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Post by Catilina on Jan 4, 2017 19:31:36 GMT
deadlydwarf and phoray , One way I reconciled the Alistair and lyrium issue is that he didn't know he was taking it. I expanded on it in my fanfic, but basically, recruits are given a very weak solution, more to see if they can tolerate and to prepare them for full doses later. They just don't know it. Not every warrior can become a templar, it requires a certain skillset and mental discipline. Of course, by the time of the comics, he's learned a bit more. I figure that part of getting ready is using lyrium, at least in small doses. If I am going to infiltrate an Antivan fortress, I have to assume they have mages and I want every edge I can get. Later, when he knows he's facing a Tevinter magister, he'd be stupid not to continue. I never watched Dawn of the Seeker, but I think I read the wiki about it. Anyway, I am going to assume that any 10-year old girl who is abducted and forced to do something by blood mages is going to have nightmares. Add in the whole dragon thing, that's a lot for a little girl to process. Even if she gains some control against them, those voices are a reminder of terrible events. Nor do I see dragons willingly leaving her in peace. I can see that eventually, under those circumstances, she might choose Tranquility. Even if the templars/First Enchanter/whoever decided for her, in this instance they could see it as a kind of blessing as well as a safety issue. That's a good possible explanation. The question is, how long would the last dosage given to him last before the abilities wear off? For how many months was he a Warden before you meet him at Ostagar? And then how many months till the showdown with the AD? Dawn of the Seeker is low-grade anime but I still liked it. Many of the mages didn't use staves which I thought odd. The grand finale of the film, however, meshes very well with Cass' verbal descriptions about how she became the Right Hand. Given that she rescued the little girl, Avexis, in that film, it's surprising she doesn't interact with Tranquil Avexis at all at Haven. Nor do we hear if Avexis' being made Tranquil affected her views on the subject. At the end Avexis looked as a happy girl. As I said, she probably have nightmares, but I don't think, that the tranquility is a solution... but probably I'm a hippie, who likes his free will and emotions, and can't imagine the life whithout these.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 4, 2017 19:59:23 GMT
So far as Alistair is concerned, clearly they couldn't have him dependent on lyrium because of having to explain how you kept him supplied or alternatively why he didn't show the affects of doing without it. However, according to what he says in game he was not addicted to lyrium, nor did he require it to exercise his powers. He then expresses doubts that any Templar really needs it and thinks it could be a way the Chantry keeps their hold over them. Now to contradict his claims in a comic is all very well but not everyone reads the comics. So far as I am concerned, that was an issue that was left hanging, with the possibility that many Templars were just as much victims of Chantry control as mages were.
Now a better way of explaining the Alistair anomaly, if they wanted to discount his assertion about the possibility of Templars not needing lyrium because he didn't, they could have attributed it to his "special" blood that he was able to do things that most Templars could not do without lyrium. Only trouble with that, is that the information about his bloodline was in that same comic. I must admit I found all the stuff about the Magellan, the way Calenhad acquired his powers (I never knew he was meant to have special powers, just some magical armour) and the whole blood of the dragons thing was all too much. Like characters with the same name had been transposed from a different fantasy world. Even the stuff with Yavana and the Great Dragon doesn't really seem to fit with what has been revealed since. Are the comics meant to be canon? I suppose they must be since the story is outlined in WoT2.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Jan 4, 2017 21:01:17 GMT
That's a good possible explanation. The question is, how long would the last dosage given to him last before the abilities wear off? For how many months was he a Warden before you meet him at Ostagar? And then how many months till the showdown with the AD? Dawn of the Seeker is low-grade anime but I still liked it. Many of the mages didn't use staves which I thought odd. The grand finale of the film, however, meshes very well with Cass' verbal descriptions about how she became the Right Hand. Given that she rescued the little girl, Avexis, in that film, it's surprising she doesn't interact with Tranquil Avexis at all at Haven. Nor do we hear if Avexis' being made Tranquil affected her views on the subject. At the end Avexis looked as a happy girl. As I said, she probably have nightmares, but I don't think, that the tranquility is a solution... but probably I'm a hippie, who likes his free will and emotions, and can't imagine the life whithout these. With regard to Avexis, the problem is we have no idea what happens after we see the happy little girl at the end of "Dawn of the Seeker" that leads to her being made Tranquil. It's possible that overzealous Chantry Priests and Templars had her made Tranquil simply because they feared what Avexis might do when her powers matured. (A mage who can control a flock of dragons would definitely be scary.) It's also possible that she had problems that not even an experienced First Enchanter could help her with; problems that made her a danger to herself and to those around her. In truth, in the books and games, I don't think we ever see the typical circumstances when a mage is made tranquil. In DA2, we only see instances where it was abused or about to be abused by bad Templars. I think we would need to see a "typical situation" of a mage being made tranquil decided by reasonably decent priests and Templars to figure out whether it is ever justified.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 4, 2017 21:07:01 GMT
I always thought Avexis was made tranquil because she was considered dangerous simply because her powers were of an unknown variety. Not every mage can control dragons, so one her sort popping up is sort of like a dreamer popping up (not in probability, but more of how they are considered to be more "at risk") --powerful yes, but absolutely more vulnerable to corrupting influences. For dreamers this means demons, for Avexis it was blood mages. These corrupting influence result in powerful as hell abominations apparently (though this is in question now) and a dragon attacking the Grand Cathedral respectively.
I'm not saying they forced it on her necessarily, but I am willing to bet money that by the time her Harrowing was coming up they were putting ideas into her head that tranquility was a better option than undergoing the harrowing. Hell, they may have given her the idea as soon as she was inducted into the White Spire as an apprentice. Any templar who so much as heard of her would instantly be scared of her. And some mages too.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 4, 2017 21:14:35 GMT
At the end Avexis looked as a happy girl. As I said, she probably have nightmares, but I don't think, that the tranquility is a solution... but probably I'm a hippie, who likes his free will and emotions, and can't imagine the life whithout these. With regard to Avexis, the problem is we have no idea what happens after we see the happy little girl at the end of "Dawn of the Seeker" that leads to her being made Tranquil. It's possible that overzealous Chantry Priests and Templars had her made Tranquil simply because they feared what Avexis might do when her powers matured. (A mage who can control a flock of dragons would definitely be scary.) It's also possible that she had problems that not even an experienced First Enchanter could help her with; problems that made her a danger to herself and to those around her. In truth, in the books and games, I don't think we ever see the typical circumstances when a mage is made tranquil. In DA2, we only see instances where it was abused or about to be abused by bad Templars. I think we would need to see a "typical situation" of a mage being made tranquil decided by reasonably decent priests and Templars to figure out whether it is ever justified. I think it's generally been indicated that the Chantry approved use of tranquility is as punishment for maleficar and for extreme cases of mages deemed unable to control their abilities safely, the latter group including mages who seek tranquility either for a desire to be rid of magic or fear of demonic possession. I think the First Enchanter technically has a say in the matter, officially anyway, in approving the use of tranquility.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 4, 2017 21:25:16 GMT
At the end Avexis looked as a happy girl. As I said, she probably have nightmares, but I don't think, that the tranquility is a solution... but probably I'm a hippie, who likes his free will and emotions, and can't imagine the life whithout these. With regard to Avexis, the problem is we have no idea what happens after we see the happy little girl at the end of "Dawn of the Seeker" that leads to her being made Tranquil. It's possible that overzealous Chantry Priests and Templars had her made Tranquil simply because they feared what Avexis might do when her powers matured. (A mage who can control a flock of dragons would definitely be scary.) It's also possible that she had problems that not even an experienced First Enchanter could help her with; problems that made her a danger to herself and to those around her. In truth, in the books and games, I don't think we ever see the typical circumstances when a mage is made tranquil. In DA2, we only see instances where it was abused or about to be abused by bad Templars. I think we would need to see a "typical situation" of a mage being made tranquil decided by reasonably decent priests and Templars to figure out whether it is ever justified. Sorry, I don't see any reason to use tranquil as preventive tool.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 4, 2017 21:39:52 GMT
I always thought Avexis was made tranquil because she was considered dangerous simply because her powers were of an unknown variety. Not every mage can control dragons, so one her sort popping up is sort of like a dreamer popping up (not in probability, but more of how they are considered to be more "at risk") --powerful yes, but absolutely more vulnerable to corrupting influences. For dreamers this means demons, for Avexis it was blood mages. These corrupting influence result in powerful as hell abominations apparently (though this is in question now) and a dragon attacking the Grand Cathedral respectively. I'm not saying they forced it on her necessarily, but I am willing to bet money that by the time her Harrowing was coming up they were putting ideas into her head that tranquility was a better option than undergoing the harrowing. Hell, they may have given her the idea as soon as she was inducted into the White Spire as an apprentice. Any templar who so much as heard of her would instantly be scared of her. And some mages too. Of course, if we fear from some people, the best thing, what we can do: lobotomize them. (It's weird to see, how much people agree with this method, I found that extremely cruel.)
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Stealth Swooper
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Post by Norstaera on Jan 4, 2017 23:35:50 GMT
Huh, we must not be reading the same thing. I don't see a lot of people agreeing with using the Rite of Tranquility. Trying to discuss it and understand its use in-game, but not that it's a good idea. Well, maybe in Erimund's case (is that his name, the magister who delivered the Wardens to Corypheus?) That's about the only punishment he feared. I'm only half serious here, maybe a third.
One of the things that bothers me about Tranquility, it's been around a long time. Presumably as long as the Litany of Adralla or longer. If bards, mages, and templars can work together to develop the Litany, why can't they do something to replace the Rite? Even if it's something that has to be renewed every few years but doesn't completely block emotions, etc.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 5, 2017 0:53:20 GMT
Huh, we must not be reading the same thing. I don't see a lot of people agreeing with using the Rite of Tranquility. Trying to discuss it and understand its use in-game, but not that it's a good idea. Well, maybe in Erimund's case (is that his name, the magister who delivered the Wardens to Corypheus?) That's about the only punishment he feared. I'm only half serious here, maybe a third. One of the things that bothers me about Tranquility, it's been around a long time. Presumably as long as the Litany of Adralla or longer. If bards, mages, and templars can work together to develop the Litany, why can't they do something to replace the Rite? Even if it's something that has to be renewed every few years but doesn't completely block emotions, etc. It's worth remembering that the Rite was introduced as mercy, an alternative to killing troubled and troublesome mages that posed a danger. The Seeker's suppressed the cure because tranquility's permanence maintained the harshness of the punishment.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Jan 5, 2017 1:19:05 GMT
With regard to Avexis, the problem is we have no idea what happens after we see the happy little girl at the end of "Dawn of the Seeker" that leads to her being made Tranquil. It's possible that overzealous Chantry Priests and Templars had her made Tranquil simply because they feared what Avexis might do when her powers matured. (A mage who can control a flock of dragons would definitely be scary.) It's also possible that she had problems that not even an experienced First Enchanter could help her with; problems that made her a danger to herself and to those around her. In truth, in the books and games, I don't think we ever see the typical circumstances when a mage is made tranquil. In DA2, we only see instances where it was abused or about to be abused by bad Templars. I think we would need to see a "typical situation" of a mage being made tranquil decided by reasonably decent priests and Templars to figure out whether it is ever justified. I think it's generally been indicated that the Chantry approved use of tranquility is as punishment for maleficar and for extreme cases of mages deemed unable to control their abilities safely, the latter group including mages who seek tranquility either for a desire to be rid of magic or fear of demonic possession. I think the First Enchanter technically has a say in the matter, officially anyway, in approving the use of tranquility. I assume Avexis fell into this category. The question is, what specifically prompted the rite of tranquility. Did they act preemptively after having observed the attack on the Divine? Did Avexis have subsequent dangerous episodes that prompted the rite as a last resort? Or did Avexis ask for it because she was troubled by nightmares and her "telepathic" connection to dragons? The answer would tell us whether applying the rite to Avexis was a brutal crime or an act of mercy or something in between.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Jan 5, 2017 1:26:34 GMT
Huh, we must not be reading the same thing. I don't see a lot of people agreeing with using the Rite of Tranquility. Trying to discuss it and understand its use in-game, but not that it's a good idea. Well, maybe in Erimund's case (is that his name, the magister who delivered the Wardens to Corypheus?) That's about the only punishment he feared. I'm only half serious here, maybe a third. One of the things that bothers me about Tranquility, it's been around a long time. Presumably as long as the Litany of Adralla or longer. If bards, mages, and templars can work together to develop the Litany, why can't they do something to replace the Rite? Even if it's something that has to be renewed every few years but doesn't completely block emotions, etc. I just noted your comment on the bottom about writing fan fiction. Might filling in the blanks on what happened to Avexis be a suitable topic for a short story on the subject?
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N3
Stealth Swooper
This morning my husband said I was evil like June Cleaver. I cried a single tear of wicked happiness
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 385 Likes: 745
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Post by Norstaera on Jan 5, 2017 2:43:07 GMT
**snip** One of the things that bothers me about Tranquility, it's been around a long time. Presumably as long as the Litany of Adralla or longer. If bards, mages, and templars can work together to develop the Litany, why can't they do something to replace the Rite? Even if it's something that has to be renewed every few years but doesn't completely block emotions, etc. It's worth remembering that the Rite was introduced as mercy, an alternative to killing troubled and troublesome mages that posed a danger. The Seeker's suppressed the cure because tranquility's permanence maintained the harshness of the punishment. That may be true, but for the mages who worry, necessarily or not, a more moderate solution would surely be preferable. Mages who are merely nervous or slow to gain control of their powers might benefit from a few years of partial, and reversable disconnect. They can concentrate more on strengthening their will, or whatever they need to do in order to be better prepared. When the block is removed, or dissipates after a period of time, they shouldn't experience the same maelstrom or instability Cassandra referred to because they wouldn't be cut off from everything. The Rite itself could be kept as a separate punishment for the worst offences. Also, some sort of tribunal or something could be established to determine if a situation warranted it, not left in the hands of a Knight-Commander and subordinates. Maybe when first introduced they thought it a mercy, but the 'death over Tranquility' response could have made them look a little harder for alternatives, even if it took a long time. Maybe it's naive, but if such a severe weapon was removed from the templar's arsenal, perhaps relations between mages and templars wouldn't have gotten so bad. Somebody like Ser Alrik would still be abusive, but I bet he'd have a harder time getting away with his crimes. On another note, I was curious to see if there were any stories about Avexis. I didn't find any on fanfic.net, but I found a couple on ao3.org. I don't know enough about the story to tackle a story from her pov, but from that of a completely different Tranquil . . . Anyway, deadlydwarf , if you or anybody else are interested, here they are: Echoes of the Dawn by iduna and Sanctuary by DeCarabas.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 5, 2017 13:27:00 GMT
It's worth remembering that the Rite was introduced as mercy, an alternative to killing troubled and troublesome mages that posed a danger. The Seeker's suppressed the cure because tranquility's permanence maintained the harshness of the punishment. That may be true, but for the mages who worry, necessarily or not, a more moderate solution would surely be preferable. Mages who are merely nervous or slow to gain control of their powers might benefit from a few years of partial, and reversable disconnect. They can concentrate more on strengthening their will, or whatever they need to do in order to be better prepared. When the block is removed, or dissipates after a period of time, they shouldn't experience the same maelstrom or instability Cassandra referred to because they wouldn't be cut off from everything. The Rite itself could be kept as a separate punishment for the worst offences. Also, some sort of tribunal or something could be established to determine if a situation warranted it, not left in the hands of a Knight-Commander and subordinates. Maybe when first introduced they thought it a mercy, but the 'death over Tranquility' response could have made them look a little harder for alternatives, even if it took a long time. Maybe it's naive, but if such a severe weapon was removed from the templar's arsenal, perhaps relations between mages and templars wouldn't have gotten so bad. Somebody like Ser Alrik would still be abusive, but I bet he'd have a harder time getting away with his crimes. On another note, I was curious to see if there were any stories about Avexis. I didn't find any on fanfic.net, but I found a couple on ao3.org. I don't know enough about the story to tackle a story from her pov, but from that of a completely different Tranquil . . . Anyway, deadlydwarf , if you or anybody else are interested, here they are: Echoes of the Dawn by iduna and Sanctuary by DeCarabas. See, temporarily dampening a mage's connection to the Fade is essentially what Templars are able to do, but the effect is extremely short lived and not really useful for the purpose you are suggesting. Given that magic comes from the connection to the Fade which is also the source of emotions, I'm not sure it's possible to cut one off without the other aside from that fleeting dampening affect. So sure, it would be nice to have an alternative and clearly the use of Tranquility has only made relations between Templar and mage worse, but that doesn't mean it's possible.
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Stealth Swooper
This morning my husband said I was evil like June Cleaver. I cried a single tear of wicked happiness
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Post by Norstaera on Jan 5, 2017 14:53:15 GMT
I agree that a mana cleanse is too short-term. I don't recall a single mention that anybody even tried to find an alternative, not a templar, not a mage, not anybody. It wouldn't be easy, and you're right, maybe not possible. I suppose when Solas blows up the Veil, the Rite of Tranquility will be impossible even if there are any Templars or Seekers left alive.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 7, 2017 11:47:03 GMT
With regard to Avexis, the problem is we have no idea what happens after we see the happy little girl at the end of "Dawn of the Seeker" that leads to her being made Tranquil. It's possible that overzealous Chantry Priests and Templars had her made Tranquil simply because they feared what Avexis might do when her powers matured. (A mage who can control a flock of dragons would definitely be scary.) It's also possible that she had problems that not even an experienced First Enchanter could help her with; problems that made her a danger to herself and to those around her. In truth, in the books and games, I don't think we ever see the typical circumstances when a mage is made tranquil. In DA2, we only see instances where it was abused or about to be abused by bad Templars. I think we would need to see a "typical situation" of a mage being made tranquil decided by reasonably decent priests and Templars to figure out whether it is ever justified. Sorry, I don't see any reason to use tranquil as preventive tool. Well, according to a Gaider quote I found by searching the wiki, Tranquility is only supposed to be used on a mage who either can't control their powers or isn't willing to do so. Ignoring all the other ways Tranquility is used, whether or not Gaider quotes can be considered canon, and whether anything found in canon seems to match the ideal Gaider sets forth, would you consider that a reason to use Tranquility as a preventative measure?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 7, 2017 12:01:33 GMT
Sorry, I don't see any reason to use tranquil as preventive tool. Well, according to a Gaider quote I found by searching the wiki, Tranquility is only supposed to be used on a mage who either can't control their powers or isn't willing to do so. Ignoring all the other ways Tranquility is used, whether or not Gaider quotes can be considered canon, and whether anything found in canon seems to match the ideal Gaider sets forth, would you consider that a reason to use Tranquility as a preventative measure? Not for me. Maybe for Gaider. But Gayder and/or the other writers of DA-universe also wrote character, who think about tranquility similar than me. What about kill them?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 7, 2017 12:24:40 GMT
Well, according to a Gaider quote I found by searching the wiki, Tranquility is only supposed to be used on a mage who either can't control their powers or isn't willing to do so. Ignoring all the other ways Tranquility is used, whether or not Gaider quotes can be considered canon, and whether anything found in canon seems to match the ideal Gaider sets forth, would you consider that a reason to use Tranquility as a preventative measure? Not for me. Maybe for Gaider. But Gayder and/or the other writers of DA-universe also wrote character, who think about tranquility similar than me. What about kill them? Then no, you probably won't see any reason to use Tranquility as a preventive measure. But if nothing else I personally think Tranquility is preferable to death (especially since I still don't think anything has happened in Thedas to prove the existence of an immortal soul) and if it gets to the point where it's either one or the other I think there should at least be an alternative to death on the table. Or would you prefer the mage who wrote Journal of the Tranquil, and who claims to have chosen Tranquility as an alternative to certain death, not have that out open to him?
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August 2016
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Post by Catilina on Jan 7, 2017 12:40:21 GMT
Not for me. Maybe for Gaider. But Gayder and/or the other writers of DA-universe also wrote character, who think about tranquility similar than me. What about kill them? Then no, you probably won't see any reason to use Tranquility as a preventive measure. But if nothing else I personally think Tranquility is preferable to death (especially since I still don't think anything has happened in Thedas to prove the existence of an immortal soul) and if it gets to the point where it's either one or the other I think there should at least be an alternative to death on the table. Or would you prefer the mage who wrote Journal of the Tranquil, and who claims to have chosen Tranquility as an alternative to certain death, not have that out open to him? Open for what? To be puppet without will, and to serve anyone, whatever their "master" want? Let's be more honest (and less hypocrite): the tranquility is a tool. Can be useful. As a final solution, if someone as Erimond for example, really dangerous and impenitent criminal, or, if we want effective, focused servants, without any motivation for rebelled. Tranquility is very useful. But. Not. A. Blessing/Mercy.
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Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 7, 2017 13:09:19 GMT
Then no, you probably won't see any reason to use Tranquility as a preventive measure. But if nothing else I personally think Tranquility is preferable to death (especially since I still don't think anything has happened in Thedas to prove the existence of an immortal soul) and if it gets to the point where it's either one or the other I think there should at least be an alternative to death on the table. Or would you prefer the mage who wrote Journal of the Tranquil, and who claims to have chosen Tranquility as an alternative to certain death, not have that out open to him? Open for what? To be puppet without will, and to serve anyone, whatever their "master" want? Let's be more honest (and less hypocrite): the tranquility is a tool. Can be useful. As a final solution, if someone as Erimond for example, really dangerous and impenitent criminal, or, if we want effective, focused servants, without any motivation for rebelled. Tranquility is very useful. But. Not. A. Blessing/Mercy. To all appearances, he chose to not die at the price of becoming Tranquil. You didn't answer the question: should he not have been able to choose that? And you have to ignore some stuff to say that Tranquil are "puppets without will." Maddox chose to kill himself out of loyalty to his friend, and didn't repent of his decision even when its irrationality was thrown in his face by a guy you'd probably argue was his new master. The Tranquil in Asunder who confronts the party as they seek to destroy the phylacteries in White Spire decides not to interfere, and when Evangeline questions what's happening because it doesn't fit with her opinion of the Tranquil (which is exactly the same as yours) the Tranquil says "just because it's wiser to obey than not doesn't mean we don't have free will."
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Wanted Apostate
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18,242
Catilina
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August 2016
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Post by Catilina on Jan 7, 2017 13:53:12 GMT
Open for what? To be puppet without will, and to serve anyone, whatever their "master" want? Let's be more honest (and less hypocrite): the tranquility is a tool. Can be useful. As a final solution, if someone as Erimond for example, really dangerous and impenitent criminal, or, if we want effective, focused servants, without any motivation for rebelled. Tranquility is very useful. But. Not. A. Blessing/Mercy. To all appearances, he chose to not die at the price of becoming Tranquil. You didn't answer the question: should he not have been able to choose that? And you have to ignore some stuff to say that Tranquil are "puppets without will." Maddox chose to kill himself out of loyalty to his friend, and didn't repent of his decision even when its irrationality was thrown in his face by a guy you'd probably argue was his new master. The Tranquil in Asunder who confronts the party as they seek to destroy the phylacteries in White Spire decides not to interfere, and when Evangeline questions what's happening because it doesn't fit with her opinion of the Tranquil (which is exactly the same as yours) the Tranquil says "just because it's wiser to obey than not doesn't mean we don't have free will." I already wrote, what I think about this "free will". (I don't reject, that they have some "will", but this not same as an healthy, complete human's free will.) More than enough to say, that the writers are not consistent on this. The tranquils lose their emotions, because of the side effect of the Rite of Tranquility. To lose emotions much more –as I see–, that they can no longer cry, when they see a kitten, or to fall in love. Without emotions, the people don't have motivations, without motivations, they don't want anything, just survive, because of instinct. The writers probably can't imagine, how to live a human without emotions, or they saw, that have gone too far, and the tranquility succeed too unacceptable, and make the Seekers, Templars and finally the Chantry too evil, so they corrected... (Not really, I found the Inquisition's tranquil so pathetic: she said, that she remember, that before the tranquil have some hard times –she don't wanted to be tranquil, I suppose–, but now don't understand, why... ugh!)
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Nov 26, 2017 12:37:49 GMT
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fylimar
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Aug 16, 2016 18:31:34 GMT
August 2016
fylimar
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by fylimar on Jan 7, 2017 15:29:54 GMT
I never saw 'Dawn of the seeker', but the story of the girl Avexis really makes me sad. I can't believe, that her only option was to be made tranquil. Hawke was able to help Feynriel with his problem, someone probably could have helped Avexis too. So I think, they gave her up too soon or she herself gave up too soon. I was really freaked out when I first heard of the Rite of Tranquility in DAO. That's the reason, my characters mostly help Jowan escape in the mage origin, because I think, it's a harsh treatment. I don't think, that tranquil are mindless or without own motivations, but without emotions, they lost a big part of their lifes and I personally rather live with my negative feelings like fear and anger, than giving them up. I don't think, that a knight commander or any other single person should decide about the rite of tranquility. The consequences are too big. If they relly have to hang on to this practise, they should have at least a trained commission to do the judging. My inqui never made anyone tranquil: Alexius has to work for the mages he wronged and the others get similar tasks, works fine for me.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 7, 2017 15:49:45 GMT
I never saw 'Dawn of the seeker', but the story of the girl Avexis really makes me sad. I can't believe, that her only option was to be made tranquil. Hawke was able to help Feynriel with his problem, someone probably could have helped Avexis too. So I think, they gave her up too soon or she herself gave up too soon. I was really freaked out when I first heard of the Rite of Tranquility in DAO. That's the reason, my characters mostly help Jowan escape in the mage origin, because I think, it's a harsh treatment. I don't think, that tranquil are mindless or without own motivations, but without emotions, they lost a big part of their lifes and I personally rather live with my negative feelings like fear and anger, than giving them up. I don't think, that a knight commander or any other single person should decide about the rite of tranquility. The consequences are too big. If they relly have to hang on to this practise, they should have at least a trained commission to do the judging. My inqui never made anyone tranquil: Alexius has to work for the mages he wronged and the others get similar tasks, works fine for me. I think, the Chantry don't care about the hard cases: If Hawke send Feynriel to the Circle, as I know, we can see him at Gallows as tranquil. Of course he seems very "satisfied"... just as Karl – before Justice's "tuch". They are not mindless, they able to logical thinking, their memory still works, they remember to all thing, what happened in their life before and after tranquility. Only those memories are already meaningless for them (except their studies, this is why the tranquils so focused and useful). This is... unthinkable. I admit, I'm not that merciful, my Trevelyans tranquilized Erimond (he may be useful, as he used the Grey Wardens, and no regrets), Lavellan and Adaars executed him. Of course Alexius not tranquilized; he working for the Inquisition.
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Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 7, 2017 23:39:16 GMT
To all appearances, he chose to not die at the price of becoming Tranquil. You didn't answer the question: should he not have been able to choose that? And you have to ignore some stuff to say that Tranquil are "puppets without will." Maddox chose to kill himself out of loyalty to his friend, and didn't repent of his decision even when its irrationality was thrown in his face by a guy you'd probably argue was his new master. The Tranquil in Asunder who confronts the party as they seek to destroy the phylacteries in White Spire decides not to interfere, and when Evangeline questions what's happening because it doesn't fit with her opinion of the Tranquil (which is exactly the same as yours) the Tranquil says "just because it's wiser to obey than not doesn't mean we don't have free will." I already wrote, what I think about this "free will". (I don't reject, that they have some "will", but this not same as an healthy, complete human's free will.) More than enough to say, that the writers are not consistent on this. The tranquils lose their emotions, because of the side effect of the Rite of Tranquility. To lose emotions much more –as I see–, that they can no longer cry, when they see a kitten, or to fall in love. Without emotions, the people don't have motivations, without motivations, they don't want anything, just survive, because of instinct. The writers probably can't imagine, how to live a human without emotions, or they saw, that have gone too far, and the tranquility succeed too unacceptable, and make the Seekers, Templars and finally the Chantry too evil, so they corrected... (Not really, I found the Inquisition's tranquil so pathetic: she said, that she remember, that before the tranquil have some hard times –she don't wanted to be tranquil, I suppose–, but now don't understand, why... ugh!) I agree that the Tranquil have more stunted and twisted emotions than removed emotions; that's been obvious since DA:O, when Owain said "the stockroom is familiar, I prefer to be here" when Wynne said she'd have removed the barrier she'd created in the Tower to allow him to escape the demons. But I'm pretty sure you've moved the goalpost a bit here: in the post I replied to you said that they were "puppets without will" who would serve any master and do whatever that master wanted. Not having the same kind of free will as a healthy person isn't exactly the same thing. And yet again you didn't answer the question that's the main point of all of this: if its either do this to someone or kill them, should Tranquility be off the table even if the person in question would prefer Tranquility to death?
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127
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18,242
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Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 0:43:06 GMT
I already wrote, what I think about this "free will". (I don't reject, that they have some "will", but this not same as an healthy, complete human's free will.) More than enough to say, that the writers are not consistent on this. The tranquils lose their emotions, because of the side effect of the Rite of Tranquility. To lose emotions much more –as I see–, that they can no longer cry, when they see a kitten, or to fall in love. Without emotions, the people don't have motivations, without motivations, they don't want anything, just survive, because of instinct. The writers probably can't imagine, how to live a human without emotions, or they saw, that have gone too far, and the tranquility succeed too unacceptable, and make the Seekers, Templars and finally the Chantry too evil, so they corrected... (Not really, I found the Inquisition's tranquil so pathetic: she said, that she remember, that before the tranquil have some hard times –she don't wanted to be tranquil, I suppose–, but now don't understand, why... ugh!) I agree that the Tranquil have more stunted and twisted emotions than removed emotions; that's been obvious since DA:O, when Owain said "the stockroom is familiar, I prefer to be here" when Wynne said she'd have removed the barrier she'd created in the Tower to allow him to escape the demons. But I'm pretty sure you've moved the goalpost a bit here: in the post I referred to you said that they were "puppets without will" who would serve any master and do whatever that master wanted. And yet again you didn't answer the question that's the main point of all of this: if its either do this to someone or kill them, should Tranquility be off the table even if the person in question would prefer Tranquility to death? "As a side effect, their emotional center is utterly removed" It means: no "twisted" emotions, rather no emotions... as i see. The emotions not only angry, sadness, happiness and love. The emotions is motivations. Why a people, who lost his emotions want to go anywhere, want to make anything? If not because they have some simple survival instinct? No desire to starting anything, no satifaction, if they finished a work, achieved a result; these are all emotions, what –remember– UTTERLY REMOVED... I accept, the writers are not consistent. Hard question kill or tranquilize them. I think, none of these, rather help them. These are frightened people. Some Circle Mages are believe, that their abilityes is a curse. This is not official doctrine, but for example Meredith said often, and I think, she wasn't alone. Remember: in the Inquisition Trevelyan Inquisitor also surprised, when Giselle said, that the magic can be benefit. So: ofc, some Circle Mages will choose the tranquil, because feel guilty. But most of mages horrified, when see a tranquil. Why, if become tranquil is a blessing? They don't see, how happy the tranquils? They are idiots? Why they think, that the tranquilizing is bad, if they meet them every day. But okay, be right: if someone really wants this position, the let it be. Probably not that bad thing... I'm for free will always!
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Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 8, 2017 1:15:11 GMT
I agree that the Tranquil have more stunted and twisted emotions than removed emotions; that's been obvious since DA:O, when Owain said "the stockroom is familiar, I prefer to be here" when Wynne said she'd have removed the barrier she'd created in the Tower to allow him to escape the demons. But I'm pretty sure you've moved the goalpost a bit here: in the post I referred to you said that they were "puppets without will" who would serve any master and do whatever that master wanted. And yet again you didn't answer the question that's the main point of all of this: if its either do this to someone or kill them, should Tranquility be off the table even if the person in question would prefer Tranquility to death? Hard question kill or tranquilize them. I think, none of these, rather help them. These are frightened people. Some Circle Mages are believe, that their abilityes is a curse. This is not official doctrine, but for example Meredith said often, and I think, she wasn't alone. Remember: in the Inquisition Trevelyan Inquisitor also surprised, when Giselle said, that the magic can be benefit. So: ofc, some Circle Mages will choose the tranquil, because feel guilty. But most of mages horrified, when see a tranquil. Why, if become tranquil is a blessing? They don't see, how happ y the tranquils? They are idiots? Why they think, that the tranquilizing is bad, if they meet them every day. But okay, be right: if someone really wants this position, the let it be. Probably not that bad thing... I'm for free will always! In the Circle as it was originally envisioned, at least, Tranquility seems to have been meant for those who couldn't be helped, and who couldn't otherwise be made safe to be around except by killing them. Those who the instructors can't coax enough power to resist the demons out of, or who aren't even listening to the instructors. Some of them are probably sort of like Keili from the Ferelden Circle, and maybe some of those who are can be helped. But you seem to assume that all the mages who the Circles Tranquilize can be helped. Why? What makes you so sure everyone can be helped, or is even willing to accept help? I'd be happy to take a third option where it's available, but you seem to be more confident that there always is than you really have evidence for.
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