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Post by mybudgee on Dec 10, 2016 4:15:51 GMT
One of the worst things about Star Wars: TFA is Rey being ridiculously good at everything. Luke and Anakin took years of training to hone their abilities and they had pitfalls (Luke lost is fucking arm too, BTW) whereas she just does everything perfectly with no training at all. From combat, to engineering, to piloting, to using the force.
Kylo Ren wiped out Luke's Jedi academy and he's been been taught by the incredibly powerful sith for years, and she more than matches him with, again, no training whatsoever.
Hell she even teaches Han how to fix the Millennium Falcon. Yea, no. On topic: I'd definitely say Clarice Starling from Silence of the Lambs. She's up there in my list of top movie characters.
Really the amount of people who complain about Rey... none of them think that there might be a reason for it  For example, she could have been part of Luke Skywalkers new generation of Jedi like Kylo Ren, and just had her memories taken away so she could live a normal life away from the First Order after Kylo Ren destroyed Lukes attempt to rebuild the Jedi Would explain why she learned things so quickly, when she would have already gone through some Jedi training, and would also explain why Kylo reacted so negatively towards knowing that a girl was involved
Either way... is she powerful??? Yes... well, potentially. Is she perfect??? Nope
I kinda think that its hard to get a balance right... when it comes to female protagonists no matter what I guess there will be someone complaining about it... which sucks but eh... personally im just happy with a realistic character... doesnt matter how many people they can kill or how many people they cant, what matters is how well the character is developed
Finally a voice of reason! The idiocy surrounding episode 7 has been SO annoying |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2016 9:00:06 GMT
Really the amount of people who complain about Rey... none of them think that there might be a reason for it For example, she could have been part of Luke Skywalkers new generation of Jedi like Kylo Ren, and just had her memories taken away so she could live a normal life away from the First Order after Kylo Ren destroyed Lukes attempt to rebuild the Jedi Would explain why she learned things so quickly, when she would have already gone through some Jedi training, and would also explain why Kylo reacted so negatively towards knowing that a girl was involved
Either way... is she powerful??? Yes... well, potentially. Is she perfect??? Nope
I kinda think that its hard to get a balance right... when it comes to female protagonists no matter what I guess there will be someone complaining about it... which sucks but eh... personally im just happy with a realistic character... doesnt matter how many people they can kill or how many people they cant, what matters is how well the character is developed
An explanation after the fact is much less satisfying than a well written story. The problem with TFA is more than just this character or that, it's more that the plot of TFA is largely an inferior reboot of "A New Hope". Considering how much potentially good material was just open and ready for the writers of this movie in the SW extended universe, going with an inferior reboot instead of making something even remotely original is simply an inexcusable cash-grab. And it's not like they didn't look at the extended universe, but instead of crafting something worthwhile out of what they found, what we got is Kylo Ren the emo Sith teenager, who is an inferior shadow of Jacen Solo. Did TFA had some cool moments in it? Sure. But especially for longtime fans of SW, that waited in some cases decades for a worthy continuation to the story, this is simply a disappointment. The fact that Rey was portrayed as the classical Sue, is disappointing as well, but considering the rest is somewhat of a minor issue. (still, that ridiculous scene of Finn insisting to run and hold hands with her for no logical reason, just so she can pull her hand away with a look of disgust on her face, because after all she is a strong woman who needs no man to hold her hand. Hurray Feminism! So very subtle.) So is it possible that someone wiped her memories? I guess there's a precedent with Darth Revan. But even he needed weeks or months of training before his body started to "remember" how to use the Force. With Rey, she just frowns and everything clicks for her, more or less. But hey, it's Disney, what can you expect? You cant criticize the first Avengers movie for not telling you plot details for the second one Reys history is currently an enigma, something to get people talking and making theories... same with Kylo Ren and Snoke, theyre there to keep the fan base alive basically... judging TFA as a standalone movie is only partly possible, because its part of a series you cant really criticize it for the things that will come later and are likely to be important plot points in future movies  Also something: heroes have a tendency to be weaker than the villains, or tend to scale with them... the stronger the hero, the stronger the villain needs to be to pose a threat... in future movies you might have Luke, Rey and Finn (who is likely to be a force user or a force sensitive) fighting together... maybe Kylo Ren too since he seems very conflicted, although I personally think hes gonna go more towards the dark side after TFA but who knows So Snoke and the Knights of Ren etc theyre gonna be pretty powerful themselves, probably dwarfing the combined power of the heroes, and then you wont be complaining that theyre too powerful the villains in TFA outside of Kylo Ren who was injured at the time, probably emotionally affected by what has happened before and had to deal with 2 lightsaber wielding people (at different times but still) never really got a chance to show themselves, and Kylo Ren didnt get the chance during her lightsaber duel... you never really saw them at full strength, so ofc Rey was gonna seem powerful in TFA As for the holding hands scene... genuine question: is it TFA going "hehehehe evil feminist hint" or is it Rey simply knowing where shes going better than Finn??? I mean personally, if I lived somewhere for most of my life, id know where to go better than someone who had never been there before, and if I was being attacked by TIE fighters, id know how to evade them better than them... and they would likely pull me in the wrong direction and get us both killed, so I wouldnt want them holding hands with me either not everything with a female character in is about feminism... you know that right???  As for her being good at everything, if you actually break it down, she knows how to fly a ship based on working on it obviously for quite a while, shes ok at fighting (not the best by a long way), shes a good climber... those arent unusual things at all, everything else is down to the Force, and ive already said why she could be so powerful, it isnt a big deal Yes, Revan showed that erasing memories is possible, and yes it happened in a longer time, but are you forgetting that Kylo Ren used his dark side mind probe on her??? Her Force powers started to really manifest after that, so that will have awakened her training/whatever... because directly gaining access to someones mind is more likely to bring about things faster than gradual training is, surely??? Also Disney is amazing, im expecting great things |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2016 9:07:13 GMT
Speaking of Disney princesses living in the Star Wars universe...
Although technically Elsa is a queen, and Anna is the princess 
I can tell im gonna fangirl soon...
Had no idea I needed this in my life until just now. Thanks Gen. Youre welcome! Im just your friendly neighborhood Frozen fangirl  Here have one of Elsa as a Jedi:  I personally prefer the Sith one but thats great too Speaking of Frozen: I think Anna and Elsa are strong female protagonists... Frozen teases you with an ordinary Disney-style romance plot but the truth is its about 2 sisters and the lengths theyll go to to look after each other... and I love it The characters have flaws, whether its Elsas fear of herself and isolation, or Annas optimism and her feisty streak which gets her into trouble with Marshmallow, I find them to be very well portrayed characters, and Frozen wouldnt be as beautiful as it is without them |
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 10, 2016 9:39:50 GMT
I will never forgive my niece for subjecting me to Frozen.
I will strike her from my will for it, if I ever get around to it. She will get nothing but my scorn and unadulterated fury. And a box of truffles.(I ate the truffles though)
It's gotta be the most cliched feminist tripe I've seen in decades. At the very least 18 years...we all recall what happened in 1998 don't we?
._.
Ugh. Even discussing it reminds me of the horrid musical numbers. Until that day(Or hairspray) I never wished I went deaf in the war before. If I had, I could simply switch off the hearing aide.
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Post by Verro on Dec 10, 2016 11:47:33 GMT
I will never forgive my niece for subjecting me to Frozen.
I will strike her from my will for it, if I ever get around to it. She will get nothing but my scorn and unadulterated fury. And a box of truffles.(I ate the truffles though)
It's gotta be the most cliched feminist tripe I've seen in decades. At the very least 18 years...we all recall what happened in 1998 don't we?
._. Ugh. Even discussing it reminds me of the horrid musical numbers. Until that day(Or hairspray) I never wished I went deaf in the war before. If I had, I could simply switch off the hearing aide. You should just  |
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 10, 2016 11:49:05 GMT
I will never forgive my niece for subjecting me to Frozen.
I will strike her from my will for it, if I ever get around to it. She will get nothing but my scorn and unadulterated fury. And a box of truffles.(I ate the truffles though)
It's gotta be the most cliched feminist tripe I've seen in decades. At the very least 18 years...we all recall what happened in 1998 don't we?
._. Ugh. Even discussing it reminds me of the horrid musical numbers. Until that day(Or hairspray) I never wished I went deaf in the war before. If I had, I could simply switch off the hearing aide. You should just LET IT GO!
LET IT GO!My rage at inconsequential bullshit keeps me alive I think. |
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Post by Verro on Dec 10, 2016 12:10:11 GMT
You should just LET IT GO!
LET IT GO!My rage at inconsequential bullshit keeps me alive I think. *Ignores my joke* Me:  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2016 17:14:34 GMT
I will never forgive my niece for subjecting me to Frozen. I will strike her from my will for it, if I ever get around to it. She will get nothing but my scorn and unadulterated fury. And a box of truffles.(I ate the truffles though) It's gotta be the most cliched feminist tripe I've seen in decades. At the very least 18 years...we all recall what happened in 1998 don't we? ._. Ugh. Even discussing it reminds me of the horrid musical numbers. Until that day(Or hairspray) I never wished I went deaf in the war before. If I had, I could simply switch off the hearing aide.
... I genuinely think we live in 2 entirely different universes
I so wish I could explore your mind (well, maybe not ) and see what has made you think like that 
Frozen is clichéd feminist tripe??? Have you even seen the movie???
There are 2 scenes which could MAYBE if you go fully nuts could somehow translate in the right mind as being feminist, but I think there has been a misunderstanding somewhere
Scene a)
Hans is going to kill Elsa, and Anna sacrifices herself (well, kinda) to save her sisters life, blocking Hans' sword with her hand which turns into ice, instead of going to Kristoff and sharing a true loves kiss to save herself
What it could be interpreted as: I dont need a man! Men suck!
What it actually is: Anna prioritizing her sister over herself/maybe romance with Kristoff (which is a super logical decision actually, since she hasnt known Kristoff for so long and her sister is gonna die if she doesnt do anything... like seriously her sister is gonna DIE... its a no brainer )
Scene 
"The only frozen heart around here is yours" *punch*
What it could be interpreted as: A strong woman showing how physically superior she is to the stupid man by punching him and making him fall off the side of the boat
What it actually is: the villain getting what he deserves, which only happens in like... 99% of movies ever made regardless of the genders of the protagonists
Plus, if you also use like the same crazy logic that would have to be used to even come close to being clichéd feminist tripe, youd come to a completely different crazy conclusion
Quote:
"You dont tell him what to do, I do!" - Kristoff to Anna, when she tries to tell Sven to jump, showing that a man can do whatever he want with his own possessions
Also "For The First Time In Forever" (my favorite Frozen song) is literally just about how desperate Anna is for a man
"Fixer Upper" is a song telling Anna to settle for a less-than-perfect man (although it does get turned around part way through when its said that Anna is already engaged)... not exactly the most pro-woman thing to sing about (although what can you expect from trolls )
Also, Hans tricks Anna, and planned to marry her to gain power, showing that getting married to a woman is only a good thing if you marry into a higher social status... so you know, women are just there so men can get power, its the only logical conclusion ofc
Also, a woman has to ask a man for help to walk up a mountain, he also saves her life during the wolf scene (then she also saves his, so I guess thats equal)... also Kristoff is like the voice of reason through the entire movie, instead of women because women are ofc too emotional to think logically
Hans also (after revealing his plan to Anna), leaves her to die, where she gets saved by Olaf (a snowMAN), showing that women cant look after themselves without male help
And Elsa endangers quite a lot of people in the movie, her sister being one of them, showing that women are emotionally unstable
... believe it or not, a movie can just be... a movie
So yeah, make silly comments and youll get silly comments in return
And while its safe to say Frozen isnt the type of movie youd probably be into (youre probably a tad out of its target audience... although then again so am I since its probably for people younger than 27 but I still love it ) but it isnt a feminist movie... it has female protagonists, but thats literally all and as I said about Star Wars up there "not everything with a female character in is about feminism... you know that right???" And as I also said, Frozen is about the lengths that 2 sisters go to look after each other, its about love between siblings, and it also touches on some pretty mature subjects for a Disney movie, Elsa especially in all of her beautifulness its designed to make people happy, and its a beautiful movie... it only teaches positive things, and is INSANELY quotable
So yeah, Frozen
Its beautiful, and has well portrayed female protagonists
True facts
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2016 17:40:40 GMT
You cant criticize the first Avengers movie for not telling you plot details for the second one Reys history is currently an enigma, something to get people talking and making theories... same with Kylo Ren and Snoke, theyre there to keep the fan base alive basically... judging TFA as a standalone movie is only partly possible, because its part of a series you cant really criticize it for the things that will come later and are likely to be important plot points in future movies Also something: heroes have a tendency to be weaker than the villains, or tend to scale with them... the stronger the hero, the stronger the villain needs to be to pose a threat... in future movies you might have Luke, Rey and Finn (who is likely to be a force user or a force sensitive) fighting together... maybe Kylo Ren too since he seems very conflicted, although I personally think hes gonna go more towards the dark side after TFA but who knows So Snoke and the Knights of Ren etc theyre gonna be pretty powerful themselves, probably dwarfing the combined power of the heroes, and then you wont be complaining that theyre too powerful the villains in TFA outside of Kylo Ren who was injured at the time, probably emotionally affected by what has happened before and had to deal with 2 lightsaber wielding people (at different times but still) never really got a chance to show themselves, and Kylo Ren didnt get the chance during her lightsaber duel... you never really saw them at full strength, so ofc Rey was gonna seem powerful in TFA As for the holding hands scene... genuine question: is it TFA going "hehehehe evil feminist hint" or is it Rey simply knowing where shes going better than Finn??? I mean personally, if I lived somewhere for most of my life, id know where to go better than someone who had never been there before, and if I was being attacked by TIE fighters, id know how to evade them better than them... and they would likely pull me in the wrong direction and get us both killed, so I wouldnt want them holding hands with me either not everything with a female character in is about feminism... you know that right??? As for her being good at everything, if you actually break it down, she knows how to fly a ship based on working on it obviously for quite a while, shes ok at fighting (not the best by a long way), shes a good climber... those arent unusual things at all, everything else is down to the Force, and ive already said why she could be so powerful, it isnt a big deal Yes, Revan showed that erasing memories is possible, and yes it happened in a longer time, but are you forgetting that Kylo Ren used his dark side mind probe on her??? Her Force powers started to really manifest after that, so that will have awakened her training/whatever... because directly gaining access to someones mind is more likely to bring about things faster than gradual training is, surely??? Also Disney is amazing, im expecting great things It's not that I judge a movie for not telling us the story of the sequel, it's more that I judge it for telling something strange that may or may not be explained in a sequel. Also, in a TV show such a thing would be much more acceptable, as every episode is just a small chapter in an overall story, while movies even ones who are part of a trilogy, are supposed to be stories that stand on their own, at least to a degree. My point regarding Revan was that while this idea isn't impossible, even the legendary Revan who is largely considered one of the most powerful Force users of the entire SW universe, needed to be re-trained by actual Jedi for a period of (at least) a few weeks in order to regain some control over the Force. Since you raised the power of Heroes Vs. the power of Villains, Rey is much more powerful than the average Hero too. Show me another hero that managed to beat one of the Villains at the start of the story without training. Luke Skywalker only managed to defeat Darth Vader at the end of the trilogy, after extensive training, while Vader was trapped in a defective life-suit and was emotionally compromised. As for the "holding hands" scene between Finn and Rey: My point is that there was no logical reason for Finn to insist to hold hands with her, precisely for the reasons you mentioned. He doesn't know the area, he has barely any connection to her, holding her hand makes it difficult for them to run effectively, it makes them a bigger target, etc. It seemed more than anything else (to me at least) like an excuse for Rey to make a feminist point, in the least subtle way possible. As for the "good at everything" part, well, she is very impressive in a fight with that staff she carries around, she doesn't seem to have experience with blasters, but manages to hit someone not very close the very first time she actually has to use it, I can understand her being a good mechanic I guess, but she became too good of a pilot too quickly, and of course there's all the things she did with the Force, and actually managing to defeat Darth Emo in a Lightsaber duel - which is possibly the most ludicrous part. And I don't think that being attacked with a mind-probe (which she actually managed to repel very quickly, another point for "good at everything"...) is a sufficient explanation for becoming so good so quickly. But hey, I'm aware that enjoying a movie has very little to do with writing quality, hell I enjoyed very much some terrible movies myself, so in any case I'm not trying to ruin your enjoyment...
It will be explained in the sequels its too big of a plot point not to, TFA does a very good job of setting up questions about things, and they will address them, because thats kinda the point of setting them up??? TFA does stand on its own, in a way. It has its own story to tell, but leaves the plot and other things open for sequels... which is kinda the point
Rey was on Jakku for a long time, it isnt as if happened overnight... yeaarrsss would have passed since her memory would have been wiped, added to TFA where the Force is mentioned quite a lot, being subjected to the Force by Kylo Ren before her capture, the vision the lightsaber caused which could have had some effect (and obviously did, since she saw/heard quite a few things, some of which happened in the past, I personally think), Kylos mind probe and other things... it isnt exactly impossible that all of that would have caused her training to come back to her.. you know???
Eh its kinda pointless anyway since most of thats theory and guesses... we'll just have to wait for the other movies!
She defeated someone who wasnt the main bad guy, who was injured at the time... not a big deal well it is kinda a big deal for the story, but facing someone like Darth Vader would be much more of a task, like much more, Kylo is afraid he wont be as strong as Darth Vader... he wouldnt feel that way if he was stronger... the movie even says hes weaker than Darth Vader is
It was Finn wanting to protect Rey, but youre right it made no sense, and Rey basically said that it didnt make sense??? Thats why she was opposed to it, because it made no sense... Finn did something which made no sense, Rey called him out on it, and youre complaining because it doesnt make sense so you think it was for another reason even though you and Rey literally have the same point about it not making sense?? I am VERY confused right now
She is ok with the staff, she isnt like a pro or anything
Haha its one of my favorite movies
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2016 18:06:00 GMT
I like these pictures, whoever the artist is, they managed to capture the spirit of a Sith and a Jedi respectively in those pictures, and yet keep the original personality of the Character, very good.
I know! Theyre great
I think the Sith one is better though, it reminds me of the scene where Elsa is in her palace fighting the guards and the ice changes color to be less pretty and more dark and it gets all spiky and stuff
Also a female character id describe as strong:
Theres a woman in some books I used to read called Tanith Low, she is 95 years old (although looks in her early 20s... and acts about 4, the first because of magic, the second because of immaturity)... she has the power to run up/on walls (think its called wallwalking but dont quote me on that), she can unlock locks if she touches them and she can also strengthen doors and make them harder to break... those are like her 3 powers I think shes great Quotes from her: "Did you know, and this is a fact here, did you know that most spiders are ugly? It's true. The woman spiders have it really hard time of it. I saw it on a documentary. Why do you think the Black Widow kills the guy she mates with? Shame, that's why" "Excuse me, I believe you're standing on my sword. I don't think this is entirely fair, you're angry with Skulduggery because he didn't kill Valkyrie, but you and me, we've never even met. I mean, you have no reason to attack me, if you got to know me, if you took the time, I'm sure you'd really like me. I'm a likeable girl, everyone says so" Funny fact: the author wanted to kill her in the first book, to cut a long story short... she fought a basically completely indestructible undead possibly magical soldier wielding a scythe... and she ofc lost... that was where she was gonna die, but the editor didnt like it so the author changed it to let her survive... but she did take a scythe to the back The condition of her survival was that she would go through so much stuff (near death experiences like) in the books after that She has been knocked out a bunch of times and poisoned in the second book In the third, nearly killed... again The fourth, shes kidnapped, and has nails hammered through her arms, legs and collar bones And in the fifth, when shes fallen in love with someone and is gonna go on a date with them... she gets possessed by a murderous dark entity thing and the last time I read the books she was busy worshipping a person who was gonna destroy the world I get the impression the author doesnt like her much, but its kinda funny to see what happens next... I never read the last book but I should do to see what happens to her in that Shes actually a really cool character
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 10, 2016 18:21:47 GMT
I will never forgive my niece for subjecting me to Frozen.
I will strike her from my will for it, if I ever get around to it. She will get nothing but my scorn and unadulterated fury. And a box of truffles.(I ate the truffles though)
It's gotta be the most cliched feminist tripe I've seen in decades. At the very least 18 years...we all recall what happened in 1998 don't we?
._. Ugh. Even discussing it reminds me of the horrid musical numbers. Until that day(Or hairspray) I never wished I went deaf in the war before. If I had, I could simply switch off the hearing aide. You should just  |
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Dec 10, 2016 21:39:25 GMT
Shepard wasn't strong enough? I think that protagonists of this type that you can customize to your liking would be the closest you can come to appeasing everyone. Yup, this is what I was going to post. And the more customizable the character is (looks, personality, everything), the more people you'll please. One of the worst things about Star Wars: TFA is Rey being ridiculously good at everything. Luke and Anakin took years of training to hone their abilities and they had pitfalls (Luke lost is fucking arm too, BTW) whereas she just does everything perfectly with no training at all. From combat, to engineering, to piloting, to using the force.
Kylo Ren wiped out Luke's Jedi academy and he's been been taught by the incredibly powerful sith for years, and she more than matches him with, again, no training whatsoever.
Hell she even teaches Han how to fix the Millennium Falcon. Yea, no. About Rey:
I'd say you're only partly right. It's not true she has no training/experience with combat, engineering, and piloting. She does have some experience with all of those things.
While she's very good with a staff, this visibly translates to only being moderately good with a saber and pretty bad with a blaster. It's also worth noting that Ren wasn't trying to kill her, he was trying to fight her into submission/turn her and was injured.
She has a lot of experience with engineering/mechanics, including some knowledge of the Falcon specifically. While I grant it's a bit odd for her to fix it faster than Han, Han isn't used to having some guy install compressors and the like on his ship; Rey is familiar with those things.
And let's not forget that force-sensitives generally make great pilots due to having incredible (prescient, even) reflexes and "reaction time". I don't think her piloting the Falcon was any more out-there than Anakin being a very good pod racer at 9 years old or Luke being able to fly an X-Wing with no training because the design shares many things in common with what he'd piloted before. Not to mention Rey still managed to knock the Falcon into some things.
So I'd say the only thing that she might be a bit too good at is using the force, considering everyone else, even Anakin, took longer to attune their senses and skills.
But with all that in mind, I think people are blowing her "Mary Sue-ness" out of proportion, fairly unsurprisingly. I have no proof of course, but based on the patterns I've seen, I think Rey gets more hate than she deserves partly because she's a female protagonist (and partly because it's Star Wars, a lot to live up to). I think if she was another guy, she'd get less hate and be called a "Mary Sue" less, considering there are plenty of male characters with these traits that just don't end up getting that much criticism in my experience. It's more controversial to have a female lead, which is stupid beyond words, but it's how it is, and controversial characters will get analyzed more deeply.
It will be interesting to see the reaction to Jyn Urso, whom I personally have no opinion on before I see the movie.
An explanation after the fact is much less satisfying than a well written story. The problem with TFA is more than just this character or that, it's more that the plot of TFA is largely an inferior reboot of "A New Hope". Considering how much potentially good material was just open and ready for the writers of this movie in the SW extended universe, going with an inferior reboot instead of making something even remotely original is simply an inexcusable cash-grab.Well, they did say they wanted to do something fairly familiar first (it has been over a decade since the prequels and 3 since the originals after all), and mix it up with something original for the next films, so we'll just have to see if they live up to that. Personally, I didn't really mind it being a bit familiar, especially because it was obvious how aware the writers were about that, for instance: "So how do we blow it up? There's always a way to do that." I will never forgive my niece for subjecting me to Frozen.
I will strike her from my will for it, if I ever get around to it. She will get nothing but my scorn and unadulterated fury. And a box of truffles.(I ate the truffles though)
It's gotta be the most cliched feminist tripe I've seen in decades. At the very least 18 years...we all recall what happened in 1998 don't we? You should just  ... I genuinely think we live in 2 entirely different universes I so wish I could explore your mind (well, maybe not ) and see what has made you think like that
Frozen is clichéd feminist tripe??? Have you even seen the movie???
There are 2 scenes which could MAYBE if you go fully nuts could somehow translate in the right mind as being feminist, but I think there has been a misunderstanding somewhere
Scene a)
Hans is going to kill Elsa, and Anna sacrifices herself (well, kinda) to save her sisters life, blocking Hans' sword with her hand which turns into ice, instead of going to Kristoff and sharing a true loves kiss to save herself
What it could be interpreted as: I dont need a man! Men suck!
What it actually is: Anna prioritizing her sister over herself/maybe romance with Kristoff (which is a super logical decision actually, since she hasnt known Kristoff for so long and her sister is gonna die if she doesnt do anything... like seriously her sister is gonna DIE... its a no brainer )
Scene
"The only frozen heart around here is yours" *punch*
What it could be interpreted as: A strong woman showing how physically superior she is to the stupid man by punching him and making him fall off the side of the boat
What it actually is: the villain getting what he deserves, which only happens in like... 99% of movies ever made regardless of the genders of the protagonists
Plus, if you also use like the same crazy logic that would have to be used to even come close to being clichéd feminist tripe, youd come to a completely different crazy conclusion
Quote:
"You dont tell him what to do, I do!" - Kristoff to Anna, when she tries to tell Sven to jump, showing that a man can do whatever he want with his own possessions
Also "For The First Time In Forever" (my favorite Frozen song) is literally just about how desperate Anna is for a man
"Fixer Upper" is a song telling Anna to settle for a less-than-perfect man (although it does get turned around part way through when its said that Anna is already engaged)... not exactly the most pro-woman thing to sing about (although what can you expect from trolls )
Also, Hans tricks Anna, and planned to marry her to gain power, showing that getting married to a woman is only a good thing if you marry into a higher social status... so you know, women are just there so men can get power, its the only logical conclusion ofc
Also, a woman has to ask a man for help to walk up a mountain, he also saves her life during the wolf scene (then she also saves his, so I guess thats equal)... also Kristoff is like the voice of reason through the entire movie, instead of women because women are ofc too emotional to think logically
Hans also (after revealing his plan to Anna), leaves her to die, where she gets saved by Olaf (a snowMAN), showing that women cant look after themselves without male help
And Elsa endangers quite a lot of people in the movie, her sister being one of them, showing that women are emotionally unstable
... believe it or not, a movie can just be... a movie
So yeah, make silly comments and youll get silly comments in return
And while its safe to say Frozen isnt the type of movie youd probably be into (youre probably a tad out of its target audience... although then again so am I since its probably for people younger than 27 but I still love it ) but it isnt a feminist movie... it has female protagonists, but thats literally all and as I said about Star Wars up there "not everything with a female character in is about feminism... you know that right???" And as I also said, Frozen is about the lengths that 2 sisters go to look after each other, its about love between siblings, and it also touches on some pretty mature subjects for a Disney movie, Elsa especially in all of her beautifulness its designed to make people happy, and its a beautiful movie... it only teaches positive things, and is INSANELY quotable
So yeah, Frozen
Its beautiful, and has well portrayed female protagonists
True facts
And that right there is what I was illustrating above: That there are so many interpretations of these things, and a lot of them are overthinking things, while a great deal more are under-thinking them. What do you choose to see? It's good that you can do a thought experiment where you make points for another side, even if you know they're dumb points  Without knowing what the writers were thinking/intending specifically while making these scenes (and the ones in Star Wars and everything else), I feel like we're all underequipped to debate them. Edit: Quoting/spoiler-tag troubles  |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 10, 2016 22:26:29 GMT
Try anything by Valve?
HL2: Alyx Vance (not technically the protagonist, but a solid strong female character everybody loves)
Portal: Chell
L4D: Zoey. Not sure about Rochelle in the sequel, I don't follow that series much.
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Post by Gay Tony on Dec 10, 2016 22:31:55 GMT
Oh God fuck no not Rochelle.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 10, 2016 22:38:01 GMT
Shepard wasn't strong enough? I think that protagonists of this type that you can customize to your liking would be the closest you can come to appeasing everyone. Yup, this is what I was going to post. And the more customizable the character is (looks, personality, everything), the more people you'll please. One of the worst things about Star Wars: TFA is Rey being ridiculously good at everything. Luke and Anakin took years of training to hone their abilities and they had pitfalls (Luke lost is fucking arm too, BTW) whereas she just does everything perfectly with no training at all. From combat, to engineering, to piloting, to using the force.
Kylo Ren wiped out Luke's Jedi academy and he's been been taught by the incredibly powerful sith for years, and she more than matches him with, again, no training whatsoever.
Hell she even teaches Han how to fix the Millennium Falcon. Yea, no. About Rey:
I'd say you're only partly right. It's not true she has no training/experience with combat, engineering, and piloting. She does have some experience with all of those things.
While she's very good with a staff, this visibly translates to only being moderately good with a saber and pretty bad with a blaster. It's also worth noting that Ren wasn't trying to kill her, he was trying to fight her into submission/turn her and was injured.
She has a lot of experience with engineering/mechanics, including some knowledge of the Falcon specifically. While I grant it's a bit odd for her to fix it faster than Han, Han isn't used to having some guy install compressors and the like on his ship; Rey is familiar with those things.
And let's not forget that force-sensitives generally make great pilots due to having incredible (prescient, even) reflexes and "reaction time". I don't think her piloting the Falcon was any more out-there than Anakin being a very good pod racer at 9 years old or Luke being able to fly an X-Wing with no training because the design shares many things in common with what he'd piloted before. Not to mention Rey still managed to knock the Falcon into some things.
So I'd say the only thing that she might be a bit too good at is using the force, considering everyone else, even Anakin, took longer to attune their senses and skills.
But with all that in mind, I think people are blowing her "Mary Sue-ness" out of proportion, fairly unsurprisingly. I have no proof of course, but based on the patterns I've seen, I think Rey gets more hate than she deserves partly because she's a female protagonist (and partly because it's Star Wars, a lot to live up to). I think if she was another guy, she'd get less hate and be called a "Mary Sue" less, considering there are plenty of male characters with these traits that just don't end up getting that much criticism in my experience. It's more controversial to have a female lead, which is stupid beyond words, but it's how it is, and controversial characters will get analyzed more deeply.
It will be interesting to see the reaction to Jin Urso, whom I personally have no opinion on before I see the movie.
An explanation after the fact is much less satisfying than a well written story. The problem with TFA is more than just this character or that, it's more that the plot of TFA is largely an inferior reboot of "A New Hope". Considering how much potentially good material was just open and ready for the writers of this movie in the SW extended universe, going with an inferior reboot instead of making something even remotely original is simply an inexcusable cash-grab.Well, they did say they wanted to do something fairly familiar first (it has been over a decade since the prequels and 3 since the originals after all), and mix it up with something original for the next films, so we'll just have to see if they live up to that. Personally, I didn't really mind it being a bit familiar, especially because it was obvious how aware the writers were about that, for instance: "So how do we blow it up? There's always a way to do that." You should just ... I genuinely think we live in 2 entirely different universes I so wish I could explore your mind (well, maybe not ) and see what has made you think like that
Frozen is clichéd feminist tripe??? Have you even seen the movie???
There are 2 scenes which could MAYBE if you go fully nuts could somehow translate in the right mind as being feminist, but I think there has been a misunderstanding somewhere
Scene a)
Hans is going to kill Elsa, and Anna sacrifices herself (well, kinda) to save her sisters life, blocking Hans' sword with her hand which turns into ice, instead of going to Kristoff and sharing a true loves kiss to save herself
What it could be interpreted as: I dont need a man! Men suck!
What it actually is: Anna prioritizing her sister over herself/maybe romance with Kristoff (which is a super logical decision actually, since she hasnt known Kristoff for so long and her sister is gonna die if she doesnt do anything... like seriously her sister is gonna DIE... its a no brainer )
Scene
"The only frozen heart around here is yours" *punch*
What it could be interpreted as: A strong woman showing how physically superior she is to the stupid man by punching him and making him fall off the side of the boat
What it actually is: the villain getting what he deserves, which only happens in like... 99% of movies ever made regardless of the genders of the protagonists
Plus, if you also use like the same crazy logic that would have to be used to even come close to being clichéd feminist tripe, youd come to a completely different crazy conclusion
Quote:
"You dont tell him what to do, I do!" - Kristoff to Anna, when she tries to tell Sven to jump, showing that a man can do whatever he want with his own possessions
Also "For The First Time In Forever" (my favorite Frozen song) is literally just about how desperate Anna is for a man
"Fixer Upper" is a song telling Anna to settle for a less-than-perfect man (although it does get turned around part way through when its said that Anna is already engaged)... not exactly the most pro-woman thing to sing about (although what can you expect from trolls )
Also, Hans tricks Anna, and planned to marry her to gain power, showing that getting married to a woman is only a good thing if you marry into a higher social status... so you know, women are just there so men can get power, its the only logical conclusion ofc
Also, a woman has to ask a man for help to walk up a mountain, he also saves her life during the wolf scene (then she also saves his, so I guess thats equal)... also Kristoff is like the voice of reason through the entire movie, instead of women because women are ofc too emotional to think logically
Hans also (after revealing his plan to Anna), leaves her to die, where she gets saved by Olaf (a snowMAN), showing that women cant look after themselves without male help
And Elsa endangers quite a lot of people in the movie, her sister being one of them, showing that women are emotionally unstable
... believe it or not, a movie can just be... a movie
So yeah, make silly comments and youll get silly comments in return
And while its safe to say Frozen isnt the type of movie youd probably be into (youre probably a tad out of its target audience... although then again so am I since its probably for people younger than 27 but I still love it ) but it isnt a feminist movie... it has female protagonists, but thats literally all and as I said about Star Wars up there "not everything with a female character in is about feminism... you know that right???" And as I also said, Frozen is about the lengths that 2 sisters go to look after each other, its about love between siblings, and it also touches on some pretty mature subjects for a Disney movie, Elsa especially in all of her beautifulness its designed to make people happy, and its a beautiful movie... it only teaches positive things, and is INSANELY quotable
So yeah, Frozen
Its beautiful, and has well portrayed female protagonists
True facts
And that right there is what I was illustrating above: That there are so many interpretations of these things, and a lot of them are overthinking things, while a great deal more are under-thinking them. What do you choose to see? It's good that you can do a thought experiment where you make points for another side, even if you know they're dumb points Without knowing what the writers were thinking/intending specifically while making these scenes (and the ones in Star Wars and everything else), I feel like we're all underequipped to debate them. Edit: Quoting/spoiler-tag troubles Nonsense. That's what that is, absolute nonsense. I don't need anyone else to tell what my eyes make out. I certainly don't lack common sense or so stupid I can't comprehend basic narrative structuring. No, I don't need a magic dev note to tell me how to view their work. Just as I don't need another person agreeing with me to hold my own opinion. Even if they confirmed my own views I'd say the same. So no, I'm not under equipped to debate a movie I saw, though strongly wish I hadn't. I have every prerequisite to do so. I saw it. I recall it. And I have the vocabulary to describe it, its message and it's cast. If you find yourself inferior to the task, that onus is on you. |
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 10, 2016 23:16:25 GMT
My rage at inconsequential bullshit keeps me alive I think. *Ignores my joke* Me: I did indeed. The humor was topical though so good on you I suppose. |
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Post by Nightman on Dec 10, 2016 23:55:02 GMT
Lead female characters have come quite awayz from how they were 10 years ago...before that, all they were was damsels in distress or just eye candy... I am really excited to see where they go from now on. Thank god, cuz I have 2 nieces who have just started playing games and there are so many strong,kickass female lead characters I can introduce them to. Ellie from The Last of Us, the re-imagined version of Lara Croft, Xian Mei from Dead Island ( <---one of my favorites), Jill Valentine..I mean, there is such a long list I could keep going...but I know you see where I am going with this.
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Post by Larry-3 on Dec 10, 2016 23:55:15 GMT
About the original question of this thread, is it even possible to simultaneously receive everyone's approval? I am not above loving a strong female protagonist. But I wonder how one could create a "one size fits all" character. One could give her a wide range of customization options, and multiple dialog choices that are very different; but keep in mind that Mass Effect already allows one to do that. What else could one do?
As for Rey. She did seem very "Mary Sue" like. But not... as bad as everyone claims. For example, when she fought Kylo Ren, he had been shot by a Bowcaster. In fact, the same one that sent a Stormtrooper flying earlier in the episode. He was also losing blood. Not a paper-cut, mind you. This guy was dripping blood all over the snow. And Rey already seemed proficient in handling staffs; a lightsaber would not be too far a strech. I am certain Kylo was at a disadvantage during the fight.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 11, 2016 0:16:49 GMT
I will never forgive my niece for subjecting me to Frozen. I will strike her from my will for it, if I ever get around to it. She will get nothing but my scorn and unadulterated fury. And a box of truffles.(I ate the truffles though) It's gotta be the most cliched feminist tripe I've seen in decades. At the very least 18 years...we all recall what happened in 1998 don't we? ._. Ugh. Even discussing it reminds me of the horrid musical numbers. Until that day(Or hairspray) I never wished I went deaf in the war before. If I had, I could simply switch off the hearing aide. True facts
 You really think so? Ultimately I lack the inclination nor motivation to engage over this movie, but suffice to say its narrative instantly turned me sour to it, I don't like the original source material, why would I like the watered down run off? Also the one dimensional characters, last minute villain revelations, comic conclusion all in all just remind me of what Disney has been pumping out for decades, abet in more interesting formats. Though you did stumble on one point of contention, not every female lead provides feminist narrative, no but when the hacky writer and director of the flick is themselves a feminist, I really need no other explanation for the plot of the movie. The one writing it is responsible for it. I suggest folks just read the god awful story by Hans Andersen for a less modern politically motivated narrative, its still cliched bullshit, but at the least its time period specific cliched bullshit and lacks the modern infection of Progressivism in it. |
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Post by Verro on Dec 11, 2016 1:15:49 GMT
*Ignores my joke* Me: I did indeed. The humor was topical though so good on you I suppose.I'll accept this. *Walks away mumbling something about tsunderes* |
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Post by AGECCR on Dec 11, 2016 1:24:06 GMT
I think the key in making a strong female protagonist is to not go into it thinking, " I'm going to make a strong female protagonist." Instead, just write a good character. Gender absolutely shouldn't be a focal point. I'm not saying that you shouldn't imagine a character as a certain gender, but if that is your sole motivation I believe you've already failed. Plus, gender of a character can change and that can add another layer or element to the concoction you have setup. The differences between the male Shepard and the female Shepard are actually quite minute. Yes, they have different romances and voice actors but they say the majority of the same lines, perform the same actions, etc. I think this is why she's such a good character, because she's a "character" and not a "female character". 'Cause we're not that different from men. You wouldn't (and shouldn't) go into writing a character who is gay as a "gay character". If you do, you might find that you have given them certain "quirks" that your mind has associated with being "gay" (or fight to abstain from using those "quirks" to keep from being offensive) to write a "gay character"; where otherwise if you'd just written a character first, you'd find that they have a menagerie of qualities from simply being a person that you wouldn't qualify as being gay or straight. Simply being human and complex. If it "flowed" that this person would prefer another of the same gender in a relationship, then that's what fits and you have written a character who happens to be gay in an organic way. The exact same thing is applied to a person's gender or race, etc. Just write. I played games all my life and never understood some of the arguments about sexism and lack of strong women in games, personally. It never crossed my mind because I saw strong women in the all the games I played. Women I was proud to see as role models. Characters like: Jill Valentine and Claire Redfield from Resident Evil, numerous characters from jrpgs (like Maia, Ulala, and Yuki from Persona 2 just to name a few). And I never limited myself to just the female characters; male characters can be role models for girls as well. It all boils down to the individual and the person playing. I will make a disclaimer that I never played online games during almost all my life nor have I ever worked in a game company. I say this because I know that some legit arguments about sexism exists involving this. I'm simply stating my opinion from my own personal life and experience about what I was given in the games I played. |
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Post by Ravenous Bear on Dec 11, 2016 2:03:43 GMT
Complaining about a family/kids movie? Really?
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 11, 2016 2:13:29 GMT
I did indeed. The humor was topical though so good on you I suppose.I'll accept this. *Walks away mumbling something about tsunderes* Oi! o.o If anything I'm the Yandere archetype. Catch my eye and like a cat with a shiny, squeaky bauble I will never let go. |
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Post by Verro on Dec 11, 2016 3:02:43 GMT
I'll accept this. *Walks away mumbling something about tsunderes* Oi! o.o If anything I'm the Yandere archetype. Catch my eye and like a cat with a shiny, squeaky bauble I will never let go. Yanderes are sweet on the outside though. While you might be obsessive, you seem to fit the tsundere archetype much better. Tsunderes can be obsessive as well. |
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Post by Verro on Dec 11, 2016 3:26:59 GMT
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For example, she could have been part of Luke Skywalkers new generation of Jedi like Kylo Ren, and just had her memories taken away so she could live a normal life away from the First Order after Kylo Ren destroyed Lukes attempt to rebuild the Jedi
Be seeing you.
