Could the Jaardan be an AI?

canuckgamer
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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 25, 2017 20:56:37 GMT FluffyCannibal, Rhidor, and 1 more like this

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Post by canuckgamer on Apr 25, 2017 20:56:37 GMT

So far the predominant view is that the remanent are in fact the mechanical servents of a powerful race that left Heleus. What if the Remanent are the Jardaan. On Habitat 7 when Alec Ryder was interacting with the planetary processor was the first time I wondered if we were dealing with an advanced AI. The ME universe has explored the idea of Artifical intellifence at length, often the consequences of sentient races creating AI.

What if the Jaardan flip this on its head. What if it is a highly advanced, sentient artifical intelligence that has started to toy with the idea of creating life. Not enslaving it, not dominating it, but creating it. Taking a lifeless sector like Heleus and creating life. What if the Scourge aliens are a failed experiement seeking to destroy their creator OR are the original creator trying to stop their creation.

This idea of AI is a critical and underlying theme and I could see Bioware flipping the debate on its head.

Thoughts?

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 25, 2017 21:07:51 GMT

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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2017 21:07:51 GMT

Andromeda is already putting things on its head, with Angara being created by the AI/Remnant. I distinctively feel that Scourge is an inverse of Shepard's destroying the Reapers, i.e. someone saw Remnant and Angara population as Reapers.

The Hostile AI also gives you a clue calling "this" Angara NOT the Angara that she is loyal to. She can be of Jaardan, an intermediary.

I wonder if Angara and Remnant story is a result of the suggestion that the most potentially successful way to explore space is to build machines that are capable of self-repair, resource harvesting and self-propagation, and building Angara species recreates the Jaarden that are many galaxies away and way in the unreachable past sending their droids and DNA cocktail to travel to Andromeda (and other Galaxies) in a different way than the Andromeda Initiative.

With the sabotage/dissent being carried along, just like it arrived on the board of Nexus with the Andromeda Initiative.

If I am not making any sense or missing lore points, I apologize.

Last Edit: Apr 25, 2017 21:10:15 GMT by Deleted

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 25, 2017 21:52:43 GMT

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Post by Exile Isan on Apr 25, 2017 21:52:43 GMT

This would be an awesome idea, but I don't think it will happen. There are several hints that the Angara were created in the image of their creators. Avela mentions that several of the angaran artifacts that you find look angaran but also looks strange. Which lead me to believe they weren't angaran at all, but the jardaan.

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 25, 2017 22:04:27 GMT

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Post by timebean on Apr 25, 2017 22:04:27 GMT

Apr 25, 2017 20:56:37 GMT canuckgamer said:

So far the predominant view is that the remanent are in fact the mechanical servents of a powerful race that left Heleus. What if the Remanent are the Jardaan. On Habitat 7 when Alec Ryder was interacting with the planetary processor was the first time I wondered if we were dealing with an advanced AI. The ME universe has explored the idea of Artifical intellifence at length, often the consequences of sentient races creating AI.

What if the Jaardan flip this on its head. What if it is a highly advanced, sentient artifical intelligence that has started to toy with the idea of creating life. Not enslaving it, not dominating it, but creating it. Taking a lifeless sector like Heleus and creating life. What if the Scourge aliens are a failed experiement seeking to destroy their creator OR are the original creator trying to stop their creation.

This idea of AI is a critical and underlying theme and I could see Bioware flipping the debate on its head.

Thoughts?

That has been my belief throughout. Highly advanced AI either creating life to either learn about it scientifically (ie, how to be 'alive', what it means, how life evolves, what variables are important, etc), or create living beings to transfer their conscious into (ie, the Angara are basically organic containers created to house the AI consciousness). The whole "transfer of consciousness" is hinted at in one of the missions, foreshadowed by the Sam/pathfinder connection, and is implied by the whole "reincarnation" religious beliefs of the Angara.

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 26, 2017 0:43:36 GMT

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Post by Psychedelic on Apr 26, 2017 0:43:36 GMT

Apr 25, 2017 22:04:27 GMT timebean said:

Apr 25, 2017 20:56:37 GMT canuckgamer said:

So far the predominant view is that the remanent are in fact the mechanical servents of a powerful race that left Heleus. What if the Remanent are the Jardaan. On Habitat 7 when Alec Ryder was interacting with the planetary processor was the first time I wondered if we were dealing with an advanced AI. The ME universe has explored the idea of Artifical intellifence at length, often the consequences of sentient races creating AI.

What if the Jaardan flip this on its head. What if it is a highly advanced, sentient artifical intelligence that has started to toy with the idea of creating life. Not enslaving it, not dominating it, but creating it. Taking a lifeless sector like Heleus and creating life. What if the Scourge aliens are a failed experiement seeking to destroy their creator OR are the original creator trying to stop their creation.

This idea of AI is a critical and underlying theme and I could see Bioware flipping the debate on its head.

Thoughts?

That has been my belief throughout. Highly advanced AI either creating life to either learn about it scientifically (ie, how to be 'alive', what it means, how life evolves, what variables are important, etc), or create living beings to transfer their conscious into (ie, the Angara are basically organic containers created to house the AI consciousness). The whole "transfer of consciousness" is hinted at in one of the missions, foreshadowed by the Sam/pathfinder connection, and is implied by the whole "reincarnation" religious beliefs of the Angara.

I like the general idea, it is in line with ME's tendency to AI/organic conflicts and could provide a new perspective, but I really can't see what the Jardaan's motivation might be if they were an AI. Scientific curiosity, good old hybris just to show they can, or maybe recreating their own creators with the Angaran race? Wouldn't surprise me if the original had met an unfortunate end thanks to the Jardaan AI, if the latter should be the case.

But all that doesn't explain the Angara's apparent genetic memory, which indeed implies they might be the Jardaan, or what's left of them, but doesn't support the AI!Jardaan theory. Why should a highly advanced, incorporeal AI want organic bodies as some kind of vessel for their consciousness. To quote Drack:"You are meat. You spoil.".

Should the Jardaan really turn out to be an AI race, Bioware better provides a good explanation for that, so far I can't see one.

Last Edit: Apr 26, 2017 0:44:21 GMT by Psychedelic

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 26, 2017 1:27:44 GMT Psychedelic likes this

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Post by timebean on Apr 26, 2017 1:27:44 GMT

Apr 26, 2017 0:43:36 GMT Psychedelic said:

Apr 25, 2017 22:04:27 GMT timebean said:

That has been my belief throughout. Highly advanced AI either creating life to either learn about it scientifically (ie, how to be 'alive', what it means, how life evolves, what variables are important, etc), or create living beings to transfer their conscious into (ie, the Angara are basically organic containers created to house the AI consciousness). The whole "transfer of consciousness" is hinted at in one of the missions, foreshadowed by the Sam/pathfinder connection, and is implied by the whole "reincarnation" religious beliefs of the Angara.

I like the general idea, it is in line with ME's tendency to AI/organic conflicts and could provide a new perspective, but I really can't see what the Jardaan's motivation might be if they were an AI. Scientific curiosity, good old hybris just to show they can, or maybe recreating their own creators with the Angaran race? Wouldn't surprise me if the original had met an unfortunate end thanks to the Jardaan AI, if the latter should be the case.

But all that doesn't explain the Angara's apparent genetic memory, which indeed implies they might be the Jardaan, or what's left of them, but doesn't support the AI!Jardaan theory. Why should a highly advanced, incorporeal AI want organic bodies as some kind of vessel for their consciousness. To quote Drack:"You are meat. You spoil.".

Should the Jardaan really turn out to be an AI race, Bioware better provides a good explanation for that, so far I can't see one.

Well, this is Bioware. I am sure they could come up with a ham-fisted reason

But one can ponder. What does an organic have that a synthetic does not? What does Sam get outta of the relationship with the Pathfinder? Why did Pinocchio want to become a real boy? What made Wall-E so damned adorable? What did Legion get when he became truly alive?

There are alot of religious themes in the this version of ME (the Kett exhultation process, Suvi's religious views...which seem to come outta nowhere...and the idea of reincarnation among the angara). I wonder if the grand teraforming and all that life-building and organic biomanipulation, etc...perhaps they were the Jaardan's way to search for a soul?

Or, maybe they had a different question...and the answer is 42.

Last Edit: Apr 26, 2017 1:33:03 GMT by timebean

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 26, 2017 1:54:53 GMT

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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 26, 2017 1:54:53 GMT

I don't think the Jardaan are the Remnant. It seems too unlikely that they would have created a sentient species when they're just mindless bots who scan stuff constantly. I think the Remnant are co-creations of the Jardaan. Evidence suggests that, at the very least, the Jardaan look similar to the Angarans. Or, in my theory, they're probably the same race.

The only way around this is if the Remnant somehow had a virus inflicted on them that reduced their intelligence. I suppose removing such a virus could then allow them to recover.

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 26, 2017 5:18:14 GMT dmc1001 and steppinrazor like this

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Post by qwib on Apr 26, 2017 5:18:14 GMT

Or the Jardaan are like the Zha'til;

The zha'til were a synthetic race that existed at the time of the Protheans. They originated when a race known as the zha implanted themselves with symbiotic AI technology to enhance their intelligence in order to survive as their homeworld became inhospitable.

Maybe the Jardaan are Angara together with the Remnants. But their connection was destroyed by the Jheln and the detruction of their connection left both parts of the Jardaan race traumatized.

Ofc, I have no proof for that.

Last Edit: Apr 26, 2017 5:18:27 GMT by qwib

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 26, 2017 13:40:02 GMT FluffyCannibal likes this

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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 13:40:02 GMT

Maybe the Jardaan were created by the original Angara, then wiped them out, felt bad about it and tried to bring their creators back from the dead.

This would unfortunately prove glowboy right to some extent.

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 26, 2017 13:54:12 GMT

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Post by LogicGunn on Apr 26, 2017 13:54:12 GMT

I had a thought during the game that the Angara are a genetically modified version of the Jaardan. No idea why.

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 26, 2017 15:44:22 GMT timebean likes this

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Post by kelarqshah on Apr 26, 2017 15:44:22 GMT

I suppose the team still has to keep the ending of ME3 and that vision intact, however distasteful that might be.

If organic life in the Milky Way always creates AI which then rises up to destroy them, and the Leviathans observed this cycle happening again and again, surely a similar thing must hold true for other galaxies like Andromeda? Maybe the Jaardan were a race of AIs who wiped out all organic life, but realised their own evolution had become limited, and began creating life in the hopes that one day that life would achieve synthesis?

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 26, 2017 17:53:19 GMT dmc1001 likes this

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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 17:53:19 GMT

Apr 25, 2017 21:52:43 GMT Exile Isan said:

This would be an awesome idea, but I don't think it will happen. There are several hints that the Angara were created in the image of their creators. Avela mentions that several of the angaran artifacts that you find look angaran but also looks strange. Which lead me to believe they weren't angaran at all, but the jardaan.

So bioware is gonna get away with creating 3 new species (Kett, Angara, Jardaan) and have them all look the same?

im onto you bioware

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 26, 2017 18:17:42 GMT Qui-Gon GlenN7 and timebean like this

Quote

Post by Iakus on Apr 26, 2017 18:17:42 GMT

Apr 25, 2017 22:04:27 GMT timebean said:

Apr 25, 2017 20:56:37 GMT canuckgamer said:

So far the predominant view is that the remanent are in fact the mechanical servents of a powerful race that left Heleus. What if the Remanent are the Jardaan. On Habitat 7 when Alec Ryder was interacting with the planetary processor was the first time I wondered if we were dealing with an advanced AI. The ME universe has explored the idea of Artifical intellifence at length, often the consequences of sentient races creating AI.

What if the Jaardan flip this on its head. What if it is a highly advanced, sentient artifical intelligence that has started to toy with the idea of creating life. Not enslaving it, not dominating it, but creating it. Taking a lifeless sector like Heleus and creating life. What if the Scourge aliens are a failed experiement seeking to destroy their creator OR are the original creator trying to stop their creation.

This idea of AI is a critical and underlying theme and I could see Bioware flipping the debate on its head.

Thoughts?

That has been my belief throughout. Highly advanced AI either creating life to either learn about it scientifically (ie, how to be 'alive', what it means, how life evolves, what variables are important, etc), or create living beings to transfer their conscious into (ie, the Angara are basically organic containers created to house the AI consciousness). The whole "transfer of consciousness" is hinted at in one of the missions, foreshadowed by the Sam/pathfinder connection, and is implied by the whole "reincarnation" religious beliefs of the Angara.

Synthetic race created organic servants, who turned on them.

It was inevitable

You should never preach harder than you entertain

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 26, 2017 18:45:59 GMT

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Post by kenshen19 on Apr 26, 2017 18:45:59 GMT

So an advanced organic race created an AI that would end up wiping them out but afterwards the AI would "feel" some kind of guilt to the point they would re-create the organic race? Sorry I don't buy that and I really hope that isn't the direction the story is heading. Now if the Jardaan turn out to be an even more advanced organic race that came and defeated the AI and then re-created the lost organics I could believe that more however that raises another question that what would be even stronger than a race that was capable of terraforming a planet on the scale we see? This seems to be getting even more out of control than the reapers were.

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 26, 2017 19:52:37 GMT

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Post by timebean on Apr 26, 2017 19:52:37 GMT

Apr 26, 2017 18:17:42 GMT Iakus said:

Apr 25, 2017 22:04:27 GMT timebean said:

That has been my belief throughout. Highly advanced AI either creating life to either learn about it scientifically (ie, how to be 'alive', what it means, how life evolves, what variables are important, etc), or create living beings to transfer their conscious into (ie, the Angara are basically organic containers created to house the AI consciousness). The whole "transfer of consciousness" is hinted at in one of the missions, foreshadowed by the Sam/pathfinder connection, and is implied by the whole "reincarnation" religious beliefs of the Angara.

Synthetic race created organic servants, who turned on them.

It was inevitable

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 26, 2017 21:20:00 GMT

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Post by Iakus on Apr 26, 2017 21:20:00 GMT

Apr 26, 2017 18:45:59 GMT kenshen19 said:

So an advanced organic race created an AI that would end up wiping them out but afterwards the AI would "feel" some kind of guilt to the point they would re-create the organic race? Sorry I don't buy that and I really hope that isn't the direction the story is heading. Now if the Jardaan turn out to be an even more advanced organic race that came and defeated the AI and then re-created the lost organics I could believe that more however that raises another question that what would be even stronger than a race that was capable of terraforming a planet on the scale we see? This seems to be getting even more out of control than the reapers were.

You should never preach harder than you entertain

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 26, 2017 21:21:44 GMT

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Post by kenshen19 on Apr 26, 2017 21:21:44 GMT

Apr 26, 2017 21:20:00 GMT Iakus said:

Apr 26, 2017 18:45:59 GMT kenshen19 said:

So an advanced organic race created an AI that would end up wiping them out but afterwards the AI would "feel" some kind of guilt to the point they would re-create the organic race? Sorry I don't buy that and I really hope that isn't the direction the story is heading. Now if the Jardaan turn out to be an even more advanced organic race that came and defeated the AI and then re-created the lost organics I could believe that more however that raises another question that what would be even stronger than a race that was capable of terraforming a planet on the scale we see? This seems to be getting even more out of control than the reapers were.

I have no clue who that is suppose to be so sorry joke was lost on me.

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 26, 2017 21:26:49 GMT

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Post by Iakus on Apr 26, 2017 21:26:49 GMT

Something stronger than a race capable of terraforming a planet on MEA's scale.

This guy is capable of reducing an entire planet to energy, and then devouring said energy

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 27, 2017 15:31:32 GMT Psychevore likes this

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Post by Exile Isan on Apr 27, 2017 15:31:32 GMT

This would be cool if the Jardaan had been like the geth where they had risen up against their creators and instead of their creators fleeing like the quarians did, they wiped them out completely only to realize what they had done. So they try to recreate them, and created the angara we meet in game. But there was faction of the Jardaan that didn't like this idea and they became "The Opposition". Of course this would be full of holes concerning the Scourge, etc. I mean why would a faction of AI release something like the Scourge which would harm them as well?

The Jardann being AI is a nice idea though.

Last Edit: Apr 27, 2017 15:32:14 GMT by Exile Isan

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 28, 2017 0:35:51 GMT

Quote

Post by gplayer on Apr 28, 2017 0:35:51 GMT

From what we have seen of remnant structures, there are a few things we can infer about the Jaardan:
1- The considered Sudoku to be an effective method of obscuring command codes
2- They had powerful hind legs, suitable for jumping between pillars and platforms like Jack rabbits.
3- They had no need for offices or desks.
4- They had 3 fingers per hand. No basis for this except that every alien race in the ME universe has 3 fingers.

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 28, 2017 10:19:36 GMT steppinrazor likes this

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Post by FluffyCannibal on Apr 28, 2017 10:19:36 GMT

Apr 28, 2017 0:35:51 GMT gplayer said:

From what we have seen of remnant structures, there are a few things we can infer about the Jaardan:
1- The considered Sudoku to be an effective method of obscuring command codes
2- They had powerful hind legs, suitable for jumping between pillars and platforms like Jack rabbits.
3- They had no need for offices or desks.
4- They had 3 fingers per hand. No basis for this except that every alien race in the ME universe has 3 fingers.

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 28, 2017 10:22:30 GMT

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Post by Psychevore on Apr 28, 2017 10:22:30 GMT

I'm putting my bets on the Jardaan being both: Synthetic organic constructs.

That, or the remaining species of a galactic/cluster AI vs AI war after all organic life had been wiped out, the Jardaan being the victors and 'growing a conscience', and therefore reseeding the galaxy/cluster.

I'd really, really love the latter to be honest.

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 28, 2017 10:23:31 GMT

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Post by Psychevore on Apr 28, 2017 10:23:31 GMT

Apr 27, 2017 15:31:32 GMT Exile Isan said:

This would be cool if the Jardaan had been like the geth where they had risen up against their creators and instead of their creators fleeing like the quarians did, they wiped them out completely only to realize what they had done. So they try to recreate them, and created the angara we meet in game. But there was faction of the Jardaan that didn't like this idea and they became "The Opposition". Of course this would be full of holes concerning the Scourge, etc. I mean why would a faction of AI release something like the Scourge which would harm them as well?

The Jardann being AI is a nice idea though.

Oh, yes, this, what she said.

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 28, 2017 10:26:53 GMT

Quote

Post by Psychevore on Apr 28, 2017 10:26:53 GMT

Apr 26, 2017 21:20:00 GMT Iakus said:

Apr 26, 2017 18:45:59 GMT kenshen19 said:

So an advanced organic race created an AI that would end up wiping them out but afterwards the AI would "feel" some kind of guilt to the point they would re-create the organic race? Sorry I don't buy that and I really hope that isn't the direction the story is heading. Now if the Jardaan turn out to be an even more advanced organic race that came and defeated the AI and then re-created the lost organics I could believe that more however that raises another question that what would be even stronger than a race that was capable of terraforming a planet on the scale we see? This seems to be getting even more out of control than the reapers were.

Somebody somewhere should make a decent game with that dude.

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Could the Jaardan be an AI? Apr 28, 2017 19:26:28 GMT

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Post by docklenator on Apr 28, 2017 19:26:28 GMT

I think that all was left of the Jardaan are the remnant, that the Jardaan died/were killed off by "the opposition" and that the "Angara" that were created are a result of some contingency plan for the Jardaan to save their race.

1. Angara have genetic memory, and Jaal finds Meridian to be familiar.

2. The AI is of "Angaran" design, but refutes current Angara (and Angaran society shuns the idea of AI)

3. Jaal speaks of Voeld being a densely populated planet pre-scourge, but there's no records. The only tie Angara have to the pre-scourge days are the highly intelligent whales beneath the ice on Voeld.

So my theory is this:

1. Jardaan die

2. Remnant began teraforming and creating Angara (Jardan)

3. Process is interrupted with Meridian being attacked by the scourge, spreading the scourge instantly through the cluster.

Meridian breaks contact and flees, leaving current Angara with no knowledge of their "creators" (ancestors).

The flaws with this:

Codex states that Jardaan began seeding Heleus in 1600, which would mean they possibly migrated to Heleus to rebirth?

This also means the Jardaan, their technology and Angara were all present when the Initiative scanned.

Also means that Jardaan/and/or Remnant and Angara shared a period of nearly 800 years coexisting before the scourge hit in 2400(and some change)

That or the whales on Voeld are all that's left of the Jardaan and they're hiding.

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