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Post by Catilina on Jan 12, 2017 12:07:19 GMT
I just find it a wasted life (okay, "only" a wasted "soul"), because I don't saw, that they would try to convince him, that the magic isn't a curse. If I remember correctly, In the Ferelden circle was an apprentice to praying, she told some similar. This was so pathetic. (And the Ferelden Circle was a "good place"...) The problem is: there are no supervision over the Knight Commander. Yes, I agree with the other points. There's other ways to solve the problem of there being no supervision over the Knight Commander, and the Knight Commander having no supervision is a problem in other ways too. Maybe instead of taking Tranquility off the table to solve this problem, we should try to find a way to make the KC more accountable? More direct supervision from the Seekers, a Seeker speaking privately with both the KC and the FE every so often, the KC and the FE each having a channel to the Seekers that the other can't monitor... Of course the Seekers will need to be kept under better watch, or else this comes to nothing too. Though I'd imagine Cassandra dropping a whole bunch of the secrets if she restarts the Seekers is a good step in that direction. And if she doesn't restart them... well, that complicates things. A lot of the good of the Seekers is the fact that they're a separate organization from the Templars, rather than a just a higher ranking group of Templars that the Templars answer to. A lot of the worst of the Seekers failures came from both groups forgetting that. And if the Seekers are a threat without proper supervision, removing them just means that the Templars aren't accountable to anyone even on paper. Personally I am of the mind that while tranquility should still be an option, but it should be treated as a treatment just below a death sentence. Yet in the series we see it employed as a perceived "mercy" or as a form of corporal punishment for even some comparatively minor infractions (sending a letter? Really?). They just really need to ramp up on the mandatory prerequisites before even considering tranquility as well as ramping up the punishment for those who seek to abuse it. Preferably I would have it issued only as a punishment while those who choose to undergo not undergo the harrowing are sent to a special circle that would accommodate them and their increased risk (sort of like the Ardat Yakshi Monastery in ME3). But forgoing that option on account of Thedas's mediocre knowledge on mental illness and the concerned parties simply not wanting to establish such a Circle.... I think mages should have the right to choose tranquility. I feel like I should point out that it's just one Circle that we know of that Tranquilized mages for sending letters, and that even their Knight-Captain, who was traumatized by blood mages and demons, later acknowledges their Knight-Commander was out of control. Even Chantry faithful have the option to ask why the hell Maddox was Tranquil'd over something that small. In summary, I don't think we're supposed to understand that that's the way that usually works. Beyond that... the "separate Circle for mages who know they can't pass the Harrowing" thing seems really dangerous, and really expensive. The expense isn't enough that I'd shoot this plan down, but the danger? This is a facility that houses all of the mages who can't defend themselves from the demons that want to possess them and turn them into super-monsters. The Ardat-Yakshi Monastery works because the Ardat-Yakshi have to choose to become monsters. Mages don't. Especially not weak mages. And the monster a weak mage can become whether or not they choose it is dangerous even to the people specifically trained and equipped to handle that shit. Something like this is just asking for problems. And that doesn't include the danger of transporting mages who haven't passed their Harrowing. Unless the Circles figure out how to use Eluvians (and while I'm nervous about the ones who already control magic getting that power it'd be nice if someone who wasn't in some way a maniac had it) moving mages is still going to be expensive, and moving mages who aren't Harrowed will be dangerous. Traumatized Knight Commanders, Knight-Captains, Templars: I think they were welcome in the Chantry's view point. They are heavy-handed, distrustful persons, who always kept their eyes on the mages, untiringly, and retaliate any suspicious action (love letter...). This is a convenient solution. In Kirkwall Elthina knew Meredith's methods, but don't wanted to help. (Of course it's an exaggeration – but in similar position this is never excluded.) We know, that the Harrowing can't really help: there are mages, who fails later, no matter, that they have a succeed Harrowing. Vivienne became paranoid because of Harrowing. Her mind has been broken, and this makes her more dangerous, than was before. I think, she is only lucky, that don't turned into abomination yet. The Chantry's supervision is doubtful. Not reliable and never will. Leliana is the best choice for Divine, the Circles are gone (but this isn't perfect: the Circles as mage educational centers and libraries are important), Cassandra could change a lot of things, but the Circles continue belong to the Chantry, and the mages probably prisoners again. Perhaps the tranquility's use will change, and the research will continue. Vivienne is the worst: The Circles fully restored with her own Templars with lyrium, her own mages and chaos because distrust. The best possibility in her case: perhaps she give more independece to the Circles, but the Circles and their position depend on her position, and the Circles are still prisons. The worst: Vivienne fail, and the mage Divine's fall followed by a heavy-handed fanatic, and the mages lose their new "more freedom and responsibility". Probably the Rite of Tranquility's practice remains unchanged in both cases, and no reliable supervision.
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Post by javeart on Jan 12, 2017 15:57:00 GMT
so... wekees don't want to say anything about "how to perform the rite of tranquility" because "spoilers"? (twitter thread)... Promising, no?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 12, 2017 16:39:40 GMT
so... wekees don't want to say anything about "how to perform the rite of tranquility" because "spoilers"? (twitter thread)... Promising, no? We know one possiblity: if someone kill them in the Fade, they will be tranquil. (Feynriel quest) But this not true in any case, because Hawke's companions didn't be tranquil, only Feynriel.
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Post by javeart on Jan 12, 2017 17:05:34 GMT
so... wekees don't want to say anything about "how to perform the rite of tranquility" because "spoilers"? (twitter thread)... Promising, no? We know one possiblity: if someone kill them in the Fade, they will be tranquil. (Feynriel quest) But this not true in any case, because Hawke's companions didn't be tranquil, only Feynriel. yep, there's that, there's the rite in the circle, how the seekers do it... so, what is there still to learn? when I read the question I would never have expected a "spoliers!" answer, I find it super intringuing... what other possibilities are there and why is it coming up in future games and books? I don't know much about this, but I'm hoping you all will have some juicy speculations
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Post by Catilina on Jan 12, 2017 17:14:12 GMT
We know one possiblity: if someone kill them in the Fade, they will be tranquil. (Feynriel quest) But this not true in any case, because Hawke's companions didn't be tranquil, only Feynriel. yep, there's that, there's the rite in the circle, how the seekers do it... so, what is there still to learn? when I read the question I would never have expected a "spoliers!" answer, I find it super intringuing... what ther possibilities are there and why is it coming up in future games and books? I don't know much about this, but I'm hope you all will have some juicy speculations I don't. My imagination is very limited. A tip, why Feynriel can be tranquil in the Fade: he went into the Fade without lyrium, by his own power, in his dream. This was the difference. But I'm not sure.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 12, 2017 17:54:35 GMT
so... wekees don't want to say anything about "how to perform the rite of tranquility" because "spoilers"? (twitter thread)... Promising, no? We know one possiblity: if someone kill them in the Fade, they will be tranquil. (Feynriel quest) But this not true in any case, because Hawke's companions didn't be tranquil, only Feynriel. I think that was particular to Feynriel because he was a Dreamer. Ohher mages are killed in the Fade and simply get knocked back into their bodies
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Post by Catilina on Jan 12, 2017 17:56:12 GMT
We know one possiblity: if someone kill them in the Fade, they will be tranquil. (Feynriel quest) But this not true in any case, because Hawke's companions didn't be tranquil, only Feynriel. I think that was particular to Feynriel because he was a Dreamer. Ohher mages are killed in the Fade and simply get knocked back into their bodies This was my other tip, you see.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 12, 2017 19:19:49 GMT
The you have Felassan. It was heavily implied he was a dreamer. He was killed in the Fade by Fen'Harel and so far as we know he is dead. Some people have expressed the hope of seeing him again as a tranquil but the ending of Masked Empire is pretty unambiguous, "He never heard the blow which killed him", and then there is what Cole says as well. May be it is because he was killed by another dreamer.
So we have 3 different versions of what happens when mages are killed in the Fade: Felassan, Feynriel and Merrill, plus the further examples of non-mages killed in the Fade, Fenris and Isabella.
Considering that Solas compared modern people to tranquil when saying how the world appeared to him when he woke up, may be there is more to that than simple analogy. After all, the Rite simply amplifies the effect of what Solas has already done with the Veil.
I'd also point out that whilst making Madox tranquil for sending letters to his former love may seem an isolated case, in a way that is only what Karl was doing with Anders. Also back in Ferelden poor Lily wasn't even a mage, yet they saw fit to permanently lock her up in the mage prison of Aeonar. Once Jowan had been recovered or disappeared into the wilds, what harm would there have been simply to let her go? She made a tragic mistake in falling for Jowan but she admitted as much and anyone could see she wasn't a bad person. But, no, she was still there 10 years later and the Circle and the Templars in Ferelden were portrayed as more reasonable than elsewhere. So I generally feel that what is considered legal under Chantry law and what actually happens in practice are probably entirely different things, particularly if the local Chantry hierarchy are either too weak to stand up to the Templars or as paranoid in the faith as Meredith was.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 13, 2017 8:57:30 GMT
There's other ways to solve the problem of there being no supervision over the Knight Commander, and the Knight Commander having no supervision is a problem in other ways too. Maybe instead of taking Tranquility off the table to solve this problem, we should try to find a way to make the KC more accountable? More direct supervision from the Seekers, a Seeker speaking privately with both the KC and the FE every so often, the KC and the FE each having a channel to the Seekers that the other can't monitor... Of course the Seekers will need to be kept under better watch, or else this comes to nothing too. Though I'd imagine Cassandra dropping a whole bunch of the secrets if she restarts the Seekers is a good step in that direction. And if she doesn't restart them... well, that complicates things. A lot of the good of the Seekers is the fact that they're a separate organization from the Templars, rather than a just a higher ranking group of Templars that the Templars answer to. A lot of the worst of the Seekers failures came from both groups forgetting that. And if the Seekers are a threat without proper supervision, removing them just means that the Templars aren't accountable to anyone even on paper. I feel like I should point out that it's just one Circle that we know of that Tranquilized mages for sending letters, and that even their Knight-Captain, who was traumatized by blood mages and demons, later acknowledges their Knight-Commander was out of control. Even Chantry faithful have the option to ask why the hell Maddox was Tranquil'd over something that small. In summary, I don't think we're supposed to understand that that's the way that usually works. Beyond that... the "separate Circle for mages who know they can't pass the Harrowing" thing seems really dangerous, and really expensive. The expense isn't enough that I'd shoot this plan down, but the danger? This is a facility that houses all of the mages who can't defend themselves from the demons that want to possess them and turn them into super-monsters. The Ardat-Yakshi Monastery works because the Ardat-Yakshi have to choose to become monsters. Mages don't. Especially not weak mages. And the monster a weak mage can become whether or not they choose it is dangerous even to the people specifically trained and equipped to handle that shit. Something like this is just asking for problems. And that doesn't include the danger of transporting mages who haven't passed their Harrowing. Unless the Circles figure out how to use Eluvians (and while I'm nervous about the ones who already control magic getting that power it'd be nice if someone who wasn't in some way a maniac had it) moving mages is still going to be expensive, and moving mages who aren't Harrowed will be dangerous. Traumatized Knight Commanders, Knight-Captains, Templars: I think they were welcome in the Chantry's view point. They are heavy-handed, distrustful persons, who always kept their eyes on the mages, untiringly, and retaliate any suspicious action (love letter...). This is a convenient solution. In Kirkwall Elthina knew Meredith's methods, but don't wanted to help. (Of course it's an exaggeration – but in similar position this is never excluded.) Putting people who've been traumatized by magic into positions of power over mages is another thing the Templars and the Chantry should stop freaking doing. That said, I don't see how that answers anything I've said. We really don't know that the Harrowing isn't helpful. Now if your argument is that it doesn't prove that the mage will never fall to a demon, you're flatly right. Harrowed mages have fallen. But if your argument is that being thrown against a demon under circumstances that would naturally throw your game off a bit and then winning anyway isn't evidence that you're resistant to them, you'd better make it good. I think I remember you previously making an argument that being paranoid about demons makes you more likely to fall to them, despite the fact that you're more on your guard when dealing with anything that might be a demon. I don't think I remember you adequately explaining how you think that works, though. Most of this seems accurate, though you seem to have a different definition of what is good and what is bad than I do. (Funnily enough.) I'd make two corrections, though. For one thing, the main-game's epilogue for Vivienne states that she's got the Templars firmly under her own control, which shouldn't surprise anyone who listened when she conceded that they needed more oversight than they were getting. So "no reliable supervision" seems inaccurate. The other correction is that under Leiliana the mages from the Inquisition form the College of Enchanters, so that's one organization that helps mages get control of their powers. Then Vivienne refuses to join and tries to re-establish the Circles, and I think we're meant to understand that she has more success than you'd expect from the fact that she can't actually force the mages to rejoin in this ending. Since there are now two organizations dedictated to helping mages control their powers, you'd probably think this ending is perfect. I, on the other hand, am a little disturbed that both organizations seem to answer exclusively to themselves; we spent basically the entirety of Inquisition grappling with organizations that went bad in the absence of meaningful oversight, and had the theme driven home when our own organization lost its way in the last DLC. (Do you want to know why I don't think mages should police themselves? Try playing through the game again looking for a group that successfully does that and then ask me again when you find one.)
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Post by Catilina on Jan 13, 2017 12:54:51 GMT
The you have Felassan. It was heavily implied he was a dreamer. He was killed in the Fade by Fen'Harel and so far as we know he is dead. Some people have expressed the hope of seeing him again as a tranquil but the ending of Masked Empire is pretty unambiguous, "He never heard the blow which killed him", and then there is what Cole says as well. May be it is because he was killed by another dreamer. So we have 3 different versions of what happens when mages are killed in the Fade: Felassan, Feynriel and Merrill, plus the further examples of non-mages killed in the Fade, Fenris and Isabella. Considering that Solas compared modern people to tranquil when saying how the world appeared to him when he woke up, may be there is more to that than simple analogy. After all, the Rite simply amplifies the effect of what Solas has already done with the Veil. I'd also point out that whilst making Madox tranquil for sending letters to his former love may seem an isolated case, in a way that is only what Karl was doing with Anders. Also back in Ferelden poor Lily wasn't even a mage, yet they saw fit to permanently lock her up in the mage prison of Aeonar. Once Jowan had been recovered or disappeared into the wilds, what harm would there have been simply to let her go? She made a tragic mistake in falling for Jowan but she admitted as much and anyone could see she wasn't a bad person. But, no, she was still there 10 years later and the Circle and the Templars in Ferelden were portrayed as more reasonable than elsewhere. So I generally feel that what is considered legal under Chantry law and what actually happens in practice are probably entirely different things, particularly if the local Chantry hierarchy are either too weak to stand up to the Templars or as paranoid in the faith as Meredith was. 1. Yes, I see. I wonder: the writers give us an explanation sometime? I do not think so. 2. Of course, Karl's and Maddox's case is extreme. Probably Eddin's case also was rare case. But they are exist. I think, not this is the main problem: abuse of power often happened –the temptation is too great– the point is always the retaliation and the Chantry do not punish abuses, if the offender is templar (at least we don't see example) so: the Chantry is failed according this criterion; the supervisor can't supervise their own interests without partiality. This is clear: the Chantry broke its own laws. (Of course, this law is wrong from many viewpoint, but not from this.) I also can find excuses, but the sin is still sin; the Chantry has lost the trust – but the trust is important to a similar organization.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 13, 2017 13:36:31 GMT
I think I remember you previously making an argument that being paranoid about demons makes you more likely to fall to them, despite the fact that you're more on your guard when dealing with anything that might be a demon. I don't think I remember you adequately explaining how you think that works, though. Most of this seems accurate, though you seem to have a different definition of what is good and what is bad than I do. (Funnily enough.) I'd make two corrections, though. For one thing, the main-game's epilogue for Vivienne states that she's got the Templars firmly under her own control, which shouldn't surprise anyone who listened when she conceded that they needed more oversight than they were getting. So "no reliable supervision" seems inaccurate. The other correction is that under Leiliana the mages from the Inquisition form the College of Enchanters, so that's one organization that helps mages get control of their powers. Then Vivienne refuses to join and tries to re-establish the Circles, and I think we're meant to understand that she has more success than you'd expect from the fact that she can't actually force the mages to rejoin in this ending. Since there are now two organizations dedictated to helping mages control their powers, you'd probably think this ending is perfect. I, on the other hand, am a little disturbed that both organizations seem to answer exclusively to themselves; we spent basically the entirety of Inquisition grappling with organizations that went bad in the absence of meaningful oversight, and had the theme driven home when our own organization lost its way in the last DLC. (Do you want to know why I don't think mages should police themselves? Try playing through the game again looking for a group that successfully does that and then ask me again when you find one.) Yes, thank you, i forget that. So: Leliana (almost) perfect. And in this case I can say, that Vivienne's initiation is a good thing: I know, that many mages likes to live in the Circle, and if this not compulsory, then can serve the good. (Vivienne as leader remains a concern –her eternal love towards of power make her too dangerous–, but perhaps manageable.) Vivienne as supervisor? That's painfull! This is a most terrible idea, what I can imagine (or most funny? I cant decide...). Vivienne supervise their own templars (and mages)... looks like an excellent playground for her! Now seriously: the owner very rarely can be good supervisor. About paranoia: Meredith was paranoid. And: she fall in temptation by a powerful unidentified magical thing: red lyrium idol, because she believed, that she is strong. The fear can be protection, but the paranoia is a weakness, not a protection. A paranoid person capable anything, against his/her fear. It is easy to take advantage of the demons. The demons can coming indirectly, you know. But yes, this is just my opinion.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 13, 2017 20:17:20 GMT
Traumatized Knight Commanders, Knight-Captains, Templars: I think they were welcome in the Chantry's view point. They are heavy-handed, distrustful persons, who always kept their eyes on the mages, untiringly, and retaliate any suspicious action (love letter...). This is a convenient solution. In Kirkwall Elthina knew Meredith's methods, but don't wanted to help. (Of course it's an exaggeration – but in similar position this is never excluded.) Putting people who've been traumatized by magic into positions of power over mages is another thing the Templars and the Chantry should stop freaking doing. That said, I don't see how that answers anything I've said. We really don't know that the Harrowing isn't helpful. Now if your argument is that it doesn't prove that the mage will never fall to a demon, you're flatly right. Harrowed mages have fallen. But if your argument is that being thrown against a demon under circumstances that would naturally throw your game off a bit and then winning anyway isn't evidence that you're resistant to them, you'd better make it good. I think I remember you previously making an argument that being paranoid about demons makes you more likely to fall to them, despite the fact that you're more on your guard when dealing with anything that might be a demon. I don't think I remember you adequately explaining how you think that works, though. Most of this seems accurate, though you seem to have a different definition of what is good and what is bad than I do. (Funnily enough.) I'd make two corrections, though. For one thing, the main-game's epilogue for Vivienne states that she's got the Templars firmly under her own control, which shouldn't surprise anyone who listened when she conceded that they needed more oversight than they were getting. So "no reliable supervision" seems inaccurate. The other correction is that under Leiliana the mages from the Inquisition form the College of Enchanters, so that's one organization that helps mages get control of their powers. Then Vivienne refuses to join and tries to re-establish the Circles, and I think we're meant to understand that she has more success than you'd expect from the fact that she can't actually force the mages to rejoin in this ending. Since there are now two organizations dedictated to helping mages control their powers, you'd probably think this ending is perfect. I, on the other hand, am a little disturbed that both organizations seem to answer exclusively to themselves; we spent basically the entirety of Inquisition grappling with organizations that went bad in the absence of meaningful oversight, and had the theme driven home when our own organization lost its way in the last DLC. (Do you want to know why I don't think mages should police themselves? Try playing through the game again looking for a group that successfully does that and then ask me again when you find one.) I don't think Vivienne as Grand Enchanter as too bad. She always viewed the Circle as a positive thing, and honestly believes it is place where mages can be safe and educated, so I think she would try to change the Circle to serve that purpose. The main problem I have with her is her antagonistic view toward the Bright Hand/College of Enchanters even when they are a Circle fraternity trying to change the Circle of within. As a personal note, I find Vivienne as Grand Enchanter under a Divine Leliana to be promising. Assuming she doesn't intentionally try to tie the Circle to the Chantry beyond commerce, Vivienne's Circle without Chantry interference can greatly increase the curriculum available to mages on account of effectively reducing the Chantry's involvement in their education while t the same time freeing them to duties that the Chantry would have condoned. And Vivienne has always been supportive of templars means that she likely either approach the independent templars or seekers to help assist the Circle on amicable terms. But I will disagree with you when you imply that the two parties should not answer to themselves. While I agree a bit of oversight is appreciated, perhaps even needed--most of the "oversight" provided by say, the Seekers unto the Templars, the Templars unto the Circle, the Chantry unto the Templars, have all ended in disaster one way or another. Sometimes it even lead to systematic abuse. Its times like these when I say maybe they should manage themselves. Especially when most prior attempts at outside management either failed or were inadequate. It seems no organization, either with or without oversight, is not immune to corruption. I don't think the answer is supposed to be simple. But at the very least I would be more prone to letting the mages manage themselves for the most part, but with other organizations checking in everyone in a while. I can appreciate the sentiment of checks and balances. (Although as far as a mage group "successfully" policing themselves....would you accept the Mages' Collective?)
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Post by Catilina on Jan 13, 2017 20:51:35 GMT
Putting people who've been traumatized by magic into positions of power over mages is another thing the Templars and the Chantry should stop freaking doing. That said, I don't see how that answers anything I've said. We really don't know that the Harrowing isn't helpful. Now if your argument is that it doesn't prove that the mage will never fall to a demon, you're flatly right. Harrowed mages have fallen. But if your argument is that being thrown against a demon under circumstances that would naturally throw your game off a bit and then winning anyway isn't evidence that you're resistant to them, you'd better make it good. I think I remember you previously making an argument that being paranoid about demons makes you more likely to fall to them, despite the fact that you're more on your guard when dealing with anything that might be a demon. I don't think I remember you adequately explaining how you think that works, though. Most of this seems accurate, though you seem to have a different definition of what is good and what is bad than I do. (Funnily enough.) I'd make two corrections, though. For one thing, the main-game's epilogue for Vivienne states that she's got the Templars firmly under her own control, which shouldn't surprise anyone who listened when she conceded that they needed more oversight than they were getting. So "no reliable supervision" seems inaccurate. The other correction is that under Leiliana the mages from the Inquisition form the College of Enchanters, so that's one organization that helps mages get control of their powers. Then Vivienne refuses to join and tries to re-establish the Circles, and I think we're meant to understand that she has more success than you'd expect from the fact that she can't actually force the mages to rejoin in this ending. Since there are now two organizations dedictated to helping mages control their powers, you'd probably think this ending is perfect. I, on the other hand, am a little disturbed that both organizations seem to answer exclusively to themselves; we spent basically the entirety of Inquisition grappling with organizations that went bad in the absence of meaningful oversight, and had the theme driven home when our own organization lost its way in the last DLC. (Do you want to know why I don't think mages should police themselves? Try playing through the game again looking for a group that successfully does that and then ask me again when you find one.) I don't think Vivienne as Grand Enchanter as too bad. She always viewed the Circle as a positive thing, and honestly believes it is place where mages can be safe and educated, so I think she would try to change the Circle to serve that purpose. The main problem I have with her is her antagonistic view toward the Bright Hand/College of Enchanters even when they are a Circle fraternity trying to change the Circle of within. As a personal note, I find Vivienne as Grand Enchanter under a Divine Leliana to be promising. Assuming she doesn't intentionally try to tie the Circle to the Chantry beyond commerce, Vivienne's Circle without Chantry interference can greatly increase the curriculum available to mages on account of effectively reducing the Chantry's involvement in their education while t the same time freeing them to duties that the Chantry would have condoned. And Vivienne has always been supportive of templars means that she likely either approach the independent templars or seekers to help assist the Circle on amicable terms. But I will disagree with you when you imply that the two parties should not answer to themselves. While I agree a bit of oversight is appreciated, perhaps even needed--most of the "oversight" provided by say, the Seekers unto the Templars, the Templars unto the Circle, the Chantry unto the Templars, have all ended in disaster one way or another. Sometimes it even lead to systematic abuse. Its times like these when I say maybe they should manage themselves. Especially when most prior attempts at outside management either failed or were inadequate. It seems no organization, either with or without oversight, is not immune to corruption. I don't think the answer is supposed to be simple. But at the very least I would be more prone to letting the mages manage themselves for the most part, but with other organizations checking in everyone in a while. I can appreciate the sentiment of checks and balances. (Although as far as a mage group "successfully" policing themselves....would you accept the Mages' Collective?) Vivienne's idea with a Circle for a loyal mages and for mages who wants a safe place, isn't bad. If Vivienne's goal really only a safe place to mages, where they can train and live. But Vivienne always a concern: she wants power. Without supervision she can be very dangerous, if she have her own loyal mage group. I don't like her nexus with the Templars. She don't have any problem to feed templars with lyrium, and bound them to herself. Policing themselves? No. This seems a bad idea. A group from Seekers/Templars (without lyrium) and Mages need to cooperate. Of course this also not perfect, but can work.
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