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Post by miso9 on Apr 2, 2017 0:27:02 GMT
I have a question to people with Prima Guide. A poster in Suvi thread claimed that walkthrough for her romance has pictures with male Ryder in it, even a pic showing Scott having an option to kiss her. Is this true? Because if it is then it would be basically confirmation that Suvi, the only lesbian character in Andromeda, was not even written as a lesbian but just locked for female players at the last minute, which would explain why as far as I know she never gives any hints that she's gay unlike Gil, even to male Ryder who tries to hit on her. This is not the case in the online version. Here's what it looks like on the online version: I recall that print version in the same section also shows that she's only romanceable by women since there were pics of exactly those pages on this thread before, but that poster seemed to talk about different segment. I'll quote her:
nova: So, I was browsing the Prima guide...and in the walkthrough for Suvi's final romantic relationship quest, they've got photos of Scott in the scene with her instead of Sara. Ugh. thelastsupersaiyan87: You still get the quest as Scott you just don't get the romance content nova: That's not how the walkthrough reads at all. "Continue to choose passionate replies to take the interaction into more intimate territory, until you receive a Kiss prompt and the conversation option to be exclusive with her." <Insert photo of Scott here> EDIT: Looking at it more closely, the photo with Scott even has the "Kiss" action prompt in it in the corner. So yeah....
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Post by miso9 on Apr 2, 2017 0:17:32 GMT
I have a question to people with Prima Guide. A poster in Suvi thread claimed that walkthrough for her romance has pictures with male Ryder in it, even a pic showing Scott having an option to kiss her. Is this true? Because if it is then it would be basically confirmation that Suvi, the only lesbian character in Andromeda, was not even written as a lesbian but just locked for female players at the last minute, which would explain why as far as I know she never gives any hints that she's gay unlike Gil, even to male Ryder who tries to hit on her. Wait Suvi doesn't no hetero Scott? That's lame. Like what was the point in deciding to give characters orientations if they don't you know be said orientation? Also Lexa is still the one true heda. She just says a vague 'I prefer to keep it professional' to male Ryder, while Cora, Liam and Gil say right away that they are not into because they like men/women.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 2, 2017 0:10:31 GMT
I have a question to people with Prima Guide. A poster in Suvi thread claimed that walkthrough for her romance has pictures with male Ryder in it, even a pic showing Scott having an option to kiss her. Is this true? Because if it is then it would be basically confirmation that Suvi, the only lesbian character in Andromeda, was not even written as a lesbian but just locked for female players at the last minute, which would explain why as far as I know she never gives any hints that she's gay unlike Gil, even to male Ryder who tries to hit on her.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 1, 2017 23:40:19 GMT
You still get the quest as Scott you just don't get the romance content That's not how the walkthrough reads at all. "Continue to choose passionate replies to take the interaction into more intimate territory, until you receive a Kiss prompt and the conversation option to be exclusive with her." <Insert photo of Scott here> EDIT: Looking at it more closely, the photo with Scott even has the "Kiss" action prompt in it in the corner. So yeah.... Is this real? From what I recall those guides are written some time ahead based on materials sent by developers, and therefore there can be differences compared to what's in final game (similarly IIRC Prima guide for ME2 implied there are same-sex romances and indeed they were - but got cut), so if what you're saying is true then it appears Suvi was not even written as a lesbian, but another romance interest for straight men. And that would explain why, unlike every other exclusive romance option, Suvi never mentions her sexuality (at least from what I know as I'm 40 hours into the game, where despite never hitting on Gil he already made me know he's gay, while I know that Suvi doesn't say it even to a male character who hits on her). She was apparently written for straight men so of course she wouldn't mention she likes girls. If that's true, I'm beyond disappointed on Bioware, because it means lesbian players are complete afterthought to them, not worthy any special content. Say what you want about options gay men got but at least Bioware felt the need to provide them actual representation, even if of questionable quality, as Gil was obviously from the start written as a gay man. We apparently didn't deserve such recognition, and only at the last minute someone realized that it would look bad if male Ryder could romance all the women, so they just locked for female players one of the romances they intended for men, of course the one with the least content.
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Post by miso9 on Mar 25, 2017 11:20:41 GMT
So I've read on some other forum that Suvi gets married with Kallo. What's this about??? Don't worry, it's just one of Jaal's little "pranks," where he teaches Liam an Angaran song, saying it was a sailor's song (if I remember this correctly) while it's actually an Angaran wedding ritual, which he then performed for Suvi and Kallo. So by Angaran standards you could say the two of them would unknowingly be wed, provided Liam is seen as the proper person to conduct such a ritual So devs thought it would be funny to make the only lesbian character get tricked into marrying a man? I understand it happens even if we romance her? And by the way, I tried to find it out for a while to no success, does she ever express her sexuality through the whole game or does she remain 'coded straight' unless we play a woman who hits on her - and even then is it ever made clear she is indeed a lesbian and not just happens to love Sara as a person, not a gender?
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Post by miso9 on Mar 24, 2017 21:02:23 GMT
So I've read on some other forum that Suvi gets married with Kallo. What's this about???
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Post by miso9 on Mar 22, 2017 14:18:47 GMT
After seeing that Jaal scene and knowing that apparently there were some intentions to make him bi, I wonder if perhaps after developing his sex scene with female character model in default they tried to copy-paste it on male model the same way "lesbian" sex scene with Peebee was made, but this time it wouldn't make any sense at all because mRyder wouldn't have a penis, so instead of "wasting" resources on additional animations only gays would get they decided to cut out the m/m side of the romance.
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Post by miso9 on Mar 22, 2017 10:33:18 GMT
I'm not trying to be snarky here, but I want to hear their thought process behind Gil's romance. I really want to know why they felt that this would be a good idea. I'd like to know how they came to the point when they thought, "Let's give them a kid." In my opinion, it seems like they are trying to help convey the idea that gay people can be good parents too. ME3 showed us that gay people can be married with no stigma, so I suspect this is a natural progression of the idea. So I can guess what they were trying to do, but I don't feel it was a great call. I'm mixed on the whole "the PC becoming a parent when the galaxy is at stake" idea anyhow. If they start off as a parent, then that's one thing. Making it a part of the romance isn't sitting well. I know that's just me and my hangup. The thing is, I've been imagining if they had done this with say, Scott and Cora. Made it to where a baby was a mandatory part of the romance. I have a feeling that the blowback would be a lot stronger than anything that's come out of the LGBT+ decisions so far with ME:A. You're questioning their decision of forcing choices on non-straight players? Like female Shepard without meta gaming waking up after having sex with Javik? Imagine they pull the same shit and have male Shepard wakes up suddenly with Cortez randomly because they drank too much and see how the straight guys react. This is not to mention the weird date rape Shepard, using her position and keep giving James more alcohol to impair his judgement so she could sleep with him despite James specifically told her that he's not comfortable with it several times. Team Mass Effect has never been about political correctness, they have never been a SJW ally. They only do what they did because team Dragon Age created more inclusive games which forcing them to include options instead of doing it voluntary. Wait what? I never played any ME3 DLC so I assume it's that Citadel one, which I knew till now only from YT videos with Traynor content which showed they completely reduced her into mere object of male gaze so I definitely wasn't going to pay for something like that. I was always pissed that even with this newfound "acceptance" of ME devs female Shepard in ME3 is still forced to flirt with James whether we like it or not, just like with Jacob in ME2, but devs actually forced straight sex on us as well? Despicable.
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Post by miso9 on Mar 21, 2017 17:10:02 GMT
I checked her twitter feed, and there's a post from 3/15 about how she didn't work on Andromeda at all. Whaaat? Then I've been lied to. I was told she was the assistant writer on it. Let me guess, by people who scream that "SJWs are ruining our game!!!"? Well, it's a hint it's better to take such sources with a great dose of skepticism. Last time I checked they also made up some lie about female animator to justify another campaign of online harassment.
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Post by miso9 on Mar 21, 2017 16:12:31 GMT
I understand that some lesbian players are angry at reused scenes in PeeBee romances, but at least you have something to complaing about unlike gay players.. Also there is cool romance with Vetra, and Suvi who is more ''important'' on ship than Gil (sad but true), she also comments sometimes during missions etc. Straight players can completely ignore Gil and have 100% ''straight'' game. In case you're referring to my comment I just wanted to say that my intention wasn't to suggest we've got it worse or anything, I responded to opinion that Bioware cares about gay people because Peebee and Sara have a sex scene. But speaking of Suvi, it seems that very likely straight male players can still have 100% straight game even while trying to flirt with her. She doesn't tell them that she likes women or anything, just that she prefers to keep it professional. So unless they read forums they will have no idea she's supposed to be anything but straight, gay stays in closet hidden from straight eyes.
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Post by miso9 on Mar 21, 2017 11:27:31 GMT
BTW, asking those who play the game already, is it ever pointed out in her dialogues etc. that she likes (only) women so people could stop trying to suggest that she's asexual/bisexual but just not liking Scott/anything but gay? I wrote few days ago about my concerns about it and seeing how gay men have been treated it doesn't look promising.
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Post by miso9 on Mar 21, 2017 11:18:38 GMT
As I said in the romance thread, that's the beauty of ambiguity. You see the scene be like that, I see the scene be like something else, and both interpretations are correct. I see it more like you. The ambiguity lets the player formulate in their imagination from the info they're given in the way they desire. But one needs to have a huge imagination to desexualize that scene in their mind. The sex itself is not showed because MEA team obviously would not bother to 'waste' so much resources on gay people, but the context of the writing clearly implies what follows that scene. And sorry, I'm just not OK with any interpretations that make Suvi not a gay woman.
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Post by miso9 on Mar 21, 2017 10:05:22 GMT
The m/m romances could've also been effected by cuts in order to bring the game to ship. So it may not have been original intent. Just pointing that out. Stuff gets cut in development all the time. Not good if it effected the 2 options we have, but there's defo not an "anti-gay" agenda going on. Peebee has a full on scene with Sara for one. And there's gays EVERYWHERE in the game. Tons of LGBT npc representation. The turian pathfinders were a gay couple even! Peebee's scene with Sara is a reused scene with Scott though and it's obvious that people who designed it were only concerned about how it should look like with a male character, then just copy-pasted it with female model. The love scene in exclusive lesbian romance is even more bare bones than the one of Scott and Gil. As for the reason for the cuts, they had time and finances to make 5 options for straight men.
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Post by miso9 on Mar 20, 2017 23:35:41 GMT
Quality over quantity. F/f romances in DAI sucked all the way. I would say it's a matter of perspective because I find the gay options for DAI sucks, Dorian's story is basically a writer's mouthpiece to retell the same storyline about gay conversion that had been told hundreds of time which focused too much on him being gay while Iron Bull is a promiscuous bisexual and forced BDSM on you or you can't romance him, telling you that he knows what you need better than yourself. No gay marriage, and no happy ending with Dorian. At the end of the day, gay never has more options than any of the groups, not straight men, not straight women, not gay women, in ANY game, not even if you go back to Knight of the Old Republic, not even Jade Empire. I remember that some time ago Gaider in response to criticism about Sera wrote on his Tumblr that the writing team knew very well that 50% of the players will hate her but they wouldn't change a thing anyway. He continued it with explanations that this is what makes a strong, interesting character, though from my perspective that wasn't important. What really lacked in that speech was a moment of reflection, that Sera was the first lesbian character in DA and the first lesbian companion in BW games (at least since Juhani). And one of the only two potential options for lesbian players he gleefully admitted to be intentionally designed to be hated by as many players as possible. So it was basically admitted Sera wasn't made for lesbian players, she was an artwork done for art itself. Meanwhile Dorian certainly was written with a lot of respect with gay players in mind, by a gay man. And aside from Sera, we had advisor romance which lacked content compared to the ones with companions. Josephine's romance arc was clearly written for straight men, since it was heavily based on specific heteronormative customs that didn't make sense even within the context of world's lore. Nothing was rewritten for female character at all. It was still better than how you guys got treated now no doubt, but when it comes to DAI alone I'd argue we got the short end of the stick.
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Post by miso9 on Mar 20, 2017 22:30:41 GMT
That would mean no 'homosexual lesbian' in this game. Not cool wishing to take out representation of a different sexual minority to replace it with our own. i know that some people believe that you can't be asexual and a lesbian at the same time. i respect that i guess? but i disagree. (fwiw i am a lesbian, and i'm not ace.) don't much feel like discussing it, i feel like it's been rehashed a couple times here already. Asexual lesbians don't feel sexual attraction to women, they love women completely platonically. Their sexuality is very different than mine, according to every clinical definition we have different sexual orientations, their experiences don't resemble experiences of people who share my sexuality. And what bothers me in it the most is not even the appropriation and erasure, but the validation of homophobic stereotypes about lesbians it would de facto lead to. Oh hey, this is a lesbian who doesn't even like vagina, guess lesbian bed death is true, heh heh.
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Post by miso9 on Mar 20, 2017 21:23:27 GMT
if suvi has no sex scene, i'm honestly hoping she's an ace lesbian. explicitly so. i really hope it's not a case of "oh, you guys definitely had sex but we couldn't be bothered to animate a scene, enjoy your totally equal crewmate romance! " that probably won't be the case, but i can dream. That would mean no 'homosexual lesbian' in this game. Not cool wishing to take out representation of a different sexual minority to replace it with our own.
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Post by miso9 on Mar 20, 2017 20:53:47 GMT
That's actually untrue, at least when it comes to American TV shows. Currently, both bi/gay men and bi/gay women make about 2% of all characters on television, but men make 3% of all TV deaths. Women - whole 10% of all deaths.
Source: www.vox.com/a/tv-deaths-lgbt-diversityWhat's interesting is that among that 10% of bi/gay dead female characters the majority were specifically lesbians since the story usually looks like that -- the lesbian is a minor recurring character while bisexual woman is a regular who was initially de facto straight but at one point showrunners decide to give her some female fling - aforementioned lesbian guest character. Then the fling dies, bisexual woman comes back to male lead and showrunners are congratulating themselves how progressive they are. One example is on my avatar. Nah, Lexa is alive, well kinda (in the alternate universe?) the thing is that almost all shows don't really kill their characters these days, especially shows like Arrow, Flash, The Vampire Diaries etc, they somehow almost always come back alive (or in different form/show like Sara Lance from Arrow to Legends of Tomorrow or her sister from Arrow to Flash Earth 2 or whatever) even for a while Nah she's dead, just like both lesbians on Vampire Diaries. It's important, straight characters that come back to life in that show.
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Post by miso9 on Mar 20, 2017 20:37:23 GMT
That's actually untrue, at least when it comes to American TV shows. Currently, both bi/gay men and bi/gay women make about 2% of all characters on television, but men make 3% of all TV deaths. Women - whole 10% of all deaths.
Source: www.vox.com/a/tv-deaths-lgbt-diversityWhat's interesting is that among that 10% of bi/gay dead female characters the majority were specifically lesbians since the story usually looks like that -- the lesbian is a minor recurring character while bisexual woman is a regular who was initially de facto straight but at one point showrunners decide to give her some female fling - aforementioned lesbian guest character. Then the fling dies, bisexual woman comes back to male lead and showrunners are congratulating themselves how progressive they are. One example is on my avatar.This was... the ugliest thing I've seen in my life. Seriously. No one can beat Jason Rothenberg when it comes to trating LGBT like trash. Compared to him BW is all honey. I think it's pointless to argue who's worse. You could say that JR treated lesbian fans shamelessly* while using gay men to deflect criticism, while with this game BW treated gay male fans shamelessly, using lesbians to deflect criticism. But one thing I know for sure, Bioware would never give us Lexa. And if they did, they would make her a straight woman. EDIT: just noticed I wrote "shamefully" instead of "shamelessly". Apologize for my English, it's not my first language.
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Post by miso9 on Mar 20, 2017 20:03:08 GMT
Let's be honest here. Besides Bioware what other AAA company spends even this much time creating LGBT content? Seriously curious. Hmm...can't think of ANY and that's just being honest. And I'm not talking about the usual F/F route most gaming companies take, still two females and guys don't mind that much. M/M romance stories in big games? lol...you will never find it. And Mislav from TW3 doesn't fucking count, that's a tragedy, not a love story. It's the same tragedy that most gay male characters face in fiction books, films, etc. The death of one lover due to the worlds 'hatred' of them while the bi/gay females are very present and alive.That's actually untrue, at least when it comes to American TV shows. Currently, both bi/gay men and bi/gay women make about 2% of all characters on television, but men make 3% of all TV deaths. Women - whole 10% of all deaths.
Source: www.vox.com/a/tv-deaths-lgbt-diversityWhat's interesting is that among that 10% of bi/gay dead female characters the majority were specifically lesbians since the story usually looks like that -- the lesbian is a minor recurring character while bisexual woman is a regular who was initially de facto straight but at one point showrunners decide to give her some female fling - aforementioned lesbian guest character. Then the fling dies, bisexual woman comes back to male lead and showrunners are congratulating themselves how progressive they are. One example is on my avatar.
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Post by miso9 on Mar 19, 2017 0:19:33 GMT
so, crewmembers have around 30% of the overall content of squadmates? yes of course, bioware, if you just slap the same amount of romance content on everybody it means they are all equally developed! amazing! awesome button! CC faces, absolutely no promo, barely any "much bang, so wow" references from devs... and conveniently it's the gay and lesbian character that gets such a treatment. so pissed off that i'm so pissed of at this extra predictable revelation. my god. 30%. Suvi when flirted by a male doesn't say she likes women though, just a generic response to keep it professional so male players will probably get no clue she's supposed to anything but straight. It is different for every other exclusive romanceable character (Liam, Cora and Gil tell you right away that they like only women/men), so considering those late orientation changes I wonder if she wasn't originally written as bisexual.
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Post by miso9 on Mar 19, 2017 0:00:53 GMT
In every dictionary lesbian is explained to be a synonym to female homosexual. Homosexuality and asexuality are two different sexual orientations. I understand you speak about romantic/sexual division, specifically in this case "homoromantic asexual". But there are possible different combinations. If homoromantic asexual is a lesbian, would homoromantic heterosexual be a lesbian as well? And aromantic homosexual (Shane from L word sorta like) wouldn't therefore be a lesbian? I personally think that using labels of different sexual minorities is damaging appropriation, especially while like in this case it's basically encouraging homophobic myths about that minority. Other way around. You can't be homoromantic heterosexual. That makes no sense. Such a thing is something someone would say to hide their heterosexuality and make them seem more approachable by the LGBT+ community, or someone who is still experimenting with the idea. Asexuality, however, is different. It's the lack of a sex drive or the lack of a desire to have sex. If you're attracted to women but don't want/are disgusted by the idea of having sex, you're still homosexual. And vice versa with romantic orientation. Technically speaking, you shouldn't attach any kind of romantic orientation to heterosexuality, unless that orientation is aro/ace itself. OK, this is starting to get really offtopic but I think it's important to point out one thing. Asexuality is legit sexual orientation so it's not merely lack of sex drive. The level of sex drive is not set in stone, it fluctuates and is largely dependent on environmental factors, like most importantly sex hormones. Asexuality means feeling no sexual attraction to anyone. So no, asexual lesbian would not be homosexual, she would feel no attraction to women, she could only claim romantic feelings to one specific woman. But here's the question, what are romantic feelings exactly when there is absolutely no sexual attraction?
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miso9
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Post by miso9 on Mar 18, 2017 23:42:17 GMT
Yep. Also Sera had lots of sexual banter, she made eyes at Cassandra, can hook up with Dagna, was sweating over big muscular women... her sex scene might not have been essential but it was still important. I'd rather know than have it be left to my imagination. Having the option to pursue sex or not is a good idea in general, I think, whether because one's PC is asexual or their character just isn't ready to take that next step. But myself, I prefer to know we're gittin sum. But I think a huge part of the frustration here is that lesbians are often portrayed as sort of sexless. The "lesbian bed death" stereotype or the idea that you're only with women because you're afraid of REAL SEX™ (with a man ofc aurrggh). So these situations are always going to stir up lots of feelings and hurt. It might be exposure to different portrayals but it seems that the completely opposite stereotype is more common. Then again, I'm not tracking lesbian scenes across mediums to keep score. What you're referring to is "lesbian" scenes for male gaze. It's not meant to give the viewer an impression women are doing it better without a man, but rather that they're doing it for a man.
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miso9
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Post by miso9 on Mar 18, 2017 23:18:48 GMT
Suvi being ace means she wouldn't be a lesbian. So gay women would have no representation whatsoever, and equally troubling, since most people have no deep understanding of this stuff which is why representation is so important, as she's "locked" for women only (and considering that she's already thought to be lesbian), this would only fuel damaging homophobic stereotypes about gay women, that it's all about 'feels', holding hands and cuddling, but not sexual desire since for "real sex" a man is needed. No! That actually isn't true! If she is homoromantic, she is still lesbian (or may still identify as lesbian). That said, I think making the only lesbian character a nonsexual romance is pretty much bullshit... Also, not sure what her reasons for not having sex will be, if it's fade to black, or she says no because of religion (not asexual), or if she's genuinely asexual. In every dictionary lesbian is explained to be a synonym to female homosexual. Homosexuality and asexuality are two different sexual orientations. I understand you speak about romantic/sexual division, specifically in this case "homoromantic asexual". But there are possible different combinations. If homoromantic asexual is a lesbian, would homoromantic heterosexual be a lesbian as well? And aromantic homosexual (Shane from L word sorta like) wouldn't therefore be a lesbian? I personally think that using labels of different sexual minorities is damaging appropriation, especially while like in this case it's basically encouraging homophobic myths about that minority.
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miso9
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Post by miso9 on Mar 18, 2017 22:55:09 GMT
In Romance thread asheborn who's datamining the game pointed out that "Suvi/Gil have same amount of romantic interactions but around 30% of amount of dialogues squadmates are getting".
So much for all options are equally fleshed out. And most likely they don't have love scenes either.
I also read that it appears some LIs were originally straight but made bi late in development. So the thing I spoke about yesterday, Suvi being singled out in lacking any definitive statement about her sexuality unlike every other exclusive romanceable character, could really be a result of being originally written as bisexual.
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miso9
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Post by miso9 on Mar 18, 2017 22:12:40 GMT
I swear, if there is a really good ace romance in the game, then, for the most part, does that mean there is legit a good romance option for everyone in the game? Sure preferences and such, if you aren't attracted to Cora or something, but at least you have Peebee and Vetra, but like, for the most part, I think they've done really well. It seems most get a good, long, story tied romance option, and at least one more as well. They done good. They done good. And my apologies to any Suvi fans, but I really personally hope she is an ace option for Hanako and the other ace players! Suvi being ace means she wouldn't be a lesbian. So gay women would have no representation whatsoever, and equally troubling, since most people have no deep understanding of this stuff which is why representation is so important, as she's "locked" for women only (and considering that she's already thought to be lesbian), this would only fuel damaging homophobic stereotypes about gay women, that it's all about 'feels', holding hands and cuddling, but not sexual desire since for "real sex" a man is needed.
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