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Post by garrusfan1 on Aug 18, 2019 23:06:03 GMT
So Fernando Melo and Ben Irving have left bioware in two days and both were lead producers on DA4 though I am not sure how you have two "lead" producers at the same time. So does this mean something or just coincendence. I personally am leaning towards it being coincedences. What about everyone else.
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Post by river82 on Aug 18, 2019 23:10:47 GMT
Ben Irving was lead producer on Anthem, not DA4. I'm not worried. I have said I've been worried that Bioware has lost so many senior people that drove where the company and a series headed (the doctors, Flynn, Laidlaw, Gaider, Hudson, Karypshyn) but a producer isn't really one of those. So I wish them the best in all their future pursuits and will leave it at that Anyway, part of what a producer does is make sure things get made in a timely fashion, and you know what? Looking at Anthem I don't blame them for chucking things in ahaha ... just a little joke
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2019 23:15:28 GMT
So Fernando Melo and Ben Irving have left bioware in two days and both were lead producers on DA4 though I am not sure how you have two "lead" producers at the same time. So does this mean something or just coincendence. I personally am leaning towards it being coincedences. What about everyone else. I love how desperately this post smells of “everything’s fine, right?” ”I’m not concerned, I just created this thread so we can all confirm how no one is concerned”
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Post by biggydx on Aug 18, 2019 23:15:55 GMT
It's always hard to say with this stuff. Is it a cause for concern? Maybe. Departures during Andromeda's development certainly didn't end well. I personally don't think it's the departures that should be the definitive answer as to whether people should be concerned about DA4. It's the quality of BioWare's previous games that should dictate such an opinion, and based on Andromeda's and Anthem's performance, I'd say people are right to be skeptical of the final product that DA4 becomes; even more so with promises of "live-service elements".
(Also, while I know we have some here who enjoyed Andromeda, and some who currently enjoy Anthem, these games have been criticized heavily by much of the gaming community for a reason. This isn't me picking a bone with you. Just recognizing that the quality of these games don't live up to BioWare's earlier titles).
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Post by themikefest on Aug 18, 2019 23:20:44 GMT
I'm not worried.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Aug 18, 2019 23:30:27 GMT
It's always hard to say with this stuff. Is it a cause for concern? Maybe. Departures during Andromeda's development certainly didn't end well. I personally don't think it's the departures that should be the definitive answer as to whether people should be concerned about DA4. It's BioWare's previous games that should mostly dictate such an opinion, and based on Andromeda's and Anthem's performance, I'd say people are right to be skeptical of the final product that DA4 becomes; even more so with promises of "live-service elements". (Also, while I know we have some here who enjoyed Andromeda, and currently enjoy Anthem, these games have been criticized heavily by much of the gaming community for a reason. This isn't me picking a bone with you. Just recognizing that the quality of these games don't live up to BioWare's earlier titles). Have they actually said it would be live service. And does that mean just MP like in ME3 or live service like MMO style.
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Post by river82 on Aug 18, 2019 23:32:20 GMT
Let's keep things in perspective here. A producer keeps things on time and under budget (they obviously have other responsibilities, liaison, negotiations etc but not development related). Two "on time and under budget" guys just left. The sky isn't falling
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Post by biggydx on Aug 19, 2019 0:02:30 GMT
It's always hard to say with this stuff. Is it a cause for concern? Maybe. Departures during Andromeda's development certainly didn't end well. I personally don't think it's the departures that should be the definitive answer as to whether people should be concerned about DA4. It's BioWare's previous games that should mostly dictate such an opinion, and based on Andromeda's and Anthem's performance, I'd say people are right to be skeptical of the final product that DA4 becomes; even more so with promises of "live-service elements". (Also, while I know we have some here who enjoyed Andromeda, and currently enjoy Anthem, these games have been criticized heavily by much of the gaming community for a reason. This isn't me picking a bone with you. Just recognizing that the quality of these games don't live up to BioWare's earlier titles). Have they actually said it would be live service. And does that mean just MP like in ME3 or live service like MMO style. Mike Gamble made a comment on Twitter about the studio adding "live-service elements" to the game. To what degree, we won't know for sure. It could be live service elements like AC:Odyssey, where you have daily/weekly updates and challenges, small-sized story missions, gameplay additions, and a microtransactions store with rotating items. On the other hand, it could be akin to an online-only game, or one that focuses more on multiplayer elements to encourage player retention for micro spending.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 19, 2019 1:23:27 GMT
It means people leave jobs. The real surprise is that they stuck with one developer for so long in the first place. Turnover is extremely common in the game industry.
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Post by river82 on Aug 19, 2019 2:00:04 GMT
It means people leave jobs. The real surprise is that they stuck with one developer for so long in the first place. Turnover is extremely common in the game industry. Turnover is extremely common for lower level jobs in the game industry, but mass turnover at the senior level is not very common. Bioware has had 3 people in charge of the direction of the company itself (the two doctors and Flynn), the creative director of Mass Effect and the person who oversaw the initial stages of Anthem (Hudson, who later returned) the creative director of Dragon Age (Laidlaw), the lead writer of Dragon Age (Gaider), the former lead writer of Mass Effect (Karypshyn leaving again), and two lead producers leave in the past 6 years. I'm not worried about the two producers leaving, but these are an awful lot of senior people in charge of direction leaving at the same time. Not common at all. EDIT: Oh, and the creative director of The Old Republic left last year as well ...
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Post by apollexander on Aug 19, 2019 2:27:02 GMT
First, Ben Irving is not on DA4. Second, if you look at the credit lists of MEA and Anthem, you can find 3 lead producers for each. Third, if you have kept an eye on Bioware, you could find that producers left and new ones were hired in (maybe) every year. Fourth, there was a big title losing its executive producer about half a year before its launch, and it became one of the most successful games in Bioware history. That was DAO. Mark Darrah took the title of EP since then.
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Post by river82 on Aug 19, 2019 2:37:57 GMT
Fourth, there was a big title losing its executive producer about half a year before its launch, and it became one of the most successful games in Bioware history. That was DAO. Mark Darrah took the title of EP since then. Dragon Age Origins was one of the most successful games in Bioware's history? BRING BACK KNOWLES :3
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Post by Sartoz on Aug 19, 2019 2:59:38 GMT
Let's keep things in perspective here. A producer keeps things on time and under budget (they obviously have other responsibilities, liaison, negotiations etc but not development related). Two "on time and under budget" guys just left. The sky isn't falling You forgot to add "but not well received games".
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 19, 2019 3:18:12 GMT
It means people leave jobs. The real surprise is that they stuck with one developer for so long in the first place. Turnover is extremely common in the game industry. Turnover is extremely common for lower level jobs in the game industry, but mass turnover at the senior level is not very common. Bioware has had 3 people in charge of the direction of the company itself (the two doctors and Flynn), the creative director of Mass Effect and the person who oversaw the initial stages of Anthem (Hudson, who later returned) the creative director of Dragon Age (Laidlaw), the lead writer of Dragon Age (Gaider), the former lead writer of Mass Effect (Karypshyn leaving again), and two lead producers leave in the past 6 years. I'm not worried about the two producers leaving, but these are an awful lot of senior people in charge of direction leaving at the same time. Not common at all. EDIT: Oh, and the creative director of The Old Republic left last year as well ... I think this specific scenario is a lot more common than you think. Unless you can pull up statistics from across the entire industry and not just BioWare, we're essentially in the dark. It might be unusual for several senior people to leave a company over the space of a few years. I would argue it is also unusual for so many people stick with a company for so long, and I mean any company, not just game studios. And that's not even getting into the myriad of reasons a person might leave. Every time this happens, the mass hysteria is predicated on the premise that Senior Dev X loved working on Dragon Age and now suddenly hates it for some reason as yet undisclosed. Here's a thought: what if they never loved it? What if they were just settling for a job in their chosen industry while waiting for an opportunity, or amassing the funds to pursue their passion project. WHAT IF, for them, working at BioWare was always just... a job? Dun dun duuuun.
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Post by river82 on Aug 19, 2019 3:25:23 GMT
WHAT IF, for them, working at BioWare was always just... a job? Dun dun duuuun. Usually when you rise to a senior position in a company and are responsible for the direction of one of their 3 franchises, you demonstrate a level of commitment that goes beyond "just a job". Even Gaider said somewhere that he was unconsciously pushing that culture that rewards people for working more and longer on a project. So when you have the majority of those people who showed unusual commitment to their employer leave within a few years of each other, that's an unusual circumstance. Normally if your attitude is "it's just a job" your employer doesn't promote you to creative director
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 19, 2019 3:38:25 GMT
WHAT IF, for them, working at BioWare was always just... a job? Dun dun duuuun. Usually when you rise to a senior position in a company and are responsible for the direction of one of their 3 franchises, you demonstrate a level of commitment that goes beyond "just a job". Even Gaider said somewhere that he was unconsciously pushing that culture that rewards people for working more and longer on a project. So when you have the majority of those people who showed unusual commitment to their employer leave within a few years of each other, that's an unusual circumstance. Normally if your attitude is "it's just a job" your employer doesn't promote you to creative director I'd love to know what credentials you possess in order to make sweeping statements about what people "usually do". I don't think this refutes anything I said, namely that Melo and others may simply have dreams beyond pushing out BioWare games until they die, and have finally got an opportunity to make those dreams reality. I know that if I were to make a game, Dragon Age wouldn't be it. And I doubt that the senior employees of BioWare are a hivemind with no singular creative visions of their own.
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Post by river82 on Aug 19, 2019 3:47:54 GMT
Usually when you rise to a senior position in a company and are responsible for the direction of one of their 3 franchises, you demonstrate a level of commitment that goes beyond "just a job". Even Gaider said somewhere that he was unconsciously pushing that culture that rewards people for working more and longer on a project. So when you have the majority of those people who showed unusual commitment to their employer leave within a few years of each other, that's an unusual circumstance. Normally if your attitude is "it's just a job" your employer doesn't promote you to creative director I'd love to know what credentials you possess in order to make sweeping statements about what people "usually do". I don't think this refutes anything I said, namely that Melo and others may simply have dreams beyond pushing out BioWare games until they die, and have finally got an opportunity to make those dreams reality. I know that if I were to make a game, Dragon Age wouldn't be it. And I doubt that the senior employees of BioWare are a hivemind with no singular creative visions of their own. Let's play the qualification game then. Present your credentials that allows you to make sweeping statements like "the real surprise is they stuck with one developer so long" "turnover is extremely common in the game industry" and that "it's unusual for one person to stick with a company for so long". We can do this all day to nullify basically everything we both say, and I'm perfectly happy to engage with you in that tactic. You may not want to work on Dragon Age your whole life, that also demonstrates that you would never have been promoted to a position of immense responsibility within the Dragon Age franchise. And you are correct, Bioware employees aren't a hivemind, which makes it strange that all those senior positions, promoted for their dedication, vacated within a short time of each other. All creative developers, 2 rounds of GMs, gone. They are all individuals with their own life goals and career paths, but after showing dedication to Bioware for so many years all of them left. Interesting.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 19, 2019 3:50:15 GMT
I'd love to know what credentials you possess in order to make sweeping statements about what people "usually do". I don't think this refutes anything I said, namely that Melo and others may simply have dreams beyond pushing out BioWare games until they die, and have finally got an opportunity to make those dreams reality. I know that if I were to make a game, Dragon Age wouldn't be it. And I doubt that the senior employees of BioWare are a hivemind with no singular creative visions of their own. Let's play the qualification game then. Present your credentials that allows you to make sweeping statements like "the real surprise is they stuck with one developer so long" "turnover is extremely common in the game industry" and that "it's unusual for one person to stick with a company for so long". We can do this all day to nullify basically everything we both say, and I'm perfectly happy to engage with you in that tactic. You may not want to work on Dragon Age your whole life, that also demonstrates that you would never have been promoted to a position of immense responsibility within the Dragon Age franchise. And you are correct, Bioware employees aren't a hivemind, which makes it strange that all those senior positions, promoted for their dedication, vacated within a short time of each other. All creative developers, 2 rounds of GMs, gone. They are all individuals with their own life goals and career paths, but after showing dedication to Bioware for so many years all of them left. Interesting. So because Melo worked his way up to senior producer, he must not have had any ambitions outside of making more Dragon Age? If I become a partner at a property law firm, does that mean my one great passion is property law?
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Post by river82 on Aug 19, 2019 3:56:35 GMT
Let's play the qualification game then. Present your credentials that allows you to make sweeping statements like "the real surprise is they stuck with one developer so long" "turnover is extremely common in the game industry" and that "it's unusual for one person to stick with a company for so long". We can do this all day to nullify basically everything we both say, and I'm perfectly happy to engage with you in that tactic. You may not want to work on Dragon Age your whole life, that also demonstrates that you would never have been promoted to a position of immense responsibility within the Dragon Age franchise. And you are correct, Bioware employees aren't a hivemind, which makes it strange that all those senior positions, promoted for their dedication, vacated within a short time of each other. All creative developers, 2 rounds of GMs, gone. They are all individuals with their own life goals and career paths, but after showing dedication to Bioware for so many years all of them left. Interesting. So because Melo worked his way up to senior producer, he must not have had any ambitions outside of making more Dragon Age? If I become a partner at a property law firm, does that mean my one great passion is property law? I'm not talking about the senior producer. Melo doesn't interest me (sorry Melo). Producers aren't really involved in the development process, they're more managerial. I never said you didn't have passions outside of work. What I said was it's unusual for all of the people responsible for the direction of the company, and all of the franchises, to suddenly decide to follow their passions so close to one another after previously demonstrating unusual commitment to the company. And Laidlaw went to work on similar games at Ubisoft.
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Post by cankiie on Aug 19, 2019 4:29:16 GMT
Melo leaving bioware means little. I believe he did so on his own term. He did lie in his leaving letter though, something about the current developers on DA4 being some of the best developers... I think I heard that somewhere else... in a recently released game from Bioware that did not go down too well I am worried about anything coming out of EA at this point. Time restraints, fiscal years, moral-destroying crunches, live-service focus... the live-service focus is the biggest problem. There is a reason we had much better games releasing in the early late 19s and earlier 2000s... the difference in the industry is the live-service focus. DA4 will be live-service and that'll make it bad automatically.
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Post by doggiesnores on Aug 19, 2019 4:45:04 GMT
I am not worried! He helps get the team through early production, and he chose to leave when he could and not shake the ground. Color me positive. Also, not sure if anyone watches Jackdaw on YouTube, but he made a video addressing this. He’s pretty darn good at keeping up with details and news. I recommend him.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 19, 2019 5:09:09 GMT
So am I that worried about this news?
Not really. I am sure if DA 4 goes to crap there will be a brave expose written by some random gaming journalist on Kotaku detailing all the horrible things BioWare does to their brave eecutive producers...ahem.
I think I got a little carried away there.
Honestly though as I have said we just don't have enough data at this point to suggest one way or another. This COULD effect them, anytime someone leaves in leadership someone else might come in and decide to go do something ese which could lead to a disjointed project...or wasted time as they retool. But we have nothing yet on gameplay, or marketing, or the tile, there is literally nothing out there to judge. And I know that people, in the absence of any other news, love to overhype negative news...we're just going to have to wait and see.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
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Post by correctamundo on Aug 19, 2019 8:56:06 GMT
It means people leave jobs. The real surprise is that they stuck with one developer for so long in the first place. Turnover is extremely common in the game industry. Turnover is extremely common for lower level jobs in the game industry, but mass turnover at the senior level is not very common. Bioware has had 3 people in charge of the direction of the company itself (the two doctors and Flynn), the creative director of Mass Effect and the person who oversaw the initial stages of Anthem (Hudson, who later returned) the creative director of Dragon Age (Laidlaw), the lead writer of Dragon Age (Gaider), the former lead writer of Mass Effect (Karypshyn leaving again), and two lead producers leave in the past 6 years. I'm not worried about the two producers leaving, but these are an awful lot of senior people in charge of direction leaving at the same time.
Not common at all. EDIT: Oh, and the creative director of The Old Republic left last year as well ... A timespan of six years = "at the same time".
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Post by mmoblitz on Aug 19, 2019 9:52:43 GMT
The days of Bioware putting out great SP story driven games is a thing of the past. So am I worried that some senior people at Bioware are jumping ship? Nope. Just wondering what took them so long.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 19, 2019 10:04:38 GMT
The days of Bioware putting out great SP story driven games is a thing of the past. So am I worried that some senior people at Bioware are jumping ship? Nope. Just wondering what took them so long. Probably cause that had nothing to do with it. BioWare may be "known for" their single player stories, but several, if not all of their games prior to Dragon Age had multiplayer functionality. Honestly, it's weird how everybody posting in here just assumes that "all these men leaving BioWare wanted to make a game that I specifically would have liked, and EA is forcing them to do something else, those monsters!" Like, chill. None of these men ever knew you existed.
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