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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Sept 6, 2016 22:29:47 GMT
So much judgment going on in this thread, it is humorous. Over how someone else plays their own game in their own house. Whew.
*****
The Witcher 1, which I finished recently, was a fun story with interesting characters and overt sexuality which I found entertaining as a change of pace.
However, the combat gameplay was pants and I found it dull as hell. Enough to quit playing the game for long lengths of time due to boredom.
Found a God Mode type of mod, proceeded to simply roast with fire anything in my way, and had a rollicking good time.
I enjoyed the story. I enjoyed the variety of enemies, the landscape, etc. The authors were paid, the publishers were paid, and that was the end of their interest. Mine however remains. And I will cheat my way like a madman through Witcher 2 because the gameplay is now a damned hack'n'slash.
I played KotOR several times without mods, but that Skip Taris mod sure was popular.... Because a lot of that planet was boring and on replay the introductions get tired.
Yes, you can cheat in a single player game. If you cheat because you want to beat the game and you just can't, then yes you cheat yourself. I cannot recall the last time that was the case, except in a coin arcade. Grown-ass gamers can make these decisions for themselves.
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Post by Gold Dragon on Sept 6, 2016 22:31:51 GMT
Can? Yes.
Should? Debatable. If it affects other's enjoyment. then no.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2016 22:33:40 GMT
No, this is getting old... your underhanded talking about me as though I can't read posts you make to other people while calling me names like "judgmental" - when you're the one making offhand judgments about people (i.e. emotionally fragile developers) and calling me "preachy" when you're the one preaching about how defining "breaking a game's rules" as cheating is somehow "wrong." I don't care whether or not anyone cheats in a single-player game. Do it if you want. You shouldn't, however, have to deny that it's cheating then or call me judgmental for considering your cheating to be cheating. If you can't stand the heat, don't go into the kitchen. If quoting your claims causes you such distress, perhaps you should think twice before making them. You can't make sweeping statements and accusations based on anecdotal evidence and then cry foul when someone calls you judgmental. (which is rather mild, considering your attitude) Also, I don't have a problem with the word "cheating". I have a problem with the arrogant claim that modifying or hacking video games is somehow "offensive" towards developers, when neither you nor a developer has any business pushing their noses into how people enjoy the products they pay a full price for and use in compliance to the terms of "Fair Use". All I claimed in this thread was that the question is irrelevant, and that it is only the business of the player. Essentially, live and let live. The idea that there is "right" and "wrong" in how to enjoy your entertainment, and even more so trying to push morality into it, is absurd. But apparently that is very disagreeable for someone like you, seeing as you saw the need to respond to my "outrageous" post, and resurrect our previous argument on the topic. I did not claim it was arbitrarily "offensive" to developers. It shows a lack of respect to them (read - RESPECT) in much the same manner as my altering a painting I own would show a lack of respect to the artist of that painting. Nothing preventing me from doing it... but it would show a lack of respect towards the artist. Whether the artist becomes offended over it depends entirely on them. I did indicate that, if a hack undermines the economics of a company (as the hack you mentioned on the other thread does by circumventing microtransactions), the company may get upset over that practice. Case is point is Minecraft... a company that very much supported modding of their game became upset when servers started charging players for in-game perks that gave certain players real in-game advantages over non-paying ones. They then attempted to modify their EULA and that created a lot more discord and ill will between the company and their modding community.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Sept 6, 2016 22:37:48 GMT
This reminds me of how I entered ME3MP.
I was a damned SP god (in my mind) of all things Mass Effect. Once I got over my disappointment with the ending, and still wanted to play ME, I decided to get into the MP.
Lol not a god. More like a useless bag of dicks. A teabag receptacle.
SP =/= MP
You cannot affect the leaderboard of an SP game by cheating, because..... Oh, there isn't one. Otherwise I would have lost my life to Portal.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2016 23:26:30 GMT
I did indicate that, if a hack undermines the economics of a company (as the hack you mentioned on the other thread does by circumventing microtransactions), the company may get upset over that practice. Case is point is Minecraft... a company that very much supported modding of their game became upset when servers started charging players for in-game perks that gave certain players real in-game advantages over non-paying ones. They then attempted to modify their EULA and that created a lot more discord and ill will between the company and their modding community. Everything is a two-way street, a publisher does something that many players see as greedy and ham-handed - they respond, my suggestion was part of that. Sure, they can try and stomp harder on gamers so that they would shut up and let them monetize the crap out of every single aspect of their game, but that would result in an even stronger backlash. I would have thought that the fact that they went back on their original pre-order scheme (that essentially aimed to make their fans into publicity engines, with the promise of bigger rewards for more pre-orders) due to the backlash they received meant that they were adopting a different approach, and perhaps they actually have - according to sterling it is actually the fault of the Publisher, and considering the track record of Japanese game publishers (square enix among them) I tend to believe it. As a comsumer if you don't pull the rope back in a capitalist economy, you just end up paying through your nose for an inferior product. The company wants to continue and make more money, consumers want better products for cheaper prices, so in the end, this is a negotiation essentially, every side tries to either sweet-talk or intimidate the other into submission, and the market goes on. (usually with the advantage on the side of the corporations, so you really shouldn't feel bad for them) Did I say I feel bad for them? Again, no, I did not. You keep putting words in my mouth... and that, too, is getting rather old. At any rate, as I mentioned this thread is about "cheating" - not about hacking to undermine microtransactions. I have no plans to discuss it any further here and no plans to rejoin your thread on the matter.
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Post by Natashina on Sept 7, 2016 2:46:52 GMT
Okay guys, take a breath. Let's not let the thread devolve into two posters bickering with each other. This is a good subject for a debate, but let's keep it civil please. Please take the side debates to PM. The Dude Abides.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 7, 2016 9:40:21 GMT
If you can't stand the heat, don't go into the kitchen. If quoting your claims causes you such distress, perhaps you should think twice before making them. You can't make sweeping statements and accusations based on anecdotal evidence and then cry foul when someone calls you judgmental. (which is rather mild, considering your attitude) Also, I don't have a problem with the word "cheating". I have a problem with the arrogant claim that modifying or hacking video games is somehow "offensive" towards developers, when neither you nor a developer has any business pushing their noses into how people enjoy the products they pay a full price for and use in compliance to the terms of "Fair Use". All I claimed in this thread was that the question is irrelevant, and that it is only the business of the player. Essentially, live and let live. The idea that there is "right" and "wrong" in how to enjoy your entertainment, and even more so trying to push morality into it, is absurd. But apparently that is very disagreeable for someone like you, seeing as you saw the need to respond to my "outrageous" post, and resurrect our previous argument on the topic. I did not claim it was arbitrarily "offensive" to developers. It shows a lack of respect to them (read - RESPECT) in much the same manner as my altering a painting I own would show a lack of respect to the artist of that painting. Nothing preventing me from doing it... but it would show a lack of respect towards the artist. Whether the artist becomes offended over it depends entirely on them. I did indicate that, if a hack undermines the economics of a company (as the hack you mentioned on the other thread does by circumventing microtransactions), the company may get upset over that practice. Case is point is Minecraft... a company that very much supported modding of their game became upset when servers started charging players for in-game perks that gave certain players real in-game advantages over non-paying ones. They then attempted to modify their EULA and that created a lot more discord and ill will between the company and their modding community. Audiences have showed varying levels of respect to artists over centuries. We don't go and paint over a picture, because we don't like it because it's unique. However, we go and remix music, movies, stories, we boo at bad performance and applaud the good. Personally, if a developer would get butthurt over me skipping or circumventing part of his creation - what do I care? The alternative would be to tell him how that part sucked, but if I violate this imaginary "artistic integrity" no one really needs to get offended. That "integrity" is a mental construct - we don't keep listening to music we don't like - but if I can keep playing a game cutting out the part I don't like, the the artist acually should be glad I'm not downrating the whole thing.
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Post by Elfen Lied on Sept 7, 2016 11:12:52 GMT
Mostly I'm ambivalent if someone decides to "cheat" in their campaign. Still, it's the developers game, if they wish to patch exploits through patches that's their choice, just as it's the customers choice whether they apply the patch. Not really a customers choice anymore, considering that now your games are patched automatically as soon as you start them with your internet connection active. And using Origins or Steam in offline mod can't be considered a workaround. There is still GOG that provides patches for manual download/install but they always offer the latest patch, so, unless you bought the game on day 1 and downloaded a copy of every patch as soon as they went out you still won't be able to choose the version of the game that you want to play.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2016 14:20:03 GMT
I did not claim it was arbitrarily "offensive" to developers. It shows a lack of respect to them (read - RESPECT) in much the same manner as my altering a painting I own would show a lack of respect to the artist of that painting. Nothing preventing me from doing it... but it would show a lack of respect towards the artist. Whether the artist becomes offended over it depends entirely on them. I did indicate that, if a hack undermines the economics of a company (as the hack you mentioned on the other thread does by circumventing microtransactions), the company may get upset over that practice. Case is point is Minecraft... a company that very much supported modding of their game became upset when servers started charging players for in-game perks that gave certain players real in-game advantages over non-paying ones. They then attempted to modify their EULA and that created a lot more discord and ill will between the company and their modding community. Audiences have showed varying levels of respect to artists over centuries. We don't go and paint over a picture, because we don't like it because it's unique. However, we go and remix music, movies, stories, we boo at bad performance and applaud the good. Personally, if a developer would get butthurt over me skipping or circumventing part of his creation - what do I care? The alternative would be to tell him how that part sucked, but if I violate this imaginary "artistic integrity" no one really needs to get offended. That "integrity" is a mental construct - we don't keep listening to music we don't like - but if I can keep playing a game cutting out the part I don't like, the the artist acually should be glad I'm not downrating the whole thing. Agreed, people show other people varying levels of disrespect. It IS still showing disrespect... and that's all I was indicating on the other thread. Personally, I feel that game developers deserve a little more respect than they get around here. Despite all the negative comments about the ME Trilogy, there are many of us to continually replay it and, therefore, obviously enjoy it (and some of us even replay it without hacking it - perhaps we're foolish, but I don't think so.) From their, however, artists also have a "right" to their personal reactions... some do get "butthurt" when they see their creations hacked. Some get "butthurt" more easily than others... they are HUMAN afterall. There was some "hurt" in the eyes of the one developer in a video I saw on the old BSN describing how people were hacking the games in order to gang up on players and "rape" them inside the game (I don't think any artist wants to see their creation used to hurt someone else.) There was "hurt" in Flynn's eyes when he was telling us the the ME3 ending fiasco caused him to need therapy. There are different levels and different intents to "hacking" as well. On the other thread we were talking about a hack being used to specifically circumvent microtransactions. Now, I clearly stated that I do not support microtransactions... but I also feel that, when a hack undermines a source of revenue for the gaming company, that company may (read MAY) be more likely to get upset about it than a hack to just avoid, say, planet scanning. The music industry did come down on Napster several years ago... although they eventually adapted their delivery system (i.e. found a way to make money off of downloaded music... essentially microtransactions.) I don't feel that what I was saying on the other thread was too radical or too absurd that people should have gotten so upset about it. I don't think it's all that out of line to ask people to show some respect now and then.
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Post by Elfen Lied on Sept 7, 2016 15:16:19 GMT
The main difference among games and any other artistic creation is that games are the only ones that require an active role from the final user. You are not supposed to "interact" with a picture, a book, a song, a movie.. you just watch/read/listen to them. Games are different because the player is an actual element of the creation, and not just a passive observer, therefore I suppose that it's natural that sometimes he takes the chance to accomodate the product according to his needs. To what degree he should do it, well, that's another matter and I suppose that nobody has the right answer.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 7, 2016 15:33:50 GMT
Audiences have showed varying levels of respect to artists over centuries. We don't go and paint over a picture, because we don't like it because it's unique. However, we go and remix music, movies, stories, we boo at bad performance and applaud the good. Personally, if a developer would get butthurt over me skipping or circumventing part of his creation - what do I care? The alternative would be to tell him how that part sucked, but if I violate this imaginary "artistic integrity" no one really needs to get offended. That "integrity" is a mental construct - we don't keep listening to music we don't like - but if I can keep playing a game cutting out the part I don't like, the the artist acually should be glad I'm not downrating the whole thing. Agreed, people show other people varying levels of disrespect. It IS still showing disrespect... and that's all I was indicating on the other thread. Personally, I feel that game developers deserve a little more respect than they get around here. Despite all the negative comments about the ME Trilogy, there are many of us to continually replay it and, therefore, obviously enjoy it (and some of us even replay it without hacking it - perhaps we're foolish, but I don't think so.) From their, however, artists also have a "right" to their personal reactions... some do get "butthurt" when they see their creations hacked. Some get "butthurt" more easily than others... they are HUMAN afterall. There was some "hurt" in the eyes of the one developer in a video I saw on the old BSN describing how people were hacking the games in order to gang up on players and "rape" them inside the game (I don't think any artist wants to see their creation used to hurt someone else.) There was "hurt" in Flynn's eyes when he was telling us the the ME3 ending fiasco caused him to need therapy. There are different levels and different intents to "hacking" as well. On the other thread we were talking about a hack being used to specifically circumvent microtransactions. Now, I clearly stated that I do not support microtransactions... but I also feel that, when a hack undermines a source of revenue for the gaming company, that company may (read MAY) be more likely to get upset about it than a hack to just avoid, say, planet scanning. The music industry did come down on Napster several years ago... although they eventually adapted their delivery system (i.e. found a way to make money off of downloaded music... essentially microtransactions.) I don't feel that what I was saying on the other thread was too radical or too absurd that people should have gotten so upset about it. I don't think it's all that out of line to ask people to show some respect now and then. I recall a certain lesson at school where the religion teacher would take a certain scene from Brecht's "Mother Courage" and interpret it through some kind of religious stand point - except that particular scene wasn't really meant to be interpreted that way. I guess she wanted to hint that being religious doesn't equal praying but can also mean practical stuff, but she didn't really transport that. If a creation is out there you lose a bit of control over what recipients do with it and in the age of internet this happens so much faster. Things have definitely become more complicated with stuff like microtransactions. My take is how it is implemented. If we're talking about hacking access into e.g. DLC content then I deem it clearly piracy. If it's in-game (SP) money they sell - well, there goes their fabulous idea of generating revenue - I'm certainly not paying money to cheat, because that's what it is: Selling a cheat for money. It's also strange to me why a mechanic would be rigged in a way to incite monetization. If it is inherently annoying, it shouldn't be in the game for a start. It's true that a "game" should be a "whole" experience in itself. Concurrent methods to slice up games into episodes leave me baffled. And yes, it's true that cheating breaks that "integrity" - but when I think the rest is whole (enjoyable, immersive) enough, it can go a step to piece it together to a satisfying experience. Let's say there is e.g. an RTS I enjoy somewhat. But the speed is too high - units die too fast I feel and all the animations seem like a waste - they happen so fast. Maybe I want fewer units slugging it out longer - so I tweak health, damage, DR etc. There is a cap on certain units, but I like to field more of them? I try to remove it. Sure it's rules - but I just create some new rules, so I can enjoy it better. Only talking SP here. MP requires rules. And these in general should be left to a third party who watches it - unless all participants agree to another ruleset.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2016 15:36:47 GMT
The main difference among games and any other artistic creation is that games are the only ones that require an active role from the final user. You are not supposed to "interact" with a picture, a book, a song, a movie.. you just watch/listen to them. Games are different beacuse the player is an actual element of the creation, and not just a passive observer, therefore I suppose that it's natural that sometimes he takes the chance to accomodate the product according to his needs. To what degree he should do it, well, that's another matter and I suppose that nobody has the right answer. I agree with that assessment. The interactive nature of games certainly adds to the complexity of this issue.
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Post by degs29 on Sept 7, 2016 16:39:57 GMT
I agree with this. Though, you shouldn't be able to cheat and still get achievements. I find the fact that some people actually care about those arbitrary (and worthless) mile-stones to be mind-boggling. Well, you could consider Guinness World Records to be arbitrary too. Or any representation of achievement. The point is, a lot of people find worth in them. Strangely enough, I'm not one of them when it comes to game achievements. The only ones I pick up are whatever ones I get going about my normal gaming. But still, I know that many find them important, which is why I'm arguing the point.
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