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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 20, 2016 22:32:38 GMT
I am not missing or ignoring any point. The essence of this discussion or the ideal that you are talking about is just another name for patriotism. When a foreigner comes and tells me that our people are smug and condescending, building a whole theory about our shortcomings as a nation out of a nonexistent museum I react. You apologize. No. Having unique ideals is its own thing. Patriotism is just what you do to enforce those ideals. So naturally, it's hard to be patriotic, if you have little to enforce. And if I have to apologize for anything, it's your making a mountain out of a geographically incorrect molehill. He got the city wrong, shit happens. But if there is a museum out there in Toronto or Ottawa being deliberately misleading, is that something you'd be proud of? Because I sure as hell wouldn't. Also note keyword: if. From what I know of Hawkeye he's pretty on the ball, I haven't known him to lie. So there is a grain of salt. But what were my words? So what should I apologize for? Valuing honesty over "he's an American, fuck him!" ? I brought the military into discussion because they are Canadians, our sons and daughters, our fathers and mothers, they are not some nondescript individuals. They died on foreign soil to protect our freedom to say that we have no ideals. As for my attitude pray tell me what exactly needs explaining? The military does not dictate the social trends of our country. I'd have thought that was obvious to you. The military is not responsible for what the average Canadian thinks therefore they are not relevant to, or included in, the scope of this discussion. In a nutshell? Why you're acting precisely with the smugness he's trying to point out.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: docsteely/HKyouma-san
XBL Gamertag: docsteely
PSN: docsteely
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Post by docsteely on Oct 20, 2016 22:33:27 GMT
But as a Canadian, I am anti-American, right? C'mon Canadian buddy, don't be like that. I love hockey and maple syrup too. See, we're bonding! Bring it in! Anytime!
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Post by corpusdei on Oct 20, 2016 22:58:46 GMT
Rule #1 for Americans visiting Britain - pretend you're Canadian. We can't tell the difference and you'll be much better received. My sister and BIL visited London earlier this year for several days. They loved it and were treated very well. Paris/France on the other hand... not so well and stated the city was filthy. Heh - tell 'en not to take it personally about Paris - they still haven't recovered from a McDonald's being opened there Outside of Paris, if you learn to speak French, the people are generally much more helpful and friendly - but you have to show willing. It doesn't matter if your French isn't great, it's making an effort that counts - just courteous I suppose. Waitress's face in one restaurant when my dad accidentally ordered quatre litres du vin (4 litres of wine) rather than quart (1/4) with lunch!
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Post by Nightman on Oct 20, 2016 23:01:51 GMT
How can you not like Canadians?
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 20, 2016 23:10:39 GMT
So let's agree to disagree. You are unable to provide me with one single example where you have personally experienced this Canadian anti-Americanism you are talking about, yet you persist in calling it such. And imo your last phrase is exactly condescending and smug. I'm willing to, but as for examples, what would you accept? If I try to give you an example, you'll tell me it's in my head. Well simply put, it's not. And I'll tell you why; the Canadians have been our partners in space for nearly 40 years, but that doesn't mean that the partnership has been necessarily equal. The contribution from Canada has been vital and beneficial, but to put yourselves on simple technological and cooperative parity in that sense is simply factual incorrect.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Morlanwen on Oct 20, 2016 23:12:58 GMT
My sister and BIL visited London earlier this year for several days. They loved it and were treated very well. Paris/France on the other hand... not so well and stated the city was filthy. Heh - tell 'en not to take it personally about Paris - they still haven't recovered from a McDonald's being opened there Outside of Paris, if you learn to speak French, the people are generally much more helpful and friendly - but you have to show willing. It doesn't matter if your French isn't great, it's making an effort that counts - just courteous I suppose. Waitress's face in one restaurant when my dad accidentally ordered quatre litres du vin (4 litres of wine) rather than quart (1/4) with lunch! What can I say? It's so damn true. Paris is maybe a nice city, but it's filthy. And Parisian are rude as hell (I know, I've been living there for 20 years), always in a hurry, like their lives were at stake, and not helpfull at all. I say that and I'm french :/ True too, once you get outside of Paris, people tend to be more open, and yes, especially if you say just a few words in french (a simple "merci" is enough ) (but we are style rude and arrogant: we have a reputation around the world, and we want to keep it )
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: docsteely/HKyouma-san
XBL Gamertag: docsteely
PSN: docsteely
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Post by docsteely on Oct 20, 2016 23:16:25 GMT
I am not missing or ignoring any point. The essence of this discussion or the ideal that you are talking about is just another name for patriotism. When a foreigner comes and tells me that our people are smug and condescending, building a whole theory about our shortcomings as a nation out of a nonexistent museum I react. You apologize. No. Having unique ideals is its own thing. Patriotism is just what you do to enforce those ideals. So naturally, it's hard to be patriotic, if you have little to enforce. And if I have to apologize for anything, it's your making a mountain out of a geographically incorrect molehill. He got the city wrong, shit happens. But if there is a museum out there in Toronto or Ottawa being deliberately misleading, is that something you'd be proud of? Because I sure as hell wouldn't. Also note keyword: if. From what I know of Hawkeye he's pretty on the ball, I haven't known him to lie. So there is a grain of salt. But what were my words? So what should I apologize for? Valuing honesty over "he's an American, fuck him!" ? I brought the military into discussion because they are Canadians, our sons and daughters, our fathers and mothers, they are not some nondescript individuals. They died on foreign soil to protect our freedom to say that we have no ideals. As for my attitude pray tell me what exactly needs explaining? The military does not dictate the social trends of our country. I'd have thought that was obvious to you. The military is not responsible for what the average Canadian thinks therefore they are not relevant to, or included in, the scope of this discussion. In a nutshell? Why you're acting precisely with the smugness he's trying to point out. Let me give another quote from what you said: "The only time we're patriotic and "super Canadian" is at hockey games for fuck's sake." I have given you other examples of Canadians (the military) who act IMO out of patriotism, you keep insisting it's not related and that they die for other countries ideals, it doesn't matter that those ideals are universal for all the civilized world. It's OK, it's your opinion and I respect it. Does not change mine. I am not making a mountain over a geographically incorrect molehill as you say. I am making a mountain over his opinion that all Canadians are anti-American, despite being unable to provide one, just one, personal example of that anti-Americanism. I will let go the fact that he's unable to statistically prove that opinion, because he already conceded that. Where exactly did I say or imply "he's an American, fuck him!"? Please point it out for me. And I dislike being called smug. I find it rather personal. I suppose it is too much to ask to keep personal out of this thread?
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 20, 2016 23:20:50 GMT
I don't necessarily agree with any of the video... #10 especially is me. The only ones allowed to bitch about our country's direction is us. Everyone else can fite us.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 20, 2016 23:22:55 GMT
No. Having unique ideals is its own thing. Patriotism is just what you do to enforce those ideals. So naturally, it's hard to be patriotic, if you have little to enforce. And if I have to apologize for anything, it's your making a mountain out of a geographically incorrect molehill. He got the city wrong, shit happens. But if there is a museum out there in Toronto or Ottawa being deliberately misleading, is that something you'd be proud of? Because I sure as hell wouldn't. Also note keyword: if. From what I know of Hawkeye he's pretty on the ball, I haven't known him to lie. So there is a grain of salt. But what were my words? So what should I apologize for? Valuing honesty over "he's an American, fuck him!" ? The military does not dictate the social trends of our country. I'd have thought that was obvious to you. The military is not responsible for what the average Canadian thinks therefore they are not relevant to, or included in, the scope of this discussion. In a nutshell? Why you're acting precisely with the smugness he's trying to point out. Let me give another quote from what you said: "The only time we're patriotic and "super Canadian" is at hockey games for fuck's sake." I have given you other examples of Canadians (the military) who act IMO out of patriotism, you keep insisting it's not related and that they die for other countries ideals, it doesn't matter that those ideals are universal for all the civilized world. It's OK, it's your opinion and I respect it. Does not change mine. I am not making a mountain over a geographically incorrect molehill as you say. I am making a mountain over his opinion that all Canadians are anti-American, despite being unable to provide one, just one, personal example of that anti-Americanism. I will let go the fact that he's unable to statistically prove that opinion, because he already conceded that. Where exactly did I say or imply "he's an American, fuck him!"? Please point it out for me. And I dislike being called smug. I find it rather personal. I suppose it is too much to ask to keep personal out of this thread? Let me ask you something. What does it mean to be Canadian? Oh, by the way, I never said all Canadians are anti-American; case in point, Crutch. I said that there is a cultural trend towards anti-Americanism via passive-aggressiveness, smugness (including you right now, yes), and distaste. By no means are you the only country its limited too. Many Aussies and Kiwis hold negative opinions of the United States, as do many Europeans. As I said as well, what example would you accept? You're being incredibly defensive against my assertion, and I'm refraining from listing any experience out of worry that you'd simply move the goalpost. What I've stated can really only be measured indirectly; you can't really make up a poll that says 'are you anti-American' and how (well you could, but it's like racism, in that even the most vociferous racist will often state that they aren't bigoted and fight vehemently against the assertion.) As it is, to be honest, I would label your interaction with me as showing the exact temperament I might find in a Canadian who doesn't hold a positive opinion of Americans. Now, I don't know if that's the case or not, but you're certainly acting that way towards me.
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Retired Birthday Wizard
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: docsteely/HKyouma-san
XBL Gamertag: docsteely
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Post by docsteely on Oct 20, 2016 23:24:56 GMT
So let's agree to disagree. You are unable to provide me with one single example where you have personally experienced this Canadian anti-Americanism you are talking about, yet you persist in calling it such. And imo your last phrase is exactly condescending and smug. I'm willing to, but as for examples, what would you accept? If I try to give you an example, you'll tell me it's in my head. Well simply put, it's not. And I'll tell you why; the Canadians have been our partners in space for nearly 40 years, but that doesn't mean that the partnership has been necessarily equal. The contribution from Canada has been vital and beneficial, but to put yourselves on simple technological and cooperative parity in that sense is simply factual incorrect. And I would never for the love of God tell you we're equals in that partnership! Moreover I am, as a Canadian, deeply grateful for the role the US is giving us in that!
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N6
Retired Birthday Wizard
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: docsteely/HKyouma-san
XBL Gamertag: docsteely
PSN: docsteely
Posts: 5,525 Likes: 23,176
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Post by docsteely on Oct 20, 2016 23:26:36 GMT
Let me give another quote from what you said: "The only time we're patriotic and "super Canadian" is at hockey games for fuck's sake." I have given you other examples of Canadians (the military) who act IMO out of patriotism, you keep insisting it's not related and that they die for other countries ideals, it doesn't matter that those ideals are universal for all the civilized world. It's OK, it's your opinion and I respect it. Does not change mine. I am not making a mountain over a geographically incorrect molehill as you say. I am making a mountain over his opinion that all Canadians are anti-American, despite being unable to provide one, just one, personal example of that anti-Americanism. I will let go the fact that he's unable to statistically prove that opinion, because he already conceded that. Where exactly did I say or imply "he's an American, fuck him!"? Please point it out for me. And I dislike being called smug. I find it rather personal. I suppose it is too much to ask to keep personal out of this thread? Let me ask you something. What does it mean to be Canadian? I already answered that.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 20, 2016 23:32:00 GMT
I'm willing to, but as for examples, what would you accept? If I try to give you an example, you'll tell me it's in my head. Well simply put, it's not. And I'll tell you why; the Canadians have been our partners in space for nearly 40 years, but that doesn't mean that the partnership has been necessarily equal. The contribution from Canada has been vital and beneficial, but to put yourselves on simple technological and cooperative parity in that sense is simply factual incorrect. And I would never for the love of God tell you we're equals in that partnership! Moreover I am, as a Canadian, deeply grateful for the role the US is giving us in that! I'm glad we agree then. Several of your compatriots in Toronto and Ottawa think otherwise, and it's rather incorrect.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 20, 2016 23:32:47 GMT
Let me ask you something. What does it mean to be Canadian? I already answered that. No you didn't. Culturally, what does it mean to be Canadian? What is being Canadian all about?
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Post by Ravenous Bear on Oct 20, 2016 23:34:24 GMT
My sister and BIL visited London earlier this year for several days. They loved it and were treated very well. Paris/France on the other hand... not so well and stated the city was filthy. Heh - tell 'en not to take it personally about Paris - they still haven't recovered from a McDonald's being opened there Outside of Paris, if you learn to speak French, the people are generally much more helpful and friendly - but you have to show willing. It doesn't matter if your French isn't great, it's making an effort that counts - just courteous I suppose. Waitress's face in one restaurant when my dad accidentally ordered quatre litres du vin (4 litres of wine) rather than quart (1/4) with lunch! Heh McDonald's is crap food; I have ate there for several years. But they saw human feces along the streets of Paris. My sister and BIL are well educated, very bright people and they did attempt to learn French in Paris. Still they had a lukewarm reception, especially at one of the restaurants they dined at.
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Post by Nightman on Oct 20, 2016 23:36:45 GMT
I am actually seriously considering moving from phoenix to Vancouver... I went there a year and a half ago and I just fell in love with the place. Oh yeah, I almost forgot..I do have one thing I would like to bash on Canadians about.... Canadian bacon sucks. ^^^^^^^^ is also a really dope movie..RIP John Candy
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 20, 2016 23:36:53 GMT
I'll be honest with you, I personally don't understand the dislike many Americans have for the French. Sure, you're smug bastards, but that's just who you are. It's always been apart of your cultural identity to be mildly xenophobic (in the charming way, and I do say that with unironic conviction). You aren't all that bad.
Granted, I think Paris is way overrated as a destination. I preferred the Riviera, for a variety of reasons. Plus, the people who live on the Mediterranean are much more equal-opportunity in their dismissive attitudes: it doesn't matter if you're an American or Brit or German or even a Parisian. You're a dirty tourist who's crowding up all the good beaches.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 20, 2016 23:45:10 GMT
Vancouver's nice, but there are some places further north in both BC, Yukon, and Alaska that are even better in my opinion.
But Phoenix? The Valley of the Sun has a special place near and dear to my heart. It's one of my favorite places in the world. It's the desert and mountains that gets me every time. I have most of my family on my dad's side in Phoenix, and I get out there about one every year or two.
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Attracted to ex-templars.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Morlanwen on Oct 20, 2016 23:47:45 GMT
Thing is, IMO, Americans and French are the same. I mean we both are arrogant (in our own way), we both think we are the true founders of democracy, we both are preachy etc. Nothing will change that for a long time, but individually, Americans or French people can be great
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Post by Nightman on Oct 20, 2016 23:47:52 GMT
French people are amazing...I mean..look at a few examples of the things they have given us: really tasty amazing mustard [ and of course, the one, the only,Gerard Depardieu
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Retired Birthday Wizard
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: docsteely/HKyouma-san
XBL Gamertag: docsteely
PSN: docsteely
Posts: 5,525 Likes: 23,176
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Post by docsteely on Oct 21, 2016 0:04:36 GMT
No you didn't. Culturally, what does it mean to be Canadian? What is being Canadian all about? Grit, tolerance and humo(u)r.
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Post by Ravenous Bear on Oct 21, 2016 0:24:16 GMT
I'll be honest with you, I personally don't understand the dislike many Americans have for the French. Sure, you're smug bastards, but that's just who you are. It's always been apart of your cultural identity to be mildly xenophobic (in the charming way, and I do say that with unironic conviction). You aren't all that bad. Granted, I think Paris is way overrated as a destination. I preferred the Riviera, for a variety of reasons. Plus, the people who live on the Mediterranean are much more equal-opportunity in their dismissive attitudes: it doesn't matter if you're an American or Brit or German or even a Parisian. You're a dirty tourist who's crowding up all the good beaches. Dislike? Are you talking about me. I was just sharing my sister's and BIL's experience in Paris for a few days. And they do not dislike the French or any other ethnic group.
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Retired Birthday Wizard
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: docsteely/HKyouma-san
XBL Gamertag: docsteely
PSN: docsteely
Posts: 5,525 Likes: 23,176
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Post by docsteely on Oct 21, 2016 0:25:14 GMT
Let me give another quote from what you said: "The only time we're patriotic and "super Canadian" is at hockey games for fuck's sake." I have given you other examples of Canadians (the military) who act IMO out of patriotism, you keep insisting it's not related and that they die for other countries ideals, it doesn't matter that those ideals are universal for all the civilized world. It's OK, it's your opinion and I respect it. Does not change mine. I am not making a mountain over a geographically incorrect molehill as you say. I am making a mountain over his opinion that all Canadians are anti-American, despite being unable to provide one, just one, personal example of that anti-Americanism. I will let go the fact that he's unable to statistically prove that opinion, because he already conceded that. Where exactly did I say or imply "he's an American, fuck him!"? Please point it out for me. And I dislike being called smug. I find it rather personal. I suppose it is too much to ask to keep personal out of this thread? Let me ask you something. What does it mean to be Canadian? Oh, by the way, I never said all Canadians are anti-American; case in point, Crutch. I said that there is a cultural trend towards anti-Americanism via passive-aggressiveness, smugness (including you right now, yes), and distaste. By no means are you the only country its limited too. Many Aussies and Kiwis hold negative opinions of the United States, as do many Europeans. As I said as well, what example would you accept? You're being incredibly defensive against my assertion, and I'm refraining from listing any experience out of worry that you'd simply move the goalpost. What I've stated can really only be measured indirectly; you can't really make up a poll that says 'are you anti-American' and how (well you could, but it's like racism, in that even the most vociferous racist will often state that they aren't bigoted and fight vehemently against the assertion.) As it is, to be honest, I would label your interaction with me as showing the exact temperament I might find in a Canadian who doesn't hold a positive opinion of Americans. Now, I don't know if that's the case or not, but you're certainly acting that way towards me.
So let me get this straight: because I tell you that you are wrong when you try to deduce a cultural trend out of a stupid and childish misrepresentation of facts (which as I said before I do not in any way approve) I am smug and anti-American?
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Post by Verfallen on Oct 21, 2016 0:25:41 GMT
Vancouver's nice, but there are some places further north in both BC, Yukon, and Alaska that are even better in my opinion. <snip> ... I take it you like winter?
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mousestalker
Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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ღ The Untitled
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mousestalker
Just here for the cosplay
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mousestalker
Mousestalker
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by mousestalker on Oct 21, 2016 0:52:34 GMT
Canada shares (or borrows) a fair amount of its culture and entertainment from the US. Very few Canadians are not exposed to it on a daily basis. Our economies are also intertwined. Where the countries differ are politics and political culture. Canadians and Americans historically have assigned different weights to different values. By way of example, while both countries value freedom of expression, it is more limited in Canada. I am an American. I have lived in Canada. I prefer America. But that does not mean Canada lacks culture, lacks a different culture or is defective in any way. I simply prefer my native land. If other people prefer other lands, then that does not diminish my country in any way. They are, and should be, free to be wrong different. J'aime la France et les français. Although I probably got that wrong.
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CrutchCricket
The Emperor Daft Serious
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 21, 2016 0:54:56 GMT
Let me give another quote from what you said: "The only time we're patriotic and "super Canadian" is at hockey games for fuck's sake." I have given you other examples of Canadians (the military) who act IMO out of patriotism, you keep insisting it's not related and that they die for other countries ideals, it doesn't matter that those ideals are universal for all the civilized world. It's OK, it's your opinion and I respect it. Does not change mine. I am not making a mountain over a geographically incorrect molehill as you say. I am making a mountain over his opinion that all Canadians are anti-American, despite being unable to provide one, just one, personal example of that anti-Americanism. I will let go the fact that he's unable to statistically prove that opinion, because he already conceded that. Where exactly did I say or imply "he's an American, fuck him!"? Please point it out for me. And I dislike being called smug. I find it rather personal. I suppose it is too much to ask to keep personal out of this thread? You didn't bring up Canadian soldiers in response to that, you brought them up as examples that anti-Americanism doesn't exist. But even applied against that, it doesn't hold up. Almost every country in the world has a standing military and any country who's ever fought anyone has had soldiers go off to war and die. Do you really "measure patriotism" by those numbers? Or how about a different question: I have zero intention of ever enlisting in the military. Am I incapable of patriotism? Uneventful military service is not the norm for the majority of people in well-off Western countries, let alone fighting a war and dying in it; US included. So why then would you bring it up when I am discussing a very normal, very civilian affair? I went to Vegas as a tourist. Some of those people in that German bar were probably tourists too. If I go down to Niagara Falls, there'll probably be some tourists there too, from the US or other places. What great Canadian act within the context of normal civilian/tourist activities will show national pride comparable to what I saw in Vegas? Am I saying we need to break out in O Canada at every meal? No, but what is that we do (even once in a while) in the context of our every day lives that shows pride in our country? Quote where he said all Canadians are anti-American. At most what I recall was reference to an identifiable social trend of anti-Americanism among some Canadians. Something which is well documented. I was going to link some stuff, but honestly, there's so much on even the first page of Google, it'd be a waste of effort. Seriously, just look it up. Say? No. Imply? When a foreigner comes and tells me that our people are smug and condescending, building a whole theory about our shortcomings as a nation out of a nonexistent museum I react. What does where he's from have to do with it? Tell you what, pretend he's an ethnic minority and swap out the word foreigner for the proper word (doesn't even have to be a slur) for that minority. Like how it sounds? (this very phenomenon is illustrated in the Aussie article he linked btw). Earlier you also imply he's "less qualified" to venture an opinion on Canadian social trends on the same basis. Say what? So he can't read studies and articles or come up here and interview people and collate his findings because he's not a resident? Hawkeye actually makes the same clam in the first page of wrongthink when he told a European poster his opinion on American politics didn't matter. To both cases I call bullshit. Whether you have an opinion worth hearing or not is based on how well sourced it is, not trivial crap like where your legal permanent address falls, or which side of a border you came out your mother. I am completely apathetic politically and I couldn't care less- thus I can almost guarantee Hawkeye, an American, would have a more informed and thus valuable opinion on Canadian politics than I would. Similarly there's likely Americans out there just like me or worse and you could probably teach them a thing or two about their own system. It's not who you are, it's what you know, and what you can argue.
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