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Post by alanc9 on Oct 12, 2017 6:56:45 GMT
That's probably true, but I'm not sure it matters. If 90% of your audience has bought into a false paradigm, you've got a problem if you go against it.
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 12, 2017 8:29:36 GMT
Yeah, that's a fair point. People's perception of reality overriding reality.
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Post by wright1978 on Oct 12, 2017 9:08:22 GMT
Maybe all DA4 PCs could simply be presented as slaves to some NPC. That covers most of the reaction issues. My very large issue with any slave background would be in the plausibility of that character suddenly going from a despised nobody in a highly stratified Tevinter society to the sort of influence that a PC wields & i'd really prefer they don't have to resort a glowing hand to try & justify it again. I think it would be better if we started at a higher status such as Laetan for human/elven or in the dwarven case a respected family
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Post by river82 on Oct 12, 2017 9:34:03 GMT
I would like to think that if I can relate to a human living in those conditions, that if I can put myself into the mindset of a human living in that setting, then I can do the same for a dwarf, elf, or orc without expending too much more effort. Well elves are typically portrayed as "long lived" and considering reality is warped by a person's perceptions, how a being sees the world when they can live for a thousand years will undoubtedly be different to how a being sees the world when they live for a hundred years. Even in Dragon Age where elves have lost their immortality, the survivors have to live with the fact that they are a fallen race and quickened, once immortal and untouchable now reduced to the world's laughing stock, and this would also affect how they see the world, themselves, and other races. Orcs ... well, it depends on which orcs you talk about. Orcs from Lord of the Rings were once elves and turned into Orcs through torture and dark magics. Would this effect how orcs see the world? Yeah, of course. Would humans be easier to relate to? You betcha. Dwarves are often portrayed as stunted, stocky humans with a love for ale and good at crafts so you may have a point here. That being said, in the Lord of the Rings Dwarves would typically live for about 200-250 years easily, and this long lived nature would once again affect how they perceive the world. It's hard for people to relate to others when their sense of time is so much different from ours. For example, a human who lives to 80 would feel as though the middle of their life was in their mid-twenties, generally because time seems to get faster the more we age because the amount of time passed relative to our age varies. What would this feel like for someone who lives for a thousand years? As people we relate easier to other people we can identify with. It's hard to relate to people with much longer lifespans, it's hard to relate to those who were once as Gods and now have to interact with those who caused their downfall, it's hard to relate to those that only exist through torture and dark magics, and so humans are often who we best relate to in a fantasy setting. Sure in a fantasy setting humans wouldn't be easy to relate to because the world is so different, but they'd be more easy than a lot of the other races I believe. Although that depends what the other races are.
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Post by mattjamho on Oct 12, 2017 12:32:52 GMT
I think a lot of it is self insert as well.
The majority of players pick the choices and decisions that they personally would, rather than role playing. I know my first play through of any game is always human, and then I pick the next based on their portrayal in game (I played an elf in Inquisition on the second run through, because of all the elven content.)
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Post by vertigomez on Oct 12, 2017 15:28:21 GMT
Maybe all DA4 PCs could simply be presented as slaves to some NPC. That covers most of the reaction issues. My very large issue with any slave background would be in the plausibility of that character suddenly going from a despised nobody in a highly stratified Tevinter society to the sort of influence that a PC wields & i'd really prefer they don't have to resort a glowing hand to try & justify it again. I think it would be better if we started at a higher status such as Laetan for human/elven or in the dwarven case a respected family Brosca and Tabris are despised nobodies. Heck, for a good portion of DAO any Grey Warden is a despised nobody because Loghain's been spreading rumors that you offed Cailan. I think a lot of it is self insert as well. The majority of players pick the choices and decisions that they personally would, rather than role playing. I know my first play through of any game is always human, and then I pick the next based on their portrayal in game (I played an elf in Inquisition on the second run through, because of all the elven content.) I think this is definitely the case a lot of the time. I never self-insert (if I suddenly found myself in the DA or ME setting.... I would just die immediately. I'd be Mook #2763) so I can't really relate to that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2017 17:03:47 GMT
Sure, but I still think it's lazy writing. There's nothing new or innovative about writing humans as The Best Most Prominent and Most Average™. Maybe it is or maybe they are afraid to innovate and prefer to go with something that most of the player would like, or at least more than play with only elf/dwarf/qunari. I honestly would like if the PC has one race only, in my opinion it doesn't have to be human, if this game is in tevinter it could be elf or qunari, and make the dialogues, history and quest to match that race and not only few dialogue like in DAI but i don't think that would happend and not because of the lacks of ideas but the preference for the human race that most of the players has. It's a bit of a chicken and an egg though. I am positive that a lot more people played an elf in DA3 because a female elf was endowed with more content than any other protagonist on a single play-through. When a class story in SWTOR was lending itself to a certain race strongly, like a pure-blooded Sith for the Warrior, it did prompt a lot of players make a non-human character. But it works only to a certain extent. Given equal content distribution in DAO, though, were the Dwarves had lovingly crafted content, the preference did go to the Humans. It is overall a fascinating thing, human vs non-human in the video-games. I am pretty certain that there is a subset of players that go for that "anything but a Human!" button vs the majority that does go for the: "Human, duh!". Sometimes, I wonder if that's some crazy manifestation of an ancestral memory back from the times when Human Sapience whipped out and/or assimilated the less successful branches of the human tree. Maybe some of us are still wistful for all those Denisovans and Neanderthals and whatever other subspecies or species we'd lost along the evolutionary pathway.
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Post by vertigomez on Oct 12, 2017 17:12:09 GMT
Maybe some of us are still wistful for all those Denisovans and Neanderthals and whatever other subspecies or species we'd lost along the evolutionary pathway. I laughed because it's true. I have bizarre Neandertal nostalgia and often wonder what it'd be like - and what our relationship to them would be - if they'd survived as a separate (sub)species.
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Post by Lazarillo on Nov 7, 2017 4:31:38 GMT
Maybe all DA4 PCs could simply be presented as slaves to some NPC. That covers most of the reaction issues. My very large issue with any slave background would be in the plausibility of that character suddenly going from a despised nobody in a highly stratified Tevinter society to the sort of influence that a PC wields & i'd really prefer they don't have to resort a glowing hand to try & justify it again. I think it would be better if we started at a higher status such as Laetan for human/elven or in the dwarven case a respected family To be fair, Bioware's done it before. The Sith Inquisitor story in SWTOR basically tells this kind of "pariah to power" tale, and it's one of the best in said game.
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Post by rahavan on Nov 7, 2017 6:02:15 GMT
My very large issue with any slave background would be in the plausibility of that character suddenly going from a despised nobody in a highly stratified Tevinter society to the sort of influence that a PC wields & i'd really prefer they don't have to resort a glowing hand to try & justify it again. I think it would be better if we started at a higher status such as Laetan for human/elven or in the dwarven case a respected family To be fair, Bioware's done it before. The Sith Inquisitor story in SWTOR basically tells this kind of "pariah to power" tale, and it's one of the best in said game. I would vehemently disagree with you on that. The inquisitor is fundamentally hobbled by the ghosts being your power(not coming from the player) and and one of your companions being a big ol fuck you if you're Dark side. The only thing the SI did that was bettering themselves was in Act one and learning how to handle multiple ghosts. Then again if were looking for good story in swtor its few and far between. I would really like to see your class influence you back story more than race. Mages should be of the higher class and warriors and rogues could be a tevienter solider. I still kinda want qunari to be playable but if it comes at a cost to the other races I can live without it. For real though I could be shoehorned into any race but dwarves and be okay.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 7, 2017 8:46:40 GMT
Why does the PC immediately have to exert influence? It could be something that you earn over the course of the game. If they gave the slave PC the option of siding either with Tevinter or the Qun (I am not saying they will) then it would be perfectly easy to gain status with the latter if you demonstrated the right qualities. As for Tevinter, may be you could save a leading Magister from death and be suitably rewarded, first being granted their freedom and then being made their heir (that is, of course, the plot in Ben Hur) or at least a favoured figure in their household. If you know the right people and are suitably ambitious it is possible to rise in Tevinter society far more easily than it is in, say, Orlais. It helps, of course, if you have magic but in an all out war situation, which we are likely to encounter next game, a charismatic mundane general will be equally valued.
To my mind, having a plot where you genuinely start at the bottom and work your way up through society, observing the different layers as you progress, would be interesting. That way you learn about the culture through direct observation rather than just someone expounding on it to you in a Q&A lore dump. As for the family aspect, you could have a parent or sibling from whom you were separated, possibly as a child before the start of the game, so your personal quest is trying to track them down. This would be the same whatever the race.
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Post by Felya87 on Nov 7, 2017 10:29:02 GMT
The only problem I can see with a slave background, is just in the execution: in both DAI and MEA I felt the "rise to nothing to hero/leader" was way too rushed: basically one or two missions and the protagonist was respected by everyone. In a way it was better done in DAO. Even with the Warden being somewhat listened to (many times with not much convinction or even with ostility) because of bing part of the Gray Warden, we had to work hard to get the respect of the various fractions, and I had the actual feeling my Warden gained her respect with her actions and hard work. So, if our character in DA4 have to work hard like the warden to get things done, it will work well. If instead she/he just have to make the tutotial and she/he is the boss... well, is too repetitive, and not much interesting for me.
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Post by helios969 on Nov 7, 2017 10:30:29 GMT
My very large issue with any slave background would be in the plausibility of that character suddenly going from a despised nobody in a highly stratified Tevinter society to the sort of influence that a PC wields & i'd really prefer they don't have to resort a glowing hand to try & justify it again. I think it would be better if we started at a higher status such as Laetan for human/elven or in the dwarven case a respected family To be fair, Bioware's done it before. The Sith Inquisitor story in SWTOR basically tells this kind of "pariah to power" tale, and it's one of the best in said game. A bit off topic but I'd consider that my 2nd favorite playthrough...with my male Smuggler being by far my favorite. Some of the situations were completely hilarious. On topic, not opposed to nonhuman races but they would need to be implemented much better than Inquisition or I'd prefer staying human for thematic purposes. It's hard to imagine playing as a Qunari at all but then we don't know if Tevinter has a population of Tal Vashoth helping with the war effort. If included I want to see everything from suspicion and fear to open hostility toward the PC with some avenues straight up closed...requiring an alternative path to complete. I don't need an Origin-type playthrough to establish my character...a similar Q&A with Josephine would do the trick, but the world reactivity needs to be there or it breaks immersion. One of DAI's key issues imo. I would use three pieces of background info to determine conversation variations: Race, class, and some basic background choice (former slave, minor noble, mercenary/thieves' guild, maybe exiled Dwarf/Dalish Elf...)
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Post by shechinah on Nov 7, 2017 11:03:43 GMT
To my mind, having a plot where you genuinely start at the bottom and work your way up through society, observing the different layers as you progress, would be interesting. That way you learn about the culture through direct observation rather than just someone expounding on it to you in a Q&A lore dump. That's a significant part of why slave origin is on my wish list for Dragon Age 4.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 7, 2017 13:18:07 GMT
That said, I thought the race selection was stupid and non-sensical for the main story. What is anybody but a human doing there in the first place? That was the point of the simple origins we got, to explain why everyone is there. I'm of the view that the only combinations that make sense are human mage, elf mage (non-Daish, part of the Circle), human non-mage (but only if templar is specified), and dwarf (the Carta connection with lyrium was a clever idea). I thought the qunari reason seemed silly -- yes, even though we do meet a Qunari merc later on. For DAI, they could easily have had elf be a second race since there are (non Dalish) elves in Circles. However, the elf bits would have had much less significance for that origin. I say this as someone whose canon character is a non-mage Trevelyan, whom I also don't think has much of a place at the Conclave.
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Post by pinkjellybeans on Nov 7, 2017 13:19:28 GMT
The last thing I want is for the new protagonist to have the same amount of power and influence the Inquisitor had. My hopes for DA4's protagonist is that they will work mostly underground as some sort of spy or something, so it makes sense for them to be a nobody (and we'll have the freedom to do things the way we want, as opposed to being stuck as a goody two shoes). If this will actually happen in DA4, then multiple races would make sense if they have a slave background coming for the first time to Tevinter from a different part of Thedas. This will make the exposure to Tevinter a lot more smoother because it's the first time both the protagonist and the player is there, so learning the lore and how things work in general will be a lot more convincing too. This is the only way I see multiple races working while leaving Bioware time and resources to actually make them worth it (meaning, they will actually impact the game as you go through it). Otherwise I think a human only protagonist with different backgrounds will be a lot more rewarding because we would get to experience Tevinter's lore first hand by having direct contact with it as a Tevinter citizen. There are ways to get information across to the player about the place you're in without having to make your character sound like they have amnesia and need to be reminded of how things work. Honestly, it would be a waste to not give the players the opportunity to be from Tevinter when there are so many different and interesting backgrounds you can have.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 7, 2017 14:30:39 GMT
I remember back when the first announced the elf character would be Dalish I was asking the question "Why on earth would they be at the Conclave?" I thought perhaps it was going to be a case their clan was in the vicinity so they thought they would take a look. Not a bit of it, apparently they travelled there all the way from the Freemarches. I had to invent a whole backstory for myself to make sense of how they would have heard about the Conclave, why they decided to travel there and why they were allowed anywhere near it. Honestly security at the Conclave was really lax if my Dalish elf spy was allowed anywhere near it.
The really stupid part was the number of people who should have been at the Conclave but weren't: Fiona, Vivienne, Lucius, Barris, Denham, Rhys, Evangeline are all people you would think should have been playing a part in proceedings but were nowhere near it. Fiona at least explains the reason she wasn't there and it was plausible that she didn't trust the Templar leadership but why was Vivienne, the leading loyalist, not among the delegates? How could the Templars have negotiated without any leading figures? Not to mention why the Divine didn't wait until Cassandra had secured the assistance of Hawke before travelling to the location if they were considered so important. And why did Leliana go with Cassandra? She never seemed to be part of Varric's interrogation and as the left hand of the Divine she should have been at the Conclave keeping her safe. I wonder if anyone of significance was actually at the Conclave at all.
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Post by nvanfleet on Nov 7, 2017 18:06:57 GMT
I think they changed their mind at the last minute about Hawke not being the Inquistor, tbh. Hawke for real felt like they were making a Shepherd for DA.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 7, 2017 18:20:45 GMT
I think they changed their mind at the last minute about Hawke not being the Inquistor, tbh. Hawke for real felt like they were making a Shepherd for DA. No. They were going to have the Exalted March expansion for DA2. Once that was cancelled, they had to rework everything and eventually ended up folding some things from that cancelled expansion into what became DAI.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 22:00:00 GMT
My very large issue with any slave background would be in the plausibility of that character suddenly going from a despised nobody in a highly stratified Tevinter society to the sort of influence that a PC wields & i'd really prefer they don't have to resort a glowing hand to try & justify it again. I think it would be better if we started at a higher status such as Laetan for human/elven or in the dwarven case a respected family To be fair, Bioware's done it before. The Sith Inquisitor story in SWTOR basically tells this kind of "pariah to power" tale, and it's one of the best in said game. One concern with another slave would be is that it would be too similar to SWTOR's Inquisitor story, I suppose. With an added confusion of two characters bearing the same tag, the Inquisitor already. My mind, omg, my mind! Sith Inquisitor is not my favorite story in SWTOR but I do have some very fond memories. Ah, Ashara....
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Post by formerfiend on Nov 8, 2017 11:35:52 GMT
I remember back when the first announced the elf character would be Dalish I was asking the question "Why on earth would they be at the Conclave?" I thought perhaps it was going to be a case their clan was in the vicinity so they thought they would take a look. Not a bit of it, apparently they travelled there all the way from the Freemarches. I had to invent a whole backstory for myself to make sense of how they would have heard about the Conclave, why they decided to travel there and why they were allowed anywhere near it. Honestly security at the Conclave was really lax if my Dalish elf spy was allowed anywhere near it. The really stupid part was the number of people who should have been at the Conclave but weren't: Fiona, Vivienne, Lucius, Barris, Denham, Rhys, Evangeline are all people you would think should have been playing a part in proceedings but were nowhere near it. Fiona at least explains the reason she wasn't there and it was plausible that she didn't trust the Templar leadership but why was Vivienne, the leading loyalist, not among the delegates? How could the Templars have negotiated without any leading figures? Not to mention why the Divine didn't wait until Cassandra had secured the assistance of Hawke before travelling to the location if they were considered so important. And why did Leliana go with Cassandra? She never seemed to be part of Varric's interrogation and as the left hand of the Divine she should have been at the Conclave keeping her safe. I wonder if anyone of significance was actually at the Conclave at all. They do mention that most of the Knights Divine & Knights Vigilent were at the conclave; i.e., the highest ranking members of the Templar Order after the Lord Seeker. Certainly a bit higher than Denam & Barris; Denam was a Knight-Captian; a significant rank but not someone who'd necessarily be at the table. Barris was a rank & file templar of no significant rank so there's no reason for him to have been there. Lucius was almost certainly working with Corypheus prior to the Conclave so that explains his absence. One would think Vivienne should have been there but I've started to think that she's just been overstating and overplaying her importance. For all her claims of being the leader of the "loyal mages", we run into a lot of mages in the rebellion who disagree with it and just don't seem to be aware that her group exists because they weren't aware there was an alternative to joining Fiona's faction. There could be any number of reasons Leliana was in Kirkwall with Cassandra; presumably the investigation involved more than just sitting Varric down and listening to his story time. Leliana may have been covering other angles while Cassandra handled the interrogation. What's more, we know that interrogating Varric wasn't the *only* thing they were doing there, given that Cassandra also recruited Cullen while in town. Aside from that we know that Leliana was the one to hire the Valo Kas mercenaries as security for the Conclave, and that they operated primarily in the Free Marches, so that's likely part of what she was doing there. The Right & Left Hands are the Divine's agents out in the world, travelling about and enforcing & implementing her will, not her personal bodyguards; presumably she had other security attending her at the Conclave besides the Valo Kas & Corypheus and his Wardens killed them off screen. And regardless of how important Hawke is or isn't, if you manage to get two groups who hate each other as much as the rebels and the templars do to come to the table, you probably can't adjust the time table that much to delay it for one person's arrival. An event like the Conclave wasn't going to be a one & done meeting; it would have likely stretched out over weeks. Justinia needed to be there to show that she was taking this seriously and to keep the two sides appeased. And besides, Hawke & the Warden were only going to be needed if the Conclave failed and Justinia had no other choice but to call an Inquisition to short this shit out. Without either of them present to act as an Inquisitor it just meant that Justinia wouldn't have a backup plan, or else would have had to go with a third choice - presumably Cassandra or Leliana - to act as Inquisitor in their absence. Also, regarding the elf thing; is it really that hard to imagine, given how little regard most humans have for elves, and how little attention most humans pay elves, and how ignorant most humans are of elven society, that they wouldn't notice one elf slipping in among the servants? One of them being dalish wouldn't even necessarily raise any flags as we've seen dalish exiles leaving their clans and settling in alienages before.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 8, 2017 12:35:40 GMT
Also, regarding the elf thing; is it really that hard to imagine, given how little regard most humans have for elves, and how little attention most humans pay elves, and how ignorant most humans are of elven society, that they wouldn't notice one elf slipping in among the servants? One of them being dalish wouldn't even necessarily raise any flags as we've seen dalish exiles leaving their clans and settling in alienages before. Perhaps, but that is a very specific scenario requiring intentional subterfuge on the part of that Dalish elf. Some Dalish might not deign to lower themselves to the presentation of being seen as a servant. I don't think you could do or say anything to get Velanna to put on such an act.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 14:16:12 GMT
i'm fine with a commoner background cliche, slave it's just another cliche, but boring and with zero interest. i hope they don't go that route.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 8, 2017 18:35:51 GMT
The servants would notice someone new in their ranks though, particularly with vallaslin on their face. I would imagine that the servants there would be reasonably loyal and if anything like Sera would baulk at some strange elf mingling with them.
In any case, the servants would mainly be in Haven itself. The Conclave should only really consist of people who are specifically involved in it. There had already been an attempt on the Divine's life in Masked Empire, which proved that there were disloyal elements among either the Templars, the nobility or both, that allowed a rogue mage access, even before the rebellion began. They also had the example of Kirkwall of how an apostate mage had been able to infiltrate and blow up the Chantry there. So security should have been much tighter when all hopes of peace rested on what was taking place. Leliana might normally be off doing the Divine's business elsewhere but in the case of such an important event, the place should have been was at the Divine's side, keeping track of all delegates and identifying people who should not have been there. That is the job of the spy master. Mind you, she was there at the first attempt on Justinia's life and apparently wasn't able to prevent it, so probably it wouldn't have made any difference. Spies seemed to be able to come and go as they pleased from Skyhold and the Inquisition was riddled with Qunari and Solas' agents. To me, Leliana was not a very convincing spymaster when it came to security.
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Post by nvanfleet on Nov 8, 2017 18:37:22 GMT
There was the attempt on Justinia's life in Asunder, too. Mages *really* wanted her dead.
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