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Post by Catilina on Nov 27, 2017 23:45:13 GMT
Not really. Elf Inquisitor is lame about the elven lore. I rather wanted to see the finish of Hawke's story and the outcome of the Mage-Templar war. Also, I loved to see the crazy red-lyrium Templar abominations and fallen Templars/Seekers, who deal with demons. But Solas's story's interesting as well.
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Post by phoray on Nov 27, 2017 23:54:11 GMT
I want non mage classes to suffer the same ostricism that mages suffered in three games. While that might be seen with NPCs, it's never shown for the PC. All classes have been treated the same, aside from some spare dialogue differences, in all three games. You have never been prevented from doing something because of your status as a mage in the three games and can do everything that rogues and warriors are able to do with regard to moving about in society. PC is protected status. I never implied there would be more. And PC classes have been blocked from doig things other classes get to do. Seriously. All I want is some NPC stuff, maybe more points off your popularity like they did at the Winter Palace, and IF there is a Magister's seat to be won politically, that you don't get it. Just like only a human noble could marry Ali/Anora. That's my only requests on how being a non mage should be handled in Tevinter. What are we even debating?
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Post by simit on Nov 28, 2017 0:21:47 GMT
No it never an i never felt there was much focus on elves exclusively just a natural unveiling of some 'facts' which was appropriate considering the places we went, saying that if DA4 goes to Tevinter i seriously hope they completely strip out race selection altogether an make it human only an more personal ala DA2 but with more time/resources
A personal story is really only one i can come up with to do Tevinter any justice the only other being a agent of the inquisition which tbh i dont fancy at all
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Post by vit246 on Nov 28, 2017 4:07:16 GMT
Positively in regards to the Solas stuff and most of the elven stuff like the ruins and Flemeth. Negatively in regards to things like Minaeve and Vivienne and Sera and all of the dialogue options sucking ass at dealing proper retorts to their arguments. And the total lack of any real interacting with your clan.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Nov 28, 2017 5:05:39 GMT
And the total lack of any real interacting with your clan. Well, none of the origins get that. You can't actually meet your old Carta buddies or your mercenary company or all of your many annoying relatives from Ostwick, either. (I agree that elves have it worst in that its ridiculously easy to get your entire clan killed in a War Table mission and the game completely fails to react to this properly, but that's a separate issue.)
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 28, 2017 6:02:01 GMT
(I agree that elves have it worst in that its ridiculously easy to get your entire clan killed in a War Table mission and the game completely fails to react to this properly, but that's a separate issue.) I think this aspect of it was the mistake with the DAI elven origin. I can't speak to anyone else, but Trevelyan non-mage gets sort of a lame one about resolving some family dispute or something. Having the elven one be so significant, especially when, as you point out, you can get your whole clan killed -- and even if you do that isn't even acknowledged by the game [friends, LI, etc] -- is just a terrible way to have done it. I'm pleased that the Trevelyan one isn't more involved, to be honest. It gives me more room for roleplay.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 28, 2017 6:42:20 GMT
I rather enjoyed the bigger focus on the elves, since they had a pretty big role in the history of magic in Thedas. As for the Inquisitor, that really made no difference to me, as I generally roll humans exclusively, in this case preferring a mage.
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Post by Blaze on Nov 28, 2017 8:16:02 GMT
let me make it perfectly clear: elves are the best race. as far as i'm concerned you can make a game that is elf only protagonist and i wouldn't mind. the assumption that a game can only be popular if at least one of the options is to be human is false, some might whine about not being able to play human sure, but the'll still play the game if it's good enough.
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Post by Blaze on Nov 28, 2017 8:24:46 GMT
While that might be seen with NPCs, it's never shown for the PC. All classes have been treated the same, aside from some spare dialogue differences, in all three games. You have never been prevented from doing something because of your status as a mage in the three games and can do everything that rogues and warriors are able to do with regard to moving about in society. PC is protected status. I never implied there would be more. And PC classes have been blocked from doig things other classes get to do. Seriously. All I want is some NPC stuff, maybe more points off your popularity like they did at the Winter Palace, and IF there is a Magister's seat to be won politically, that you don't get it. Just like only a human noble could marry Ali/Anora. That's my only requests on how being a non mage should be handled in Tevinter. What are we even debating? well bioware have shown so far they handle well the status of the player character in sociaty and the reaction to others to said player character to that status. i don't see them changing that policy now, so it's very likely we in the clear on that and yeah i don't get the point of that debate. you say you want the game to react to the player based on the game's own lore and people argue about it. i don't get it *shrugs*
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 28, 2017 9:05:37 GMT
What are we even debating? and yeah i don't get the point of that debate. you say you want the game to react to the player based on the game's own lore and people argue about it. i don't get it *shrugs* I considered the matter done, but I guess I have to respond now. The only reason I worded my post as I did was because of this line: I want non mage classes to suffer the same ostricism that mages suffered in three games. There is BIG difference between "ostracism" and the variations between classes we have seen in the games. The mage PCs have NEVER been ostracized in any of the DA games and can do everything, story-wise, that the non-mage classes can do. The only thing that even comes close to that sort of limitation is being unable to marry Alistair, but that is not limited only to mages. There is no "same ostracism" when that doesn't exist to begin with. In the lore, yes. For NPCs, yes. But not for the PC which has protected status. I'm not talking about needing a rogue to pick locks or a warrior to bash barriers, but real, meaningful, differences for your class. There have been none in any of the DA games. If you think there are, cite examples.
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Post by Blaze on Nov 28, 2017 9:36:11 GMT
What are we even debating? and yeah i don't get the point of that debate. you say you want the game to react to the player based on the game's own lore and people argue about it. i don't get it *shrugs* I considered the matter done, but I guess I have to respond now. The only reason I worded my post as I did was because of this line: I want non mage classes to suffer the same ostricism that mages suffered in three games. There is BIG difference between "ostracism" and the variations between classes we have seen in the games. The mage PCs have NEVER been ostracized in any of the DA games and can do everything, story-wise, that the non-mage classes can do. The only thing that even comes close to that sort of limitation is being unable to marry Alistair, but that is not limited only to mages. There is no "same ostracism" when that doesn't exist to begin with. In the lore, yes. For NPCs, yes. But not for the PC which has protected status. I'm not talking about needing a rogue to pick locks or a warrior to bash barriers, but real, meaningful, differences for your class. There have been none in any of the DA games. If you think there are, cite examples. human non mages are being treated differently, it's not limited to mages, it's also for races that are not human and concidered by some humans as "inferior". the point refer to humans specifically, since races that are not humans are being treated like that regardless of their class, it is amongs the human were the divide exist. concider the winter palace, humans are being treated with respect just apon entering (and getting positive points), unless they are mages. her point was that in tevinter, with mages rulling class it should be the other way around, which makes sense. as of the meaningful difference, i don't know what it is you concider meaningful, you'll find different people will have different opinion of how meaningful certain aspects are. if your point is to her use of the word "ostricism" being used out of place, well i can't comment on that as i have no idea what that word means (i have a guess via the context, but still ).
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 28, 2017 10:13:41 GMT
human non mages are being treated differently, it's not limited to mages, it's also for races that are not human and concidered by some humans as "inferior". Her point was about class, not race. And we're talking about the player, not people as a whole. concider the winter palace, humans are being treated with respect just apon entering (and getting positive points), unless they are mages. Sure, but it's only 10 points, which can easily be made up later on. It's not a huge detriment to the experience. I played a mage on my first play, so I speak from experience. as of the meaningful difference, i don't know what it is you concider meaningful, you'll find different people will have different opinion of how meaningful certain aspects are. Meaningful means that there are actual consequences for choosing the class, most of which the player has no control over and can't get around by making some other choice. For example, if in DAO the only way to save Connor without killing Isolde would be to play a mage, who might have the knowledge and foresight to think about going to the tower to ask for help. That is meaningful. Meaningful is not a few different dialogue options here and there. It's the difference between constantly feeling like an outcast and some random lines thrown in for flavor, but most people are accepting. One good example would be how the human is treated by the Dalish in both DAO and DA2. Both camps of elves let you know that you are not welcome there. Some NPCs may accept your presence, but many will do so grudgingly. It's a constant attitude of mistrust just because you are human. I think that's good game design, but they're not consistent with it, especially in regards to elf players in human areas. A qunari in Tevinter should be shit on by every NPC they approach, even if they do eventually help the player for whatever reason. That initial reaction is the important part in making the player feel that difference. While there are some qunari here and there -- tal'vashoth merchants and the like -- the prejudice against them (according to Dorian) is very high. At one point during development, they considered making it considerably more difficult for the qunari player during Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, but obviously decided against that. I suppose one "meaningful" example would be the death of Carver/Bethany, which is based on class choice. However, I consider that a lame gimmick and not a real meaningful consequence as would be suffered in the game because the developers made that choice, not the world itself. But all that goes out the window when you consider that a mage Hawke, Anders, and Merrill live and work in and around Kirkwall for seven years without any consequences. It's one of the most broken aspects of DA2's story. Like many things, there was to be a mage-specific plot for Hawke in Act 1, but that got cut due to resources. www.dictionary.com/browse/ostracismI want to be clear that I'm not against the idea of having meaningful consequences for class choice -- I want to play a soporati altus because I want to experience that difference -- but the idea that there has been all along simply isn't accurate.
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Post by Blaze on Nov 28, 2017 11:12:20 GMT
human non mages are being treated differently, it's not limited to mages, it's also for races that are not human and concidered by some humans as "inferior". Her point was about class, not race. And we're talking about the player, not people as a whole. concider the winter palace, humans are being treated with respect just apon entering (and getting positive points), unless they are mages. Sure, but it's only 10 points, which can easily be made up later on. It's not a huge detriment to the experience. I played a mage on my first play, so I speak from experience. as of the meaningful difference, i don't know what it is you concider meaningful, you'll find different people will have different opinion of how meaningful certain aspects are. Meaningful means that there are actual consequences for choosing the class, most of which the player has no control over and can't get around by making some other choice. For example, if in DAO the only way to save Connor without killing Isolde would be to play a mage, who might have the knowledge and foresight to think about going to the tower to ask for help. That is meaningful. Meaningful is not a few different dialogue options here and there. It's the difference between constantly feeling like an outcast and some random lines thrown in for flavor, but most people are accepting. One good example would be how the human is treated by the Dalish in both DAO and DA2. Both camps of elves let you know that you are not welcome there. Some NPCs may accept your presence, but many will do so grudgingly. It's a constant attitude of mistrust just because you are human. I think that's good game design, but they're not consistent with it, especially in regards to elf players in human areas. A qunari in Tevinter should be shit on by every NPC they approach, even if they do eventually help the player for whatever reason. That initial reaction is the important part in making the player feel that difference. While there are some qunari here and there -- tal'vashoth merchants and the like -- the prejudice against them (according to Dorian) is very high. At one point during development, they considered making it considerably more difficult for the qunari player during Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, but obviously decided against that. I suppose one "meaningful" example would be the death of Carver/Bethany, which is based on class choice. However, I consider that a lame gimmick and not a real meaningful consequence as would be suffered in the game because the developers made that choice, not the world itself. But all that goes out the window when you consider that a mage Hawke, Anders, and Merrill live and work in and around Kirkwall for seven years without any consequences. It's one of the most broken aspects of DA2's story. Like many things, there was to be a mage-specific plot for Hawke in Act 1, but that got cut due to resources. www.dictionary.com/browse/ostracismI want to be clear that I'm not against the idea of having meaningful consequences for class choice -- I want to play a soporati altus because I want to experience that difference -- but the idea that there has been all along simply isn't accurate. thanks for clarifying, for you i can see the choices might not be meaningful, for others even some of the small things might be meaningful. i would note that the player is treated by some people in the game differently based on the class, sure to you dialogue difference is not meaningful for some it is. also she was talking about the class but only in regard of humans. i find it hard to believe she expects elven mages to be treated better in tevinter, especially since even the slaves in tevinter are still concidered slaves even if they show magical abilities (like calpernia before corypheus freed her). the reason i stated that the point is in regard to human mages only is because other races are being treated differently regardless if they are mages or not. take the dalish, if people think the dalish are savages, would think less of them if they are also mages? they already think low of them to begin with. generally to me it seems (and i might be wrong on that front) that you didn't have issue with the core of her point, just that her use of the word ostracism which might or might not have been misused (not gonna look it up to make sure, since it's irrelivant), that just semantics. i mean even if it's indeed just small things and not big things (and again, they are small things to you) it's seem clear to me (though i can't really speak for her, that just what i gathered) that it's something that would be into concieration. that only high class tevinter mages, which most of them are humans, would get special treatment (again, even if that special treatment might seem small to some).
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Post by simit on Nov 28, 2017 11:23:37 GMT
For someone who cant speak for her your doing a mighty job trying
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Post by Blaze on Nov 28, 2017 11:36:01 GMT
For someone who cant speak for her your doing a mighty job trying not really, i'm speaking for me and the point. i happen to agree with her point *shrugs*
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2017 14:44:42 GMT
But all that goes out the window when you consider that a mage Hawke, Anders, and Merrill live and work in and around Kirkwall for seven years without any consequences. It's one of the most broken aspects of DA2's story. Like many things, there was to be a mage-specific plot for Hawke in Act 1, but that got cut due to resources Well, Anders at least plot-wise hides, and you are shown that there are people unwilling to give you his location and willing to attack the player when he gets too close to their healer. There are dialogues in which he mentions hiding, underground, secret passages etc creating an illusion that he at least tries to elude the pursuit. Merrill just goes about slicing her wrists and happily chatting how demons are not all bad if you are careful enough to everyone who'd listen.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 28, 2017 15:06:45 GMT
But all that goes out the window when you consider that a mage Hawke, Anders, and Merrill live and work in and around Kirkwall for seven years without any consequences. It's one of the most broken aspects of DA2's story. Like many things, there was to be a mage-specific plot for Hawke in Act 1, but that got cut due to resources Well, Anders at least plot-wise hides, and you are shown that there are people unwilling to give you his location and willing to attack the player when he gets too close to their healer. There are dialogues in which he mentions hiding, underground, secret passages etc creating an illusion that he at least tries to elude the pursuit. Merrill just goes about slicing her wrists and happily chatting how demons are not all bad if you are careful enough to everyone who'd listen. Merrill says, that she's just an elf in the Alienage. Virtually invisible. Anders' free health services can be important in a city, what have refugee-problems, so perhaps the Templars temporarily turn a blind eye, when keeping an eyes on him (Anders mention to Hawke, that Templars snoop around his clinic), and Varric also help him. Aveline mentions that he respects his work, so, not excluded, that the guards also not are not really alert here... True, in the Act1 she's not a captain, but perhaps still can help a bit. I suppose Hawke can fighting with knives, fists, staff as polearm, and with discrete magic. Not need to ignite everything in public, there are also discrete methods: just remember the "Exotic Wonder"... Of course still would important a better "official" explanation.
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Post by simit on Nov 28, 2017 22:50:03 GMT
For me most of the stupidity can easily be explained by lack time an resources in the dev department an ignored with a wee bit of rp, lot of facepalm moments but still my fav DA game is DA2
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Post by Catilina on Nov 28, 2017 22:53:50 GMT
For me most of the stupidity can easily be explained by lack time an resources in the dev department an ignored with a wee bit of rp, lot of facepalm moments but still my fav DA game is DA2 Exactly. A little (or more) imagination, and all right.
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Post by Walter Black on Nov 29, 2017 1:26:28 GMT
Meaningful means that there are actual consequences for choosing the class, most of which the player has no control over and can't get around by making some other choice. For example, if in DAO the only way to save Connor without killing Isolde would be to play a mage, who might have the knowledge and foresight to think about going to the tower to ask for help. That is meaningful. Minor nitpick, but a non mage can still get Tower Mages to help exorcise Connor without sacrificing anyone, and you can send Morrigan, Wynne, Irving or Jowan into the Fade to do it. It makes more sense for mage (or if you've already saved the Tower), and would have been better to have possible consequences to leaving Redcliffe alone with Possessed Connor to get said mages, but it's still doable.
Oh, and props to phoray
for the Bluegrass shout out .
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Post by Frost on Nov 29, 2017 3:28:03 GMT
Yes, for me the more elves and elven lore the better!
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 29, 2017 3:36:52 GMT
I kind of feel the same way about the Dalish that Solas does, but city elves and ancient elves are interesting. So, in the net, I liked the elven emphasis of DAI. But I found your thread title very confusing. How can there be an "Elven protagonist," when I'm pretty sure Sandal is a dwarf?
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Post by phoray on Nov 29, 2017 3:39:31 GMT
I kind of feel the same way about the Dalish that Solas does, but city elves and ancient elves are interesting. So, in the net, I liked the elven emphasis of DAI. But I found your thread title very confusing. How can there be an "Elven protagonist," when I'm pretty sure Sandal is a dwarf? Dragon Age Enchantment Husband makes the joke you just made all the time. At random too, it'll catch me off guard.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 29, 2017 5:12:08 GMT
Well, Anders at least plot-wise hides, Merrill says, that she's just an elf in the Alienage. Virtually invisible. But you're [some players, anyway, not all] still running around with them. It's just like using magic right in front of Cullen's face, saving his ass from demons. Yeah, I get that a lot of DA2's problems are because of a short development time. No one regrets that more than the devs themselves, I'm sure. I like the game; I played it a dozen times. But that doesn't mean I can't see its shortcomings and wish they were better. DAI is my favorite DA game, and I can do the same there. Some players are able to selectively ignore things because other, more positive influences overwrite the faults. That applies to me too. But those happen to be different for each player and based on how each players plays the game and the choices they make (with their character as well as actual in-game choices). Minor nitpick, but a non mage can still get Tower Mages to help exorcise Connor without sacrificing anyone, and you can send Morrigan, Wynne, Irving or Jowan into the Fade to do it. You misunderstood my statement there. I was saying that a good example of a class difference would be if there had been that difference. IF the mage class, because they are a mage, was the only one to be able to achieve that perfect solution to the Connor crisis. Heck, I don't think that solution should have been in the game to begin with.
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Dreadnaw Rising
12,573
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by phoray on Nov 29, 2017 14:31:02 GMT
Heck, I don't think that solution should have been in the game to begin with Indeed. Could have been a Blood Magic or Kill Connor as the only two choices, none of that happily traipse off to the Tower stuff.
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