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Post by docklenator on May 3, 2017 12:26:23 GMT
Except you are missing the fact that the Exiles becoming a militia and freeing Kadara port makes no real sense after they were curb stomped by the Krogan. It was discussed ad nauseum and, again, it happens solely because the writers wanted it so. But hey, for both THEM and the Krogan taking the violence approach worked uh? I wonder what would have happened if we all did that from the start! The fact that the angara would distrust us pretty much is pointless, I will happily take their distrust and be able to defend myself over being able to hug them and sing kumbaya with them and so would any fucking sane individual. Oh...they angara distrust us? Oh...well whatever since we can defend ourselves they can be as distrustful as they like in time...if not, well, orbital bombardment is always a good way to make upitty little bastards calm down. Speaking of sane individual, again this is Bioware shattering our suspense of disbelief. There are HUNDREDS OF YEARS OLD Asari who signed up for the initiative knowing they would be sitting fucking ducks....yep, including a legendary commando. Did they think that it was a good idea? Well....Bioware thought so....so why the fuck not. Bioware wanted X to happen maybe because they felt they wanted to be unique in some sort (because you know....everyone uses soldiers in videogames, we got to be unique snowflakes!!!!) so decided to fuck common sense and be lazy with writing hoping people would be too dumb to question it You sound like you'd buy a car and be pissed off because all cars should be trucks in the first place. :/ ((And outcasts vs Krogan (as well as everyone else) =/= outcasts on an open planet with the ability to operate freely (Unless a three man squad can "realistically" defeat an entire army hundreds of times over.)) The plot points are explained well enough through the game that the issue isn't "lazy writing" but a matter of personal choice, and for someone going on about snowflakes you sound awful pissed that something isn't what you think it SHOULD be as if that's a problem for the person who created the product as opposed to the person who bought
The ENTIRE point of the initiative is Jien Garson's Ideals of compassion and cooperation. This is one of the very first points the game makes out to you.
Also the game hits on key points from the evolution of our own civilizations well enough that you SHOULD be able to understand WHY explorers do not arrive in vast armadas capable of bringing destruction.
"Would they we have treated them differently if they showed up on Earth armed to the teeth?"
And for the Angara... You don't care that they distrust us? Every point you're making in that rant is just dumb, and there's really just no other way to say it. Orbital bombardment is one way to calm down uppity people, sure, but again this isn't a game about conquest and subjugation (and no one told you it was either.)
The point is to EXPLORE and COOPERATE with new species, not to arrive and force everyone to like it. You could say THAT is stupid, but I'd counter that you're stupid for buying the wrong game.
There's a thought process for a narrative that goes beyond "show up with guns / kill enemies / loot /."
Maybe bioware will make a game just for you where you CAN be the badguy. You'll show up, in a galaxy that has some problems, and use your massive armada to crush anything in your path that disagrees with you.
Until then we have Andromeda, a story about explorers from the Milky Way who were to be the first from their Galaxy to settle a New Galaxy. An initiative that spans several different species with thousands of members who could get behind a mission of peace and dedicate what sparse resources they could bring to scientific discovery instead of warfare.
There's nothing wrong with that either, you just sound butt-hurt that Andromeda is Andromeda instead of Mass Effect:Conquistadors.
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Post by vilegrim on May 3, 2017 14:16:21 GMT
the recoil is there as a gameplay mechanic...with that kinda weapon there should be none...THAT SAID...even with that kind of recoil compared to that of a Mass Effect weapon I'd say I doubt the ship would not be able to bear it Of course...tree hugger dev mentality trumps logic Soldier! What is Newton's third law of motion? Actio est reactio.
Well technically he wrote: Lex III: Actioni contrariam semper et æqualem esse reactionem: sive corporum duorum actiones in se mutuo semper esse æquales et in partes contrarias dirigi.
Unlike a laser a plasma ball is still a body with a mass. You're accellerating a plasma ball with a certain force and the weapon gets accellerated backwards with the same force. . Except with mass effect field it doesn't have a mass worth talking about, that's kinda the point, it regains mass after it leaves the field
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on May 3, 2017 17:11:33 GMT
Except you are missing the fact that the Exiles becoming a militia and freeing Kadara port makes no real sense after they were curb stomped by the Krogan. It was discussed ad nauseum and, again, it happens solely because the writers wanted it so. But hey, for both THEM and the Krogan taking the violence approach worked uh? I wonder what would have happened if we all did that from the start! The fact that the angara would distrust us pretty much is pointless, I will happily take their distrust and be able to defend myself over being able to hug them and sing kumbaya with them and so would any fucking sane individual. Oh...they angara distrust us? Oh...well whatever since we can defend ourselves they can be as distrustful as they like in time...if not, well, orbital bombardment is always a good way to make upitty little bastards calm down. Speaking of sane individual, again this is Bioware shattering our suspense of disbelief. There are HUNDREDS OF YEARS OLD Asari who signed up for the initiative knowing they would be sitting fucking ducks....yep, including a legendary commando. Did they think that it was a good idea? Well....Bioware thought so....so why the fuck not. Bioware wanted X to happen maybe because they felt they wanted to be unique in some sort (because you know....everyone uses soldiers in videogames, we got to be unique snowflakes!!!!) so decided to fuck common sense and be lazy with writing hoping people would be too dumb to question it You sound like you'd buy a car and be pissed off because all cars should be trucks in the first place. :/ ((And outcasts vs Krogan (as well as everyone else) =/= outcasts on an open planet with the ability to operate freely (Unless a three man squad can "realistically" defeat an entire army hundreds of times over.)) The plot points are explained well enough through the game that the issue isn't "lazy writing" but a matter of personal choice, and for someone going on about snowflakes you sound awful pissed that something isn't what you think it SHOULD be as if that's a problem for the person who created the product as opposed to the person who bought
The ENTIRE point of the initiative is Jien Garson's Ideals of compassion and cooperation. This is one of the very first points the game makes out to you.
Also the game hits on key points from the evolution of our own civilizations well enough that you SHOULD be able to understand WHY explorers do not arrive in vast armadas capable of bringing destruction.
"Would they we have treated them differently if they showed up on Earth armed to the teeth?"
And for the Angara... You don't care that they distrust us? Every point you're making in that rant is just dumb, and there's really just no other way to say it. Orbital bombardment is one way to calm down uppity people, sure, but again this isn't a game about conquest and subjugation (and no one told you it was either.)
The point is to EXPLORE and COOPERATE with new species, not to arrive and force everyone to like it. You could say THAT is stupid, but I'd counter that you're stupid for buying the wrong game.
There's a thought process for a narrative that goes beyond "show up with guns / kill enemies / loot /."
Maybe bioware will make a game just for you where you CAN be the badguy. You'll show up, in a galaxy that has some problems, and use your massive armada to crush anything in your path that disagrees with you.
Until then we have Andromeda, a story about explorers from the Milky Way who were to be the first from their Galaxy to settle a New Galaxy. An initiative that spans several different species with thousands of members who could get behind a mission of peace and dedicate what sparse resources they could bring to scientific discovery instead of warfare.
There's nothing wrong with that either, you just sound butt-hurt that Andromeda is Andromeda instead of Mass Effect:Conquistadors.
yes the game tries to make those points and tails because, again, people with common sense know that if there is a chance to be met with hostility (and we saw this happen with the first contact war) where a race attacked another with no warning, then you need to be able to defend ourselves and the AI IS NOT ABLE TO. And yes while, honestly, a game of conquest would have pleased me more than "Mass Effect Woodstock love and peace" I would have entirely been ok with the premise if some common sense was applied. Colombia expedition to the Indias wad meant to find new trading routes but all of his three ships (funded by the Portuguese crown because the Italian dropped the fucking ball) were armed, cannons and everything. Why? Because if upon arrival shit hit the fan they would have been able to fight back. The fact the game tries to make a point based on BW's internal beliefs or whatnot does not make that point valid and the initiative founder might have been a rich space hippy but the Benefactor was definitely not and I wonder WHY since he was backing the project he did not demand some better defenses. Again...you want fucking peace? Prepare for war and guess what? The game proved me right, the only way the AI survived was through military force gained by an armada of remnant warships and the collective military force of the Angara, the outcasts, the Krogan and the Initiative And the ONLY reason the archon got even that close to exalt us all is because when he got to the nexus we were, AGAIN, utterly fucking defenseless and the only reason we and the angara were not extinguished is because we are needed for their reproduction, were we not the Salariabs would have been blown apart, the Asaro would have been blown apart and the nexus would have been blown apart WITHOUT any doubt because, AGAIN, if the archon chose to they would have had absolutely NO WAY of fighting back. And once more, just because Bioware wants to make a point of making us play along with hippy logic fueled by the power of love does not mean it makes a lick of sense.
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Post by docklenator on May 3, 2017 23:25:59 GMT
The only thing Arming those 5 ships would have done is get them slaughtered. The Archon had a full Invasion fleet, and we weren't invading Heleus. At the time they launched the Initiative had every reason to believe the cluster was devoid of advanced technology. Not to mention their resources were not infinite, they barely had the means to transport their colinists let alone out fit the arks with full blown siege technology, and again they weren't on their way to fight a war. They had no reason to assume they would be assaulted in such a way.
Their issues in the cluster weren't due to a lack of weaponry, they were due to the scourge (which weapons wouldn't have assisted against) and completely unknown technology being hit by the scourge and rendering all of their planets inhabitable.
Had those ships been armed to the teeth they still wouldn't have been able to defend themselves against the Archon's Armada, there's no situation where they're NOT boned coming out of 634yr cryo sleep against a full scale invasion fleet capable of subjugating an entire cluster. (An invasion fleet that had only been there a fraction of the time of their journey.) Armed ships or not, the only thing that would have saved them in that instance would be finding allies. It would have been pure stupidity to fire upon such a fleet, suicide. Especially since Humans are unfit for exaltation, there would have been no reason to swat that bee out of the air.
As far as the potential of small skirmishes, pirates and raiders? They were actually WELL equipped to handle them... And they did. The colonists were not defenseless, they were just not prepared for a war they had no way of knowing would be going on.
The Nexus and the Arks also had plenty of people to stop boarding parties, but unfortunately the Nexus skeleton crew was fractured by infighting losing a large portion of their crew and nearly all of their Krogan. The Arks themselves were unable to fight back not due to a lack of shipbased weaponry (again, not enough to destroy a full Invasion fleet) but due to the fact that nearly all of their people are stuck in cryo because their Golden world can't support them.
As far as the ideal itself? The mission isn't some "Kumbaya" expedition. Its one of compassion and scientific progression. They're reaching out in PEACE, to make allies and further their understanding of the Universe. They're explorers trying to AVOID the mistakes of the First Contact War, not recreate them.
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Post by Ahriman on May 4, 2017 7:33:04 GMT
The only thing Arming those 5 ships would have done is get them slaughtered. The Archon had a full Invasion fleet, and we weren't invading Heleus. At the time they launched the Initiative had every reason to believe the cluster was devoid of advanced technology. This makes no sense. Advanced technology species isn't something which needs millions of years to appear somewhere, they can simply, you know, fly in. And these colonists come from a galaxy where activation of primary relays is forbidden because there could another rachni out there, so don't even tell me how they couldn't expect anything bad. Kett ships are scrap, any fleet from MW would obliterate this entire 'armada'. Asari and salarian Arks situations happened because they couldn't even fend off single Kett ship of smaller size.
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Post by docklenator on May 4, 2017 13:48:54 GMT
The only thing Arming those 5 ships would have done is get them slaughtered. The Archon had a full Invasion fleet, and we weren't invading Heleus. At the time they launched the Initiative had every reason to believe the cluster was devoid of advanced technology. This makes no sense. Advanced technology species isn't something which needs millions of years to appear somewhere, they can simply, you know, fly in. And these colonists come from a galaxy where activation of primary relays is forbidden because there could another rachni out there, so don't even tell me how they couldn't expect anything bad. Kett ships are scrap, any fleet from MW would obliterate this entire 'armada'. Asari and salarian Arks situations happened because they couldn't even fend off single Kett ship of smaller size. 1. Expecting trouble is not the same as expecting an Armada equipped to Exalt an entire cluster. Dangerous wildlife, pirates, those things were anticipated and accounted for, and handled with little trouble despite the majority of their people being in stasis. They surveyed THOUSANDS of planets in Andromeda and settled on the Heleus cluster. Had they seen evidence of an aggressive force on that scale they simply would have chosen to go elsewhere. They accounted for realistic problems efficiently: to quote "We expected Hostilities, not an enemy that wouldn't even speak." 2. That's a matter of opinion (and an incredibly biased one.) Kett Weaponry and technology is stated several times to be on par with MW tech (stated IN GAME to be superior in some ways.) The only way a Kett ship would be "scrap" is just because you think they don't look as fancy. Even if they were significantly inferior to Initiative MW craft, five well armed ships STILL would not Trash an entire Armada. That is incredibly biased wank. 3. The ship's greater size was for the very specific reason of transporting in excess of 20k colonists, supplies, outpost materials, and survey equipment each 2million light years. No faction I've seen in any game in the series has had such limitless resources that they could retrofit an unprecedented ship like that into a warship as well, not to mention the time constraints on the project. Its more complicated than "Well why CAN'T it be a gigantic warship TOO!" A buss is larger than some tanks, but that doesn't mean slapping a couple of guns on it will make it a fair fight. Cargo planes are larger than fighter jets, you should be getting my point by now. 4. As I stated very clearly before, the reason these ships were successfully boarded had very little to nothing at all to do with the lack of armament. They were all running skeleton crews, unable to bring the bulk of their crew out of stasis. 20 thousand, even poorly if that had been the case, armed civilians would be enough to deter any boarding party. The main problems they encounter are a lack of habitable planets, the scourge, leading to a lack of resources and thusly manpower.
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Post by djbare on May 4, 2017 17:59:54 GMT
Tempest is a research and exploration vessel not a warship, not that it makes any difference, I had been hoping for space encounters, but didn't happen, oh and I don't mean outrunning enemies(I still shake my head at that).
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 19:47:16 GMT
The Nomad not having a gun was clearly a gameplay choice. They didn't want us blowing up all of those enemies encampments with our main gun, rather than getting out for "dynamic combat". I do love dynamically assaulting those encampments; but not having a gun seems foolish. I guess that the same argument could be made for the Nomad that is true if the arks-- civilian "jeeps" don't need a .50 cal on the back. Seems like they could've gotten permission for at least a few such, though. Say four, for the four Pathfinders? (Of course, we scavenged the Nomad, rather than being assigned one.) There is also the fact that first contacts could've been made in the Nomad. A gun on top could've soured the tone of such an exchange. I don't know. The air is getting thin up here in the clouds, where I'm reaching for these explanations. Yeah, I think the gameplay/encounter design was a big chunk of the reason. We weren't dealing with turrets, geth colossus, or the like, though there is some sizable wildlife. Another reason I suspect has to do with controller mapping. The Mako and Hammerhead were controlled with the left stick, just like walking. They clearly wanted to make the Nomad a much sportier vehicle, and making it fun to drive was a high priority. Acceleration/deceleration is now mapped to the triggers (which were used to fire the Mako's and Hammerhead's weapons) instead of the left stick - which I suspect lends greater control of the vehicle. I've never played a racing game, but I think the Nomad's control mapping is more in line with vehicle controls from other games, so driving it feels more natural to those who have played those other games. Anyway, the triggers that are usually used to fire weapons have been assigned to moving the vehicle, so... perhaps that's another reason why the Nomad is weapon-free. On another note: I have to wonder what might have happened if the arks did have weapons that autofired on the scourge, with it being dark energy and all? There are quite a few possibilities I can imagine, and most of them result in the ark taking much more damage. I dunno.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on May 5, 2017 2:30:27 GMT
This makes no sense. Advanced technology species isn't something which needs millions of years to appear somewhere, they can simply, you know, fly in. And these colonists come from a galaxy where activation of primary relays is forbidden because there could another rachni out there, so don't even tell me how they couldn't expect anything bad. Kett ships are scrap, any fleet from MW would obliterate this entire 'armada'. Asari and salarian Arks situations happened because they couldn't even fend off single Kett ship of smaller size. 1. Expecting trouble is not the same as expecting an Armada equipped to Exalt an entire cluster. Dangerous wildlife, pirates, those things were anticipated and accounted for, and handled with little trouble despite the majority of their people being in stasis. They surveyed THOUSANDS of planets in Andromeda and settled on the Heleus cluster. Had they seen evidence of an aggressive force on that scale they simply would have chosen to go elsewhere. They accounted for realistic problems efficiently: to quote "We expected Hostilities, not an enemy that wouldn't even speak." 2. That's a matter of opinion (and an incredibly biased one.) Kett Weaponry and technology is stated several times to be on par with MW tech (stated IN GAME to be superior in some ways.) The only way a Kett ship would be "scrap" is just because you think they don't look as fancy. Even if they were significantly inferior to Initiative MW craft, five well armed ships STILL would not Trash an entire Armada. That is incredibly biased wank. 3. The ship's greater size was for the very specific reason of transporting in excess of 20k colonists, supplies, outpost materials, and survey equipment each 2million light years. No faction I've seen in any game in the series has had such limitless resources that they could retrofit an unprecedented ship like that into a warship as well, not to mention the time constraints on the project. Its more complicated than "Well why CAN'T it be a gigantic warship TOO!" A buss is larger than some tanks, but that doesn't mean slapping a couple of guns on it will make it a fair fight. Cargo planes are larger than fighter jets, you should be getting my point by now. 4. As I stated very clearly before, the reason these ships were successfully boarded had very little to nothing at all to do with the lack of armament. They were all running skeleton crews, unable to bring the bulk of their crew out of stasis. 20 thousand, even poorly if that had been the case, armed civilians would be enough to deter any boarding party. The main problems they encounter are a lack of habitable planets, the scourge, leading to a lack of resources and thusly manpower. you got to be fucking with me... First off, Kett tech is inferior to MW tech.... From engines (they had to go into cry sleep to move from cluster to cluster) to actual weapons to armors and shields and only the EVER once were defined as "hitting just as hard as ours" Hell one of their capital ships is taken down by automated turrets with no shields to speak off and their fighters are taken down by SHUTTLES. Oh and...REALLY? the arks were boarded successfully because they did not have a full crew??? Ok...lets say EVERYONE was awake...then what? Oh...I know...they will all surrender to the Kett forces once they are told "surrender or we blow up your defenseless sitting duck of a ship" You know what tho...I am done arguing with you. Enjoy the space hippy mentality, hopefully Bioware understood the idiocy of it all and we can go back to what makes sense in MEA2. Hopefully MEA: Conquistadores
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Post by docklenator on May 5, 2017 3:11:16 GMT
You're using highly selective logic and leaving out serious details in order to support your stance. The game detailed these issues clearly, as have I.
The issue isn't with plot screening writer logic, its with you being unable to understand the many thought processes that would go into an endeavour like this because you just want to blow shit up. That's okay, this isn't the game for you. That doesn't mean the game is wrong in the slightest though.
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Post by zipzap2000 on May 5, 2017 3:50:21 GMT
The tempest would need a complete rebuild. It has no armour plating and the recoil from a main gun would blow out all its windows (Structural weakness) according to Cora and Kallo tells you its only defenses are stealth mode and a kinetic barrier. Its not fit for a fight even if you put a guns on it. energy weapon....no kickback That doesn't address your armour or shielding issues. Your gun is only useful for as long as your ship hasn't been blown in half. Which is made easier by windows and a cargo bay in the centre of the ship instead of the rear. So again, the Tempest would need a complete rebuild, because windows are a structural weakness (The normandy has blast shields.) it has no armour and its only real defence is its stealth drive. Its not fit for combat.
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Post by Element Zero on May 5, 2017 4:13:32 GMT
The Nomad not having a gun was clearly a gameplay choice. They didn't want us blowing up all of those enemies encampments with our main gun, rather than getting out for "dynamic combat". I do love dynamically assaulting those encampments; but not having a gun seems foolish. I guess that the same argument could be made for the Nomad that is true if the arks-- civilian "jeeps" don't need a .50 cal on the back. Seems like they could've gotten permission for at least a few such, though. Say four, for the four Pathfinders? (Of course, we scavenged the Nomad, rather than being assigned one.) There is also the fact that first contacts could've been made in the Nomad. A gun on top could've soured the tone of such an exchange. I don't know. The air is getting thin up here in the clouds, where I'm reaching for these explanations. Yeah, I think the gameplay/encounter design was a big chunk of the reason. We weren't dealing with turrets, geth colossus, or the like, though there is some sizable wildlife. Another reason I suspect has to do with controller mapping. The Mako and Hammerhead were controlled with the left stick, just like walking. They clearly wanted to make the Nomad a much sportier vehicle, and making it fun to drive was a high priority. Acceleration/deceleration is now mapped to the triggers (which were used to fire the Mako's and Hammerhead's weapons) instead of the left stick - which I suspect lends greater control of the vehicle. I've never played a racing game, but I think the Nomad's control mapping is more in line with vehicle controls from other games, so driving it feels more natural to those who have played those other games. Anyway, the triggers that are usually used to fire weapons have been assigned to moving the vehicle, so... perhaps that's another reason why the Nomad is weapon-free. On another note: I have to wonder what might have happened if the arks did have weapons that autofired on the scourge, with it being dark energy and all? There are quite a few possibilities I can imagine, and most of them result in the ark taking much more damage. I dunno. I'm not so sure that the controller layout was an issue. The cannon used the R1 bumper in ME. That's used for mining probes in MEA, but only when that mode is activated. They could've implemented a functional weapon, but I don't necessarily think they should have. Your point about the Nomad being a light, agile vehicle is important. It couldn't support a big gun, or even one that could seriously trump combo explosions. Plus, as we mentioned with gameplay, that would be cheap and boring as hell. I like to earn my victories; not roll up and blast 10 dudes with a cannon or mini-gun. The exploration vehicle fit the game very well, I think. I am curious to see what happens in MEA2, though. The Initiative is now at war with the kett, so armed vehicles would be appropriate. Perhaps more importantly, many fans wanted a gun. I'm curious to how the new armed Nomads will be, assuming my expectation proves accurate.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on May 5, 2017 15:15:49 GMT
energy weapon....no kickback That doesn't address your armour or shielding issues. Your gun is only useful for as long as your ship hasn't been blown in half. Which is made easier by windows and a cargo bay in the centre of the ship instead of the rear. So again, the Tempest would need a complete rebuild, because windows are a structural weakness (The normandy has blast shields.) it has no armour and its only real defence is its stealth drive. Its not fit for combat. no problem with a retrofit if you ask me
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Post by Dr. Vanity on May 6, 2017 3:39:29 GMT
I'm curious as to how the Andromeda Initiative will handle defense following ME:A. Assuming you did the H-047c tiller vault, you have a large supply of Helium-3 for fuel but there's still the Kett threat in the near-to-far future plus any other beings that could pop up. Likelihood of the AI developing their own fleet/battleships or do the Angara have such ships?
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Post by djbare on May 6, 2017 14:19:05 GMT
I think it has to be kept in mind, the initiative is not what it appears to be on the surface, this first game is a setup, that is everyone is being used by the mysterious benefactor, it all smacks of manipulation, this is why I think the player character is limited from being fully war like, you build subtle traits in this game which will obviously carry over to any sequel, it's my belief, that's when the brown stuff will hit the fan, the hint to me is Prodomos, research or military.
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Post by lexxxich on May 7, 2017 9:54:42 GMT
Can't really put guns or armour on Tempest. Poor ship was designed so that it has to be held together with mass effect fields, otherwise it'll break in half while manoeuvring. Marvel of engineering, my ass. Same with Nomad. Poor car has such a weak power supply it can only go half the speed when made to rotate all 6 wheels instead of just 4. It's shields are so feeble a small squad with hand-held weapons can turn it into cheese. Climate control so useless it can't stand -50 degrees for more than half an hour.
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