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Post by colfoley on Apr 10, 2019 1:56:52 GMT
the original ideas for DA4 (Joplin) sounded amazing Being locked into playing a Tevinter spy (for whom? would we even know?) and doing "heists" as a large part of the game both sound awful. Not that the "reboot" is sounding any better though. Man, 4+ years and 3 more to go for shite like this? I think I need to find a new favorite game universe because this one isn't looking to be going in a direction I like.
but maybe a friend can hop in if you want?
I read 'friend' as 'fiend' and thought that might at least make things more exciting!
i would point out that it didn't sound like to me that the heists wouldn't be major parts v of the game.
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Post by General Mahad on Apr 10, 2019 1:59:39 GMT
Looks like Anthem is a cancer on the Dragon Age series as well.
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Post by Reznore on Apr 10, 2019 2:11:20 GMT
There's just a level of self-sabotage that is just so mind blowing to me. Jesus Christ. So if I understood correctly the DA team starts the new project with lots of good things in mind. Clear vision on story, clear vision on new emerging gameplay, etc etc...they learned from DAI mistakes. I'm sure it wasn't perfect but compared to say what we read about Anthem, the devs weren't sitting around with no ideas of what they were doing just throwing vague concept at a wall praying something would stick 5 years down the line. So here comes, I assume, Bioware higher-up crapping their pants, when they realise they don't know what they're doing with Anthem (after 5 YEARS!), and EA who threw money at Bioware and basically just wants lots of money back via whatever new pet idea they have (Frostbite, live service), and also wants Kewl Flying!!! or whatever, and those very sensible and intelligent people decided to throw a bowling ball into DA4. Wonderful...
Also how can they say they are learning from Anthem when clearly production wise DA4 is going the same exact way, extra long pre production, and they will have to go crunch to fart out DA4 in less than 2 years.
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Post by apollexander on Apr 10, 2019 2:24:21 GMT
Plans for the original Project: Joplin (before the reboot): "Another former BioWare developer who worked on Joplin called it “some of the best work experiences” they’d ever had. “We were working towards something very cool, a hugely reactive game, smaller in scope than Dragon Age: Inquisition but much larger in player choice, followers, reactivity, and depth,” they said. “I’m sad that game will never get made.”
You’d play as a group of spies in Tevinter Imperium, a wizard-ruled country on the north end of Dragon Age’s main continent, Thedas. The goal was to focus as much as possible on choice and consequence, with smaller areas and fewer fetch quests than Dragon Age: Inquisition. (In other words, they wanted Joplin to be the opposite of the Hinterlands.) There was an emphasis on “repeat play,” one developer said, noting that they wanted to make areas that changed over time and missions that branched in interesting ways based on your decisions, to the point where you could even get “non-standard game overs” if you followed certain paths.
A large chunk of Joplin would center on heists. The developers talked about building systemic narrative mechanics, allowing the player to perform actions like persuading or extorting guards without the writers having to hand-craft every scene. It was all very ambitious and very early, and would have no doubt changed drastically once Joplin entered production, but members of the team say they were thrilled about the possibilities."That looks a bit confused. While I appreciate the part of emphasis on choice and consequence with fewer fetch quests, I don't get the point of centering on heists. I can't see how heists fit the story (The dread wolf rises and Tevinter vs. Qunari). And 'the systemic narrative mechanics' does sound like fetch quests (though improved). The heists also look like part of live service.
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Post by CHRrOME on Apr 10, 2019 2:29:18 GMT
Also the article DID mention that Laidlaw and everyone was trying to figure out ways of creating proper documentation in order to get everyone caught up to speed quickly. Yeah, that's actually a good move, and something to be expected if you assume that at one point you are going to pull people off from one thing to the other. I wish this didn't happen though, I think it's just wrong, but as I've said, not sure how everyone run their business. As of now, clearly they are doing it for the wrong reasons and both Bioware and EA are to blame.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
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Post by bshep on Apr 10, 2019 2:30:01 GMT
the original ideas for DA4 (Joplin) sounded amazing Being locked into playing a Tevinter spy (for whom? would we even know?) and doing "heists" as a large part of the game both sound awful. Not that the "reboot" is sounding any better though. Man, 4+ years and 3 more to go for shite like this? I think I need to find a new favorite game universe because this one isn't looking to be going in a direction I like.
but maybe a friend can hop in if you want?
I read 'friend' as 'fiend' and thought that might at least make things more exciting!
DA4 2021.... Damn that is going to be a really long wait. Hope they figure it out fast what they want to do to start building the game as soon as possible.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 10, 2019 2:32:44 GMT
the original ideas for DA4 (Joplin) sounded amazing Being locked into playing a Tevinter spy (for whom? would we even know?) and doing "heists" as a large part of the game both sound awful. Not that the "reboot" is sounding any better though. Man, 4+ years and 3 more to go for shite like this? I think I need to find a new favorite game universe because this one isn't looking to be going in a direction I like. ...But why assume that we're going to be "locked into playing a Tevinter spy and doing heists" like this is all there is? Did I miss a part of the article where Jason exhaustively goes into the tiniest detail of the narrative or gameplay, or was he just throwing some ideas he heard from some Bioware devs at some time? I mean... I certainly wouldn't like "walking around in a ghoul-infested landscape and doing chores" or "sitting in a castle and occasionally going out to close rifts" as an interesting proposition if this is all I heard about DAO or DAI. And this is about as much as we heard about Dragon Age 4, only this seems to be mostly coming from early concept stages from 3 or 4 years ago, with the article's author admitting he doesn't really have access to more and thus mostly speculates about content of current incarnation of the project.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Apr 10, 2019 2:33:49 GMT
Lol, people are making waaaaaaay too many assumptions about what "Joplin" was going to be, based on very vague use of the words 'spy' and 'heist'.
What even is language anymore?
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 10, 2019 2:35:45 GMT
Lol, people are making waaaaaaay too many assumptions about what "Joplin" was going to be, based on very vague use of the words 'spy' and 'heist'. What even is language anymore? Apparently we're so hungry for information about DA4 we use extra-special extraction tools to squeeze every ounce of meaning from every word and sentence
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Post by colfoley on Apr 10, 2019 2:43:38 GMT
There's just a level of self-sabotage that is just so mind blowing to me. Jesus Christ. So if I understood correctly the DA team starts the new project with lots of good things in mind. Clear vision on story, clear vision on new emerging gameplay, etc etc...they learned from DAI mistakes. I'm sure it wasn't perfect but compared to say what we read about Anthem, the devs weren't sitting around with no ideas of what they were doing just throwing vague concept at a wall praying something would stick 5 years down the line. So here comes, I assume, Bioware higher-up crapping their pants, when they realise they don't know what they're doing with Anthem (after 5 YEARS!), and EA who threw money at Bioware and basically just wants lots of money back via whatever new pet idea they have (Frostbite, live service), and also wants Kewl Flying!!! or whatever, and those very sensible and intelligent people decided to throw a bowling ball into DA4. Wonderful... Also how can they say they are learning from Anthem when clearly production wise DA4 is going the same exact way, extra long pre production, and they will have to go crunch to fart out DA4 in less than 2 years. ]with respect clearly we know nothing. Even Schrier actually knows little about the current working conditions at bioware he just knows what they were during Anthem and Andromeda. So who knows, maybe this article is already out of date and Hudson has already fixed things or maybe Joplin was cancelled because... Despite how awesome it sounded... Hudson saw they were making the same mistakes so he cancelled it to get a fresh start for everyone... This time with a clear roadmap. We won't know until DA 4 hits our shelves and each of us can determine whether or not its a failure. And if Schrier thinks it is I'm sure he'll write another expose...
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Post by river82 on Apr 10, 2019 2:44:36 GMT
DA4 2021.... Damn that is going to be a really long wait. Hope they figure it out fast what they want to do to start building the game as soon as possible. Christmas 2021 ... then a "product relocation" (it's not a delay!) to the middle of 2022 Which is fine by me. I've just discovered I really like playing support roles in MMOs, so I've just bought FFXIV while still playing ESO and I have the feeling I'm going to be fine for the next ... 3 years? :3
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Post by pessimistpanda on Apr 10, 2019 2:45:46 GMT
Lol, people are making waaaaaaay too many assumptions about what "Joplin" was going to be, based on very vague use of the words 'spy' and 'heist'. What even is language anymore? Apparently we're so hungry for information about DA4 we use extra-special extraction tools to squeeze every ounce of meaning from every word and sentence But when WE use words like dark, gritty and mature, they mean nothing and everything all at once! Anyway, I would have been down to be a spy stealing shit. I don't want to be leader of a powerful organisation again, that shit was dull, and everything about the ending of Trespasser suggested we'd be working primarily in the shadows with reduced resources.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 10, 2019 3:07:37 GMT
Apparently we're so hungry for information about DA4 we use extra-special extraction tools to squeeze every ounce of meaning from every word and sentence But when WE use words like dark, gritty and mature, they mean nothing and everything all at once! Anyway, I would have been down to be a spy stealing shit. I don't want to be leader of a powerful organisation again, that shit was dull, and everything about the ending of Trespasser suggested we'd be working primarily in the shadows with reduced resources. indeed it does. Which would be exactly what i want.
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Post by Superhik on Apr 10, 2019 3:18:04 GMT
I think people are interpreting "heists" or "spies" here a bit literally...does anyone expect you would('ve) played as outlaw game, robbing banks or similar? Seems more likely player&co would've been involved in faction wars: stealing intel, sabotage, etc..at the very least, seems like a good opportunity to add more depth to quests and mechanics. Regarding Solas, could be they're going for a more slow "build up" to final confrontation, with DA4 more like acting as staging ground and expanding other factions.
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Post by 10k on Apr 10, 2019 3:20:28 GMT
Read the article, and I'm not surprised. I'm not worried anymore about what DA4 will be, because I know most likely it will be a game that I'm not interested in. They scrapped some very good ideas. Smaller scale focused on deep choice and consequence, what more could I have asked for? But that's now gone. But hey we may be getting a DA4 multiplayer game! Thank goodness for CDPR. ME maybe dead but at least I actually have a Sci-fi single player game to look forward to. And who knows, maybe CDPR will make another great fantasy game that can replace DA for me. It's just so disheartening, 2 great franchises are gone; replaced by the live service crap. I truly think EA is trying to slowly kill BW. This quote from the article is very telling.
"BioWare games never sold quite as well as the FIFAs and Battlefields of the world, so it never felt like they could get quite as many resources as their colleagues at other studios. High-ranking BioWare staff openly wondered: Did EA’s executives really care about narrative? Did they really care about RPGs? Those questions have always lingered, and still do today."
What are EA doing to these games if they don't care about the story or narrative, and just want to stuff these games with microtransactions? I think EA is going to shut down BW then repurpose the ME and DA games as multiplayer live services.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Apr 10, 2019 3:25:08 GMT
Seems more likely player&co would've been involved in faction wars: stealing intel, sabotage, etc..at the very least, seems like a good opportunity to add more depth to quests and mechanics.
I hate Briala. I don't want to play her in a video game.
I would also worry about the spy aspect - I want to know from the beginning who, if anyone, I'm working for. I don't want it to be a surprise/twist at the end to basically turn the PC into a fool (like they kind of did with the Inquisitor).
But we know even less about the 'reboot' version so both of these could still be options or completely off the table. Sounds like BW don't know either.
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Post by leadintea on Apr 10, 2019 3:29:32 GMT
I think people are interpreting "heists" or "spies" here a bit literally...does anyone expect you would('ve) played as outlaw game, robbing banks or similar?Seems more likely player&co would've been involved in faction wars: stealing intel, sabotage, etc..at the very least, seems like a good opportunity to add more depth to quests and mechanics. Regarding Solas, could be they're going for a more slow "build up" to final confrontation, with DA4 more like acting as staging ground and expanding other factions. I'm just imagining WEWH and wondering how they'd make its mechanics a prominent feature of a game.
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Post by majesticjazz on Apr 10, 2019 4:12:35 GMT
In all fairness, we need to wait until Bioware shows us something on DA4 before we judge either way or another. The game is still 2-3 years away and could change for the better or worse based on how Anthem was received.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 10, 2019 4:21:18 GMT
Ahaha, I've found an old comment of mine, made in September '17... I still stand behind what I wrote Anyway, I'm slowly getting enamored with the idea of playing a spy - like, either infiltrating Inquisition or infiltrating someone else for Inquisition. That'd be a nice little subversion. Now instead of worrying about who's going to betray us, we're all going to be like ' what... I'm going to have to betray my companions at some point ?" Imagine all the puppyfaces! Or all the scenes where a companion declares friendship and being all 'I trust you with my life!' and we're all like "ahahaha... right *gulp*".
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Post by biggydx on Apr 10, 2019 4:23:50 GMT
I'm just gonna play wait and see; with very wide skeptical eyes mind you.
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Post by formerfiend on Apr 10, 2019 4:28:08 GMT
Joplin, to me, sounded brilliant. Smaller scale but deeper with more reactivity and more personality that are more about planning a thoughtful approach to a task with multiple options as opposed to collection and fetch quests? Yes, that. All of that.
Playing a Tevinter spy... wouldn't have been my first choice but there's intrigue there. Question of who we're spying for; could be the Inquisition, could be a Tevinter faction, could be the Qun, could be Solas - maybe we'd get the chance to switch allegiances and play sides against each other, who knows.
So it sounds like something that would have had a brilliant core gameplay progression with an intriguing story, and I think it'll probably go down as one of the great "what could have been" games that never saw the light of day.
My concerns with Morrison, along with just a concern about the trend towards live service gaming in general - end of ownership, pay to win, exploitative business models, lack of content for the price, disrupting the core experience - center mainly on how they point out Joplin's small scale and how the description of the Morrison project is more "epic". I want and have been saying for years that I want DA4 to be more smaller scale, intimate, not as world shaking as Inquisition was. And reading between the lines in this article, they seem to be going another way.
I do feel a degree of vindication here because I've been saying since Anthem's announcement that it's development would negatively impact DA4, and that certainly seems to be the case being that it got resources pulled from it to work on Anthem, it got a strong story driven single player experience project canceled and rebooted with this live service model in mind, where, good or bad, the single player story driven content is going to have to share space with multiplayer and the resources that could have gone to improving single player are going to multiplayer.
Ultimately, I wasn't gonna pre-order the game to start with. There are things I need to know about the game and it's story before I'll consider purchasing it. Do we play as the inquisitor?(if no, no purchase) Do we get to kill & stop Solas?(if no, no purchase) So on and so forth.
With this live service nonsense in place... I might pick up a used copy a while after release when the price has gone down and if I can get it on a black friday sale or something, providing it meets my other criteria.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 10, 2019 4:32:11 GMT
Ahaha, I've found an old comment of mine, made in September '17... I still stand behind what I wrote Anyway, I'm slowly getting enamored with the idea of playing a spy - like, either infiltrating Inquisition or infiltrating someone else for Inquisition. That'd be a nice little subversion. Now instead of worrying about who's going to betray us, we're all going to be like ' what... I'm going to have to betray my companions at some point ?" Imagine all the puppyfaces! Or all the scenes where a companion declares friendship and being all 'I trust you with my life!' and we're all like "ahahaha... right *gulp*". I’m pretty sure I expressed my hatred at that idea then too.
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Post by formerfiend on Apr 10, 2019 4:37:28 GMT
Ahaha, I've found an old comment of mine, made in September '17... I still stand behind what I wrote I’m pretty sure I expressed my hatred at that idea then too. Okay so I imagine you've likely explained this elsewhere but I've been gone for a while, so I'm curious if you'd indulge me and explain to me, in your ideal, what you want DA4 to be, game wise. I know you want to play the Inquisitor, but what do you want the game to be. What do you imagine the structure of it as being; what's the core gameplay loop, what's the story arc? What separates it and evolves it from Inquisition, in your mind? Aside from, I presume, a lack of cursing and nudity.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 10, 2019 8:01:12 GMT
Read the article, and I'm not surprised. I'm not worried anymore about what DA4 will be, because I know most likely it will be a game that I'm not interested in. They scrapped some very good ideas. Smaller scale focused on deep choice and consequence, what more could I have asked for? But that's now gone. But hey we may be getting a DA4 multiplayer game! Thank goodness for CDPR. ME maybe dead but at least I actually have a Sci-fi single player game to look forward to. And who knows, maybe CDPR will make another great fantasy game that can replace DA for me. It's just so disheartening, 2 great franchises are gone; replaced by the live service crap. I truly think EA is trying to slowly kill BW. This quote from the article is very telling. "BioWare games never sold quite as well as the FIFAs and Battlefields of the world, so it never felt like they could get quite as many resources as their colleagues at other studios. High-ranking BioWare staff openly wondered: Did EA’s executives really care about narrative? Did they really care about RPGs? Those questions have always lingered, and still do today."
What are EA doing to these games if they don't care about the story or narrative, and just want to stuff these games with microtransactions? I think EA is going to shut down BW then repurpose the ME and DA games as multiplayer live services. EA is trying to press all their studios into the GaaS mold. Bioware is dead. EA is just parading a corpse with that name around, knowing that there are some fans left desperate enough to give even the biggest pile of shit a shot if it comes with the "Bioware" logo. They could be hiring the most talented writers and it would do them no good at this point. EA doesn't give a crap about singleplayer gamers anymore. This has been known for years.
So maybe I need to reconsider my 70/30 Bioware's own fault assessment when it comes to their latest games. Because maybe the lack of vision is directly related to EA's demands. Maybe the problem is that Bioware has no clue anymore what kind of game they are even allowed to make. So every time they have a good idea, somebody in Bioware management is going to be like "Boy, I dunno if EA will be pleased with that... what else you got?" Years pass and they still don't know what to do to please both their fans and EA because these is NO common ground here. I pity those still working for this company because all their creativity gets stifled by EA and what they get from fans is hatred for fucking up their beloved franchises. It's a lose/lose situation.
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Post by mugwump on Apr 10, 2019 8:11:03 GMT
Development time squandered yet again and all because Bioware need Dragon Age to be a live service. What could possibly go wrong?
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