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Post by Sondergaard on Jun 1, 2017 12:16:06 GMT
Well, we're shown rebuilding the Mass Relays and Citadel, so yes. It is never really explained how we are capable of doing that. Mass Relays at least quite literally defy space and time. No race has started learning about Relays enough to effectively rebuild one. The equivalent of me with no mechanical engineering going out and building a brand new more fuel efficient jet engine out of scrap metal I found in my shed. Doesn't matter. The game can't show us everything leading up to an event but if it shows the event itself then I have to accept it happened. But yes, a throwaway line or a codex entry saying, for example, 'With the ability to examine Reaper tech new avenues have opened up in the study of mass relays' would have helped bridge the credibility gap.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 1, 2017 12:44:22 GMT
It is never really explained how we are capable of doing that. Mass Relays at least quite literally defy space and time. No race has started learning about Relays enough to effectively rebuild one. The equivalent of me with no mechanical engineering going out and building a brand new more fuel efficient jet engine out of scrap metal I found in my shed. Doesn't matter. The game can't show us everything leading up to an event but if it shows the event itself then I have to accept it happened. But yes, a throwaway line or a codex entry saying, for example, 'With the ability to examine Reaper tech new avenues have opened up in the study of mass relays' would have helped bridge the credibility gap. Except ME 2 has Liara's Father out right state that bringing up the idea of studying the Mass Relays and learning to build their own was laughed at by the rest of the Matriarchs on Thessia. There is only a 6 month gap between ME 2 and ME3 and during all of ME 3 the galaxy is at war with almost all resources going to the war effort. Even the Protheans got a proto type working with none to be had or hinted at for this cycle. I only bring this up because players complain about the hand waving happy ending of synthesis yet this is just as obvious hand waving happy ending for destroy. Other wise the implied repercussions of destroy ending is millions more dying in the after effect of the choice. And that isn't even counting the massive had waving happy ending of only Reapers and Reaper Tech being effected. Which is arguably an even larger hand wave happy ending.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 1, 2017 13:46:53 GMT
I sacrifice the geth and EDI so Shepard and Kaidan can have a happily ever after. I think we're all kind of shallow with our choices. Eeerrrr....I don't think so. With only one planet to feed several races (Krogans mainly), everyone dies in the War that happens after the destroy ending. Or do you think that without the reapers it is possible to rebuild the relay rings? The ending shows the Citadel being rebuilt. Not hard to conclude the relays are as well. Even the Catalyst itself says that everything destroyed could be easily rebuilt.
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Post by stephenw32768 on Jun 1, 2017 18:00:40 GMT
Mass Relays at least quite literally defy space and time. No race has started learning about Relays enough to effectively rebuild one. I may be wrong, but I have in my head that the Conduit in ME1 was constructed by the Protheans, not the Reapers. Now, the Conduit is a small-scale science project compared with a full-blown mass relay, but it's a start. It would be the effort of years, if not decades, for the people of the galaxy to a/ reverse-engineer it and b/ continue the research to a level where they could repair a relay, but I think it sufficient evidence to believe that it would be possible. Where there's a will...
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Post by brfritos on Jun 1, 2017 22:36:30 GMT
Actually no, is NOT false or inaccurate. The only way to prevent the extermination of one of them is if Legion from ME2 AND Tali are present in your playthrough. If one of them are absent or replaced by someone else you are screwed, you have to chose one race and let the other die. ( Like I said before, this shouldn't be the case, specially if you imported a save from ME2 (I make a concession about a fresh ME3 playthrough without importing the save). Of course you have the liberty of choosing one of them and let the other die. But why would you? You need to amass a military force capable of facing the Reapers, don't you? An armada of quarians and geth dreadnoughts, cruisers and frigates seems a impressive firepower to add to your forces, so why not use both of them if the opportunity presents itself? It is false... You precisely said "the only way to have one exterminated" - that means that the only way to have one lose the war, but you can always have one exterminated simply by choosing to side with one or the other and not arguing for peace (which you now admit). The only way to prevent the extermination of one or the other is to have both Tali and Legion present and have a high enough reputation. Why would you? If the Shepard you're roleplaying morally sides with one or the other (potentially... he/she is a bigot and not above undermining his/her cause because of it). There is room in the game for people to play different personalities of Shepard... that's the point of an RPG, isn't it? Yes! Finally! Work hours will come back to normal after all this time. The guy I replaced must have been bribed by MS, that's the only reason you will choose a Windows smartphone platform to integrate with your systems. Wich are a mix of Windows and Linux servers, the plataform responsible to receive and analyse the data being Linux. Argh, the apps in the Windows OS are terrible. Ok. Yes, I have said that. Forgot we are a bunch of nerds who take everything to the letter. LOL Or is it my fault, english is not my mother tongue, probably is because of this. Anyway, I was only complaining about being forced to have Tali and the original Legion with me to solve the Rannoch arc with a peace between the Quarians and the Geth. I would prefer to have something like Omega, where Shepard can influence Aria to be more "mercyfull" to the people of Omega by the way she conduct the missions and how she decide her actions. I don't remember if it's possible to have Oleg and at the same time gain the kiss at the end, didn't played the DLC for a long time, but maybe I'm wrong. Can't have it all, I guess.
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Post by brfritos on Jun 1, 2017 22:42:54 GMT
I have a pure paragon playthrough like this BTW: Legion and Tali are alive, Tali is exiled, I solved their loyalty argument in ME2 amicably and I rewrited the heretic geth in ME2. After performing the missions in Rannoch arc by saving admiral Koris and shuting down the geth fighters, I was able to broke a peace betweeen them (contrary to what the ME wiki says). My reputation bar was almost full if memory serves and only the paragon choice was available. I quoted you again to say that I wasn't able to get peace with the above scenario. Everything you did, I did. I even replayed the scene a few times to choose the correct dialogue. I got no dialogue option on the left to have the quaraias stand down. The reason is because Tali is exiled. Even if all the other requirements are met, the player will not be able to get peace as long as Tali is exiled. You can rewrite the geth and still get peace, but Tali has to be loyal and not exiled. Another way is to have Tali not loyal, but not exiled which means the player cannot rewrite the geth because he/she doesn't have enough points for peace. Need at least 5 Really? I'm replaying ME3 after a long time, this time with EGM and Back Off installed. I'm reaching Rannoch with this Shepard in particular, I will come back to share what I've found and to know if I have to bury myself into a hole.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2017 23:02:44 GMT
Destroy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2017 23:33:28 GMT
It is false... You precisely said "the only way to have one exterminated" - that means that the only way to have one lose the war, but you can always have one exterminated simply by choosing to side with one or the other and not arguing for peace (which you now admit). The only way to prevent the extermination of one or the other is to have both Tali and Legion present and have a high enough reputation. Why would you? If the Shepard you're roleplaying morally sides with one or the other (potentially... he/she is a bigot and not above undermining his/her cause because of it). There is room in the game for people to play different personalities of Shepard... that's the point of an RPG, isn't it? Yes! Finally! Work hours will come back to normal after all this time. The guy I replaced must have been bribed by MS, that's the only reason you will choose a Windows smartphone platform to integrate with your systems. Wich are a mix of Windows and Linux servers, the plataform responsible to receive and analyse the data being Linux. Argh, the apps in the Windows OS are terrible. Ok. Yes, I have said that. Forgot we are a bunch of nerds who take everything to the letter. LOL Or is it my fault, english is not my mother tongue, probably is because of this. Anyway, I was only complaining about being forced to have Tali and the original Legion with me to solve the Rannoch arc with a peace between the Quarians and the Geth. I would prefer to have something like Omega, where Shepard can influence Aria to be more "mercyfull" to the people of Omega by the way she conduct the missions and how she decide her actions. I don't remember if it's possible to have Oleg and at the same time gain the kiss at the end, didn't played the DLC for a long time, but maybe I'm wrong. Can't have it all, I guess. I would also have liked to have been allowed to solve for peace without Tali and/or without Legion (particularly without Legion since my renegade Shep's quite often choose to send him off to Cerberus to be studied). I don't think I was just being nerdish... the definition of "only" when used as an adverb is pretty, well, definitive: "and no one or nothing more besides; solely or exclusively" and it seems it literally turned what you posted into the exact opposite of what you apparently wanted to say. I'm sorry for the confusion.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 2, 2017 1:45:12 GMT
Mass Relays at least quite literally defy space and time. No race has started learning about Relays enough to effectively rebuild one. I may be wrong, but I have in my head that the Conduit in ME1 was constructed by the Protheans, not the Reapers. Now, the Conduit is a small-scale science project compared with a full-blown mass relay, but it's a start. It would be the effort of years, if not decades, for the people of the galaxy to a/ reverse-engineer it and b/ continue the research to a level where they could repair a relay, but I think it sufficient evidence to believe that it would be possible. Where there's a will... The Conduit was a Mass Relay Prototype build by the Protheans right before the Reapers invaded. They actually studied and learned how it worked. The same can not be said for any race in the current cycle. With the game out right stating that the Asari in particular have no interest in learning about how it works to recreate that technology. And it is never hinted any of the other races even vaugly understand the technology behind it. Standard FTL is just a drastic increase in speed but Relay Travel crosses hundreds of light years that would take even Reapers traveling at full speed months to cross in seconds. It is almost literally FTL^2. Achieving FTL speed equivalent while going at FTL speed already. And for the races of the galaxy to go from going 6-10 times lower then the Reapers with conventional FTL speed to building Relays without any work or prototyping shown or even hinted at.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 2, 2017 2:18:06 GMT
All I know is that with a high EMS Destroy ending is that the slideshows indicate a shiny happy future for everyone who didn't die during the war. Hence, I have to assume some things, which in certain cases could be either/or. I assume the relays came up in time to get dextro people on Earth back home. Or maybe there are other worlds where dextro food could grow, even if they aren't inhabited by turians (quarians obviously don't have a home other than Rannoch, assuming they survived). If quarians were present, they have the Migrant Fleet. It is already capable of supporting the quarians. They could share with any turians on Earth or even, potentially, lend some of their seeds to plant crops in a greenhouse on Earth (though, tbh, for tourism purposes I imagine such things already exist). Sure, it would take time to grow, but in the meantime the quarians and turians are sharing food. It might just mean they have to ration until the crops grow. If the quarians are dead, yeah, it'll be real tight for the turians but, as I said, there probably already is dextro food on Earth for tourism purposes and presumably it wasn't all destroyed (or else all food would have been destroyed and that obviously didn't happen).
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Post by fiannawolf on Jun 2, 2017 3:35:18 GMT
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 2, 2017 5:33:26 GMT
^^^^^ Exactly!
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 4, 2017 19:30:53 GMT
I like this. I think it puts things in context about who is aligned with what choices. It's more in line with what I already thought but here it is.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 4, 2017 23:24:17 GMT
I like this. I think it puts things in context about who is aligned with what choices. It's more in line with what I already thought but here it is. So how do you see synthesis as submission? Is in your mind there only 2 possible out comes of conflict? I mean that is kind of like me saying only small brained idiots would ever pick destroy. I don't like destroy and I have issues with it but doesn't auto mean that only small brained idiots pick destroy.
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Post by Guardian on Jun 5, 2017 13:50:19 GMT
I like this. I think it puts things in context about who is aligned with what choices. It's more in line with what I already thought but here it is. Yeah....pretty much this.
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Post by Pokemario on Jun 5, 2017 15:24:24 GMT
Synthesis
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 1:41:20 GMT
The dark energy plot was way worse than what we got. I like what we got and never bought into IT. The crucible as a trap is just the IT folks grasping at straws. The EC solved any issues I had. The beauty of ME3's ending is they let the player ultimately decide how it ends. They don't come out and tell us what the true meaning of the ending is.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 9, 2018 3:49:27 GMT
True. There are people who swear by Synthesis. I did that ending once. Not the worst thing ever. I played Control and felt horribly depressed afterward. Haven't done Refusal yet, but I can't imagine especially liking it. Destroy is the "feel good" ending as far as I'm concerned. I do prefer MEHEM, but even without it I'd [regrettably] sacrifice EDI and the geth. I do think that any way you look at it, Shepard's story needs to be done. Does the story of the MW have to be done? Not necessarily. I don't mind Andromeda but it would need it needs more, smaller clusters rather than a single one half the size of the MW.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 9, 2018 14:21:14 GMT
The ones that choose destroy are simply the ones that are the least adaptable. They are the ones not able to change their mind in light of new evidence and information. They are the ones that are too emotional and attached to face the truth of the matter; The Reapers are more a mistake rather than pure evil. But it's always easier to maintain the hatred towards your enemy, rather than be understanding, especially when your own feelings are being hurt in the process... The ending in ME3 is actually quite the personal challenge I agreed with most of your post. I take issue with this portion. Destroy is the only option. Sorry. Synthesism is a forced homogenization that nobody wanted or asked for, and removes diversity from the universe in one fell swoop. Sounds great at first listen, and then you think about the implications; it is not a good option. Control, we all know the problem with control - you are just replacing StarBrat with ShepBrat... It will fail eventually. So, you complain that Destroy is for simple minds. It doesn't matter what the Reapers are, or if they are evil incarnate. They must be stopped or we die. Simple really. This brings the mirror back to you. Are you sure about who knows the truth? I'm pretty sure you have it wrong.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Aug 9, 2018 14:52:20 GMT
The ones that choose destroy are simply the ones that are the least adaptable. They are the ones not able to change their mind in light of new evidence and information. They are the ones that are too emotional and attached to face the truth of the matter; The Reapers are more a mistake rather than pure evil. But it's always easier to maintain the hatred towards your enemy, rather than be understanding, especially when your own feelings are being hurt in the process... The ending in ME3 is actually quite the personal challenge I agreed with most of your post. I take issue with this portion. Destroy is the only option. Sorry. Synthesism is a forced homogenization that nobody wanted or asked for, and removes diversity from the universe in one fell swoop. Sounds great at first listen, and then you think about the implications; it is not a good option. Control, we all know the problem with control - you are just replacing StarBrat with ShepBrat... It will fail eventually. So, you complain that Destroy is for simple minds. It doesn't matter what the Reapers are, or if they are evil incarnate. They must be stopped or we die. Simple really. This brings the mirror back to you. Are you sure about who knows the truth? I'm pretty sure you have it wrong. Never mind that trying to justify the Reapers as anything over than "Evil" is frankly laughable if you actually pay attention to what the Reapers themselves Say and Do, that fly in the face of the idea of "Their not evil! really!" Even if they weren't evil, you are correct, that fact is irrelevant. They must be destroyed, to avoid any possibility of The Cycle ever returning. It is the only morally correct choice, for all future generations.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 9, 2018 15:02:52 GMT
I don't know if it's morally correct either; you commit to destroying the Geth and EDI as well, as much as people want to headcanon around it.
That to me is why the SP ending is still a complete failure. Every choice had a major caveat, thus despite being willing and ready to sacrifice your life for the good of the cause you cannot "win".
If Shep dies, and the rest of the crew lives to rebuild, that is an ending. The only way to get that ending is Synthesis, which is a blasphemy.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Aug 9, 2018 15:09:46 GMT
I don't know if it's morally correct either; you commit to destroying the Geth and EDI as well, as much as people want to headcanon around it. That to me is why the SP ending is still a complete failure. Every choice had a major caveat, thus despite being willing and ready to sacrifice your life for the good of the cause you cannot "win". If Shep dies, and the rest of the crew lives to rebuild, that is an ending. The only way to get that ending is Synthesis, which is a blasphemy. Biowerpls. It is morally correct, because The other alternatives are morally worse by the mere fact the Reapers continue existing, thus leaving a chance, no matter how slim, of The Cycle returning. Never mind the fact that to me personally, The Geth mean nothing what-so-ever. I have no sympathy for the Geth and never have. EDI, as much as I like her, is a machine, and is thus less important than organic life to me.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 9, 2018 15:22:36 GMT
I don't know if it's morally correct either; you commit to destroying the Geth and EDI as well, as much as people want to headcanon around it. That to me is why the SP ending is still a complete failure. Every choice had a major caveat, thus despite being willing and ready to sacrifice your life for the good of the cause you cannot "win". If Shep dies, and the rest of the crew lives to rebuild, that is an ending. The only way to get that ending is Synthesis, which is a blasphemy. Biowerpls. It is morally correct, because The other alternatives are morally worse by the mere fact the Reapers continue existing, thus leaving a chance, no matter how slim, of The Cycle returning. Never mind the fact that to me personally, The Geth mean nothing what-so-ever. I have no sympathy for the Geth and never have. EDI, as much as I like her, is a machine, and is thus less important than organic life to me. It is morally better. There is no morally correct choice. Having to choose friendly genocide to defeat the Reapers is not morally correct, I am sorry but no. That is an ends justify the means argument. The development of ME3 was too rushed, and the game could have been so much more. Having to make snap decisions in a crunch environment is a bad way to develop a premium property. DA2 was similarly rushed, and had different problems, arguably better problems than ME3. I am fine with any sort of new Mass Effect game that returns to Warp, Stasis, Lift, Throw, Overload, Incinerate, all the ME3 grenades, all the ME2/3 guns + some new guns, and all of the MW races involved. If that happens in Andromeda, that is fine. Just stop with the Andromeda effect of no time having passed, still in the technological timeline of ME2 yet there is all of this new special tech that supercedes everything we've been using to fight the Reapers, everything available to Space Jesus Shepard the Cyborg Spectre. Good grief why?
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Post by therevanchist25 on Aug 9, 2018 15:30:10 GMT
It is morally correct, because The other alternatives are morally worse by the mere fact the Reapers continue existing, thus leaving a chance, no matter how slim, of The Cycle returning. Never mind the fact that to me personally, The Geth mean nothing what-so-ever. I have no sympathy for the Geth and never have. EDI, as much as I like her, is a machine, and is thus less important than organic life to me. It is morally better. There is no morally correct choice. Having to choose friendly genocide to defeat the Reapers is not morally correct, I am sorry but no. That is an ends justify the means argument. The development of ME3 was too rushed, and the game could have been so much more. Having to make snap decisions in a crunch environment is a bad way to develop a premium property. DA2 was similarly rushed, and had different problems, arguably better problems than ME3. I am fine with any sort of new Mass Effect game that returns to Warp, Stasis, Lift, Throw, Overload, Incinerate, all the ME3 grenades, all the ME2/3 guns + some new guns, and all of the MW races involved. If that happens in Andromeda, that is fine. Just stop with the Andromeda effect of no time having passed, still in the technological timeline of ME2 yet there is all of this new special tech that supercedes everything we've been using to fight the Reapers, everything available to Space Jesus Shepard the Cyborg Spectre. Good grief why? I could get in depth, and argue that no genocide is committed because all of the losses are machines, but I won't go in that direction because that goes into a totally off topic debate about what defines Life, which is in the end a personal interpretation. And yes, ME3 was horribly rushed, it was a shell of what it should have been, and the ending of it was probably the worst possible way to end the trilogy, from almost ever possible angle. Even more so if they knew going in that this was a series they would work with in the future.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 9, 2018 15:59:42 GMT
I could get in depth, and argue that no genocide is committed because all of the losses are machines, but I won't go in that direction because that goes into a totally off topic debate about what defines Life, which is in the end a personal interpretation. I would definitely argue with you there, so indeed that is the rub. We don't have to debate it to acknowledge it as an elephant in the room.
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