wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on Oct 10, 2017 14:06:59 GMT
Have been replaying DA2 & really enjoying the family element that was present, especially in act 1. DAO’s playable origins were certainly effective but it seems they have issues investing that much resource across that many origins. I personally found the war table origin quests in inquisition completely hollow & it's certainly an area i want better presentation if DA4 happens as expected.
While I’ve used multiple races in past dragon age games, the restriction in DA2 didn’t particularly phase me because of the benefits it offered, especially in terms of the sibling. Clearly for others it was a bigger issue. When looking forward to the potential DA4 I don’t see them abandoning racial choice again & so it’s unlikely we’d get the level of family involvement again. I'd willingly narrow the level of that choice slightly if it could that mean potential benefits to the quality of the origin content presented.
In particular given the likely Tevinter setting & the seeming Qunari war, Qunari seems something that would be hardest to satisfyingly implement whilst not hobbling the wider protagonist implementation compared to human, dwarven & even potentially city elf.
Interested to see if others were happy with how Inquisition did it & if they see racial choice as a no go area for change.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 10, 2017 14:13:02 GMT
Word on the street is that DAI was originally going to be human only, possibly playing as Hawke. But then at the last min they add in 3 more races but do not flesh them out.
This is why playing as the human seems to be the default. It was always weird to play as a Dalish elf and have humans like Morrigan explain to me Dalish lore.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 14:17:37 GMT
I would prefer them to preserve racial choices and introduce a background that will give every character a pass to Tevinter society. I do not expect elaborate race stories, similar to the Cadillac version of the origins, the Class stories in SWTOR so the conflict in Tevinter could be told in a different way as a different story all together for each of the 4 races, but I wish they had money for it. It would have been the best. Failing that, a role that is acceptable to every race is Okay (i.e. an undercover agent pretending to be a mercenary, a diplomatic entourage, part of an exotic artists group, etc). I do not find having a family all that interesting, and any blood relative is no different to me emotion-wise than a good friend (i.e. companion). I actually wished that in DA2, the Hawke' family simply fled along with the protagonist and he'd helped the survivors to recover Hawke's estate, while benefitting from it as a friend/designated executor of the estate.
I really do love playing the Qunari, and would be heart-broken if I cannot do it. My two cents.
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Post by simit on Oct 10, 2017 14:35:36 GMT
Gotta admit DA2 is my fave da game, to think what could have been done if they had the time, resources whatever that they had for both DA:O an DA:I, is for me something i thought about and if DA4 is going to Tevinter i say to BioWare do a DA2 an do it right, racial choice means nothing to me i'd rather they spent more time and resources making a great character creator with weight/height options an really turn the aesthetics lvl up, there aesthetics belong from years ago and it's telling
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luketrevelyan
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Post by luketrevelyan on Oct 10, 2017 14:44:41 GMT
If we have to wait 5+ years between games, I better get multiple playable races. Also MEA just did the whole family thing, so it would seem a bit repetitive to have it again with DA4.
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Post by wickedcool on Oct 10, 2017 14:48:31 GMT
The whole resource excuse thing is silly. Clearly there is no origin scenario in dai. We are meant to have no memory of what happened at temple
Play it out Elf,dwarf etc we have to be at temple. Best case they have us forced into a mission to get us there however in every dao case we return to where our story originated from. No reason for that in dai
They put a ton of dialogue and choices into background. Truly feel like xcarta as a dwarf. Family name is referenced and solas gets a unique ending with female elf. Could not have been placed (of course) but its apparent a lot of content was cut based on early game previews
Not sure if being hawke would have worked. Hawke would lost memory/levels and become the inquisitor with blood magic smear but no bloodmagic. New players/old would have had complaints
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 10, 2017 14:59:58 GMT
A played DAI as a Dalish elf who romanced Solas and thought this was the most tragic story-relevant option. Having the protagonist learn that her entire heritage was a lie was awesome.
That said, I thought the race selection was stupid and non-sensical for the main story. What is anybody but a human doing there in the first place?
DA2 had my favorite protagonist by far. Hawke had charisma. An actual personality, family and backstory on screen, not just headcanon. So if that was the result of human only, I vote for no race selection.
However... I really liked the different origins in the first game and I always play non-humans when I have the option.
I wanted race selection for MEA.
So I guess my stance on this is: Only offer race selection when the result is compelling and makes sense for the setting.
The Dalish inquisitor had merit for the whole elven gods subplot. But that was it. What does a dwarf or qunari inquisitor add to the story?
I know a lot of people enjoy the role-playing aspect regardless of how much gets reflected in the game. And I do like it too. But I'll always favor a strong narrative over choices. That's my personal preference.
The different models and additional voice actors are expensive. I'd rather have better characterization and other things.
But if Bioware managed to make each race feel like a very different experience with different dialogue and choices AND present each version of the hero as charismatic a hero as Hawke, I'd be all for it!
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Post by Lazarillo on Oct 10, 2017 15:05:38 GMT
The problem with Inquisition and backgrounds was the writers trying to have their cake and eat it too. -Origins had a large variety of backgrounds, which was achieved in part with a "traditional" RPG approach of unvoiced protagonist dialogue, allowing them to cast a wide net of dialogue options (although even then, it wasn't perfect, particularly for Dwarf characters). -DA2 had only a single background, but gave the player agency in determining Hawke's personality and overall priorities, allowing a more in-depth character with full voice acting. -Inquisition they tried to make the presentation of a "Hawke", with the variety of a "Warden", and as a result, they sort of ended up with the worst of both worlds. A bland character that could fit any role because everything they said and did was noncomittal. A few race or class-related lines came up, but to call them sparse is being generous.
My hope for DA4 is simply that they learn from that mistake, and since, given the general bent of the industry at the moment means a Warden-type character is unlikely, they need to more clearly define their character again like they did in DA2. I don't think this has to mean no racial variety, but rather, that the hero of the game should have a background where their race is not particularly relevant. The escaped slave is a common idea I've seen and liked, or heck, even if the focus is on Tevinter, they could have the game start in Par Vollen, under the command of Qunari who don't care about race.
And, of course, with a limited background, "origin stories" are kinda pointless, although having poured entirely too many hours into Tyranny lately, something like that game's Conquest Mode, letting us define our characters' long-term actions within the frame of the pre-established PC, could be a decent approach.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Oct 10, 2017 15:12:51 GMT
Word on the street is that DAI was originally going to be human only, possibly playing as Hawke. But then at the last min they add in 3 more races but do not flesh them out. This is why playing as the human seems to be the default. It was always weird to play as a Dalish elf and have humans like Morrigan explain to me Dalish lore. We were not going to play as Hawke, but we were originally going to be human-only but with different background options. The extra year they got let them expand those backgrounds into extra races. Personally, I prefer backgrounds. Most of the time playing as a different race means no real difference aside from different CC options. Thedas is a highly stratified society, playing as an elf should be very different from a human, a dwarf, or a qunari (especially in Tevinter, if DA4 is going to be set there) DAO could get away with it since different races had different origin stories and we ultimately end up as Grey Wardens, which exist outside of Thedas's societal norms to begin with and expressly state they will take anyone. But playing as an elf or especially as a qunari in a place like Orlais or Tevinter should be "hard mode" play.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 15:23:37 GMT
I can't say that backgrounds in DA3 came into play more than races did. I noticed references to being tall and horned way more often than references to being a Mercenary of a Whatever Company he was supposed to represent. Bull, by contrast would not shut up about the Charges, Cassandra went on an on about the Seekers, etc. At one point my character was given a choice to tell a clever story during his time as a Merc. That's that.
But a race, cosmetic as it was, at least was showcased in artwork 100% of the game time. He wore Vitaar, he looked, walked and felt different than a character of another race. I was even rejected as someone worthy of love based solely on my race, and it made me livid.
So, maybe the other characters were race-blind for the most part, but, I, the player chose it, saw it, and appreciated it every moment of playing the game. I always knew I was a Qunari, and that was special to me, not the dumb glowing or missing hand.
The background, if you get to chose one among a few, would be barely mentioned that much more often than the race (even Hawke's background is not brought up all that often) and it would not be visible 100% of the time. And the more backgrounds there are to chose from, the less difference it will make in the game overall. And if you don't get to chose, what's the point, might as well go play Assasin's Creed.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 10, 2017 15:30:38 GMT
I want them to do the same kind of thing they did with the Inquisitor, where you had race options and you could answer things about your background in dialogue but otherwise left more up to the player. I preferred that over what they did in Origins and especially DA2 where things were more predetermined.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 10, 2017 15:33:56 GMT
I can't say that backgrounds in DA3 came into play more than races did. I noticed references to being tall and horned way more often than references to being a Mercenary of a Whatever Company he was supposed to represent. Bull, by contrast would not shut up about the Charges, Cassandra went on an on about the Seekers, etc. At one point my character was given a choice to tell a clever story during his time as a Merc. That's that. But a race, cosmetic as it was, at least was showcased in artwork 100% of the game time. He wore Vitaar, he looked, walked and felt different than a character of another race. I was even rejected as someone worthy of love based solely on my race, and it made me livid. So, maybe the other characters were race-blind for the most part, but, I, the player chose it, saw it, and appreciated it every moment of playing the game. I always knew I was a Qunari, and that was special to me, not the dumb glowing or missing hand. The background, if you get to chose one among a few, would be barely mentioned that much more often than the race (even Hawke's background is not brought up all that often) and it would not be visible 100% of the time. And the more backgrounds there are to chose from, the less difference it will make in the game overall. And if you don't get to chose, what's the point, might as well go play Assasin's Creed. I've played as a human and as a qunari, and the only significant differences I noted was Adaar was bigger and Trevelyan talked more about his family. Sure some people referred to Adaar as a "brute" from time to time, but again, bigger, and came from a mercenary thug background. There was more "elfy" stuff in my Lavellan run, but then she was romancing Solas.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 10, 2017 15:36:07 GMT
The race gated romances were definitely a nice touch! I liked that a lot. Adds replay value too even if it's frustrating at first.
Bioware did try to add some flavor dialogue to the different races and I appreciated it. Credit where credit is due.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 15:53:58 GMT
The race gated romances were definitely a nice touch! I liked that a lot. Adds replay value too even if it's frustrating at first. Bioware did try to add some flavor dialogue to the different races and I appreciated it. Credit where credit is due. I hated the race gated romances, but in for a penny, in for a pound. Were the game appealing to me in other aspects, offered equally engaging (again, to me) alternatives, so I would have enjoyed replaying it, it would not have bothered me & I would have appreciated the replayability factor it added, yes.
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Post by Fredward on Oct 10, 2017 15:55:51 GMT
I'm not gonna lie, if they offered up playable, meaningful origins that have tangible content throughout the game it would be a very hard choice between that and race choices. If they made the default race an elf or a qunari I'd be on board with that shit in a heartbeat. The potential for a tighter story and consistently good cinematics would be a bonus. Important to note though is that they've never actually said (to my knowledge) there's some kind of 1 to 1 relationships between playable origins and races, one of those might actually be disproportionately more expensive than the other for whatever reason. The war table background compromise thing wasn't terrible, from my perspective. But I liked the war table. With some exceptions, when you hear your entire clan is dead and there's no way to express how that makes you feel that was pretty bad.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 15:56:33 GMT
I can't say that backgrounds in DA3 came into play more than races did. I noticed references to being tall and horned way more often than references to being a Mercenary of a Whatever Company he was supposed to represent. Bull, by contrast would not shut up about the Charges, Cassandra went on an on about the Seekers, etc. At one point my character was given a choice to tell a clever story during his time as a Merc. That's that. But a race, cosmetic as it was, at least was showcased in artwork 100% of the game time. He wore Vitaar, he looked, walked and felt different than a character of another race. I was even rejected as someone worthy of love based solely on my race, and it made me livid. So, maybe the other characters were race-blind for the most part, but, I, the player chose it, saw it, and appreciated it every moment of playing the game. I always knew I was a Qunari, and that was special to me, not the dumb glowing or missing hand. The background, if you get to chose one among a few, would be barely mentioned that much more often than the race (even Hawke's background is not brought up all that often) and it would not be visible 100% of the time. And the more backgrounds there are to chose from, the less difference it will make in the game overall. And if you don't get to chose, what's the point, might as well go play Assasin's Creed. I've played as a human and as a qunari, and the only significant differences I noted was Adaar was bigger and Trevelyan talked more about his family. Sure some people referred to Adaar as a "brute" from time to time, but again, bigger, and came from a mercenary thug background. There was more "elfy" stuff in my Lavellan run, but then she was romancing Solas. And that visual distinction was immensely important to me, and in fact, was one of two reasons I actually managed finish the game, and the only reason I have purchased it at all after a long, long, long hesitation. Obviously, I need to know a lot more about DA4 before deciding on yay or nay, and would not immediately regret it just because I cannot play a Qunari, but it gotta be awesome for me to play only as a Human in DA. Because literally every other game offers that, and it is a stiff competition.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 10, 2017 15:57:02 GMT
I do want them to have certain choices restricted if you Play a race like an Elf or a Qunari.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Oct 10, 2017 16:00:21 GMT
I've played as a human and as a qunari, and the only significant differences I noted was Adaar was bigger and Trevelyan talked more about his family. Sure some people referred to Adaar as a "brute" from time to time, but again, bigger, and came from a mercenary thug background. There was more "elfy" stuff in my Lavellan run, but then she was romancing Solas. And that visual distinction was immensely important to me, and in fact, was one of two reasons I actually managed tinish the game, and the only reason I have purchased it at all after a long, long, long hesitation. Visual distinctions are fine things. Heck, that goes to show how good their CC was (and hair and beards aside, it was very good) But it's still just as visual distinction.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 16:03:13 GMT
And that visual distinction was immensely important to me, and in fact, was one of two reasons I actually managed tinish the game, and the only reason I have purchased it at all after a long, long, long hesitation. Visual distinctions are fine things. Heck, that goes to show how good their CC was (and hair and beards aside, it was very good) But it's still just as visual distinction. Well your "just" is mine "unlike every other game I could be playing right now". As for cc, when you have to play a bold, browless and eyelash-less character in order to look better and not cringe every close-up... yeah, no, not a great cc, but passable, and acceptable because it did have racial options.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 10, 2017 16:09:56 GMT
Visual distinctions are fine things. Heck, that goes to show how good their CC was (and hair and beards aside, it was very good) But it's still just as visual distinction. Well your "just" is mine "unlike every other game I could be playing right now". As for cc, when you have to play a bold, browless and eyelash-less character in order to look better and not cringe every close-up... yeah, no, not a great cc, but passable, and acceptable because it did have racial options. Huh. Like I said I couldn't play a character with a beard (they looked ridiculous), and had a limited selection of hair styles that looked good, but I was quite happy with how things turned out.
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Post by Superhik on Oct 10, 2017 16:22:12 GMT
BW was never Troika caliber when it comes to roleplaying ( options), so different races were for most part: "..but I'm an elf/dwarf/communist minotaur/etc". And I think their writers a bit too "accommodating" and afraid to cut deeper into some topics, at least more recently. Just make a human and let him/her bang everything.
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Post by pinkjellybeans on Oct 10, 2017 16:42:14 GMT
Having multiple races in DAO worked because of the unique origin stories and because we had a silent protagonist, so that allowed Bioware to give us different dialogue options based on races. But it has been said that origin stories will likely never happen again, so I feel like the purpose of having multiple races now will be mostly for aesthetics. Which is a valid reason if people feel that way, but I wonder what other content will be cut off to make this possible. I'd rather have better sidequests and more interactions with the companions, for example.
There's also the issue of not being able to have a last name that will be acknowledged, which means the protagonist will have to have some sort of title and be called by it. That was one of my problems with DAI too. Being called "Inquisitor" all the time by my character's love interest and companions (who are supposed to be the protagonist's friends) is all kinds of wrong to me (even more wrong hearing them call "Herald"). Imagine the squadmates in ME calling Shepard nothing but Commander. There wouldn't even be legendary quotes like "there's no Shepard without Vakarian" or the "Shepard. Wrex." gem. In fact, the reason why ME is so loved and popular is mainly because of Shepard's personal journey throughout the 3 games and their relationship with the squadmates, which is very similar as to why many people still consider DA2 to be a good game despite its flaws. I honestly think that DA2 could've been a masterpiece if only they had more time, and it's a shame a lot of people don't seem to understand or care about that.
I'd love to see different races in DA4 again if they actually had an impact on the story, if NPCs would react to you differently (specially if we're going to Tevinter) and if there would be a ton of unique dialogue options as well as quests based on races (or have multiple quests end differently based on race specific options), only then it would be worth it to me. But again, what other content would be cut for that to happen?
I know this is an unpopular opinion, but personally, I'd prefer if DA4 was human only but offered different backgrounds that would impact the story. Maybe not have a full on origin story like DAO but at least have some sort of different opening for each background. For example, an altus (mage only), a slave (any class) and a soporati (rogue and warrior only). If they go with multiple races again, I don't see how they would make qunari work honestly. I can see elves fitting pretty well in the story (specially for a slave background and maybe when dealing with Solas) but other than that, it will probably be just like DAI where playing as a qunari and dwarf barely brings anything new or interesting to the game.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 16:49:06 GMT
I am the opposite. I am playing the Technomancer now, and there are so many ways he could be referred to in the dialogue, Mancer, Rogue, Leuitenant, etc, but I am stuck with being called Zachariah in VO which is not my favorite name in the world, tbh. BioWare always was good with either missing the name in VA, but showing it in the text, or coming up with a nickname from close associates, like siha, "my love" etc. It also bothered me to no end that despite my giving Hawke the first name I loved, it was just "Hawke" above his avatar and in all the conversational logs when his name was reflected. I liked the old way more, with the name you gave your character present everywhere in the game.
That's certainly an aspect of the Action-Adventure games' novel influences that I do not enjoy in the slightest. It's like the developer takes more and more from me and gives me less and less. It's like I should have become a developer/writer myself to be able to play my character in a video game. It used to be I was allowed to and nobody thought it's weird. Now I have to come to like someone else's dude in almost every game, and i am not happy about it.
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xMissWoox
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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xmisswoox
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by xMissWoox on Oct 10, 2017 16:56:22 GMT
Hmm. In theory you could fit human commoner/city elf/surface dwarf into one background, with a bit of flavour to distinguish between the three races. Thinking about it, would DA2 have played much differently if Hawke and family had been elven/dwarven refugees from Ferelden? They'd still be impoverished outsiders who had to work their way up in society.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 17:02:12 GMT
Hmm. In theory you could fit human commoner/city elf/surface dwarf into one background, with a bit of flavour to distinguish between the three races. Thinking about it, would DA2 have played much differently if Hawke and family had been elven/dwarven refugees from Ferelden? They'd still be impoverished outsiders who had to work their way up in society. It would not have, but Amells would not be in their lineage, so the manor would not have been theirs. They would have needed another reason to go to Kirkwall, such as a Kirkwall nobleman owning you a lot of money instead of being your uncle, & Bethany/Carver being childhood friends, not bro/sis.
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