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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 10, 2018 22:07:21 GMT
Err..its not the ending I asked for. The only ending I choose in ME3 (pre and post EC) was Destroy. Well, the "we" there is shorthand for "a large percentage of the commenting fanbase," of course. I never had the problem myself, since none of my Shepards are stupid enough or morally absolutist enough to Refuse unless I create one just for that. Although I supported the request -- I'm always in favor of more RP choices, and Refusing sounded like something fun to add. (The "The Crucible has been destroyed" pop-up didn't really do it for me, since you couldn't see the consequences.) Well, glad that has been cleared up.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 10, 2018 22:08:07 GMT
It's also an ending we begged for. The most common complaint about the final choices pre-EC was that "my Shepard would never make any of those choices." Well, we got what we asked for. The problem was that a lot of us were lying about what we didn't like. No, the problem was, there was zero chance of getting what fans actually wanted, which was an ending that didn't involve contrived, out-of-nowhere choices that abandoned the core of what mass effect was. So instead fans just begged for whatever more they could get, namely "Closure" and "I don't want to make these choices" ultra vague and none descriptive requests that are easily attainable for a company that refuses to budge. I do agree however, those people who asked for that, got exactly what they wanted. My point was that the people who said that not being able to refuse to use the Crucible was their problem were lying. There were a lot of them. In multiple threads. It wasn't even a controversial position, since as a matter of RP Refusing is a perfectly reasonable thing to ask for. What was controversial was asking for a Refuse which led to victory, but we don't need to recapitulate those arguments.
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Post by sil on Aug 10, 2018 22:08:40 GMT
]I don't see the mechanism. Why would two nations attack each other over a change which simultaneously happened to both of them? Sudden chaos can cause the worst to emerge, look at the aftermath of the hurricane hitting New Orleans, there were gangs looting and murdering, in the stadiums where people found shelter there were rapes, murders and thefts. And that is the chaos of an aftermath to an event that people can understand as they know weather, they know storms and hurricanes. So imagine what its like to suddenly have your entire body corrupted with glowing greenery, that everything around you is changed and you cannot quantify it, you cannot understand it, and the shock will manifest in thousands of different ways. I admit that some cultures might view it as a blessing, others as an abomination. From there, imagine a Cold War scenario like during the Cuban Missile Crisis. If the wave had hit then, both sides would have blamed each other and mutually assured destruction would've been mutually assured, killing billions. We know from history the terrible events that happen when chaos ensues, even in the safest of regions. We know that people will find an excuse for war and bloodshed if they want it, any excuse. And we know religious intolerance and fanaticism, which some or many aliens are bound to have some experience with. There will be others who respond to the chaos by outreaching gently and trying to make people feel safe, there are people like that in the real world who strive to provide order, but people panic. Even if there wasn't violence, there are bound to be accidents, falling down stairs or off other heights, vehicle crashes, various other accidents too. Lets do a little mathematics. There are estimates that there could be trillions of civilisations out there, but lets shrink that to make a more manageable number. Wikipedia predicts there are 40 billion planets planets in the goldilocks zone of stars. Obviously not all will have civilised life, so lets take away 95% of those to get an estimate (but probably too high) number of planets with civilisations. 5% of 40,000,000,000 = 2,000,000,000 So lets say there are 2 billion civilisations out there that the galaxy doesn't know of. We know less that 1% of the galaxy has been explored. If only 1 person on each planet died as a consequence of the chaos caused by the synthesis wave, that's 2 billion deaths. If a thousand died on each civilised world, that's 2 trillion deaths. And that's being conservative with the amount that could die, as some planets could be like ours with billions of inhabitants. And thats only factoring in sapient deaths, who knows how other lifeforms would react. My point is, that people die when chaos happens for various reasons, generally because survival instincts kick in or people unleash their upset, fear and frustrations in different ways. This would happen with Synthesis changing all life, even life that does not even know of the Relays. HOWEVER!I could be wrong. And if I am, if every civilisation in the Milky Way got hit by the beam and no-one felt confused, there was no social chaos, and no-one directly died from it.... don't you find that particularly frightening that a wave of energy has so much power that it can stop that?
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 10, 2018 22:32:54 GMT
I don't see how the "any excuse" bit helps to make a case. If they're really going to use any excuse, then they'd have a war whether everyone's green and glowing or not. If Synthesis doesn't trigger the war then something else will. You need wars that wouldn't happen without Synthesis. I suppose there might be a couple of hysterical idiots with their fingers on nuclear triggers, though.
I'm also not sure that society would instantly break down. A cop who mysteriously starts glowing green is still a cop.
The wild card here is that we don't really have any idea what the nature of the upgrades are. The green is a symptom, but a symptom of what, exactly? Organics will have superior capabilities, but we don't know exactly what those are.
Note that I'm only talking about the strictly utilitarian aspects of Synthesis, not the other moral issues.
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 10, 2018 22:57:44 GMT
It is always surprising to me, how so many people never stop to really think about what Refuse ending really is. It was an ending, made by a studio out of spite, during a time where they publicly said their entire fan base was just too stupid to comprehend the artistic brilliance of their ending. Really the entire Extended Cut oozes with cynical, barely contained rage at the player. It hypes up Synthesis as this perfect Literal Magic Utopia when it is by far the least popular and most criticized option among the fan base. Control is implied as the new ShepAI basically being the Dictator of the Universe, more so if Renegade, but Paragon is still heavily iffy. Destroy is depicted actually realistically, heavy hearts and heavy losses, but with renewed hope and joy for the future. But most importantly, the Reapers are actually dead. It's also an ending we begged for. The most common complaint about the final choices pre-EC was that "my Shepard would never make any of those choices." Well, we got what we asked for. The problem was that a lot of us were lying about what we didn't like. I never asked for it.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 11, 2018 2:42:42 GMT
I don't see how the "any excuse" bit helps to make a case. If they're really going to use any excuse, then they'd have a war whether everyone's green and glowing or not. If Synthesis doesn't trigger the war then something else will. You need wars that wouldn't happen without Synthesis. I suppose there might be a couple of hysterical idiots with their fingers on nuclear triggers, though. I'd be willing to bet Synthesis would almost definitely cause war. No one would know what was going, why they were green, what the long-term effects were...most likely blaming humanity (Shepard in particular) for this happening. Then they'd turn on each other - if only the Councilors hadn't dragged their asses as far back as ME1, a lot of this could have been averted. I can seriously see all-out war coming out of this. Control would minimize it. Refuse would have them all dead. Destroy works well enough since the Reapers are clearly dead. The biggest issue would be about how the mass relays could be restored to full function before the quarians and turians die from lack of food.
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Post by ahglock on Aug 11, 2018 3:49:09 GMT
I don't see how the "any excuse" bit helps to make a case. If they're really going to use any excuse, then they'd have a war whether everyone's green and glowing or not. If Synthesis doesn't trigger the war then something else will. You need wars that wouldn't happen without Synthesis. I suppose there might be a couple of hysterical idiots with their fingers on nuclear triggers, though. I'd be willing to bet Synthesis would almost definitely cause war. No one would know what was going, why they were green, what the long-term effects were...most likely blaming humanity (Shepard in particular) for this happening. Then they'd turn on each other - if only the Councilors hadn't dragged their asses as far back as ME1, a lot of this could have been averted. I can seriously see all-out war coming out of this. Control would minimize it. Refuse would have them all dead. Destroy works well enough since the Reapers are clearly dead. The biggest issue would be about how the mass relays could be restored to full function before the quarians and turians die from lack of food.
There are two ways to look at Synthesis, either it doesn't really change you outside putting tech in you in which case I'm not sure how it helped and yeah probably billions die in a freakout. I'm not even sure why the Reapers stop killing. They do, but why and for how long. Or its more of a forced evolution mentally, spiritually into a one scenario in which case you kind of killed all life in the galaxy by brainwashing it into the one. I kind of assumed with all the look everyone is peaceful images of the ending it was the latter. So, great choice you killed everyone by turning them into brainwashed reaper organisms. Its effectively a mass indoctrination of all life including AIs.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 11, 2018 3:54:10 GMT
I'd be willing to bet Synthesis would almost definitely cause war. No one would know what was going, why they were green, what the long-term effects were...most likely blaming humanity (Shepard in particular) for this happening. Then they'd turn on each other - if only the Councilors hadn't dragged their asses as far back as ME1, a lot of this could have been averted. I can seriously see all-out war coming out of this. Control would minimize it. Refuse would have them all dead. Destroy works well enough since the Reapers are clearly dead. The biggest issue would be about how the mass relays could be restored to full function before the quarians and turians die from lack of food.
There are two ways to look at Synthesis, either it doesn't really change you outside putting tech in you in which case I'm not sure how it helped and yeah probably billions die in a freakout. I'm not even sure why the Reapers stop killing. They do, but why and for how long. Or its more of a forced evolution mentally, spiritually into a one scenario in which case you kind of killed all life in the galaxy by brainwashing it into the one. I kind of assumed with all the look everyone is peaceful images of the ending it was the latter. So, great choice you killed everyone by turning them into brainwashed reaper organisms. Its effectively a mass indoctrination of all life including AIs.
I never saw it precisely that way but, wow, yeah, that's it exactly. It's the only thing that makes sense in regard to whatever synthetics became. Imagine this with the Catalyst at the helm? A bit scary. Even if the Catalyst stopped organics vs synthetics they haven't stopped war. To me, that's a fail because there's nothing to stop Synthesized Humans and Synthesized Asari from coming into conflict. Makes the "solution" utterly pointless.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Aug 11, 2018 17:12:03 GMT
I could get in depth, and argue that no genocide is committed because all of the losses are machines, but I won't go in that direction because that goes into a totally off topic debate about what defines Life, which is in the end a personal interpretation. I would definitely argue with you there, so indeed that is the rub. We don't have to debate it to acknowledge it as an elephant in the room. You know what? I'll take the bait. I'll explain exactly why I don't care about the "consequences" of destroy. First of all, EDI said she was willing to die for Joker, if it meant stopping the Reapers. She was prepared and willing to make that sacrifice, so I don't feel bad about that. But now the Geth bit, and why I don't give a flying F about the Geth. Their death is brought upon themselves, because they decided to implant their entire race with Reaper Code, and the Crucible attacks everything with Reaper Code in it. You might say "but it granted them sentience! it was a positive addition!" Oh really, so then why did the Geth refuse Nezara to begin with? They said they didn't want to "cheat" their way to true sentience, and earn it themselves. But then they just end up "cheating" anyway? knowing full well the risks that come with Reaper Code? Nope, sorry. You lost my sympathy. The Geth refused the Heretics for embracing the Reapers and taking their technology, they refused Nezara because they wanted to earn their sentience themselves. Then the Quarians attack, and they cast aside all their moral certitudes and convictions and willingly become slaves to the Reapers. Then once released from this slavery go back on their other belief, about earning it themselves. To me, the Geth are hypocrites, and are unworthy of my sympathy and remorse. In an unrelated note I want to express my disappointment I had when I realized ME3 had totally sterilized and white washed the events of the Morning War, removing all the interesting Moral Greyness that was implied prior.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 11, 2018 17:25:26 GMT
I don't care about the hologram turned platform. It was a squadmate more to keep the clown happy and likely to help promote the green. I would rather have an ME2 squadmate instead of the thing. The hologram served no purpose as a platform.
The geth I don't care about. Take away the reaper interference, the quarians would have destroyed them. So when I choose the quarians, my Shepard is helping them finish what they started. The other thing is why would I let the geth upload the reaper code? How do I know they won't shoot at me like they did on the dreadnought or previous missions?
So when it comes to choosing destroy, the geth and the edi platform are the furthest things from my Shepard's mind.
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Post by Ascend on Aug 11, 2018 17:35:31 GMT
Refuse is not a good ending, because all Refuse is, is the next cycle using the Crucible in one of the 3 ways we were given. They had the same 3 choices, and they picked one. That is literally all it is. So Refuse is literally our entire cycle dying for basically no reason. I wouldn't say for no reason. If the player is so stuck up regarding their bias that they choose to not make a choice, it is what it is. The game stresses a gazillion times that you simply cannot win this war with military might. It is an appropriate ending. But it is one that not many like, because they're too used to being pampered, always winning, always feeling like the hero, and never being wrong. A game allowing you to be wrong is a good thing. Refuse ending, despite the epic Shepard monologue is really nothing but Bioware giving the fans who didn't want any of those choices the finger. This idea is only further reinforced by the fact that shooting the StarBrat triggers the refuse ending, because shooting it was the fans favorite thing to do in literally every video and how StarBrat gets all super pissy and screams "SO BE IT!" Harbinger style because the player refuses to participate in their Deus Ex rip off ending. The info about the next cycle btw, was confirmed by a Bioware Dev's tweet, so that is not in dispute. Well, everyone wanted to tell the catalyst to F off. They gave you that option, with consequences. They didn't like the consequences implemented, but that's the player's problem. In fact, the consequences are quite positive, considering the galaxy is ultimately at peace. And, we know the species survived towards Andromeda now, so... Again, Extended Cut is canon. We can see, definitively, that society rebuilds itself after the Destroy ending. Not only that, but they rebuild themselves to a high enough level where they can build new AI systems if needed, and the Leviathans are no where in sight during that epilogue. So what? Every other ending also shows a very positive and bright future. Why is it ok the spin those to put a bunch of problems in it, but thinking for problems for destroy is somehow not allowed? Technically, despite all the implications, synthesis seems to be the most happy ending in the way BioWare has presented it. You have a choice. Either you take all the endings literally as presented, or all endings are allowed to be criticized for their implications that were not shown in it. You can't have it both ways. For example, a great way to incorporate player choice. if the Quarians and Geth made peace, then have it so the Quarians rebuilt the Geth and restored their intelligence to them. Remember that the Geth were an accident. They likely don't even know how they did it. And if they tried there's no guarantee that they would turn out exactly the same. And considering their collective works, they'll likely never get the same information as in the current 'old' galaxy, meaning they would ultimately be different. What would be a more clear sign of proving StarBrat wrong about it's idiotic conclusions? Destroy is hardly the worst option, I will always argue, that it is, and always will be, the best option available. Why do you need to prove that when he himself stated that his solution doesn't work anymore? Yes, he still argues that synthetics will always rebel against their creators. He did it himself for one, and the Geth also did it to the Quarians. It was the Quarian's own stubbornness near the end of ME3 that nearly got them wiped out. And what stopped them from killing each other? Right. Shepard. The one that (potentially) solved that conflict can now take over the whole reaper armada. How is control bad again? You're free to argue that destroy is the best ending. I would argue, that choosing destroy is the same mentality that the Quarians had during the conflict with the Geth near the end of ME3. Take that as you may.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 11, 2018 18:10:55 GMT
I do care about both the Geth and EDI, because I am a child of Roddenberry and the Prime Directive prevents me from entertaining such horrors.
They are intelligent life forms.
Also, you have the option to destroy the Heretics and not have the Geth upgraded by Reaper tech. That is only to point out that there is an in-game answer for this.
Killing a Geth, or the Heretic faction? I can see those being justfied in some cases. Killing all the Geth, who have assisted you in your war effort and been incredibly loyal? No, can't do it. You can, I can't.
The game ends with talking to Anderson for me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2018 18:17:59 GMT
Qui-Gon GlenN7 have you tried the lighter version of the happy ending mod? Shep leans over, hits the button (the one that takes the platform up to the kid) and it sends the destroy signal out instead. The beam keeps all AI but kills the reapers. I've tried other endings but that is now my canon, it's not too heavy or modded and it's a simple way to end it. www.nexusmods.com/masseffect3/mods/265
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 11, 2018 23:23:17 GMT
I don't see how the "any excuse" bit helps to make a case. If they're really going to use any excuse, then they'd have a war whether everyone's green and glowing or not. If Synthesis doesn't trigger the war then something else will. You need wars that wouldn't happen without Synthesis. I suppose there might be a couple of hysterical idiots with their fingers on nuclear triggers, though. I'd be willing to bet Synthesis would almost definitely cause war. No one would know what was going, why they were green, what the long-term effects were...most likely blaming humanity (Shepard in particular) for this happening. Then they'd turn on each other - if only the Councilors hadn't dragged their asses as far back as ME1, a lot of this could have been averted. I can seriously see all-out war coming out of this. Control would minimize it. Refuse would have them all dead. Destroy works well enough since the Reapers are clearly dead. The biggest issue would be about how the mass relays could be restored to full function before the quarians and turians die from lack of food. Well, the last point can be handwaved away pretty easy if the devs want. A compatible planet within conventional mass effect range of Sol can simply be invented. We haven't heard of it before because the Alliance had no use for it, but wasn't about to let the turians or quarians colonize anything in the Local Group. As for the war thing, I believe Synthesis is supposed to imply that people get smarter. (Note that Wreav behaves differently.) Maybe moronic wars like that will be a thing of the past? But that's just a guess. Shepard certainly can't count on that happening.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 11, 2018 23:32:10 GMT
Also, you have the option to destroy the Heretics and not have the Geth upgraded by Reaper tech. That is only to point out that there is an in-game answer for this. I don't check you on this.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 11, 2018 23:34:08 GMT
Also, you have the option to destroy the Heretics and not have the Geth upgraded by Reaper tech. That is only to point out that there is an in-game answer for this. I don't check you on this. Is my memory lying to me? I really do believe that is an in-game option.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 11, 2018 23:38:49 GMT
But now the Geth bit, and why I don't give a flying F about the Geth. Their death is brought upon themselves, because they decided to implant their entire race with Reaper Code, and the Crucible attacks everything with Reaper Code in it. You might say "but it granted them sentience! it was a positive addition!" Oh really, so then why did the Geth refuse Nezara to begin with? They said they didn't want to "cheat" their way to true sentience, and earn it themselves. But then they just end up "cheating" anyway? knowing full well the risks that come with Reaper Code? Risks of Reaper code? Without Reaper assistance the geth wouldn't have even been in ME3; they'd have been exterminated by the quarians before Shepard even knew what was happening. Your position is tantamount to saying that the geth should have preferred extinction. Which is OK, but be honest about it. If anything, the quarians are genocidal maniacs who deserve extermination; the geth are innocent victims. (I don't often play this way, but that's my pro-organic prejudice talking.)
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 11, 2018 23:40:37 GMT
I don't check you on this. Is my memory lying to me? I really do believe that is an in-game option. You can destroy the heretics, but it doesn't change the situation at Rannoch much. It changes war assets around, and makes quarian-geth peace more likely since the quarians feel less threatened by the geth, but that's about it.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 11, 2018 23:42:37 GMT
I'd be willing to bet Synthesis would almost definitely cause war. No one would know what was going, why they were green, what the long-term effects were...most likely blaming humanity (Shepard in particular) for this happening. Then they'd turn on each other - if only the Councilors hadn't dragged their asses as far back as ME1, a lot of this could have been averted. I can seriously see all-out war coming out of this. Control would minimize it. Refuse would have them all dead. Destroy works well enough since the Reapers are clearly dead. The biggest issue would be about how the mass relays could be restored to full function before the quarians and turians die from lack of food.
There are two ways to look at Synthesis, either it doesn't really change you outside putting tech in you in which case I'm not sure how it helped and yeah probably billions die in a freakout. I'm not even sure why the Reapers stop killing. They do, but why and for how long. Or its more of a forced evolution mentally, spiritually into a one scenario in which case you kind of killed all life in the galaxy by brainwashing it into the one. I kind of assumed with all the look everyone is peaceful images of the ending it was the latter. So, great choice you killed everyone by turning them into brainwashed reaper organisms. Its effectively a mass indoctrination of all life including AIs.
Why are those the only two possibilities you see?
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Post by therevanchist25 on Aug 11, 2018 23:54:24 GMT
But now the Geth bit, and why I don't give a flying F about the Geth. Their death is brought upon themselves, because they decided to implant their entire race with Reaper Code, and the Crucible attacks everything with Reaper Code in it. You might say "but it granted them sentience! it was a positive addition!" Oh really, so then why did the Geth refuse Nezara to begin with? They said they didn't want to "cheat" their way to true sentience, and earn it themselves. But then they just end up "cheating" anyway? knowing full well the risks that come with Reaper Code? Risks of Reaper code? Without Reaper assistance the geth wouldn't have even been in ME3; they'd have been exterminated by the quarians before Shepard even knew what was happening. Your position is tantamount to saying that the geth should have preferred extinction. Which is OK, but be honest about it. If anything, the quarians are genocidal maniacs who deserve extermination; the geth are innocent victims. (I don't often play this way, but that's my pro-organic prejudice talking.) Oh please, the Quarians of the modern era are entirely justified. They are not the ones that began the Morning War, those Quarians are long dead. The modern Quarians are people who have never had a home, forever in exile because the Geth forced them off all of their worlds centuries ago when the Geth was butchering every single man woman and child in their fight for "freedom". Give me a break with this "innocent victims" garbage. Responding to oppression with equal levels of mercilessness does not give you a free pass.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 12, 2018 2:11:54 GMT
Is my memory lying to me? I really do believe that is an in-game option. You can destroy the heretics, but it doesn't change the situation at Rannoch much. It changes war assets around, and makes quarian-geth peace more likely since the quarians feel less threatened by the geth, but that's about it. Ok, then my point stands. If you destroy the Heretics, the Geth are not upgraded with Reaper tech, which negates revanchist's argument. That is my point.
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Aug 12, 2018 3:16:38 GMT
There are two ways to look at Synthesis, either it doesn't really change you outside putting tech in you in which case I'm not sure how it helped and yeah probably billions die in a freakout. I'm not even sure why the Reapers stop killing. They do, but why and for how long. Or its more of a forced evolution mentally, spiritually into a one scenario in which case you kind of killed all life in the galaxy by brainwashing it into the one. I kind of assumed with all the look everyone is peaceful images of the ending it was the latter. So, great choice you killed everyone by turning them into brainwashed reaper organisms. Its effectively a mass indoctrination of all life including AIs.
Why are those the only two possibilities you see? Either it somehow altered people at their core or it didn't. If it did, you rewrote the heretics, you indoctrinated them however you want to call it which is basically the same thing as killing them. If it didn't everything is the same as before. The Reapers will find another faulty logic reason to kill everyone, people still are people and kill and get into wars for all the same stupid reasons. Having a neuro-processor or whatever might help you fight AI but if it didn't change you at the core, you will fight them just as much as before for pretty much the same reasons. And given that cybernetics existed you don't need a green wave to upgrade organics to be more combat ready against AI. There isn't some transhumanist kumbaya moment because we all have tech in our bodies anymore than war goes away because we can all communicate on the internet.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 12, 2018 4:47:15 GMT
As for the war thing, I believe Synthesis is supposed to imply that people get smarter. (Note that Wreav behaves differently.) Maybe moronic wars like that will be a thing of the past? But that's just a guess. Shepard certainly can't count on that happening. Where did it imply that? I never saw anything that implied that people were smarter. The whole point of Synthesis was to find a "peaceful" (never mind the billion years of genocide beforehand) solution to the organics vs synthetics problem. Making organics and synthetics essentially the same prevents that from happening because everyone is the same. It in no way postulates that people are smart enough to not engage in war for other reasons. The Reapers stop fighting because the objective was achieved. Meanwhile, a billion years ago, the Reapers could have interceded at any time before any organic or synthetic civilization was destroyed. Instead, they chose genocide on a scale that NO ONE can even imagine. No, fuck Synthesis. Reapers need to die.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Aug 12, 2018 9:27:15 GMT
You can destroy the heretics, but it doesn't change the situation at Rannoch much. It changes war assets around, and makes quarian-geth peace more likely since the quarians feel less threatened by the geth, but that's about it. Ok, then my point stands. If you destroy the Heretics, the Geth are not upgraded with Reaper tech, which negates revanchist's argument. That is my point. The Geth are literally always upgraded with Reaper Code in the "make Peace" scenario. That is how they gain sentience. If you refuse to let them do that, the Quarians kill them because the Geth cannot defeat them without it.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 12, 2018 14:26:15 GMT
Ok, then my point stands. If you destroy the Heretics, the Geth are not upgraded with Reaper tech, which negates revanchist's argument. That is my point. The Geth are literally always upgraded with Reaper Code in the "make Peace" scenario. That is how they gain sentience. If you refuse to let them do that, the Quarians kill them because the Geth cannot defeat them without it. No. They gain sentience, when Legion goes to them... He is sentient, the Geth are not. He is their catalyst. If I have this wrong, then I have to say it's time to play again. I don't think I am wrong.
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