player game occurs only in an individual's head and that only the individual can judge it. I counter with the discussion point that society has a history of judging what is cheating and not cheating in even ancient single-person games (i.e. solitaire) and now you're accusing me of being judgmental? I'm trying to stick to making/furthering discussion points here. Am I going to be stalked by you on this site for comments I've made on one thread that were, IMO, largely misunderstood by you? I have been respectfully avoiding that other thread in an attempt to avoid getting into a deeper confrontation with you... what else can I do? Recapping - People playing single-person games do decide for themselves whether or not they stick with the game's rules. The developers of the game do not have to implement means to stop them, but they can try to if they so desire. Other people, however, can still identify any breach of the game's rules as cheating and they are entitled to do so. It's not something that is solely within the head of the individual playing the single-player game and hasn't been such ever since people started playing single-person games (like solitaire). Video games are games in that the developers do program in identifiable sets of "rules" for playing that game even in single-person modes and they design the game around those game rules that they set. Conversely, there are no game rules for eating sandwiches.
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Post by Dekibra on Sept 6, 2016 11:51:36 GMT
in a SINGLE PLAYER game this question really doesn't matter but I agree with shodiswe and game exactly like that: first DA:I playthrough: all vanilla, no nothing second playthrough though: I helped myself to a little more gold - didn't want to grind again Skyrim as an example for modding: I simply HAD to use mods right from the start because some things in the vanilla game were just plain BAD (user interface, inventory etc. sucked, the faces were way too pixel'ish...) as long as it doesn't affect others (i.e. multiplayer) - where is the harm!?
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Post by nanotm on Sept 6, 2016 11:53:54 GMT
certain "cheats" don't really effect the game that much, in many games by a certain company there is a cheat you can use to have unlimited inventory space without suffering from being overweight, which is rather helpful since they give you a tiny limit and then litter the world with collectable items which you actually need to pick up along the way and its boring as hell running to the shop and back to the battle scene to loot.
other cheats like god mode or unlimited ammo change the mechanics of playing the game so there not as cool, but again some companies put that as an unlockable feature for the follow up playthroughs (because you already completed the game why struggle to play it the same way a second time)
I don't view either as "cheats" because they don't materially alter the game play, some in game exploits (like always selling stuf that's worth less than 1000 credits because the vendor always pays a minimum of 1500 credits)again are not really cheating its just using a mechanic to make the progression faster if you have the time to waste doing it..... (and yes like most people I used that "trick" in me3 with with the bronze cards when citadel was released to finally max out my inventory in the SP game before it was patched out due to complainers)
that's not like I was modifying the game to make the worthless level 1 pistol a one shot one kill leviathan killer (which some people did) or change the .ini file so that each mission paid a reward of millions of credits, but when you do that sort of thing in single player your only cheating yourself so who cares how you chosoe to play.
on the other hand I got mighty annoyed at BW because of the stupid glitches that refused to complete any of the mission badges which made me want to cheat just ot poke two fingers up to them.....
having said all that I was overly annoyed when people cheated in MP because it ruined the challenge, although I stopped playing money farm when BW changed the maps to make it impossible and then the only games you could find were filled with map hackers or missile glitchers or the cash reward cheat games...... wheres the fun or sence of achievement in that....
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Post by Elfen Lied on Sept 6, 2016 12:33:34 GMT
I usually tend to play my games as they are intended to be. For this reason I don't even use any mod, unless they are fixes for some unresolved bug. I am also willing to play the most boring parts of every game, even after many playtroughs (I played ME2 six times and I always did planet-scanning, never used the "skip the fade mod" in any of my DA:O playtroughs).
Having said that, I must say that I never had any problem, neither felt guilty, the few times I decided to use a cheat, which I only did when I was at a point where I had to choose bewteen cheating or quitting the game. The purpose of a game is to have fun, and if the game is unfair, or if there is a game mechanic that I hate and is depriving me of fun I don't really see why I should not use an option to make it fun again. Especially if, like I said, the only other option available would be just stop playing.
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Post by degs29 on Sept 6, 2016 14:39:26 GMT
I think it's still cheating ---- it just doesn't matter. You can shoot a basketball too, while traveling and double dribbling... but if you're alone, you're not hurting anyone. I agree with this. Though, you shouldn't be able to cheat and still get achievements. Keeping the analogy, that'd be like setting the world record for most hoops sunk in 1 minute, even though you're standing on a ladder and just keep repeatedly passing the ball through the hoop by hand. Most games rightfully prevent you from getting achievements if you're entering a cheat code. But, I also consider non-cosmetic microtransactions in SP to be a brand of cheating and you just know they won't be barring you from achievements for those. I consider cheating and exploits to be different things. By exploit, I mean taking advantage of gameplay mechanics in such a way as wasn't intended by the devs. For example, it's possible in ME3, if you keep a light loadout, to spam Charge + melee or Nova in such a way as to make yourself invulnerable. That'd be an exploit. I wouldn't consider this cheating, but personally I avoid such tactics because it takes all of the challenge out of the game...and then what's the point?
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Post by RoboticWater on Sept 6, 2016 14:42:57 GMT
Of course it's subjective, but when I say "worse experience," I don't mean "worse for the player" (though that can easily be the result), I mean "less evocative of the developer's desired message." ... I don't disagree that you wouldn't get the same experience in certain games if you cheat or mod, and I don't disagree that the challenge is lost if you use a god-mode cheat. However, not all cheats are meant to make your character a god, and not all are used in this manner. What I disagree about is the reverence for the "artistic vision" of the developer... ...So in this case I'd argue that the "cheat" I used, objectively improved game mechanics. My character was not made into a god, and constant use of augmentation could still deplete energy, and yet new options were opened, and the gameplay actually became closer to the lore rather than being completely segregated. You trying to split hairs where it isn't needed. I get it; some games have lame mechanics that are best removed or ignored entirely. I also don't see where you're pulling the term "reverence" from, because I've made it perfectly clear that I think games aren't perfect, and that cheating–therefore ignoring the "revered"artistic vision–is acceptable in many situations, like the one you describe. My point is, for every cheat that circumvents poorly implemented mechanics, there are just as many cheats that circumvent good mechanics (i.e. XCOM, god mode, money in RPG, etc.). I'd be perfectly willing to tell people to cheat past the energy drain in DX:HR/MD, but only because I know for a fact that they're not missing out on anything (I actually think the games would be improved). Similarly, I'm perfectly willing to tell people to just read a synopsis or an abridged version of A Feast for Crows because I think that novel is an absolute slog in an otherwise good series, yet it provides a certain set of plot point that are relevant to the next novel. I don't have absolute reverence for artistic vision, I have respect for it. I believe that a developer's original vision should be honored as much as possible, because I believe that the mechanics of most games are implemented intentionally. That's what makes games art. Not because they have a nice aesthetic or a good story, but because they are made by designers who deliberately invent mechanics which leverage the interactive medium to elicit specific reactions from the player. Developers obviously aren't perfect, and their work can obviously be improved by cheats, but I think it's only fair that those cheats are considered acceptable only when we can guarantee that they're not messing up the game. I don't think people are wrong for save-scumming in XCOM (I do it myself), but I have to wonder why you're even engaging with the product if you're not willing go through with one of its most vital elements. While there are plenty of reasons I can think of ("I just want to play a casual 4X game" just to pick one), I wouldn't recommend save-scumming without mentioning the caveat that they're missing out on a better experience. I just don't want games to seem like toys which exist purely for our pleasure, because they're not. They're experiences sometimes need to be grappled with.
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Post by mummy22kids on Sept 6, 2016 15:00:22 GMT
Meh sure it's possible but who cares. I always do a few vanilla playthroughs (usually about 10) of a game to try different things out and then I cheat. I use mods/console commands/trainers- mostly to skip stuff I don't like (I was so glad for skip the fade in DAO).
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Post by nanotm on Sept 6, 2016 15:16:43 GMT
and sometimes the developers got their work time cut short by the publisher so they didn't do the QA that would of told them their game mechanic doesn't work right or they used a lazy cut n paste form another game that didn't work right in the original and is still bonk now (like limited inventory space) were playing space age /fantasy & magic games where magic pockets or unlimited carry weight should be expected not used to limit your game play to pointless repetitive tasks...
at least some companies appreciate this and either build it in or negate it by design whilst others prefer to give out console commands so the user can enable it for themselves whilst others force us to find /create a mod or cheat to achieve it which after over 20 years is just lazy of them....
and games are like toy's, you get them so you can derive pleasure from them, sure there art can be amazing and the experience can be fantastic but it can also have niggling annoyances or just be downright frustrating which makes people decide to stop playing and write poor or low scoring reviews because they make things too repetitive, take deus ex as a prime example, the best wayt yo make money is to ko or kil lthe cops then loot one weapon at a time and run to a vendor to sell it rince and repeat ad infinitum, but you can only pick up one of each gun type at a time and only a limited inventory space anyway, no good reason for this other than to try and make a 3 hour game last 12 hours, whci his rather much the same problem as deus ex "the fall" had its got virtually no substance to it after the cool graphics, just a lot of buggy non working code..... nothing cheat program cant fix of course but then its got even less replay value....
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Post by Milady on Sept 6, 2016 16:27:10 GMT
There is always a way.. but sometimes it's a path you should not take
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 6, 2016 17:22:01 GMT
<<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>
Depends if Denuvo is active in the SP campaign. It certainly was with DA:I on DAY 0.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 6, 2016 17:31:39 GMT
I think you should play the game as intended first. Then, you can mix things up to make them more itneresting... in different ways. After all, the purpose of a singleplayer game is to have fun and "play". In a single player game it's clearly not cheating since it's not compared to other peopel or VS other people, you're just playing around with virtual pixel dolls, doll houses and whatever else might be in the game. You're using your imagination to extend the gameplay. But, I recommend doing it the way designed, before you start messing up the game and rules. Least unless the game is so horrible that the only way you can enjoy it is by manipulationg it like crazy for the fun of it. The idea is that the game designers setup the optimal "fun" rules set, if you mess with it, you might take soem of the fun out of the game, but in new game plus gameplay where you've already played through the game and enjoyed it, it hurts less to play around with it and see if you can have some different fun and spice it up a little. It deffinately depends on what type of game it is and what you "change" or if it's just an exploit/bug. <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> Ah... but if you are not having "fun" as is or find it "boring" as is, then the choice is to drop the game and do something else or find some ways to make it interesting / fun to you. I find that some players just don't have the perseverence to understand and manipulate the game mechanics. Mostly true for the casual player.
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Post by Dekibra on Sept 6, 2016 17:43:36 GMT
Meh sure it's possible but who cares. I always do a few vanilla playthroughs (usually about 10) of a game to try different things out and then I cheat. I use mods/console commands/trainers- mostly to skip stuff I don't like (I was so glad for skip the fade in DAO). "Skip the Fade" ... Best Mod Ever!!
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Post by ApocAlypsE on Sept 6, 2016 18:09:40 GMT
Cheat? I've passed this stage long ago. IMO I don't finish a single player game until I finish it in the hardest difficulty.
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kino
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
kinom001
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Post by kino on Sept 6, 2016 19:39:57 GMT
Mostly I'm ambivalent if someone decides to "cheat" in their campaign. Still, it's the developers game, if they wish to patch exploits through patches that's their choice, just as it's the customers choice whether they apply the patch.
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RoboticWater
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
Posts: 219 Likes: 552
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RoboticWater
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August 2016
roboticwater
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
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Post by RoboticWater on Sept 6, 2016 21:01:24 GMT
You trying to split hairs where it isn't needed. ... Well, this thread is about splitting hairs anyway, so that's appropriate... Still, the distinction is important (#NotAllCheating). I still hold my original position: The question isn't really relevant, and to preach about a particular personal preferences to others is rather arrogant. No, but you're making a pointless argument about whether or not artistic vision is relevant. That's always been up to the player. You also seem hung up on the notion that I'm trying to make cheating a bad thing. In the context of singleplayer, cheating is an entirely neutral concept. Cheating simply means breaking the rules, but if those rules only matter to the single player of the game, then it's entirely up to them whether or not those rules should be followed. I've been dealing in facts: cheating is often used to circumvent mechanics that feel uncomfortable; circumventing mechanics may dilute the intended message of the game; receiving a diluted message make the resulting experience less enjoyable or even pointless. All of that is true no matter your stance on cheating as a whole. My stance is that I don't advocate for cheating if I can avoid it. Go ahead and read spark notes for Shakespeare if you want, I just think you'll be missing out. I'm not really sure what your agenda is here. You're waltz in here accusing me of being arrogant and preachy about my opinions and others of being judgemental when all I've ever done is say that cheating in singleplayer is a perfectly acceptable practice that may have negative side effects.
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Deleted
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Nov 25, 2024 10:22:43 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2016 21:57:31 GMT
You're waltz in here accusing me of being arrogant and preachy about my opinions and others of being judgemental when all I've ever done is say that cheating in singleplayer is a perfectly acceptable practice that may have negative side effects.That really wasn't my intent, and the word "arrogant" wasn't aimed at you specifically. I don't actually disagree with the bolded statement. I merely think that some people are being overly preachy about it, and I personally detest authoritarianism in any topic without a *very* good reason. What I called judgmental, were certain absurd claims in another thread by a poster about this subject in an argument we had - like developers becoming depressed and angry because of cheating in SP and stopping to make games (while mentioning that his friend the game developer committed suicide, presumably because he was not shown enough respect. or something.), which is both absurd and arrogant (how is it anyone's business what I do in the privacy of my home? how is it fair to blame a "cheater" for a developer with mental illness?). He initiated the same argument with me again here and tried to pretend like the previous discussion never happened. But that's certainly not the point of this thread, and I don't want to derail it any further. No, this is getting old... your underhanded talking about me as though I can't read posts you make to other people while continuing to call me names like "judgmental" - when you're the one making offhand judgments about people (i.e. emotionally fragile developers) and calling me "preachy" when you're the one preaching about how defining "breaking a game's rules" as cheating is somehow "wrong." I don't care whether or not anyone cheats in a single-player game. Do it if you want. You shouldn't, however, have to justify it by denying that it's cheating then or call me or anyone else judgmental for considering your cheating merely to be exactly that - cheating. When a person cheats in a single-person game the person they are cheating is themselves (i.e my opening comment was that there are many ways to cheat oneself, so it is possible to cheat in a single-person game). BTW - My "absurd" comments on the other thread were basically about according some respect to developers (i.e. read Robotic Warrior's comments on this thread as well). It's on exactly the same lines as my comments on the other thread - although I admit, he says it much better than I.
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