inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 30, 2016 13:12:13 GMT
Oh, I see, this is similar as GHB in the aspect of free will... I like Pharamond's dream-analogy, especially the "nothing has any meaning" part. Owain really weird, because there are no real logical explanation, why he keep order in the place in chaos. This blind following of the purpose is rather a programmed machine's reaction, than a logical person's, but maybe I'm wrong. One somehow logical explain I can see: that he with his focused, logical mind can't accept the chaos, so he try to keep some order... but this also a wrong theory, because this is rather seems similar as OCD, than lack of emotion. True, he can't do anything against the chaos if not this. So: weird, as I see, but probably explainable. Back to the Vulcans and Cassandra's tranquility "experience": this two show some similarity, yes, but as I see, nothing to do with the "real" practice. I can imagine, that the lyrium mark isn't the cause of tranquility, only a "cattle branding" a'la Chantry. Summa summarum, the writers simply can not imagine what the impact if someone absolutely lacking in emotions (just as me, as you see), and not consistent.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,678
gervaise21
10,797
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Dec 30, 2016 17:12:51 GMT
By the way I've just checked and apparently Vivienne did approve if you make Erimond tranquil, so likely would have endorsed the decision of a non-mage Inquisitor had they been given that option. Not that I wanted it, since I abhor the Rite of Tranquility being used, even on someone like him. Another reason why I'd rather not have Vivienne as Divine, since between keeping Templars on their lyrium leash and approving of making people tranquil, it would not be the sort of legacy I would want. At least Cassandra only slightly approved of doing it. I go with Dorian and Ameridan on this one; it should not be used as a form of punishment.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,678
gervaise21
10,797
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Dec 30, 2016 17:42:26 GMT
I had another thought about when a similar idea was used as the plot and motivation of the main antagonist in Baldurs Gate 2 Irenicus had been punished for his crime of attacking the tree of life by being stripped of his elven soul and has been slowly dying, devoid of true emotion ever since. He then steals the PC's soul but whilst this seems to restore life, his psyche is damaged beyond recall.
Asked by his former lover why he seems so intent on revenge, he replies: "It is all I have now. There is nothing else beyond my revenge. Revenge for what you did to me. I do not remember your love. I have tried to recreate it, to spark it anew in my memory. But it is gone, a hollow dead thing."
Then he goes on to recount what it was like when he had no soul: "For years I clung to the memory of it. Then the memory of the memory. And then nothing." Then back to the present: "I look upon you and feel nothing. I remember nothing but you turning your back on me."
This could be someone describing the state of being a tranquil. Remembering that they did feel something but not actually experiencing it, until they even lose the memory of it, so are left with nothing."
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 30, 2016 19:08:06 GMT
By the way I've just checked and apparently Vivienne did approve if you make Erimond tranquil, so likely would have endorsed the decision of a non-mage Inquisitor had they been given that option. Not that I wanted it, since I abhor the Rite of Tranquility being used, even on someone like him. Another reason why I'd rather not have Vivienne as Divine, since between keeping Templars on their lyrium leash and approving of making people tranquil, it would not be the sort of legacy I would want. At least Cassandra only slightly approved of doing it. I go with Dorian and Ameridan on this one; it should not be used as a form of punishment. Yes, Vivienne approved, but that is irrelevant, because in Gereon Alexius's case Vivienne approves, if Alexius works for the Inquisition, she don't show interest if the Inquisitor Tranquilize Alexius. So: in Inquisition the "First Enchanter" is the mage Inquisitor. The Rite of Tranquility is a very cruel tool, but only a tool, a final solution. Just as the decapitation. Probably a bit worse. The tools are there to use them (blood magic for example), but do not to abuse with them. Erimond is impenitent, and still dangerous. He abused his power, and don't wanted to stop this practice, so: exist that case, when the tranquility is a solution – or the decapitation. Of course, the all-day use should be prohibited, and could be used only in special cases. (Don't forget, probably will be reversible, and the death is not reversible.)
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,678
gervaise21
10,797
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Dec 30, 2016 20:17:39 GMT
If you are using it as punishment, then presumably there is no intention of reversing it at some point. Plus I would direct you to the quote above under the Spoiler about how the person might react if the procedure was reversed at some point. They might not feel gratitude but only a desire to revenge themselves on the person or society that did that to them. Imagine if Erimond had it reversed at a later date; does he seem the sort of person who is going to instantly repent of his previous actions? So if you feel that killing him is too final, then leave him with his mind intact. That will at least give him the opportunity over time, while in prison, to consider whether his previous choices were bad ones. Making someone tranquil as a punishment is just the same as the Qun giving qamek to those who will not submit to their re-education. It makes the person something you can make use of as a commodity.
It is one of the only times I agree with Adrian when she says: "You think it is kinder to turn them into automatons, into servants. If you really fear us so much, then kill us! Don't pretend that killing everything that makes us human isn't the same thing." Now clearly that last sentence makes it clear that she views tranquil as sub-human, which I do not agree with but so far as her declaration over execution versus making them tranquil, the latter is not justice but a sort of prolonged torture that diminishes the person who carries it out just as much as the person it is done to.
After all, in the case of Erimond it was not his magical abilities that made him dangerous but his fanatical belief in the Elder One, that any person could have. Leaving Alexius active was a far more risky situation considering what he had been able to do with his magic personally, than Erimond who only encouraged others to use their magic in that way and was only able to control them through the power invested in him by Corypheus, which he lost when captured. This is why Vivienne is being inconsistent and clearly is looking at it from a revenge point of view than a safety one. The only reason you could safely leave Alexius active was that in fact he seemed to have lost all motivation to do anything significant with his magic once Felix was dead - effectively almost making himself tranquil. After all the items that he produces for the Inquisition whilst serving them are very paltry and likely not much different to what he could have done as a tranquil. So actually what you are punishing Erimond for is not his misuse of his own personal magic but having strong emotions.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 30, 2016 21:23:38 GMT
Tranquility is a final solution, in some very special situation. Erimond abused his power over Grey Wardens: wanted to enslave them. He is absolutly different than Alexius. Alexius dangerous as mage, but this is not a reason to tranqulize him. Erimond dangerous as person. I agree with Adrian – "If you really fear us so much, then kill us!"–, you know, but this is different. Erimond wanted to Wardens as slaves, without will... so: the punishment can be justified. True, questionable.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,884 Likes: 49,347
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,347
Iakus
20,884
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Dec 31, 2016 0:26:10 GMT
Here's a related thought. What about spirits? Do they have emotions of their own or only those of the mortals they latch on to? Do they have free will or are they completely controlled by the sphere of interest as more of an instinctive reaction? Strangely enough they make a great deal of whether spirits are people or not through debate with Solas and to a lesser extent the decision over Cole. According to the Chant, when there was no material world and no mortals, the spirits were motivated to do nothing other than sing the praises of the Maker, which would suggest that in their natural state spirits have no free will. Then the Maker specifically created mortals with the drive to do things, a spark of the divine so to speak. So if the tranquil do not have the motivation to do things for themselves, does that make them more like pure spirits? That would make a certain irony to the fact that in order to make tranquil less attract to spirits, they are actually more like them. Spirits are an interesting concept. At their center, they are beings of chaos. They reflect particular aspects of Thedas, but if they change, their very nature changes with them.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,884 Likes: 49,347
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,347
Iakus
20,884
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Dec 31, 2016 0:54:48 GMT
The whole explanation for how tranquil works is something that I don't think the writers were ever entirely sure about at the beginning and so that is why it seems so confusing and contradictory at times, because they were making it up as they went along. After all, emotions surely come from within you, so why does cutting you off from the Fade remove them? Why does lyrium both aid connection to the Fade and yet also prevent it? Why are dwarves apparently cut off from the Fade, have no magic of their own and do not dream, yet have normal emotions? Why does a spirit touching the mind restore the person's emotions when they still have the lyrium brand that prevented them in the first place? It is almost as though the soul of a person is simultaneously within them and in the Fade, or needs contact with the sustenance of the Fade in order to operate normally. Otherwise it is simply dormant, in hibernation, dare I say it, in uthenera? Able to observe the events taking place around it, whilst not directly taking part. That still doesn't explain why dwarves have normal emotions and yet in other ways seem in the same state as tranquil, cut off from the Fade. I think your idea has merit. IF you look at the Chant of Light: And no longer was it formless, ever-changing, But held fast, immutable, With Words for heaven and for earth, sea and sky. At last did the Maker From the living world Make men. Immutable, as the substance of the earth, With souls made of dream and idea, hope and fear, Endless possibilities. Then the Maker said: "To you, My second-born, I grant this gift: In your heart shall burn
An unquenchable flame
All-consuming, and never satisfied.
From the Fade I crafted you,
And to the Fade you shall return Each night in dreams That you may always remember Me.In a sense, I think part of the human soul remains connected to the Fade, and Tranquility damages it. Perhaps outright severs it. THis is why demons generally don't bother Tranquil: They are invisible, dead to them, as appealing to possess as a rock. And thus why Tranquil lose their emotion and creativity; the soul is where such things reside. And interestingly, The Chant claims that dwarves were not created by the Maker. I guess this really doesn't help the cuase of Tranquility: you are sundering people from their very soul. Tranquil still have the ability to process information. Just not the creativity to derive abstract opinions about them. They are free to analyse information and do what makes logical sense. They may even have subjective personal opinions, like a preferred dish or song. Just don't ask them to have a strong opinion on something.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,884 Likes: 49,347
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,347
Iakus
20,884
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Dec 31, 2016 1:00:50 GMT
If you are using it as punishment, then presumably there is no intention of reversing it at some point. Plus I would direct you to the quote above under the Spoiler about how the person might react if the procedure was reversed at some point. They might not feel gratitude but only a desire to revenge themselves on the person or society that did that to them. Imagine if Erimond had it reversed at a later date; does he seem the sort of person who is going to instantly repent of his previous actions? So if you feel that killing him is too final, then leave him with his mind intact. That will at least give him the opportunity over time, while in prison, to consider whether his previous choices were bad ones. Making someone tranquil as a punishment is just the same as the Qun giving qamek to those who will not submit to their re-education. It makes the person something you can make use of as a commodity.
It is one of the only times I agree with Adrian when she says: "You think it is kinder to turn them into automatons, into servants. If you really fear us so much, then kill us! Don't pretend that killing everything that makes us human isn't the same thing." Now clearly that last sentence makes it clear that she views tranquil as sub-human, which I do not agree with but so far as her declaration over execution versus making them tranquil, the latter is not justice but a sort of prolonged torture that diminishes the person who carries it out just as much as the person it is done to.
After all, in the case of Erimond it was not his magical abilities that made him dangerous but his fanatical belief in the Elder One, that any person could have. Leaving Alexius active was a far more risky situation considering what he had been able to do with his magic personally, than Erimond who only encouraged others to use their magic in that way and was only able to control them through the power invested in him by Corypheus, which he lost when captured. This is why Vivienne is being inconsistent and clearly is looking at it from a revenge point of view than a safety one. The only reason you could safely leave Alexius active was that in fact he seemed to have lost all motivation to do anything significant with his magic once Felix was dead - effectively almost making himself tranquil. After all the items that he produces for the Inquisition whilst serving them are very paltry and likely not much different to what he could have done as a tranquil. So actually what you are punishing Erimond for is not his misuse of his own personal magic but having strong emotions. The theoretical use of Tranquility was to keep mages who could not or would not control their power from becoming a threat to others without killing them. Interestingly, it was meant to be a mercy, a way to keep alive a mage who, possibly through no fault of their own, was simply too dangerous to be around people. So in theory, a Circle tower would not have made Erimond or Alexius Tranquil (well, unless they considered blood magic as being unwilling to control their magic. ), as they both passed their Harrowing and were in full control of their abilities. OF course, theory and fact are two different things...
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 31, 2016 2:40:41 GMT
The simple decisions not really means free will in this cases, as I see. Karl also was able to decision, he helped to Templars to take Anders into the safe place... but this was from "free will"? Oh, yes, the templars not tortured or forced him, they convinced him. But this real free will? Celemence's will was the work for the Inquisition, because he want to live, and shaw, that Redcliffe not safe place. (And yes, you're right, he showed some emotion.) Owain similar as Clemence, without emotion. As I saw, Maddox has some loyality. This is weird. But it might be explained by logic... I am wondering how the Templars convinced Karl. Cannot imagine what it must of been like for him to do that especially since he asked Anders to end it for him. That's a different state of mind. He only remembered his emotions, didn't felt anymore. He knew, what Anders wanted, he knew what he wanted, when he wrote these the letters, but now, as tranquil the freedom was meaningless and irrational. The Circle was the safety, the Circle was home. To leave the Circle: illogical and insecure. He knew, that this is the good. He dont understand, why he wanted to leave before. This wasn't betrayal. The templars asked him, for help to catch Anders. Probably he knew, that not this is what Anders wanted, but this also was meaningless for him. The Circle is the safety: so probably even Anders will see, and now Anders dangerous, the Templars said, and he knew, they didn't lied, because Anders don't likes the Circle. But now he dont understand Anders motivations, but understand, that the templars want to protect the Circle. (You saw the tranquils, everyone of them seems satisfied.) After, that by Justice he connected to the Fade for a moment, he already understand what he lost. He didn't lost his memories about the tranquil-state, so, he realized that he never able to live without his dreams and emotions, as a puppet (sorry, I know, the tranquils not some kind brainless things, but they don't have real free will, I think, he was aware of this). Our opinion also may change, despite, that our mind's state not change. Karl has changed. He saw everything from a different perspective. (I'm not sure about it, what I wrote, only assumption.)
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,678
gervaise21
10,797
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Dec 31, 2016 13:32:48 GMT
It also occurs to me that tranquil Karl would still know that the main reason Anders came to Kirkwall was so they could be reunited So instead of an uncertain future on the run from the authorities, where they might be placing both themselves and other people at risk, helping Anders to be captured will allow them to be together as Anders wants but safe from harm. They might not even have told him they intended making Anders tranquil, although a tranquil Karl would not view this with the horror that a fully aware mage would.
As for a Circle ordering Alexius or Erimond tranquil, I think it is highly likely that they would. Use of blood magic automatically renders you maleficarum and if not summarily executed, then tranquillity would be the alternative, so that would apply to Erimond. Young Jowan was going to be made tranquil simply because he was suspected of using blood magic and he had done nothing like the things that Erimond had. I know he hadn't taken his harrowing yet, so it was allowable anyway under the law of the Chantry, but the reason he was being prevented from doing so is that they viewed his use of blood magic as having rendered him too great a risk even if he passed his harrowing. There is a quote from Irving in WoT2 which says: "If he hadn't turned to blood magic, there would have been no cause to make him tranquil". If you handed him back to the Circle, I wouldn't be surprised if that is how he ended up.
There are other codices about rebel mages down the years who were made tranquil once caught and I don't think they all started as apostates.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 31, 2016 14:03:42 GMT
It also occurs to me that tranquil Karl would still know that the main reason Anders came to Kirkwall was so they could be reunited So instead of an uncertain future on the run from the authorities, where they might be placing both themselves and other people at risk, helping Anders to be captured will allow them to be together as Anders wants but safe from harm. They might not even have told him they intended making Anders tranquil, although a tranquil Karl would not view this with the horror that a fully aware mage would. As for a Circle ordering Alexius or Erimond tranquil, I think it is highly likely that they would. Use of blood magic automatically renders you maleficarum and if not summarily executed, then tranquillity would be the alternative, so that would apply to Erimond. Young Jowan was going to be made tranquil simply because he was suspected of using blood magic and he had done nothing like the things that Erimond had. I know he hadn't taken his harrowing yet, so it was allowable anyway under the law of the Chantry, but the reason he was being prevented from doing so is that they viewed his use of blood magic as having rendered him too great a risk even if he passed his harrowing. There is a quote from Irving in WoT2 which says: "If he hadn't turned to blood magic, there would have been no cause to make him tranquil". If you handed him back to the Circle, I wouldn't be surprised if that is how he ended up. There are other codices about rebel mages down the years who were made tranquil once caught and I don't think they all started as apostates. I think it was common practice, but it's totally against the law, as Anders also said.
|
|
inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,190
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,573
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Dec 31, 2016 17:30:49 GMT
More thread to read but gervaise21 options for Karl: choice one is "Kill Karl as he asked for." Choice 2: "can't be that bad being Tranquil eh?" Choice 2 is so ridiculously bad I can't imagine anyone picked it seriously. I wanted to play a Hawke against killing but she would never have said option 2. But even saying option 2, Anders just is like, "no, it is that bad." And then kills him anyway. I also didn't think it was my Inky saying that Tranquil weren't people. Solas says the world is like one full of tranquil with the context that this was a change and a NEGATIVE change he wants to reverse. I would figure a lot of people don't treat Tranquil people properly, like they are robots or ...Consensual slaves. So, for him to say that is to imply that Thedas is full of non people. His response to Inky supports that context assumption.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,884 Likes: 49,347
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,347
Iakus
20,884
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Dec 31, 2016 17:42:52 GMT
I also didn't think it was my Inky saying that Tranquil weren't people. Solas says the world is like one full of tranquil with the context that this was a change and a NEGATIVE change he wants to reverse. I would figure a lot of people don't treat Tranquil people properly, like they are robots or ...Consensual slaves. So, for him to say that is to imply that Thedas is full of non people. His response to Inky supports that context assumption. A lot of people don't. Even mages who should know better generally don't like being around them, according to Minaeve. Which is why I take the Inquisitor's reaction to Solas's statement as being an extrapolation of what he means: Solas sees the world as if it were full of Tranquil=/= Inquisitor doesn't see Tranquil as people but that Solas doesn't see nonmages as "real people". He thinks of nonmages the way most mages and Templars see Tranquil.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 31, 2016 17:51:28 GMT
I think, Solas is irrelevant on this issues. He remember a world, what don't exist anymore, and to people, who don't exist anymore.
|
|
inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,190
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,573
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Dec 31, 2016 17:52:00 GMT
I never quite understood why Karl would betray Anders but I don't think it was simply because they ordered him to. More likely the Templars put it to him that Anders would be better off back in the safety of the Circle. Karl says something like, "I knew you wouldn't stop." Maybe they presented that Rebellion causes exhaustion and sadness. So Anders would be less of those things if he were made Tranquil. Tranquil Karl logic may have deemed that a more pleasant existence.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 31, 2016 17:54:03 GMT
I never quite understood why Karl would betray Anders but I don't think it was simply because they ordered him to. More likely the Templars put it to him that Anders would be better off back in the safety of the Circle. Karl says something like, "I knew you wouldn't stop." Maybe they presented that Rebellion causes exhaustion and sadness. So Anders would be less of those things if he were made Tranquil. Tranquil Karl logic may have deemed that a more pleasant existence. The rebellion is a chaos, and the Circles don't safe anymore. The freedom is meaningless without emotions.
|
|
xerrai
N3
Posts: 842 Likes: 1,156
inherit
1451
0
1,156
xerrai
842
September 2016
xerrai
|
Post by xerrai on Jan 2, 2017 21:20:56 GMT
I also didn't think it was my Inky saying that Tranquil weren't people. Solas says the world is like one full of tranquil with the context that this was a change and a NEGATIVE change he wants to reverse. I would figure a lot of people don't treat Tranquil people properly, like they are robots or ...Consensual slaves. So, for him to say that is to imply that Thedas is full of non people. His response to Inky supports that context assumption. A lot of people don't. Even mages who should know better generally don't like being around them, according to Minaeve. Which is why I take the Inquisitor's reaction to Solas's statement as being an extrapolation of what he means: Solas sees the world as if it were full of Tranquil=/= Inquisitor doesn't see Tranquil as people but that Solas doesn't see nonmages as "real people". He thinks of nonmages the way most mages and Templars see Tranquil. Which, while deplorable in its way, is not exactly unexpected. Modern Thedas still has the same problem only with different criteria. Back in Solas' time magic was likely right there with emotion and will as 'a major part of being a person'. It's just that modern Thedas does not add magic as a major part of being person anymore even though Solas likely came from a time when it was. So the tranquil allegory may be quite apt. After all even I think (sad as it may be) that Tranquil are lesser-people in comparison to everyone else. Still people. But a lot of what made them people in the first place (i.e emotions) are simply gone. It not like loosing a body part or simply loosing the ability to speak, they lost something crucial to the mortal idea of a 'soul' and/or 'spirit'. It's hard to treat them like 'regular' people when they seem to be lacking in something that you regard as mandatory in some way to being a 'full person'. Which is why I expect that several Thedosians (templars, mages, others) do indeed view tranquil as non-people or at least people close to non-personhood. Where ethics and morals need not apply because by then you are treating them more as animals that just so happen to have human characteristics (like chimpanzees or monkeys) than actual people. Solas seemingly is one of those who does indeed personally delegates tranquil as non-people. But depending on the Inquisitors approval to it, that may have changed during the time he was with the inquisition (in which case he may view them as people, but they are still 'lesser' people).
|
|
Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: HeimdallX
Posts: 5,579 Likes: 12,637
inherit
∯ Interjector in Chief
279
0
1
12,637
Heimdall
5,579
August 2016
heimdall
Heimdall
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
HeimdallX
|
Post by Heimdall on Jan 3, 2017 17:00:57 GMT
Is it emotional instability, or PTSD from being in the state of Tranqility and never wanting to be in that state again? It appears to be emotional instability. Or rather, an inability to control one's natural emotions. Given Pharamond's reaction in Asunder, it's like everything he experienced was dialed up to 11. Cassandra further reinforces this in DAI, once her personal quest is done and she has had time to read the Book of Secrets: “Mages who were once Tranquil lose all control over their emotions. They become irrational, unable to focus. Perhaps that state eventually passes and they can be helped, but it will take time to investigate.”In Asunder, I remember Rhys speculating that maybe Pharamond's emotional instability was part of why he was made Tranquil in the first place, though that Cassandra quote seems to put that to rest.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jan 3, 2017 17:04:13 GMT
It appears to be emotional instability. Or rather, an inability to control one's natural emotions. Given Pharamond's reaction in Asunder, it's like everything he experienced was dialed up to 11. Cassandra further reinforces this in DAI, once her personal quest is done and she has had time to read the Book of Secrets: “Mages who were once Tranquil lose all control over their emotions. They become irrational, unable to focus. Perhaps that state eventually passes and they can be helped, but it will take time to investigate.”In Asunder, I remember Rhys speculating that maybe Pharamond's emotional instability was part of why he was made Tranquil in the first place, though that Cassandra quote seems to put that to rest. So: one example does not prove anything.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,884 Likes: 49,347
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,347
Iakus
20,884
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Jan 3, 2017 17:08:03 GMT
In Asunder, I remember Rhys speculating that maybe Pharamond's emotional instability was part of why he was made Tranquil in the first place, though that Cassandra quote seems to put that to rest. So: one example does not prove anything. Thus why it was speculation.And why the Seeker's book on the ritual disproved that, revealing it was a known side effect.
|
|
inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,190
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,573
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Jan 3, 2017 18:08:18 GMT
Two things:
Would a Tranquil submit information about a crime they had knowledge of without someone directly asking them?
Second, considering that the Seekers ritual leads to accidental Tranquil as an acceptable risk, and that this has also led to intentionally using the ritual to make non consensual Tranquil, should we really be encouraging Cassandra to re start the order?
|
|
Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: HeimdallX
Posts: 5,579 Likes: 12,637
inherit
∯ Interjector in Chief
279
0
1
12,637
Heimdall
5,579
August 2016
heimdall
Heimdall
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
HeimdallX
|
Post by Heimdall on Jan 3, 2017 18:21:50 GMT
Two things: Would a Tranquil submit information about a crime they had knowledge of without someone directly asking them? Second, considering that the Seekers ritual leads to accidental Tranquil as an acceptable risk, and that this has also led to intentionally using the ritual to make non consensual Tranquil, should we really be encouraging Cassandra to re start the order? Hard to say, if the tranquil decided that the benefit of the crime being solved outweighed whatever risk or inconvenience giving that information might cost them, they might. Well, Cassandra said she would be doing away with the secrecy, so any potential Seeker would know what they were getting into. I don't have a problem with voluntary tranquility. Even some mages choose tranquility to escape the risk of possession or other consequences of magic, like Avexis who apparently "talked to dragons" for years after blood mages forced her to drink dragon blood to control them and evidently chose tranquility to escape the voices.
|
|
inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,190
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,573
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Jan 3, 2017 18:24:24 GMT
Two things: Would a Tranquil submit information about a crime they had knowledge of without someone directly asking them? Second, considering that the Seekers ritual leads to accidental Tranquil as an acceptable risk, and that this has also led to intentionally using the ritual to make non consensual Tranquil, should we really be encouraging Cassandra to re start the order? Hard to say, if the tranquil decided that the benefit of the crime being solved outweighed whatever risk or inconvenience giving that information might cost them, they might. Well, Cassandra said she would be doing away with the secrecy, so any potential Seeker would know what they were getting into. I don't have a problem with voluntary tranquility. Even some mages choose tranquility to escape the risk of possession or other consequences of magic, like Avexis who apparently "talked to dragons" for years after blood mages forced her to drink dragon blood to control them and evidently chose tranquility to escape the voices. Where did you read Avexis chose that? Because I had assumed it was forced on her for being too valuable a resource that could be controlled by others.
|
|
Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: HeimdallX
Posts: 5,579 Likes: 12,637
inherit
∯ Interjector in Chief
279
0
1
12,637
Heimdall
5,579
August 2016
heimdall
Heimdall
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
HeimdallX
|
Post by Heimdall on Jan 3, 2017 18:29:48 GMT
Hard to say, if the tranquil decided that the benefit of the crime being solved outweighed whatever risk or inconvenience giving that information might cost them, they might. Well, Cassandra said she would be doing away with the secrecy, so any potential Seeker would know what they were getting into. I don't have a problem with voluntary tranquility. Even some mages choose tranquility to escape the risk of possession or other consequences of magic, like Avexis who apparently "talked to dragons" for years after blood mages forced her to drink dragon blood to control them and evidently chose tranquility to escape the voices. Where did you read Avexis chose that? Because I had assumed it was forced on her for being too valuable a resource that could be controlled by others. Well... I guess I'm making assumptions too. When Giselle asks about her being made tranquil I interpreted her response about no longer talking to dragons to indicate that it was something she had wanted to be rid of by becoming tranquil, after whatever those blood rituals did to her head. EDIT:Rechecked the dialogue. Specifically Giselle asks her if she is happy as a tranquil, to which Avexis responds that "I no longer talk to dragons." I took this to mean that she had wanted to be rid of her connection to dragons and considered tranquility an improvement, indicating that it was a source of torment for her, thus suggesting she sought it out herself.
|
|