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Post by Syv on May 29, 2019 16:46:08 GMT
Allow me to emphasize Morrigan and Sten's dialogue for you: Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female?Sten: Either.Morrigan: So I am not truly a woman to you? Hmm. 'Tis good to know. I'm not invested much in identity politics, but it seems clear to me that the general idea for Qunari gender roles has always been implied to be close to what we got in Inquisition, and that's not getting into how Bull, being a Qunari spy, could have put a more positive spin on the idea. Same thing for conversations between Sten and female Wardens. Whenever people look for an actual contradiction between what Sten says and what DAI shows, they can't find one. What's actually happening is that Sten's dialog was cryptic enough -- Sten's awfully taciturn -- for people to be able to project their existing views onto Thedas. Turns out they were wrong. Not everything is cryptic with Sten, it's as clear as water. Did you even play with a female warden before claiming such nonsense ? I'll be nice and I'll take a bit of my time and put one of the whole conversations between my female warden and Sten. ( Do I need to mention there are other lines ? ) Sten : I don't understand, you look like a woman. You are a Grey warden, so It follows that you can't be a woman !Female warden : Why not ?Sten : Women are priest, artisans, blahblah, ( we already all know this line ) Female warden : That's not universal truth, some women fight. Sten : Why would women ever wish to be men ? That makes no sense. Female warden : They don't want to be men, they want to be women who fight.Sten : Do they also wish to live on the moon ? That's as attainable ! ( biology implied and their role that doesn't fit )
Female Warden : I'm a woman and I'm fighting.Sten : One of those things can't be true.
Sten ( now the most interesting biological reasoning ) A person is born Qunari or human, or elven, or dwarf. he doesn't choose that. The size of his hands, whether he is clever or foolish, the land he comes from, the color of his hair. These are beyond his control. We do not choose, we simply are. ( meaning that women cannot be warriors because of biology, they were born that way to do other things, they have other roles, the roles chosen for them in relationship with biology )
___ Excuse me, what is cryptic exactly ? How people could project their existing view with so much meaning and content, that's pretty much clear to me. You guys are blind or what ?
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Post by alanc9 on May 29, 2019 17:45:18 GMT
Wait a second. Exactly which supposed contradiction are we supposed to be looking at here? I may be a bit lost. A female warden is not coherent with the Qun, sure, but nobody ever said she was.
I thought we were talking about Krem, again; Krem isn't a problem because Krem is male. Sorry if I confused things. Can you sort this out?
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Post by Iakus on May 29, 2019 18:16:19 GMT
The fuck they didn't. Sten was clear on his views. They want to softball everything now. It's a different universe, not our own. Keep modern trends out of it. Allow me to emphasize Morrigan and Sten's dialogue for you: Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female?Sten: Either.Morrigan: So I am not truly a woman to you? Hmm. 'Tis good to know. I'm not invested much in identity politics, but it seems clear to me that the general idea for Qunari gender roles has always been implied to be close to what we got in Inquisition, and that's not getting into how Bull, being a Qunari spy, could have put a more positive spin on the idea. IB seemed to think Cassandra would do well under the Qun, despite her being a woman and a warrior...
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Post by thats1evildude on May 29, 2019 18:29:00 GMT
Same thing for conversations between Sten and female Wardens. Whenever people look for an actual contradiction between what Sten says and what DAI shows, they can't find one. What's actually happening is that Sten's dialog was cryptic enough -- Sten's awfully taciturn -- for people to be able to project their existing views onto Thedas. Turns out they were wrong. Not everything is cryptic with Sten, it's as clear as water. Did you even play with a female warden before claiming such nonsense ? I'll be nice and I'll take a bit of my time and put one of the whole conversations between my female warden and Sten. ( Do I need to mention there are other lines ? ) Sten : I don't understand, you look like a woman. You are a Grey warden, so It follows that you can't be a woman !Female warden : Why not ?Sten : Women are priest, artisans, blahblah, ( we already all know this line ) Female warden : That's not universal truth, some women fight. Sten : Why would women ever wish to be men ? That makes no sense. Female warden : They don't want to be men, they want to be women who fight.Sten : Do they also wish to live on the moon ? That's as attainable ! ( biology implied and their role that doesn't fit )
Female Warden : I'm a woman and I'm fighting.Sten : One of those things can't be true.
Sten ( now the most interesting biological reasoning ) A person is born Qunari or human, or elven, or dwarf. he doesn't choose that. The size of his hands, whether he is clever or foolish, the land he comes from, the color of his hair. These are beyond his control. We do not choose, we simply are. ( meaning that women cannot be warriors because of biology, they were born that way to do other things, they have other roles, the roles chosen for them in relationship with biology )
___ Excuse me, what is cryptic exactly ? How people could project their existing view with so much meaning and content, that's pretty much clear to me. You guys are blind or what ? No. That still doesn't contradict with what was established in Inquisition. Only male qunari fight. Some of them happen to have been born women, but to the qunari, they are now men. Allow me to emphasize Morrigan and Sten's dialogue for you: Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female?Sten: Either.Morrigan: So I am not truly a woman to you? Hmm. 'Tis good to know. I'm not invested much in identity politics, but it seems clear to me that the general idea for Qunari gender roles has always been implied to be close to what we got in Inquisition, and that's not getting into how Bull, being a Qunari spy, could have put a more positive spin on the idea. IB seemed to think Cassandra would do well under the Qun, despite her being a woman and a warrior... Assuming she didn't die fighting, that is.
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Post by Iakus on May 29, 2019 18:35:08 GMT
IB seemed to think Cassandra would do well under the Qun, despite her being a woman and a warrior... Assuming she didn't die fighting, that is. Goes without saying, of course. But it does give me the idea that Iron Bull is lying to himself about how accepting the Qun is. I mean, does he really want to consider Dalish with her mouth sewn shut?
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Post by thats1evildude on May 29, 2019 18:41:29 GMT
But it does give me the idea that Iron Bull is lying to himself about how accepting the Qun is. I mean, does he really want to consider Dalish with her mouth sewn shut? That dialogue indicates that Iron Bull gets around that problem by not thinking about it at all.
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Post by Iakus on May 29, 2019 18:56:14 GMT
But it does give me the idea that Iron Bull is lying to himself about how accepting the Qun is. I mean, does he really want to consider Dalish with her mouth sewn shut? That dialogue indicates that Iron Bull gets around that problem by not thinking about it at all. He says he doesn't think about what would happen to his companions under the Qun. Which again, tells me he knows deep down that Cassandra, Dorian, Krem and the Chargers, would not be accepted under the Qun AT ALL. Or perhaps the Qun are being given the "lighter and fuzzier" treatment to make them more, well, "human"
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on May 29, 2019 19:00:32 GMT
No. That still doesn't contradict with what was established in Inquisition. Only male qunari fight. Some of them happen to have been born women, but to the qunari, they are now men. Then my question is why did Sten think the Warden was a woman if it's your role in the Qun that determines you're a male? Why wouldn't he think of the warden as a male right from the beginning. Sten shouldn't have been so confused, after all he's the one who brings the issue up in the first place. On the other hand bull tells Cass "it depends, in or out of your armor" when she asks if he sees her as male.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 29, 2019 19:06:16 GMT
No. That still doesn't contradict with what was established in Inquisition. Only male qunari fight. Some of them happen to have been born women, but to the qunari, they are now men. Then my question is why did Sten think the Warden was a woman if it's your role in the Qun that determines you're a male? Why wouldn't he think of the warden as a male right from the beginning. Sten shouldn't have been so confused, after all he's the one who brings the issue up in the first place. On the other hand bull tells Cass "it depends, in or out of your armor" when she asks if he sees her as male. Because you present yourself as a woman. That’s the contradiction he keeps struggling with.
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on May 29, 2019 19:07:33 GMT
Then my question is why did Sten think the Warden was a woman if it's your role in the Qun that determines you're a male? Why wouldn't he think of the warden as a male right from the beginning. Sten shouldn't have been so confused, after all he's the one who brings the issue up in the first place. On the other hand bull tells Cass "it depends, in or out of your armor" when she asks if he sees her as male. Because you present yourself as a woman. That’s the contradiction he keeps struggling with. Let me throw something at you: My Warden only mentioned being a woman and corrected Sten after he brought it up.
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Post by Iakus on May 29, 2019 19:09:34 GMT
No. That still doesn't contradict with what was established in Inquisition. Only male qunari fight. Some of them happen to have been born women, but to the qunari, they are now men. Then my question is why did Sten think the Warden was a woman if it's your role in the Qun that determines you're a male? Why wouldn't he think of the warden as a male right from the beginning. Sten shouldn't have been so confused, after all he's the one who brings the issue up in the first place. On the other hand bull tells Cass "it depends, in or out of your armor" when she asks if he sees her as male. Wynne too: Sten: Women are artisans, or merchants. Or farmers, though you don't seem particularly... earthy. They have no place in war. Wynne: I can't even begin to tell you what's wrong with that idea. Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it. Wynne: I do not understand. Do the Qunari have no female mages? No female warriors? Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men? Wynne: Do you believe I wish to be a man?
Sten: You cannot wish to be a man. It will lead you only to frustration.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 29, 2019 19:14:22 GMT
Because you present yourself as a woman. That’s the contradiction he keeps struggling with. Let me throw something at you: My Warden only mentioned being a woman and corrected Sten after he brought it up. Let's consider this dialogue Sten has with Leliana. Sten: Why are you here? Leliana: What do you mean? Sten: Women are priests, artisans, farmers or shopkeepers. None of them have any place in fighting. Leliana: I have no idea how to answer this... Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it. Leliana: Do you mean your people have no female mages or warriors?Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men? We know for a fact that the qunari have female mages — you can play one in DAI — and yet here Sten claims that they don't. How is that possible? Because to the qunari, all saarebas are men regardless of their actual gender. And yet, down in the south, he sees mages like Morrigan and Wynne (and potentially the Warden) clearly presenting themselves as women. They refer to themselves in women in idle conversations and wear make-up and women's clothing. It is a contradiction unacceptable to the Qun.
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Post by Iakus on May 29, 2019 19:15:54 GMT
My Warden only mentioned being a woman and corrected Sten after he brought it up. Let's consider this dialogue Sten has with Leliana. Sten: Why are you here? Leliana: What do you mean? Sten: Women are priests, artisans, farmers or shopkeepers. None of them have any place in fighting. Leliana: I have no idea how to answer this... Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it. Leliana: Do you mean your people have no female mages or warriors? Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men? We know for a fact that the qunari have female mages — you can play one in DAI — and yet here Sten claims that they don't. How is that possible? Because to the qunari, all saarebas are men regardless of their actual gender.And yet, down in the south, he sees mages like Morrigan and Wynne (and potentially the Warden) clearly presenting themselves as women. They wear make-up and do their hair and wear women's clothing. It is a contradiction unacceptable to the Qun. Not exactly. Saarebas are neither men nor women to the Qunari. They are "things" to them. Tools to be used. Saarebas actually translates to "dangerous thing"
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Post by thats1evildude on May 29, 2019 19:20:50 GMT
Let's consider this dialogue Sten has with Leliana. Sten: Why are you here? Leliana: What do you mean? Sten: Women are priests, artisans, farmers or shopkeepers. None of them have any place in fighting. Leliana: I have no idea how to answer this... Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it. Leliana: Do you mean your people have no female mages or warriors? Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men? We know for a fact that the qunari have female mages — you can play one in DAI — and yet here Sten claims that they don't. How is that possible? Because to the qunari, all saarebas are men regardless of their actual gender.And yet, down in the south, he sees mages like Morrigan and Wynne (and potentially the Warden) clearly presenting themselves as women. They wear make-up and do their hair and wear women's clothing. It is a contradiction unacceptable to the Qun. Not exactly. Saarebas are neither men nor women to the Qunari. They are "things" to them. tools to be used. Saarebas actually translates to "dangerous thing" That is an incorrect interpretation of the term "bas," which applies to all non-qunari. The qunari call non-qunari (and their own mages) "things" to de-humanize them and justify their treatment. It doesn't offer any assessments of their gender.
Think about it: if Sten thought of all the "bas" around him as genderless things, then why does he bring up their gender?
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Post by Iakus on May 29, 2019 19:27:17 GMT
Not exactly. Saarebas are neither men nor women to the Qunari. They are "things" to them. tools to be used. Saarebas actually translates to "dangerous thing" That is an incorrect interpretation of the term "bas," which applies to all non-qunari. The qunari call non-qunari (and their own mages) "things" to de-humanize them and justify their treatment. It doesn't offer any assessments of their gender.
Think about it: if Sten thought of all the "bas" around him as genderless things, then why does he bring up their gender?
But we aren't talking about "bas" we are talking about "saarebas" Non-Qunari mages are called "bas saarebas" so they are clearly two different things.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 29, 2019 19:38:54 GMT
Now you’re splitting hairs. Bas means “thing” regardless of the context it is used.
Sten himself says their mages are men. I repeat: Sten himself says their mages are men. He doesn’t think of them as genderless things.
Simply accept that the Qunari are willing to make bizarre leaps in logic in order to strengthen their forces (ie. declaring skilled female fighters as men) and move on with your life.
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Post by Iakus on May 29, 2019 19:40:52 GMT
Now you’re splitting hairs. Bas means thing regardless of the context it is used. Sten himself says their mages are men. I repeat: Sten himself says their mages are men. He doesn’t think of them as genderless things. Simply accept that the Qunari are willing to make bizarre leaps in logic in order to strengthen their forces (ie. declaring skilled female fighters as men) and move on with your life. I'm willing to accept that the Qunari are either hypocritical or perhaps poorly written. Does that make you happy? Move on with your life? You realize we're arguing on a video game forum, yes?
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Post by thats1evildude on May 29, 2019 19:41:30 GMT
Now you’re splitting hairs. Bas means thing regardless of the context it is used. Sten himself says their mages are men. I repeat: Sten himself says their mages are men. He doesn’t think of them as genderless things. Simply accept that the Qunari are willing to make bizarre leaps in logic in order to strengthen their forces (ie. declaring skilled female fighters as men) and move on with your life. I'm willing to accept that the Qunari are either hypocritical or perhaps poorly written. Does that make you happy? Yes, that is the correct position. Qunari views on gender ARE hypocritical. They twist their own strict views on gender roles to serve their own ends.
Move on with your life? You realize we're arguing on a video game forum, yes? Yes. But even in online discussions, there are constructive ways to spend your time and energy. This is not one of them.
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Post by Iakus on May 29, 2019 19:42:57 GMT
I'm willing to accept that the Qunari are either hypocritical or perhaps poorly written. Does that make you happy? Yes, that is the correct position. I'm SO glad you approve
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Post by Iakus on May 29, 2019 19:46:20 GMT
I'm willing to accept that the Qunari are either hypocritical or perhaps poorly written. Does that make you happy? Yes, that is the correct position. The qunari are hypocrites. Move on with your life? You realize we're arguing on a video game forum, yes? Yes. But even by the rather lax standards of participating in a video game forum, you are wasting your time and energy fussing over such a minor point.
response to edit: Tell you what, why don't you tell me what my opinions SHOULD be, and we can save ourselves the trouble of actually having a debate?
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Post by thats1evildude on May 29, 2019 19:58:50 GMT
I get that the whole idea of the Aqun-Athlok SEEMS to contradict what Sten said in Origins. I initially thought that as well. But when I actually considered it, I realized that the concept resolved some outstanding issues from DAO, the most notable being the issue of female qunari mages.
In any case, this thread is called "DA: The Future," not "DA: Let's Talk About Qunari Gender Roles." So could the conversation steer in a different direction?
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Post by cankiie on May 29, 2019 21:42:28 GMT
Identity-politics are weird. yeah we been trying to say that us existing is not politicsTM so tell me about it bruh Wandering signs with political statements on them, all of you!
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Post by Absafraginlootly on May 30, 2019 0:12:02 GMT
It should be noted that Sten doesn't confront the warden about being a woman when they first meet and she tells him she's a Grey Warden, even though she is visibly female and he knows wardens are warriors. Instead he confronts her in camp after they've traveled together atleast a little. Which implies that it is seeing her act as and be treated as a woman that caused him to view the warden as a woman and therefore wrong. Not her breasts.
Otherwise why wouldn't he have said something in/at the cage? He sais the same thing to her that he does a male warden. With a different character I might assume they were going along with what they believed to be an obvious lie in order to escape, but Sten is content to stay in the cage and meet his punishment.
I can't know for sure whether or not the qun was retconned behind-the-scenes, but if it was then it has not, so far, broken the world's consistancy. Not for me anyway.
Getting back on topic: I'd like them to write what they want and they think is right for the story, but when your being paid to create/design something, what the person/people who you are designing for want becomes a part of the design parameters. EA is paying them to make a certain product with expectations on what that product will be, include and that it will sell to an audience. Therefore, to a certain point, what that audience wants and expects does matter. As making something they (gamers) will pay for is a design parameter. So paying no attention at all to what fans want makes as little sense as paying no attention to what people who aren't fans yet, but you want to draw in, want.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 30, 2019 2:26:21 GMT
This whole argument is futile. First of all, nobody elected Sten to be the one true expert of all things Qun. Why should his statements be treated as the only true interpretation of doctrine? Particularly since he was portrayed as kind of a moron. Even our own real world experts can’t agree on issues of doctrine. Second, and more importantly, Bioware in general and Patrick Weekes + David Gaider in particular, have gone out of their way to convince us that nothing in lore is sacred. Thedas history is a pack of lies. Every narrator is unreliable. You’re a naive fool for taking anything revealed in lore, including eye witness testimony or things you see with your own eyes, as unalloyed and everlasting truth. The whole setting is rigged for retconning, and they make that out to be some kind of edgy, postmodern virtue. “Don’t believe everything you hear,” is transformed into, “Don’t believe anything you hear.” Case in point: the whole Jaws of Hakkon story. The Chantry perpetrated a giant cover-up because Ameridan was a Dales elf. Solas would laugh at y’all. by 'they' are you talking about the writers? Bioware in general, PW + DG in particular. Probably Mike Laidlaw too.
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Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 30, 2019 2:34:55 GMT
But don't expect people to be all blind sheeps before things they see, read, and witness, from games to games, m'okay ? So let me get this straight. You know going in that the setting is rigged for retconning. You acknowledge that writers can and will retcon anything. You or I or any number of close readers of the text could fill pages with retcons that have already been perpetrated in DA. Nevermind the undermining of trust in anything, since, as I pointed out, if the Chantry can cover up something as trivial as an Inquisitor being a Dales elf, wtf else that's much more serious have they covered up? Maybe Andraste was an apostate, possessed by a Compassion spirit? Who knows, since absolutely anything goes? Despite all that, you still choose to complain about retcons in DA games? Seems like the textbook definition of futility to me.
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