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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 1:52:27 GMT
The devs said it would take a lot of work for lighter skin tone? That doesn't sound quite right, does it? Wasn't there some guy that hated white people that worked at the studio? I assumed the lack of lighter skin tones was related to that somehow, but wasn't sure. Yeap, they said it wasn't a simple "fix" and justified saying something about the face scans not working with paler skin tones. I mean... If true then that sounds like further mediocre game development with that limitation to me...
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 29, 2017 1:53:10 GMT
Yeah, and according to the devs this would require a lot of work because ~face scans~ Whenever this that or the other "tweak" requires "lots of work" it usually comes down to stuff like "we have priorities and plans and we need to reschedule etc.". A lot of bugs and other things in the game right now could be fixed within hours if need be. They just need to assign the proper staff when there is time for it but obvs. they take one thing at a time and I'm guessing they'll make one big fat patch for improvements to the CC that they're working on on a branch in whatever github-esque app they use to develop. Also remember, devs are paid by the hour. Once a product is out you usually move on to the next project which would be DLC and then after that a new project and then I assume they've smaller pockets of programmers and designers etc. working on the actual post-launch software support where they touch up the game. Now that they've announced damage relief it might be that a much bigger chunk of the staff works on improving the released product but as I said I expect fixes to ship in batches when they're actually reworking the content beyond mere "fixing". They'll add CC features, better "digital acting" like we saw some of in 1.05 and reworked dialogue for Hainley and Gil and more.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 2:02:13 GMT
Yeah, and according to the devs this would require a lot of work because ~face scans~ Whenever this that or the other "tweak" requires "lots of work" it usually comes down to stuff like "we have priorities and plans and we need to reschedule etc.". A lot of bugs and other things in the game right now could be fixed within hours if need be. They just need to assign the proper staff when there is time for it but obvs. they take one thing at a time and I'm guessing they'll make one big fat patch for improvements to the CC that they're working on on a branch in whatever github-esque app they use to develop. Also remember, devs are paid by the hour. Once a product is out you usually move on to the next project which would be DLC and then after that a new project and then I assume they've smaller pockets of programmers and designers etc. working on the actual post-launch software support where they touch up the game. Now that they've announced damage relief it might be that a much bigger chunk of the staff works on improving the released product but as I said I expect fixes to ship in batches when they're actually reworking the content beyond mere "fixing". They'll add CC features, better "digital acting" like we saw some of in 1.05 and reworked dialogue for Hainley and Gil and more. Have the devs ever revealed a tentative plan for when they'll try to wrap up beta testing and release the final game?
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Post by varicite on Apr 29, 2017 2:08:02 GMT
Did they ever give a reason for only having one white preset? Means every white man Ryder looks near identical. Tad silly. Have you not seen the Asari in this game? Clearly, this is just what Bioware thinks races are like; carbon copies of each other.
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 29, 2017 2:08:12 GMT
Whenever this that or the other "tweak" requires "lots of work" it usually comes down to stuff like "we have priorities and plans and we need to reschedule etc.". A lot of bugs and other things in the game right now could be fixed within hours if need be. They just need to assign the proper staff when there is time for it but obvs. they take one thing at a time and I'm guessing they'll make one big fat patch for improvements to the CC that they're working on on a branch in whatever github-esque app they use to develop. Also remember, devs are paid by the hour. Once a product is out you usually move on to the next project which would be DLC and then after that a new project and then I assume they've smaller pockets of programmers and designers etc. working on the actual post-launch software support where they touch up the game. Now that they've announced damage relief it might be that a much bigger chunk of the staff works on improving the released product but as I said I expect fixes to ship in batches when they're actually reworking the content beyond mere "fixing". They'll add CC features, better "digital acting" like we saw some of in 1.05 and reworked dialogue for Hainley and Gil and more. /shrug Fixing things months down the road is better than nothing I suppose. Doesn't change the fact that they intentionally left these things out to begin with and really having those fixes in June or July doesn't do me much good in March/April when I am actually making characters and playing the game. Its all a moot point now I suppose. :contempt:
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 29, 2017 2:12:24 GMT
I think it's important to remember how the game shipped and consider that as a baseline for the intended result minus the glitches. You're probably not going to see this game being renovated with a magic paint brush over the next couple of months. It'll just be more polish, addressing the most critiqued moments with extra animationwork, additions to CC and then DLC and other QoL improvements that'll make the game feel more whole in a year's time.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Apr 29, 2017 2:15:29 GMT
The devs said it would take a lot of work for lighter skin tone? That doesn't sound quite right, does it? Wasn't there some guy that hated white people that worked at the studio? I assumed the lack of lighter skin tones was related to that somehow, but wasn't sure. Manveer Heir? He was a gameplay designer or something. Don't think he had any say in decisions like that. I really want to blame him. Take a look at any video about Bioware and Manveer Heir in the same sentence.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Apr 29, 2017 2:18:47 GMT
Manveer Heir? He was a gameplay designer or something. Don't think he had any say in decisions like that. Well someone had a say in it. You don't just 'forget' to put white skin tone options into the CC. That said, while a mod is nice and all I really don't want to have to bother installing 3rd party programs and editing game files just to have something so basic in the game. Exactly. We don't want another Bethesda style of laziness. "Can we get the scripts done on this quest before deadline?" "No, sir." "Screw it. Let the modders handle it. Let's hit Cabo, yo!!!"
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 29, 2017 11:06:31 GMT
Manveer Heir? He was a gameplay designer or something. Don't think he had any say in decisions like that. I really want to blame him. Take a look at any video about Bioware and Manveer Heir in the same sentence. I think it's more of a corporate thing really. Ever since Disney used Frozen as LGBT propaganda they have incentivized all other timid businesses to start featuring minorities as a quota and EA has been an advocate too. Just look at Battlefield 1 or Battlefront 2's trailers or covers. PoC are the new "generic white straight male" protagonists in the market. Also, Manveer was a senior designer. It's way above his paygrade to decide what facial scans the outsourcing or animation team used. It didn't stop him from chiming in or forcing his agenda down people's throats inside the company though but I have a feeling he actually kept it professional whilist working. Although it is a little conspicuous with the tweets he made thanking Aaryn Flynn and Yanick Roy for letting him talk publically about his stance on diversity. Besides, Flynn is a boyscout feminist. His white people hate strike me more as a sort of provocateur thing even if he might mean it too, but you gotta be careful who you endorse when they froth at the mouth like that. I like diversity in what people say just as much as I like it in color of skin so I didn't actually mind that he talked about injustice for PoC or bitched about white people, it was more that like a 3rd wave feminist he's one of those pseudo-intellectuals who fixates solely on that one thing he wants to promote and then finds data that supports his agenda and spewing subjective nonsense like "XYZ is because of White Supremacy blabla". Just like Anita Sarkeesian who fed off of controversy like a shill and only ever highlighted narrow sections of cherrypicked video games to check a box in her "how games insult women" rulebook. She all did it for money. Manveer first and foremost makes games because he can and he's studied it (and he's not incompetent) but his reason for making games in the industry seems to have become a game for promoting PoC and once that is the norm he'll probably start shaming white people in his games too.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 29, 2017 11:54:16 GMT
My femShep was white as a corpse...
I live in Germany where I don't see much of the sun during our long dreary winters. So, many of us look like my femShep. While I don't find pale skin particularly attractive and don't need my characters to always be this pale, it should have been an option. There is no excuse for this. It's either incompetence or laziness or an agenda. Doesn't really matter to me which it is. I just want the CC overhauled.
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Post by Geitenneuker on Apr 29, 2017 12:30:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 16:55:00 GMT
I really want to blame him. Take a look at any video about Bioware and Manveer Heir in the same sentence. I think it's more of a corporate thing really. Ever since Disney used Frozen as LGBT propaganda they have incentivized all other timid businesses to start featuring minorities as a quota and EA has been an advocate too. Just look at Battlefield 1 or Battlefront 2's trailers or covers. PoC are the new "generic white straight male" protagonists in the market. Also, Manveer was a senior designer. It's way above his paygrade to decide what facial scans the outsourcing or animation team used. It didn't stop him from chiming in or forcing his agenda down people's throats inside the company though but I have a feeling he actually kept it professional whilist working. Although it is a little conspicuous with the tweets he made thanking Aaryn Flynn and Yanick Roy for letting him talk publically about his stance on diversity. Besides, Flynn is a boyscout feminist. Stupid statement deserves a stupid answer, Link. You could've just asked "Are you trying to rip off potions from every other RPG that ever existed" Intesting phrasing on his part however. Still with the HIOOH at the end, i think he meant it more as a zing moment. What i find a bit weird is that Bioware has always been very liberal and diverse in their cast, but it is only recently it has become an issue for many people. I'll agree that if an agenda hurts the quality of the game/games it is absolutely not for the better. However Andromeda's biggest issues has nothing to do with an agenda. They are fun to nitpick at though, or so it seems.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 17:29:56 GMT
The only agenda that hurt MEA was 'let's make another cash cow ME game where we can milk a bunch of fans and set up for a new series of ME games.' Throwing $40 million at it didn't even help. It's like they don't even realize what made MET great which is great characters, a great starting story, generally good to great writing, and a very immersive universe. Sadly, they tried to copy ME1 hoping to recreate that greatness and it's very clear that they still don't know how to recapture it. What is ironic is that all the pieces are set - this story has even more potential I think than ME1 brought to the table. We have so many pieces about it that are a gold mine that if the writers just put their heart into it, MEA would have been stellar. DLC can I hope make up for some of it, but we still have the crew which at this point feels like a poor man's normandy crew. I just can't believe how they had so much going for them with the different elements of the story and came up with this. But part of it is the crew. I am really astounded by how little I care about any of them. Maybe it is because it is MEA1. I liked my crew in ME1 but I guess I didn't love them as much as in ME3. However, I didn't want Kaiden to die. I didn't want Wrex to die. I really wanted to save Kirrahe once I realized I could. I wanted to kill Ash which for me is probably on par with how I feel about Liam and to a lesser degree PB so they got that right it seems. I had favorites of the crew and of all of them the only one I could do without was Ash. The rest, I found either interesting, amusing, adorable or just outright likable in general. Here, I guess I would pick Vetra, Cora, Jaal and Drack as having the most potential with Drack and Jaal coming closest to it being fully realized.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 17:32:16 GMT
The only agenda that hurt MEA was 'let's make another cash cow ME game where we can milk a bunch of fans and set up for a new series of ME games.' Throwing $40 million at it didn't even help. It's like they don't even realize what made MET great which is great characters, a great starting story, generally good to great writing, and a very immersive universe. Sadly, they tried to copy ME1 hoping to recreate that greatness and it's very clear that they still don't know how to recapture it. What is ironic is that all the pieces are set - this story has even more potential I think than ME1 brought to the table. We have a many pieces that if the writers just put their heart into it, MEA would have been stellar. DLC can I hope make up for some of it, but we still have the crew which at this point feels like a poor man's normandy crew. I just can't believe how they had so much going for them with the different elements of the story and came up with this. But part of it is the crew. I am really astounded by how little I care about any of them. Maybe it is because it is MEA1. I liked my crew in ME1 but I guess I didn't love them as much as in ME3. However, I didn't want Kaiden to die. I didn't want Wrex to die. I really wanted to save Kirrahe once I realized I could. I wanted to kill Ash which for me is probably on par with how I feel about Liam and to a lesser degree PB so they got that right it seems. I found the crew in the original Mass Effect to be kind of dull. There was limited interactions, and no one had any conflict to them, except for Wrex. It is easy to disregard the entire Andromeda crew as lesser, but when you are comparing it to 3 games worth of content it is kind of unfair, but again its not. I mean Dragon Age Inquisition had story issues, but stellar companions and we only knew them for a game. In the end it comes down to the writing and how that writing is presented.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 17:49:40 GMT
The only agenda that hurt MEA was 'let's make another cash cow ME game where we can milk a bunch of fans and set up for a new series of ME games.' Throwing $40 million at it didn't even help. It's like they don't even realize what made MET great which is great characters, a great starting story, generally good to great writing, and a very immersive universe. Sadly, they tried to copy ME1 hoping to recreate that greatness and it's very clear that they still don't know how to recapture it. What is ironic is that all the pieces are set - this story has even more potential I think than ME1 brought to the table. We have a many pieces that if the writers just put their heart into it, MEA would have been stellar. DLC can I hope make up for some of it, but we still have the crew which at this point feels like a poor man's normandy crew. I just can't believe how they had so much going for them with the different elements of the story and came up with this. But part of it is the crew. I am really astounded by how little I care about any of them. Maybe it is because it is MEA1. I liked my crew in ME1 but I guess I didn't love them as much as in ME3. However, I didn't want Kaiden to die. I didn't want Wrex to die. I really wanted to save Kirrahe once I realized I could. I wanted to kill Ash which for me is probably on par with how I feel about Liam and to a lesser degree PB so they got that right it seems. I found the crew in the original Mass Effect to be kind of dull. There was limited interactions, and no one had any conflict to them, except for Wrex. It is easy to disregard the entire Andromeda crew as lesser, but when you are comparing it to 3 games worth of content it is kind of unfair, but again its not. I mean Dragon Age Inquisition had story issues, but stellar companions and we only knew them for a game. In the end it comes down to the writing and how that writing is presented. Yeah that's kind of what I mean. In a way it's not really right to compare it to ME1 as much as I do but even without that comparison, lackluster is lackluster. But there is potential they can mine and I really hope they do. As you say though, they didn't have this issue with DAI. There were a few companions I wasn't nuts about in DAI but they all had distinct and clear personalities. And most of them grew on me. The writing of them was far superior to these.
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Post by rolenka on Apr 29, 2017 19:12:38 GMT
Well someone had a say in it. You don't just 'forget' to put white skin tone options into the CC. That said, while a mod is nice and all I really don't want to have to bother installing 3rd party programs and editing game files just to have something so basic in the game. There is pale skin options in the CC though, not just for every preset, which is unfortunate. Also the whole Alec based on the base skin colour of the preset is silly. I noticed that. My white sisRyder (preset 7 I think, the last one) with a tan and ghost-white default broRyder have Hispanic parents. They did it in DA2, too. It was to fix the "human noble" origin characters in DA1 having white parents no matter what. One of the devs said it was too late for DA1 but they would fix it in future games. Maybe someone should screenshot a minority Ryder with white parents so it gets fixed next time around.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 19:16:46 GMT
There is pale skin options in the CC though, not just for every preset, which is unfortunate. Also the whole Alec based on the base skin colour of the preset is silly. I noticed that. My white sisRyder (preset 7 I think, the last one) with a tan and ghost-white default broRyder have Hispanic parents. They did it in DA2, too. It was to fix the "human noble" origin characters in DA1 having white parents no matter what. One of the devs said it was too late for DA1 but they would fix it in future games. Maybe someone should screenshot a minority Ryder with white parents so it gets fixed next time around. I think Ellen Ryder is from Brazil, and she stays the same regardless of your Ryder. Its Alec who changes. They are aware of it, as far as i know. Its been mentioned here, tweeted to them and there are several youtube videos where its shown. Hopefully its bad coding and it can be fixed.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 29, 2017 19:37:14 GMT
DA2 had the skin color issue as well. I really thought bringing back family resemblance meant they fixed it. How naive of me! It's a real shame that the CC is probably so restrictive so that the Ryder family would look actually related but in the end they couldn't get it working. It sounded good on paper, no doubt.
Bioware focusing on the wrong thing is nothing new. They thought better facial animations in ME3 were more important than keeping Shepard's face the same. They shipped a broken face import on top of it. I remember the online meltdown and cries for boycott vividly. The game generated outrage not just because of the ending. People seem to forget this. It's baffling how Bioware were apparently surprised that people were so invested into their Shepard's looks... So I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't anticipate people to have an issue with MEA's poor CC.
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Post by vonuber on Apr 29, 2017 19:48:50 GMT
Oh God don't remind me of the ME3 face import.
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Post by rolenka on Apr 29, 2017 20:00:11 GMT
DA2 had the skin color issue as well. I really thought bringing back family resemblance meant they fixed it. How naive of me! It's a real shame that the CC is probably so restrictive so that the Ryder family would look actually related but in the end they couldn't get it working. It sounded good on paper, no doubt. Bioware focusing on the wrong thing is nothing new. They thought better facial animations in ME3 were more important than keeping Shepard's face the same. They shipped a broken face import on top of it. I remember the online meltdown and cries for boycott vividly. The game generated outrage not just because of the ending. People seem to forget this. It's baffling how Bioware were apparently surprised that people were so invested into their Shepard's looks... So I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't anticipate people to have an issue with MEA's poor CC. Oh God don't remind me of the ME3 face import. As I recall, ME3's import problem was one slider was defaulting to 0. The kind of thing that should have been apparent had they tested it once or twice, but that was it.
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Post by Laughing_Crow on Apr 29, 2017 20:01:25 GMT
I don't think it's directly a texture problem, I suspect it could be due to two things.
The way the lighting works in the game. Or how they've linked together parents and siblings so they are similar - great idea in theory, probably a nightmare to accomplish, given that some of them don't work well - Head 9 if I recall.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 29, 2017 20:28:36 GMT
I think it's more of a corporate thing really. Ever since Disney used Frozen as LGBT propaganda they have incentivized all other timid businesses to start featuring minorities as a quota and EA has been an advocate too. Just look at Battlefield 1 or Battlefront 2's trailers or covers. PoC are the new "generic white straight male" protagonists in the market. Also, Manveer was a senior designer. It's way above his paygrade to decide what facial scans the outsourcing or animation team used. It didn't stop him from chiming in or forcing his agenda down people's throats inside the company though but I have a feeling he actually kept it professional whilist working. Although it is a little conspicuous with the tweets he made thanking Aaryn Flynn and Yanick Roy for letting him talk publically about his stance on diversity. Besides, Flynn is a boyscout feminist. Stupid statement deserves a stupid answer, Link. You could've just asked "Are you trying to rip off potions from every other RPG that ever existed" Intesting phrasing on his part however. Still with the HIOOH at the end, i think he meant it more as a zing moment. What i find a bit weird is that Bioware has always been very liberal and diverse in their cast, but it is only recently it has become an issue for many people. I'll agree that if an agenda hurts the quality of the game/games it is absolutely not for the better. However Andromeda's biggest issues has nothing to do with an agenda. They are fun to nitpick at though, or so it seems. It has gotten more forceful (synthesis or EDI and Joker or what they did to the Geth in ME3 and the Inquisition being all "let's all be free together") and it clashes with the current identity politics being all the rage. Then when you look at Twitter and you see BioWare devs constantly retweet and talk about these things the inclusive elements just seem more... dishonest? I'm not sure that's the right word. Still, yeah, I could've been less rude and I was probably seeing ghosts because "preparing for combat with potions" isn't exclusive to Witcher... it wast heavily emphasized in those games, particularly 1 and 2 and there was already that "Witcher 2 is much better than DA2" thing going on on boards back then.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 29, 2017 20:32:39 GMT
As I recall, ME3's import problem was one slider was defaulting to 0. The kind of thing that should have been apparent had they tested it once or twice, but that was it. I believe the import problem was that there were no face codes in ME1. ME2 characters worked. But ME1 characters were missing the information entirely. The only way to import ME1 characters before they fixed it was to generate the face code on PC manually. This also worked for console savefiles with a bit of work. I pulled it off. The other far greater issue was related to how Bioware deleted certain CC options entirely (nose and mouth sliders, for example) because they didn't work with the new facial animations. Combined with different graphics, some people's Shepards looked nothing like they did before. I saw the most hideous results posted by REALLY upset people on the old BSN. My Shepard looked different too but I was lucky I liked the new look fine enough even though she no longer had purple eyes. Don't ask me how a COLOR had to be removed for their "great" new facial animations. The dead ME3 eyes were godawful in general. Fixed them in DAI, now they are back in MEA. I really wish Bioware would hire competent people for CC and animations. This keeps getting worse rather than better. I don't understand what's going on over there.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 29, 2017 20:44:00 GMT
It just goes to show that QA focused more on the "new game" users. EA PR guys even asked all reviewers to pick the "everyman experience" according to Giant Bomb and Colin Moriarty did so among others. Then he gave the game a 9.5 at IGN and need I remind you again why the metacritic score, which Ray and Casey Hudson used in defense of the ending controversy, is complete bullshit?
They probably also asked people to talk about "the verticality". In fact I just saw this video yesterday which is of another case but it goes to show how disingenuous the review-industry is and how much publishers affect it... (or not because game in question got mediocre scores lol)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 20:46:50 GMT
Is it really that hard? I changed some of the graphic settings because I thought the game was a bit too dark and yellow toned in some places, and now the "white people tones" look really pale in my game. That happened to me too.
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