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Post by bshep on Dec 22, 2018 3:07:50 GMT
Lol, I'm down for Solas to storm Skyhold and wipe out the remnants of the Inquisition. And fail miserably when he tries that petrification crap on all the Templars that stayed loyal? I get the feeling Templars magic would not work on Solas or he at least would have countermeasures against them after seeing how their blue lyrium infused negating magic works.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 22, 2018 3:14:52 GMT
I'd say that him stating 'I really wish you could prove me wrong' sounds like something of a dead giveaway And, like... we know that a lot of the magic Tevinter uses was stuff the ancient elves came up with. But there have been 8000 years of brains working since Elvhenan began to crumble. And in that time, those 8000 years of brains have come up with things the ancient elves *didn't* come up with - like time magic. Solas seems quite surprised that Gereon Alexius was able to use time magic. Also, the magic-suppressing abilities of the Templars are probably *not* something that the ancient elves came up with, because why would they? So anyway, what I'm trying to say is that although Solas knows a lot, he isn't a god in the sense of being omniscient. Different brains might come up with ways of solving the Veil problem that Solas hasn't been able to come up with. Yea, Solas is pretty honest when he encounters magic or things he isn't familiar with or didn't expect. And I don't think it's just a matter of evolution of magical craft, but also some sort of (magical?) processes/evolution that took place that allowed people like Inquisitor (who can wield his Anchor, even if temporarily) to exist. He does make it quite clear that it's not something he knows how to sufficiently explain. So maybe there's also something in this aspect of the modern world that he hopes to find some alternative solutions with?
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Post by Lulupab on Dec 22, 2018 9:19:22 GMT
I still don't know why the "modern" world has to completely die if Solas is going to restore the old one.
I'm sure many will die if the veil is removed, but I don't see how EVERYONE will die, unless something or someone specifically hunts them down and kills them. Like this is an important detail.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 22, 2018 10:43:22 GMT
But there have been 8000 years of brains working since Elvhenan began to crumble. And in that time, those 8000 years of brains have come up with things the ancient elves *didn't* come up with - like time magic. Sorry but I have to ask, where did you get the idea that it is 8000 years since Elvhenan began to crumble? According to the timelines in World of Thedas it is 8000 years (roughly) since the founding of Arlathan. So that was when the civilisation was on the rise. Then allegedly the first dwarf contact was 3000 years later and it was only some 1500 years after that when humans are said to have arrived, which presumably means it was around the same time the Veil was created since the elves associate their loss of immortality and fall of their empires with them. So it is only around 4000 years since Elvhenan began to crumble, still a long time but half the time you state and the elves had more time developing magic when there was no Veil than people have had to develop it since the Veil was raised. Plus the Imperium didn't really take off in power until after they defeated the elves in Arlathan Forest, which is only around 1800 years ago. Whilst the city was said to have been sunk without trace, we know from Witch Hunt that some elves did get away and with artefacts that later came into possession of Tevinter mages, so it may well be that Tevinter magical research took a leap forward on the basis of what they found in the Forest or what they were able to force out of their elven captives. Also, please do not get me started on the whole "time magic" issue. Using that as a plot device was a big mistake on the part of the writers as it does push the boundaries of magic too far into the extreme in my opinion and rubbishes the original idea that in Thedas even magic has its limits. Even the explanation for how it worked in one location only made no sense either, so Alexius was winding time back continually in Redcliffe but everywhere else was unaffected. Then there is the fact that he continued to do this after we disappeared, yet somehow we still arrived in the "right" time-line. So put a line under that and do not use it as an example of what Tevinter could do that the elves couldn't, although I would point out that Solas had no trouble understanding how Dorian said it worked, so from that PoV the elves probably had worked out the theory, just couldn't do it in practice.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Dec 22, 2018 15:06:39 GMT
But there have been 8000 years of brains working since Elvhenan began to crumble. And in that time, those 8000 years of brains have come up with things the ancient elves *didn't* come up with - like time magic. Sorry but I have to ask, where did you get the idea that it is 8000 years since Elvhenan began to crumble? According to the timelines in World of Thedas it is 8000 years (roughly) since the founding of Arlathan. So that was when the civilisation was on the rise. Then allegedly the first dwarf contact was 3000 years later and it was only some 1500 years after that when humans are said to have arrived, which presumably means it was around the same time the Veil was created since the elves associate their loss of immortality and fall of their empires with them. So it is only around 4000 years since Elvhenan began to crumble, still a long time but half the time you state and the elves had more time developing magic when there was no Veil than people have had to develop it since the Veil was raised. Plus the Imperium didn't really take off in power until after they defeated the elves in Arlathan Forest, which is only around 1800 years ago. Whilst the city was said to have been sunk without trace, we know from Witch Hunt that some elves did get away and with artefacts that later came into possession of Tevinter mages, so it may well be that Tevinter magical research took a leap forward on the basis of what they found in the Forest or what they were able to force out of their elven captives. Also, please do not get me started on the whole "time magic" issue. Using that as a plot device was a big mistake on the part of the writers as it does push the boundaries of magic too far into the extreme in my opinion and rubbishes the original idea that in Thedas even magic has its limits. Even the explanation for how it worked in one location only made no sense either, so Alexius was winding time back continually in Redcliffe but everywhere else was unaffected. Then there is the fact that he continued to do this after we disappeared, yet somehow we still arrived in the "right" time-line. So put a line under that and do not use it as an example of what Tevinter could do that the elves couldn't, although I would point out that Solas had no trouble understanding how Dorian said it worked, so from that PoV the elves probably had worked out the theory, just couldn't do it in practice. You're right; I was too lazy to go back and check my timeline. 4000 years. Thanks!
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 22, 2018 16:37:39 GMT
Also, please do not get me started on the whole "time magic" issue. Using that as a plot device was a big mistake on the part of the writers as it does push the boundaries of magic too far into the extreme in my opinion and rubbishes the original idea that in Thedas even magic has its limits. Hmmm... aside from all the issue of touting the 'original idea' as somehow superior - why assume it was the 'original idea' to begin with? The story began with us thinking that magic in Thedas has limits, but that was based on limited in-world knowledge. Little to no lore in Thedas is written from unbiased meta-perspective. Even the Word Of God stuff usually comes with a caveat that what they say isn't exhaustive. If that is one thing they're sticking to - so far that is it. And now, that we know that the Veil wasn't always the thing (which is the way things have always been as far as worldbuilding goes), that the world looked quite different and there existed people as powerful as gods and powers able to destroy the world... if there are limits, there's still more than magic can do than it can't do, it seems. In fact, the issues with magic potentially stem from its limitlessness. Like - that is likely one of the core issues here. Weren't we in a hurry to deal with the mages because the effects of time manipulation were quickly spreading beyond Redcliffe? Also - all of this is based on magic that itself is based on memory and willpower. The fact that we arrived in the right timeline may be because of Inky/Dorian's determination to stop Alexius and the Fade complying. (plus, aren't we supposed to wonder whether Inquisition is aided by higher powers? I was religious, I remember that coincidences like that were 'the sign' of divine providence...) Also, if the Fade is the kind of force that allows reshaping of... well... everything, then it's prudent to assume that it also allows reshaping time, even if achieving that requires certain conditions to occur.
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Post by wickedcool on Dec 22, 2018 16:49:33 GMT
The mage in the fallow mire based on his book was tapping into magic not familiar to thedas. According to his notes the demons were warning him it was beyond him Dai added a ton to the lore not previously introduced including veilfire. Veilfire is everywhere I love the timeline story but I do prefer the Templar keep due to barris and rewards. I would have like to fight alexious as it’s a fun boss battle
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 22, 2018 20:10:48 GMT
Just wanted to remind people about the original trailer for DAI, none of which really fitted what came in the actual game, but does fit with Solas tearing down the Veil. Specifically the visual images of the sky tearing across, rather than just a hole, and a dragon apparently coming out of that tear. A general darkness everywhere. Fire raining down from on high and the person at the end struggling through a yellowish haze. Also Morrigan's words:
I’ve seen more of this war than you can imagine. None shall be untouched by the fires above. Faith lies in ashes. Our fragile alliances crumble to dust as this world is torn asunder. Darkness closes in; will you stand against it or lead this world to its bitter end?
DG said that only half the story had been told in DAI and this original trailer definitely seemed to point towards what happens in the second half. Just throwing it out there.
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Post by phoray on Dec 22, 2018 21:45:20 GMT
gervaise21It does throw questions out. But it also shows depictions of things already done and resolved. Varric and Iron Bull aren't coming back in DA4 so those scenes "already happened" as it were. So which parts of the trailer are talking about events we haven't seen?
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 23, 2018 14:37:19 GMT
Well leaving aside Varric, that opening scene is of a village burnt to ashes (originally I believe what happens to Crestwood if you decide to liberate the Keep from what was then Red Templars rather than bandits but that is only based off what other people have said) Next scene with a fortress with either Owls or Griffons above the gate, darkness and lightning striking the ground. Not somewhere I am familiar with (Owls associated with Falon'Din, Lusacan and the constellation Tenebrium - Shadow/Darkness). Not sure if Iron Bull was associated with it or that is a separate scene but the light illuminating him is now green suggesting the light is coming from the Fade. Cassandra in a fortress that isn't Skyhold, stabbing a map (may be suggesting what Inquisitor does at end of Trepasser). The fortress being attacked by Cassandra and soldiers but a weird yellow illumination (so unlike what happened at Adamant). Then the aerial shot - is that the same fortress or a city somewhere? Anyway it isn't being bombarded by siege engines but from meteorites from above. A general darkness over all but towards the end a green flickering accompanies the metorites. Were they trying to stop someone doing what comes next? Major explosion with the sky being ripped apart, Cassandra looking up at it (failed to stop the event) and green meteorites (okay we got those at beginning of DAI but not so many, so closer together) and definitely didn't get a dragon dropping out of the sky with them. Then Morrigan with a darkness backdrop telling us it is closing in. Where in DAI did we get that sort of sense of impending doom? Yes we had isolated instances, Crestwood before we closed the rift and Fallow Mire that was permanently stuck that way but it didn't affect anywhere else. We had Morrigan near the end trying to create a sense of jeopardy by speaking in a really deep, dire voice about what would happen if we didn't stop Corypheus but by then you knew it was really sort of academic. Finally that shot of what I assume is meant to be the PC struggling to through a yellow haze whilst she poses the question "Will you stand it or lead this world to its bitter end?" When did we stand against "the darkness"? May be that was referring to Corypheus but darkness did not follow him like it does an arch-demon and the darkspawn were really just a footnote to events. To he honest, if he hadn't looked like he did, and the link they made between red lyrium and the Blight, you'd never even know he was connected with them at all. Just throw something else out there. At the end of the latest comic series they are heading to Castel Tenebrium in pursuit of an ancient artefact on behalf of the Shadow Inquisition. Castel Tenebrium = Castle of Shadow/Darkness.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 23, 2018 15:52:12 GMT
Just wanted to remind people about the original trailer for DAI, none of which really fitted what came in the actual game, but does fit with Solas tearing down the Veil. Specifically the visual images of the sky tearing across, rather than just a hole, and a dragon apparently coming out of that tear. A general darkness everywhere. Fire raining down from on high and the person at the end struggling through a yellowish haze. Also Morrigan's words: I’ve seen more of this war than you can imagine. None shall be untouched by the fires above. Faith lies in ashes. Our fragile alliances crumble to dust as this world is torn asunder. Darkness closes in; will you stand against it or lead this world to its bitter end? DG said that only half the story had been told in DAI and this original trailer definitely seemed to point towards what happens in the second half. Just throwing it out there. Well yeah but... in Trespasser we see the captive Qunari dragon flying above Fen'Harel sanctuary, for example, and that didn't happen in the game. I think we shouldn't confuse the flair and artistic license often used in trailers for 'this is/was literally in the game'.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 1, 2019 21:08:37 GMT
Relevant to the teaser, I just found this post on tumblr: 🤔
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 1, 2019 21:52:19 GMT
And fail miserably when he tries that petrification crap on all the Templars that stayed loyal? I get the feeling Templars magic would not work on Solas or he at least would have countermeasures against them after seeing how their blue lyrium infused negating magic works. This is all sort of moot because he wouldn’t need to fight anyone. Skyhold is magic. It actively resists being found by enemies. That’s the whole reason Corypheus had to lead us away at the end, he was physically unable to attack Skyhold like he did Haven. If Solas needs it back, Skyhold will just kick the Inquisition out and become unfindable again.
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Post by phoray on Jan 1, 2019 21:57:10 GMT
Pretty much my same face. That is over the top Dalish torture there.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 1, 2019 22:05:10 GMT
I get the feeling Templars magic would not work on Solas or he at least would have countermeasures against them after seeing how their blue lyrium infused negating magic works. This is all sort of moot because he wouldn’t need to fight anyone. Skyhold is magic. It actively resists being found by enemies. That’s the whole reason Corypheus had to lead us away at the end, he was physically unable to attack Skyhold like he did Haven. If Solas needs it back, Skyhold will just kick the Inquisition out and become unfindable again. I don't think we have enough data to assume that Skyhold would just kick the Inquisition - too much has happened to put it on the map compared to what's been happening there across the history after the Veil was lifted, so I don't think it'd be so easy to forget it. Plus... is Skyhold really Solas's now? It seems to me that he has earnestly gifted his stronghold to Inquisitor. Anyway... it'd be hilarious if it turned out that Skyhold doesn't just have its own magic but also its own sentience and the bulk of the final battle would be just Solas and Inquisitor trying to convince Skyhold to come to their side, like a confused dog torn between two owners
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 1, 2019 22:09:59 GMT
Pretty much my same face. That is over the top Dalish torture there.
Technically not torture since for that you have to have living victims and heads would seem to suggest they were very much dead. Remember also that the guy heard the story in an Orlesian Tavern, so I would imagine that belongs with the stories of the elves sacrificing human children in blood magic rituals and other anti-elven rhetoric that was spread by the Chantry to enflame feeling against the elves.
We know that some elves did resort to blood magic rituals but they were probably a minority. In fact we know there were some elves during the time of the Dales who worshipped the Forgotten Ones and were condemned by the majority. Given what the elves in the Tirashan are like, if there were elves stringing up human heads during the time of the Dales it was likely a similar group to these elves with blood red vallaslin.
Any elf who tortures their victims is not a true adherent of the Way of Three Trees (Clan Virnehn please take note).
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 1, 2019 22:10:55 GMT
Pretty much my same face. That is over the top Dalish torture there. Well, as with any codex it's very biased. It could be that the humans trespassed with weapons or did something horrible while they were there. Or maybe those elves had Tamlen's kill-'em-all temperment. Or it never happened at all, and is just a ~spooky~ morbid legend that got attached to that location later. I just think it'd be interesting if that is in fact the tree from the trailer (rather than just a symbol of the vhenadahl like I'd assumed). And that Fen'Harel's statue sits beneath it. Kind of like some stoner kids drawing Satanic imagery somewhere and sacrificing cats, in some sort of.... sick, poorly-understood attempt to be edgy.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 1, 2019 23:06:10 GMT
I get the feeling Templars magic would not work on Solas or he at least would have countermeasures against them after seeing how their blue lyrium infused negating magic works. This is all sort of moot because he wouldn’t need to fight anyone. Skyhold is magic. It actively resists being found by enemies. That’s the whole reason Corypheus had to lead us away at the end, he was physically unable to attack Skyhold like he did Haven. If Solas needs it back, Skyhold will just kick the Inquisition out and become unfindable again. Not that I am doubting but do you have a lore or codex entry pointing to that? While that would make a lot of sense it is news to me.
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Post by phoray on Jan 1, 2019 23:15:41 GMT
Not that I am doubting but do you have a lore or codex entry pointing to that? While that would make a lot of sense it is news to me. Totally new to me as well.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 1, 2019 23:32:11 GMT
This is all sort of moot because he wouldn’t need to fight anyone. Skyhold is magic. It actively resists being found by enemies. That’s the whole reason Corypheus had to lead us away at the end, he was physically unable to attack Skyhold like he did Haven. If Solas needs it back, Skyhold will just kick the Inquisition out and become unfindable again. Not that I am doubting but do you have a lore or codex entry pointing to that? While that would make a lot of sense it is news to me. IIRC, that bit of Skyhold lore comes from Morrigan. Usual caveats about Morrigan and elven magic apply, but the lack of attacks by Venatori, red templars, or Corypheus himself seems to support of that idea. Though it’s, of course, not totally definitive. I don’t think the castle would actively kick people out, but it might gradually allow itself to be abandoned. For example, if all the important people in the Inquisition are at the Winter Palace for an Exalted Council, they might find themselves returning to Haven’s basement rather than Skyhold.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Jan 1, 2019 23:35:09 GMT
I was under the assumption that Corypheus never attacked Skyhold directly because it is a highly defensible location. It wouldn't be worth it.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 1, 2019 23:50:12 GMT
I recall a dwarf in the courtyard even dismissing the possibility of Corypheus attacking Skyhold. Ant advantage his dragon would have is erased by its location, and Corypheus isn’t the type to settle for an even fight.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jan 2, 2019 4:13:29 GMT
After the Arbor Wilds, Corphyeus must know that the Inquisitor has access to at least one Eluvian - that's how they got away from him, after all. Given that, there would be absolutely no point to trying to lay siege to Skyhold even if he had an army to lay siege with. Having a magic mirror you can wander in and out of at will defeats the whole point of cutting a fortress off from its supply lines.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jan 2, 2019 6:54:52 GMT
Not that I am doubting but do you have a lore or codex entry pointing to that? While that would make a lot of sense it is news to me. IIRC, that bit of Skyhold lore comes from Morrigan. Usual caveats about Morrigan and elven magic apply, but the lack of attacks by Venatori, red templars, or Corypheus himself seems to support of that idea. Though it’s, of course, not totally definitive. I don’t think the castle would actively kick people out, but it might gradually allow itself to be abandoned. For example, if all the important people in the Inquisition are at the Winter Palace for an Exalted Council, they might find themselves returning to Haven’s basement rather than Skyhold. Here's what Morrigan has to say about Skyhold. Morrigan: To think, until recently this place stood decrepit, occupied only by the desperate and the lost. Now it is party to events that threaten to shake the world. I wonder if it is pleased?
Inquisitor: It sounds like you've heard of Skyhold before.
Morrigan: This fortress was built upon the remains of a site holy to the ancient elves. They called it Tarasyl'an: "The place where the sky is kept." It is said that from here, they reached up to the heavens to bring them down to rest. They abandoned it, as did the humans who came after. Bones laid upon bones, silent until your arrival.
Inquisitor: We were lucky to have found it when we did.
Morrigan: Fate is often mistaken for luck, as Mother is fond of saying. The magic in this place has seeped into the stones, protecting it from darkness. Those who let it fall to ruin did not know what they possessed. You, I think, shall do it justice.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 2, 2019 8:54:17 GMT
The magic in this place has seeped into the stones, protecting it from darkness. This is interesting as it suggests that had Corypheus been looking for Skyhold before we occupied it, he could not have entered it even if he had found it. Darkness is now synonymous with the Blight and blighted creatures. Corypheus even says that after they discovered the darkness they let it "permeate their being". So that does suggest that people are right to say that it would have been impossible for Corypheus to attack us there because of the magical nature of the structure. It might also be why Solas guided us to it as our base of operations knowing that it would be a sanctuary from the blighted Magister.
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