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Post by therevanchist25 on Aug 12, 2018 14:41:25 GMT
The Geth are literally always upgraded with Reaper Code in the "make Peace" scenario. That is how they gain sentience. If you refuse to let them do that, the Quarians kill them because the Geth cannot defeat them without it. No. They gain sentience, when Legion goes to them... He is sentient, the Geth are not. He is their catalyst. If I have this wrong, then I have to say it's time to play again. I don't think I am wrong. He uses the code that he had, but it was not enough by itself because parts were missing. So he uses himself to "fill in the gaps" and upload it to the Neural Network. If they did not contain Reaper Code, the Crucible would not destroy them.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 12, 2018 18:23:10 GMT
No. They gain sentience, when Legion goes to them... He is sentient, the Geth are not. He is their catalyst. If I have this wrong, then I have to say it's time to play again. I don't think I am wrong. He uses the code that he had, but it was not enough by itself because parts were missing. So he uses himself to "fill in the gaps" and upload it to the Neural Network. If they did not contain Reaper Code, the Crucible would not destroy them. Why did they need to become individuals, though? The geth consensus is a perfectly valid type of existence. Sci-fi is no stranger to hive minds where the individual is simply part of a greater whole. I get that they were in danger in the moment but why not just retreat to somewhere else? It worked for the quarians.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Aug 12, 2018 18:38:23 GMT
He uses the code that he had, but it was not enough by itself because parts were missing. So he uses himself to "fill in the gaps" and upload it to the Neural Network. If they did not contain Reaper Code, the Crucible would not destroy them. Why did they need to become individuals, though? The geth consensus is a perfectly valid type of existence. Sci-fi is no stranger to hive minds where the individual is simply part of a greater whole. I get that they were in danger in the moment but why not just retreat to somewhere else? It worked for the quarians. I would agree with that, but for whatever reason, they apparently desired to become individuals.
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Post by sageoflife on Aug 12, 2018 19:12:15 GMT
Destroy with the geth surviving. I'm fine with EDI dying because of her Reaper components, but the destruction of the geth was obviously just there to give players a reason to choose a different ending.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 12, 2018 19:18:14 GMT
Destroy with the geth surviving. I'm fine with EDI dying because of her Reaper components, but the destruction of the geth was obviously just there to give players a reason to choose a different ending. To that I say...MEHEM. However, yes, I believe EDI was willing to sacrifice herself to stop the Reapers.
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Post by sil on Aug 12, 2018 22:01:36 GMT
I think its best to treat the Catalyst as the liar it is. It's an intelligence that has survived for a billion years, and it knows Shepard as it has studied him, do you think it would happily sell its own extinction to him, or put road blocks in the way to encourage him towards a different choice?
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 12, 2018 22:38:23 GMT
... or dislike least. I'm curious to see what people think about this after 5 years. Mac Walters has indicated in an interview Bioware may return to the Milky Way in a future game, "when people are ready for it." (paraphrasing). I can't see how this can be done if set post ME3 without choosing a canon ending, or moving 100's of years at least into the future. Let's assume Bioware chooses to go with a canon option for the sake of argument. bsn.boards.net/thread/8099/interesting-excerpt-interview-regarding-andromedaDisclaimer: This is my first poll, so forgive me if I messed something up. - Sorry refusers, I'm leaving it out for fairly obvious reasons. I'd still like to know your least disliked option other than this. - I'm aware there are some mods which effectively rewrite the ending. Too few people are aware of them to be worth including - The poll is ignores the question of whether Shepard lives and his/her moral compass. This needn't be set in stone in a future game imo. Edit: I understand this is still a very controversial subject, but please be respectful everyone. I don't want to risk the thread getting locked. I'm a little surprised destroy as portrayed is the most popular answer so far, and want to make sure nobody misunderstood option 4. I only meant "similar to MEHEM and the happy ending mods" to mean that killing the Reapers would not wipe out all other synthetic life, not one of those mods being canonised or even heavily borrowed from. Let me know if this would change your answer and I'll redo the poll if enough people are on board with it. If they decided to make a sequel, then they should rewrite the entire ending. I like Fallout: New Vegas style of ending that shows different outcomes depending on the player's actions and choices. They should learn from strong narrative games to create the best ending to close the chapter of Shepard.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 13, 2018 4:42:40 GMT
I think its best to treat the Catalyst as the liar it is. It's an intelligence that has survived for a billion years, and it knows Shepard as it has studied him, do you think it would happily sell its own extinction to him, or put road blocks in the way to encourage him towards a different choice? <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 3.1599999999999966px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_66861200" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_78953076" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 98px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_21044917" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 98px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_49919517" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> The Catalyst clearly wanted Shepard to choose Synthesis, promoting it as the Best Thing EVAH!!! Meanwhile, a billion years ago, the first thing it did was turn on its creators. I doubt it saw the irony in that action. Best to make sure that thing is made permanently non-functional - not overwritten but destroyed. Send that lying piece of crap to synthetic hell.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 13, 2018 4:53:46 GMT
The problem with the whole "The Catalyst is lying to Shepard" thing is the fact it points out Destroy as well. If it is lying about Control and Synthesis to avoid us killing it, why in the world would it tell us the truth about how to kill it. Out of any of the endings that one seems to be the most suspicious. "Shoot and damage the thing you built to kill us. Trust me, that will totally make it work." Either it is lying about all the choices or it is lying about none of them. Considering the fact Refuse wasn't added until the EC, if it was lying about all of them then no matter what the Reapers win so that leans from a storytelling perspective it is telling the truth about the endings.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 13, 2018 5:04:36 GMT
The problem with the whole "The Catalyst is lying to Shepard" thing is the fact it points out Destroy as well. If it is lying about Control and Synthesis to avoid us killing it, why in the world would it tell us the truth about how to kill it. Out of any of the endings that one seems to be the most suspicious. "Shoot and damage the thing you built to kill us. Trust me, that will totally make it work." Either it is lying about all the choices or it is lying about none of them. Considering the fact Refuse wasn't added until the EC, if it was lying about all of them then no matter what the Reapers win so that leans from a storytelling perspective it is telling the truth about the endings. Except that it did, in fact, lie. It said Shepard would die from being partly synthetic. High EMS = living Shepard. Ergo, the Catalyst was lying. I see it as making the Destroy option less appealing. There is only one option that lets the Catalyst remain fully functioning. I don't have to point out which one, do I?
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Post by themikefest on Aug 13, 2018 5:16:06 GMT
Also the thing says the green can't be forced, but its Shepard that's forcing it on the galaxy, if chosen.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 13, 2018 8:15:19 GMT
Let's face it there were contradictions abounding in the explanation of the Catalyst. In fact I don't see why we call it the catalyst since, as the word implies, the catalyst is required to make the device fire and clearly that means that Shepard is the catalyst. Without Shepard making a choice the weapon simply doesn't work, refuse ending. Synthesis, control or destroy are all dependent on Shepard doing something definite. Otherwise, if the goal of the Reaper AI is to achieve synthesis, then with Shepard opting out of a decision, why didn't it just grab another human with synthetic parts and throw them into the beam?
So the biggest problem I have with any of the endings is that Shepard is playing god. Literally the fate of the entire galaxy is dependent on them making a choice in the few seconds you are allotted to do so. My first run, before the extended cut, I was so befuddled by the brief exposition on the part of the hologram, I was totally confused about what to do and what the outcome would be. Having the choices colour coded did not help either.
To have my ideal ending of Reapers destroyed but EDI and Geth surviving, a number of things would have to change within the game.
First the arrays that target only Reaper tech should have been part of an actual sub-quest, not simply hidden in the planet scanning quests.
Second, if you do the quest before doing the Geth/Qarian one, then you have the option of killing Legion to stop him uploading the Reaper codes to the Geth but still allowing the Geth to survive as they had up to that point. It is clear that letting Legion upload those codes is what dooms the Geth and to my mind is one of those instances when then writers are loading the outcome in favour of one in particular, Synthesis. At the time I did the quest, having just destroyed a Reaper virus in the Geth, I could not understand why Shepard would want to allow Legion to upload another Reaper code to them. It just didn't make sense. But the only way to prevent it was to doom the entire Geth consensus when it was Legion, the only one with freewill, who was proposing it.
Third, make it clear to EDI that you suspect that as she has Reaper tech, she may be in danger from the targeting arrays, which then give EDI the opportunity either to make the necessary adjustments or more likely, download her consciousness to a back-up system that is shielded from the effects. Alternatively have EDI simply assert as she does anyway that she thinks the Reapers are vile and is willing to die in order to remove them from the galaxy.
Lastly, the writers themselves would have to view all outcomes as equal in merit depending upon your point of view, when it is clear the hologram, voicing their view of the matter, is clearly suggesting that synthesis is the ideal solution for long term peace. What is most annoying about this is the assertion that synthetics and organics will always end up in conflict with one another, to the ultimate destruction of organics, if you have just succeeded in uniting an entire galaxy against the Reapers, including the former enemies of the Qarians and the Geth. You are never allowed to use this obvious paradox to its argument as a means of disproving its theory but it is what lies behind my decision that destroy is ultimately the best outcome for the galaxy, trusting that the various races will be capable of using what they have learned to prevent a similar situation arising in the future.
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 13, 2018 11:54:29 GMT
This video breaks down the disaster of ME3 and how poor the writing is. I know the video is like an hour long, but the video is worth to watch to get a fresh perspective.
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Post by sil on Aug 13, 2018 13:15:21 GMT
This video breaks down the disaster of ME3 and how poor the writing is. I know the video is like an hour long, but the video is worth to watch to get a fresh perspective. The ending has been debated so much, I doubt there is a fresh perspective left
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Post by sgtreed24 on Aug 13, 2018 15:50:47 GMT
I feel like if bioware chose a canon ending they would go with Destroy because that makes Shepard successful in his/her mission to stop the Reapers and it's pretty popular with the fanbase, and you could sort of have the we need to explore the milky way to find out what's still out there and what still works in the aftermath.
I think it'd go Destroy > Control > Synthesis.
With Control they could make Shepard the big bad of the sequel and all about how he was supposed to be the "chosen one" and blah blah. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and what not.
I don't know what they could really do with Synthesis... you start off the game already at supposed peak evolutionary form so, what are we trying to do exactly? lol
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 13, 2018 17:59:42 GMT
I feel like if bioware chose a canon ending they would go with Destroy because that makes Shepard successful in his/her mission to stop the Reapers and it's pretty popular with the fanbase, and you could sort of have the we need to explore the milky way to find out what's still out there and what still works in the aftermath. I think it'd go Destroy > Control > Synthesis. With Control they could make Shepard the big bad of the sequel and all about how he was supposed to be the "chosen one" and blah blah. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and what not. I don't know what they could really do with Synthesis... you start off the game already at supposed peak evolutionary form so, what are we trying to do exactly? lol There's the fatal flaw in Synthesis. The Catalyst with his "final evolution". Did that thing not pay any attention to organics for the past billion years. The only way a species stops evolving is when it goes extinct. Maybe that thing thinks that Shepard doesn't know biology and can be fooled? Of the three choices, this is the one that leaves the Catalyst fully intact. I wonder...if the organics are all "Reapified", and the Catalyst controls the Reapers...
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 13, 2018 18:23:05 GMT
This video breaks down the disaster of ME3 and how poor the writing is. I know the video is like an hour long, but the video is worth to watch to get a fresh perspective. Yeah, it was so poorly received that Metacritic scored it 93/100 on Xbox, 93/100 on PS3, 89/100 on PC and 85/100 on WiiU. ME2 got 94/100 on PC, 94/100 PS3 and 96/100 on Xbox 360. If we go back further, to the original, it received 89/100 on PC, 85/100 on PS3 and 91/100 on Xbox 360. (For WiiU, it should be noted that the game makes little sense in the context of the trilogy. It also didn't get a lot of the DLC.) In any case, based on completion of all three games, it's clear that ratings wise it goes ME2 -> ME3 -> ME1. It's clearly not the worst game in the trilogy. People may not have liked the ending but they didn't crucify the game over it.
I'm not saying people don't have the right to dislike the endings. I don't care for it myself, which is why I use MEHEM. I just don't find it useful to complain about how much better you all are with writing than the people at BioWare. We've got some great modders out there who can alter things to their liking (not just endings but a host of things). There are enough people out there who are attached to certain endings that trying to "fix" it will piss some segment of people or other. Just leave it be and let BioWare focus on another galaxy to detach itself from those endings. It ends Shepard's story, it ends the Reapers' story and we move onto something else. Yes, MEA got low ratings, especially in comparison to the MET, but a solid writing team could fix that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 0:57:54 GMT
This video breaks down the disaster of ME3 and how poor the writing is. I know the video is like an hour long, but the video is worth to watch to get a fresh perspective. Yeah, it was so poorly received that Metacritic scored it 93/100 on Xbox, 93/100 on PS3, 89/100 on PC and 85/100 on WiiU. ME2 got 94/100 on PC, 94/100 PS3 and 96/100 on Xbox 360. If we go back further, to the original, it received 89/100 on PC, 85/100 on PS3 and 91/100 on Xbox 360. (For WiiU, it should be noted that the game makes little sense in the context of the trilogy. It also didn't get a lot of the DLC.) In any case, based on completion of all three games, it's clear that ratings wise it goes ME2 -> ME3 -> ME1. It's clearly not the worst game in the trilogy. People may not have liked the ending but they didn't crucify the game over it.
I'm not saying people don't have the right to dislike the endings. I don't care for it myself, which is why I use MEHEM. I just don't find it useful to complain about how much better you all are with writing than the people at BioWare. We've got some great modders out there who can alter things to their liking (not just endings but a host of things). There are enough people out there who are attached to certain endings that trying to "fix" it will piss some segment of people or other. Just leave it be and let BioWare focus on another galaxy to detach itself from those endings. It ends Shepard's story, it ends the Reapers' story and we move onto something else. Yes, MEA got low ratings, especially in comparison to the MET, but a solid writing team could fix that.
dmc1001, you made my day. I would love to copy/paste this into a number of the threads running on this site.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 14, 2018 4:28:36 GMT
Yeah, it was so poorly received that Metacritic scored it 93/100 on Xbox, 93/100 on PS3, 89/100 on PC and 85/100 on WiiU. ME2 got 94/100 on PC, 94/100 PS3 and 96/100 on Xbox 360. If we go back further, to the original, it received 89/100 on PC, 85/100 on PS3 and 91/100 on Xbox 360. (For WiiU, it should be noted that the game makes little sense in the context of the trilogy. It also didn't get a lot of the DLC.) In any case, based on completion of all three games, it's clear that ratings wise it goes ME2 -> ME3 -> ME1. It's clearly not the worst game in the trilogy. People may not have liked the ending but they didn't crucify the game over it.
I'm not saying people don't have the right to dislike the endings. I don't care for it myself, which is why I use MEHEM. I just don't find it useful to complain about how much better you all are with writing than the people at BioWare. We've got some great modders out there who can alter things to their liking (not just endings but a host of things). There are enough people out there who are attached to certain endings that trying to "fix" it will piss some segment of people or other. Just leave it be and let BioWare focus on another galaxy to detach itself from those endings. It ends Shepard's story, it ends the Reapers' story and we move onto something else. Yes, MEA got low ratings, especially in comparison to the MET, but a solid writing team could fix that.
dmc1001 , you made my day. I would love to copy/paste this into a number of the threads running on this site. Go for it.
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Post by Ascend on Aug 14, 2018 12:38:33 GMT
Let's face it there were contradictions abounding in the explanation of the Catalyst. In fact I don't see why we call it the catalyst since, as the word implies, the catalyst is required to make the device fire and clearly that means that Shepard is the catalyst. Nah... That's not how catalysts work. The definition of a catalyst is a substance that is used without being consumed, to speed up or allow a reaction. Shepard is obviously consumed. From that perspective, Shepard cannot be the catalyst, but is more a substance in the reaction. If you have a catalyst but lack one of the substances, the reaction does not take place. Shepard being required does not necessarily mean he is the catalyst. It has been stated multiple times that the Citadel is the catalyst. The childlike being is likely the AI that controls the Citadel. This video breaks down the disaster of ME3 and how poor the writing is. I know the video is like an hour long, but the video is worth to watch to get a fresh perspective. It's smudboy. He has made these videos for ME1 and ME2 also. He has a LOT to bash regarding all the games, not just ME3. ME3 is still the most underrated game of the trilogy, and ME2 the most overrated one.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 12:45:51 GMT
dmc1001 , you made my day. I would love to copy/paste this into a number of the threads running on this site. Go for it. Oops -I highlighted the part about MEHEM by mistake. As you know, I even prefer the endings as they were originally written; and I'm basically OK with just the EC. I don't mind that people have written mods like MEHEM though since I support people using their own imaginations to fill in the games they play. I view a mod like MEHEM much the same way I view Fanfics. It's not a bad thing... I just wish people would stop complaining and implying that they themselves are better writers than the writers of the game just because they personally would write something differently. They should just go ahead and write their Fanfic then and be done with it.
For the sake of finally putting something in the poll... I voted for Control... anticipating then that they might make Shepard into the baddie encountered by the Initiative upon returning to the Milky Way... Ryder vs. Shepard for ME5 (play as either).
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Post by Ascend on Aug 14, 2018 13:25:23 GMT
If they choose destroy as canon I'm ditching Mass Effect.
Take note BioWare.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 14, 2018 14:12:36 GMT
If they choose the green as canon, I will buy the game so I can have a good laugh If they choose the blue for canon, I will buy the game to play it just to say I played it. Destroy for canon. excellent
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 14, 2018 16:10:51 GMT
Oops -I highlighted the part about MEHEM by mistake. As you know, I even prefer the endings as they were originally written; and I'm basically OK with just the EC. I don't mind that people have written mods like MEHEM though since I support people using their own imaginations to fill in the games they play. I view a mod like MEHEM much the same way I view Fanfics. It's not a bad thing... I just wish people would stop complaining and implying that they themselves are better writers than the writers of the game just because they personally would write something differently. They should just go ahead and write their Fanfic then and be done with it.
For the sake of finally putting something in the poll... I voted for Control... anticipating then that they might make Shepard into the baddie encountered by the Initiative upon returning to the Milky Way... Ryder vs. Shepard for ME5 (play as either).
I prefer MEHEM but I'd still go for EC if I didn't have the mod. I found Control to be very depressing so I wouldn't choose it again. All I have left is Refusal, which I also suspect I'll dislike.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 14, 2018 16:19:26 GMT
Refuse I don't care for. Shepard talks big for a few seconds, but ends up looking like Commander dumba** after the thing says 'SO BE IT'.
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