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Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 1:55:56 GMT
Hard question kill or tranquilize them. I think, none of these, rather help them. These are frightened people. Some Circle Mages are believe, that their abilityes is a curse. This is not official doctrine, but for example Meredith said often, and I think, she wasn't alone. Remember: in the Inquisition Trevelyan Inquisitor also surprised, when Giselle said, that the magic can be benefit. So: ofc, some Circle Mages will choose the tranquil, because feel guilty. But most of mages horrified, when see a tranquil. Why, if become tranquil is a blessing? They don't see, how happ y the tranquils? They are idiots? Why they think, that the tranquilizing is bad, if they meet them every day. But okay, be right: if someone really wants this position, the let it be. Probably not that bad thing... I'm for free will always! In the Circle as it was originally envisioned, at least, Tranquility seems to have been meant for those who couldn't be helped, and who couldn't otherwise be made safe to be around except by killing them. Those who the instructors can't coax enough power to resist the demons out of, or who aren't even listening to the instructors. Some of them are probably sort of like Keili from the Ferelden Circle, and maybe some of those who are can be helped. But you seem to assume that all the mages who the Circles Tranquilize can be helped. Why? What makes you so sure everyone can be helped, or is even willing to accept help? I'd be happy to take a third option where it's available, but you seem to be more confident that there always is than you really have evidence for. Many mages prefer the death, until they able to decide. (For example Bethany) I'm for the free will, if they want to be tranquil, let it be, I said. Only I don't think, that is good, benefit, blessing or mercy. This is terrible. But true: nice, silent solution, and the result: useful workers, who prefer the obey.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 8, 2017 7:35:33 GMT
In the Circle as it was originally envisioned, at least, Tranquility seems to have been meant for those who couldn't be helped, and who couldn't otherwise be made safe to be around except by killing them. Those who the instructors can't coax enough power to resist the demons out of, or who aren't even listening to the instructors. Some of them are probably sort of like Keili from the Ferelden Circle, and maybe some of those who are can be helped. But you seem to assume that all the mages who the Circles Tranquilize can be helped. Why? What makes you so sure everyone can be helped, or is even willing to accept help? I'd be happy to take a third option where it's available, but you seem to be more confident that there always is than you really have evidence for. Many mages prefer the death, until they able to decide. (For example Bethany) I'm for the free will, if they want to be tranquil, let it be, I said. Only I don't think, that is good, benefit, blessing or mercy. This is terrible. But true: nice, silent solution, and the result: useful workers, who prefer the obey. Okay, but this doesn't actually answer what I typed. To repeat the question: you say that instead of either killing or Tranquilizing the mages who aren't safe to be around, the mages should be helped. How do you think this should be done, what makes you think the mages (if not the Templars) aren't already doing whatever you suggest, and how are you sure that this will entirely prevent it ever coming to the choice of either killing or Tranquilizing the mage?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 8, 2017 11:27:12 GMT
We had an odd situation with Feynriel. You had to make the right dialogue choices for him to have the confidence to deal with his special dreamer powers. Then he was perfectly okay. If you chose wrong, then he was still terrified of the demons that were tormenting him and begged you to end it. Trouble was that killing him the Fade didn't kill him in real life, it only made him tranquil. So it was hard to see what he was agreeing to since presumably he didn't know that killing him in the Fade would not result in death and I don't recall that we explained it to him before doing so.
Still Feynriel does highlight the problem with using the Rite of Tranquility as a mercy for mages who are afraid of their powers. Because of the attitudes towards magic, the Fade and spirits in the southern Circles, any young mage who struggles to control the powers is naturally going to be terrified of possession and also of undertaking the Harrowing, knowing it could result in their death. They might well agree to tranquillity, seeing it as a way out because they don't want to die. They might well look at a tranquil and see how calm and at peace they are. So their emotions will have been manipulated into seeing it as a better alternative to death, when what they really need is to have confidence in their abilities rather than regarding them as a curse.
Naturally a strong mage is going to regard the Rite as an easy way out for all concerned when they baulk at actually killing the person. I suppose what the debate is really about is whether stripping them of emotions amounts to the same thing. As for restoring a tranquil, that is even more difficult. Since they have no emotions on which to judge the issue, are they not likely to opt to remain in the state they are in? So in reversing the procedure, are you forcing something on them that they haven't chosen for themselves? I am talking here about someone who chose/requested to be made tranquil in the first place, not someone like Jowan or Karl who had it forced upon them.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 13:42:06 GMT
We had an odd situation with Feynriel. You had to make the right dialogue choices for him to have the confidence to deal with his special dreamer powers. Then he was perfectly okay. If you chose wrong, then he was still terrified of the demons that were tormenting him and begged you to end it. Trouble was that killing him the Fade didn't kill him in real life, it only made him tranquil. So it was hard to see what he was agreeing to since presumably he didn't know that killing him in the Fade would not result in death and I don't recall that we explained it to him before doing so. Still Feynriel does highlight the problem with using the Rite of Tranquility as a mercy for mages who are afraid of their powers. Because of the attitudes towards magic, the Fade and spirits in the southern Circles, any young mage who struggles to control the powers is naturally going to be terrified of possession and also of undertaking the Harrowing, knowing it could result in their death. They might well agree to tranquillity, seeing it as a way out because they don't want to die. They might well look at a tranquil and see how calm and at peace they are. So their emotions will have been manipulated into seeing it as a better alternative to death, when what they really need is to have confidence in their abilities rather than regarding them as a curse. Naturally a strong mage is going to regard the Rite as an easy way out for all concerned when they baulk at actually killing the person. I suppose what the debate is really about is whether stripping them of emotions amounts to the same thing. As for restoring a tranquil, that is even more difficult. Since they have no emotions on which to judge the issue, are they not likely to opt to remain in the state they are in? So in reversing the procedure, are you forcing something on them that they haven't chosen for themselves? I am talking here about someone who chose/requested to be made tranquil in the first place, not someone like Jowan or Karl who had it forced upon them. As I saw, if Hawke refuse sloth demon immediately and/or do not choose the middle answer (not directly "this is a demon", nor "believe it!"), Feynriel terrified at the moment, when he awakened, but Hawke can convince him, and everyone are happy (Varric questioned, when Feynriel asked for death/tranquility: really need this? – or something similar.) If Hawke deal with sloth demon, and accept its offer, but at the end warn Feynriel and kill the demon and /or choose the middle answer "think about...", Feynriel don't ask for the death/tranquility, and finally he understand, why so dangerous his talent. In this case Feynriel seems more confident. (Varric is satisfied with result, and tell something about that Feynriel not that little, crying boy, who was before, he maybe ready.) After Torpor and/or the good choices seems Feynriel got more experience in the Fade (Harrowing?). The tranquils, because of their mind state, I suppose never (rarely?) will choose the reversion. We have seen: none of them understand why they was afraid of the tranquility before. Even Karl. Let's see him: we know, when he got a piece of Fade by Justice, he regained himself, and he asked for the death, because he "never will whole again", so: he probably could choose the reversion in his normal mind state, but as tranquil? Definitely not. I said: the writers isn't consistent: or you think, Karl willingly BETRAYED Anders, because he never agreed him, and never loves him, his letters was only bait, and willingly accepts the Templars' opinion, that Anders better as tranquil? And when Justice bring "a piece of Fade" to him, he lied to Anders, that he don't want to be the puppet of the Templars again? That would very interesting. So, which is the ethical decision: reverse the tranquility against the tranquil's "free will", or accept the tranquil's "free will", and leave him/her in peace?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 9, 2017 12:00:41 GMT
The tranquils, because of their mind state, I suppose never (rarely?) will choose the reversion. We have seen: none of them understand why they was afraid of the tranquility before. Even Karl. Let's see him: we know, when he got a piece of Fade by Justice, he regained himself, and he asked for the death, because he "never will whole again", so: he probably could choose the reversion in his normal mind state, but as tranquil? Definitely not. Except that considering what happened with Pharamond, we can't be sure that what we see in DA2 was Karl truly regaining himself. If it wasn't, then that further complicates the ethical question of what the Tranquil's "free will" is by adding another thing that we need to argue about. Yeah, they definitely aren't being consistent. What I think happened there was the writers being a bit better with the "literally no emotions" thing than they are in most other cases (though he's still not a drooling husk,) and then the writers foreshadowing the both the Tranquility cure and the instability that it creates... though I don't think they'd decided where the Seekers got their powers yet, or else this probably would have been permanent. Still Feynriel does highlight the problem with using the Rite of Tranquility as a mercy for mages who are afraid of their powers. Because of the attitudes towards magic, the Fade and spirits in the southern Circles, any young mage who struggles to control the powers is naturally going to be terrified of possession and also of undertaking the Harrowing, knowing it could result in their death. They might well agree to tranquillity, seeing it as a way out because they don't want to die. They might well look at a tranquil and see how calm and at peace they are. So their emotions will have been manipulated into seeing it as a better alternative to death, when what they really need is to have confidence in their abilities rather than regarding them as a curse. Okay, but this raises the same question I had for Catilina: what do we do about mages whom the instructors have tried to build up, but whose power, confidence, or control (or some of all of these) is lacking despite the senior mages' best efforts? So, which is the ethical decision: reverse the tranquility against the tranquil's "free will", or accept the tranquil's "free will", and leave him/her in peace? I'd argue that it's to accept the Tranquil's "free will." Restoring the Tranquil's emotions makes them overly emotional in a way that's not healthy even in mundanes. In a mage it's flatly dangerous, since they could attack someone, or lose control of their powers, or go abomination. And what does the Tranquil really gain, apart from the ability to feel pain about Tranquility in retrospect? It's all loss for just about everyone else, and questionable gain for the person it's supposed to benefit.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 9, 2017 14:08:56 GMT
The tranquils, because of their mind state, I suppose never (rarely?) will choose the reversion. We have seen: none of them understand why they was afraid of the tranquility before. Even Karl. Let's see him: we know, when he got a piece of Fade by Justice, he regained himself, and he asked for the death, because he "never will whole again", so: he probably could choose the reversion in his normal mind state, but as tranquil? Definitely not. Except that considering what happened with Pharamond, we can't be sure that what we see in DA2 was Karl truly regaining himself. If it wasn't, then that further complicates the ethical question of what the Tranquil's "free will" is by adding another thing that we need to argue about. Yeah, they definitely aren't being consistent. What I think happened there was the writers being a bit better with the "literally no emotions" thing than they are in most other cases (though he's still not a drooling husk,) and then the writers foreshadowing the both the Tranquility cure and the instability that it creates... though I don't think they'd decided where the Seekers got their powers yet, or else this probably would have been permanent. Still Feynriel does highlight the problem with using the Rite of Tranquility as a mercy for mages who are afraid of their powers. Because of the attitudes towards magic, the Fade and spirits in the southern Circles, any young mage who struggles to control the powers is naturally going to be terrified of possession and also of undertaking the Harrowing, knowing it could result in their death. They might well agree to tranquillity, seeing it as a way out because they don't want to die. They might well look at a tranquil and see how calm and at peace they are. So their emotions will have been manipulated into seeing it as a better alternative to death, when what they really need is to have confidence in their abilities rather than regarding them as a curse. Okay, but this raises the same question I had for Catilina: what do we do about mages whom the instructors have tried to build up, but whose power, confidence, or control (or some of all of these) is lacking despite the senior mages' best efforts? So, which is the ethical decision: reverse the tranquility against the tranquil's "free will", or accept the tranquil's "free will", and leave him/her in peace? I'd argue that it's to accept the Tranquil's "free will." Restoring the Tranquil's emotions makes them overly emotional in a way that's not healthy even in mundanes. In a mage it's flatly dangerous, since they could attack someone, or lose control of their powers, or go abomination. And what does the Tranquil really gain, apart from the ability to feel pain about Tranquility in retrospect? It's all loss for just about everyone else, and questionable gain for the person it's supposed to benefit. I think, in the writer's (David Gayder?) mind the "emotional center is utterly removed" means that we received a people with crystal clear logic, who only be a little weird (as Vulcans in the Star Trek), but they wrong (Vulcans have emotions). So we have two options: the first version is true, or the second version is true. Both can not be true (my opinion). Karl wasn't "overly emotional", when Justice's "tuch" restored his mind state for a while, only as far, as we would expect from a result of such an experience. He was surprised and enthusiastic but was able to logical thinking (he answered Hawke's question logically). True: I don't know the seekers' method's results and effects, but I can imagine, they still in the beginning of the research. I'm not sure I talked about to release a bunch of raging crazies into society, I talked about, that if they eliminated the supposed side effect, and the tranquil got back his/her normal mind state, would it be ethical to perform the process of reverse against the tranquils "free will", or leave them "in peace", against their free will by normal mind state? What they can do with the impossible cases? Kill them! Too ruthless? Probably, but killing anyone harder. That seems too "final", but the tranquils seems "happy", "satisfied", perhaps not that bad... and how useful: focused and obey! And suggest by Chantry: this is a mercyful solution (Elthina), so feel free to use without remorse. So: I'd rather with the idea, that the tranquility a preventive solution must be banned, because too big temptation to use in the hard cases (cf. blood magic). (And why forbidden to talk about the process? – this probably terrible cruel.)
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 11, 2017 12:05:30 GMT
Except that considering what happened with Pharamond, we can't be sure that what we see in DA2 was Karl truly regaining himself. If it wasn't, then that further complicates the ethical question of what the Tranquil's "free will" is by adding another thing that we need to argue about. Yeah, they definitely aren't being consistent. What I think happened there was the writers being a bit better with the "literally no emotions" thing than they are in most other cases (though he's still not a drooling husk,) and then the writers foreshadowing the both the Tranquility cure and the instability that it creates... though I don't think they'd decided where the Seekers got their powers yet, or else this probably would have been permanent. Okay, but this raises the same question I had for Catilina: what do we do about mages whom the instructors have tried to build up, but whose power, confidence, or control (or some of all of these) is lacking despite the senior mages' best efforts? I'd argue that it's to accept the Tranquil's "free will." Restoring the Tranquil's emotions makes them overly emotional in a way that's not healthy even in mundanes. In a mage it's flatly dangerous, since they could attack someone, or lose control of their powers, or go abomination. And what does the Tranquil really gain, apart from the ability to feel pain about Tranquility in retrospect? It's all loss for just about everyone else, and questionable gain for the person it's supposed to benefit. I think, in the writer's (David Gayder?) mind the "emotional center is utterly removed" means that we received a people with crystal clear logic, who only be a little weird (as Vulcans in the Star Trek), but they wrong (Vulcans have emotions). So we have two options: the first version is true, or the second version is true. Both can not be true (my opinion). Well, I'm not sure we've ever gotten that "crystal clear logic." I'm sure you're right that that's what he's going for, but Maddox's decision to kill himself rather than surrender to the Inquisition was a bit questionable. Maybe he was afraid of torture, but the logical thing to do is arguably to give in as quickly as you can and tell them everything. (Unless the people you're afraid of being tortured by are Cullen, Josephine, a non-hardened Leiliana, and an Inquisitor who didn't harden her, and then why are you worrying about torture?) I haven't played the game and this isn't a point vital enough to my argument that I feel the need to watch the scene on Youtube, so I'll defer to your judgement here. Okay, that is a harder question. If the Tranquil was Tranquil'd as a preventive measure because they wouldn't or couldn't control their powers, I wouldn't let the Tranquility be undone. (That probably shouldn't need to be said, but I'm saying it anyway.) Otherwise. I'd probably let the Tranquil decide for themself, since it's their mind and they're in a mental state that's supposed to lend itself to good decision-making. Not least because I don't know that a Tranquil I fix is going to be glad I did so even with their emotions returned. Not everything Tranquility removes is fun to have. This one's a bit speculative, but: while those who use Tranquility believe in an afterlife (since they're the Chantry) we haven't seen any actual proof that there is one. We know from multiple sources that the souls of the dead go into the Fade, and not even the spirits know where they go from there. Maybe into complete oblivion? Not much isn't merciful next to that. Beyond that, why do we have to choose between the Circle abusing Tranquility, and the Circle not having it open as an option? If the Knight-Commanders are kept honest and forced to get the First Enchanter's permission before Tranquilizing someone the way they were already supposed to, this and many of the other problems with the Circle suddenly seem a lot less insurmountable. Everyone I've ever heard complaining about Tranquility complains about the results. We know the process is painful from the Journal Of The Tranquil Codex Entry, but if the process was anything like as horrible as people think the result is you'd expect people to complain about that part too. Especially Pharamond, who knows he's going to go through it again. Certainly I don't think it's secret because the process is torturous enough to put anyone off who wouldn't have been put off already. I think it's more likely that it's kept secret because the Chantry and the Templar order don't want anyone else to know how to do it; we know they control who knows what about magic to keep power out of the wrong hands, and while I think people are exaggerating how bad this process is and advocate for its use when the alternative is worse I agree that this is a pretty nasty technique that we don't want the carta or the Coterie knowing how to pull off. I think the secrecy might also be because of the old agreement between the First Inquisition and the Chantry which led to the Circles knowing how to Tranquil people at all; as I understand it Jaws of Hakkon establishes that the First Inquisition viewed Tranquility as sacred and gave the Circles the secret because they thought it would save a whole bunch of lives. If I were giving up something like that I'd try to prevent the knowledge from spreading farther than intended. Why couldn't the Inquisition have done so?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 11, 2017 12:21:33 GMT
I haven't played the game and this isn't a point vital enough to my argument that I feel the need to watch the scene on Youtube, so I'll defer to your judgement here. Karl's reaction (sarcastic and diplomatic version)
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Post by Catilina on Jan 11, 2017 14:05:17 GMT
I think, in the writer's (David Gayder?) mind the "emotional center is utterly removed" means that we received a people with crystal clear logic, who only be a little weird (as Vulcans in the Star Trek), but they wrong (Vulcans have emotions). So we have two options: the first version is true, or the second version is true. Both can not be true (my opinion). Well, I'm not sure we've ever gotten that "crystal clear logic." I'm sure you're right that that's what he's going for, but Maddox's decision to kill himself rather than surrender to the Inquisition was a bit questionable. Maybe he was afraid of torture, but the logical thing to do is arguably to give in as quickly as you can and tell them everything. (Unless the people you're afraid of being tortured by are Cullen, Josephine, a non-hardened Leiliana, and an Inquisitor who didn't harden her, and then why are you worrying about torture?) I haven't played the game and this isn't a point vital enough to my argument that I feel the need to watch the scene on Youtube, so I'll defer to your judgement here. Okay, that is a harder question. If the Tranquil was Tranquil'd as a preventive measure because they wouldn't or couldn't control their powers, I wouldn't let the Tranquility be undone. (That probably shouldn't need to be said, but I'm saying it anyway.) Otherwise. I'd probably let the Tranquil decide for themself, since it's their mind and they're in a mental state that's supposed to lend itself to good decision-making. Not least because I don't know that a Tranquil I fix is going to be glad I did so even with their emotions returned. Not everything Tranquility removes is fun to have. This one's a bit speculative, but: while those who use Tranquility believe in an afterlife (since they're the Chantry) we haven't seen any actual proof that there is one. We know from multiple sources that the souls of the dead go into the Fade, and not even the spirits know where they go from there. Maybe into complete oblivion? Not much isn't merciful next to that. Beyond that, why do we have to choose between the Circle abusing Tranquility, and the Circle not having it open as an option? If the Knight-Commanders are kept honest and forced to get the First Enchanter's permission before Tranquilizing someone the way they were already supposed to, this and many of the other problems with the Circle suddenly seem a lot less insurmountable. Everyone I've ever heard complaining about Tranquility complains about the results. We know the process is painful from the Journal Of The Tranquil Codex Entry, but if the process was anything like as horrible as people think the result is you'd expect people to complain about that part too. Especially Pharamond, who knows he's going to go through it again. Certainly I don't think it's secret because the process is torturous enough to put anyone off who wouldn't have been put off already. I think it's more likely that it's kept secret because the Chantry and the Templar order don't want anyone else to know how to do it; we know they control who knows what about magic to keep power out of the wrong hands, and while I think people are exaggerating how bad this process is and advocate for its use when the alternative is worse I agree that this is a pretty nasty technique that we don't want the carta or the Coterie knowing how to pull off. I think the secrecy might also be because of the old agreement between the First Inquisition and the Chantry which led to the Circles knowing how to Tranquil people at all; as I understand it Jaws of Hakkon establishes that the First Inquisition viewed Tranquility as sacred and gave the Circles the secret because they thought it would save a whole bunch of lives. If I were giving up something like that I'd try to prevent the knowledge from spreading farther than intended. Why couldn't the Inquisition have done so? I don't think, that Maddox fear from the torture (but not exlude, if the red templars used this tool). I think, the writers wanted to show, that Maddox is loyal. (Inquisitor –or Cullen?– can mention this during the judgement.) But this is bullshit weird without emotions. They are able to decide about simple LOGICAL things, but in their mind state they don't miss their own emotions. They consider the emotions unnecessary/disturbing things. This is why I suppose, that they aren't able to make a proper decision in this issue. They don't understand the emotions. This is the reason, that this question is interesting. They would decide othervise in their normal mind state, as whole person. (I think, that the fact, the bad feelings are exist, not means, that better to live without any feelings.) Probably speculative, what I wrote, yes. Becaise I'm sure, that the Knight Commanders, and sometimes the First Enchanters too, abuses with the tranquility. It's just too easy solution for the problem, and approved by Chantry as merciful. You can't trust the people, who have power over others without any kind of supervision and retaliation. But suppose that they are "fair", and performes the ritual only in the important cases or if the mages ask/beg for it: the Journal Of The Tranquil shows us, that why unacceptable to use the tranquil as preventive solution, and accept the ask for tranquil without serious ethical question: that mge in the codex was terrified and misinformed. NOBODY tryed to convince him, that his talent is NOT a curse. This is a terrible sin. This was not really his will; this was his fear from the Harrowing. This what I said: The Circle never ever try to deal with the hard cases (okay, perhaps sometimes, if really exist a merciful Knight Commander.) I think, they were very satisfied, when they performed the ritual on this poor mage, because he seemed satisfied too, and they can feel themselves merciful. A corpse never give such a feeling (I don't speak about psychopaths). It does not matter whether they believe in life after death or not. The question, how to live without emotions? The life without emotions, worth it? About secrecy: True, I see your points. And: so good to keep secrets. The sacred secrets are mystical and sublime...
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Post by Iakus on Jan 11, 2017 20:40:47 GMT
I'd argue that it's to accept the Tranquil's "free will." Restoring the Tranquil's emotions makes them overly emotional in a way that's not healthy even in mundanes. In a mage it's flatly dangerous, since they could attack someone, or lose control of their powers, or go abomination. And what does the Tranquil really gain, apart from the ability to feel pain about Tranquility in retrospect? It's all loss for just about everyone else, and questionable gain for the person it's supposed to benefit. While I generally agree, I just want to point out that the one thing you wouldn't have to worry about with the mage is going abomination. Having been made Tranquil and restored, they are now technically a Seeker, and thus immune to demonic possession and blood magic. WHich is why if the emotional instability could be controlled, I think this ritual could potentially replace the Harrowing
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 11, 2017 20:50:32 GMT
I'd argue that it's to accept the Tranquil's "free will." Restoring the Tranquil's emotions makes them overly emotional in a way that's not healthy even in mundanes. In a mage it's flatly dangerous, since they could attack someone, or lose control of their powers, or go abomination. And what does the Tranquil really gain, apart from the ability to feel pain about Tranquility in retrospect? It's all loss for just about everyone else, and questionable gain for the person it's supposed to benefit. While I generally agree, I just want to point out that the one thing you wouldn't have to worry about with the mage is going abomination. Having been made Tranquil and restored, they are now technically a Seeker, and thus immune to demonic possession and blood magic. WHich is why if the emotional instability could be controlled, I think this ritual could potentially replace the Harrowing Do we know that works? I mean, it doesn't seem clear that mages would receive the same benefits and abilities as Seekers.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 11, 2017 20:55:21 GMT
While I generally agree, I just want to point out that the one thing you wouldn't have to worry about with the mage is going abomination. Having been made Tranquil and restored, they are now technically a Seeker, and thus immune to demonic possession and blood magic. WHich is why if the emotional instability could be controlled, I think this ritual could potentially replace the Harrowing Do we know that works? I mean, it doesn't seem clear that mages would receive the same benefits and abilities as Seekers. I don't see what it wouldn't work that way. Both the Rite, the effect, and the cure are the same. Shouldn't the results be as well?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 11, 2017 20:56:06 GMT
While I generally agree, I just want to point out that the one thing you wouldn't have to worry about with the mage is going abomination. Having been made Tranquil and restored, they are now technically a Seeker, and thus immune to demonic possession and blood magic. WHich is why if the emotional instability could be controlled, I think this ritual could potentially replace the Harrowing Do we know that works? I mean, it doesn't seem clear that mages would receive the same benefits and abilities as Seekers. I think, that this isn't excluded, but what about magical power? (And this ritual seems dangerous to apply to healthy people.)
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 11, 2017 21:00:19 GMT
Do we know that works? I mean, it doesn't seem clear that mages would receive the same benefits and abilities as Seekers. I don't see what it wouldn't work that way. Both the Rite, the effect, and the cure are the same. Shouldn't the results be as well? That mages have a stronger connection to the Fade to begin with makes me think there could be a difference. Wait, didn't Pharamond's attempt to cure himself end with him becoming an abomination?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 11, 2017 21:20:36 GMT
According to Pharamond he succeeded in restoring himself and then he became possessed. How great the gap was between one and the other is difficult to now but it certainly happened, so clearly being a restored tranquil is not the same as a Seeker and you are not immune to possession.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 11, 2017 21:46:42 GMT
I don't see what it wouldn't work that way. Both the Rite, the effect, and the cure are the same. Shouldn't the results be as well? That mages have a stronger connection to the Fade to begin with makes me think there could be a difference. Wait, didn't Pharamond's attempt to cure himself end with him becoming an abomination? Tranquil can still be possessed (there are possessed Tranquil in the Broken Circle quest in DAO). They just aren't very often because a demon doesn't sense them as a living thing and thus ignores them if there is anything living to possess. This is also the great difficulty in becoming a Seeker. One's faith has to be strong enough to draw a spirit to touching your mind even though the spirit doesn't recognize you as anything more interesting than a piece of furniture. But I believe that the mental contact in being possessed by the demon was what restored Pharamond's connection to the Fade. The demon was still in him, though. But once that was taken care of, no other demon could control him.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 12, 2017 1:37:53 GMT
According to Pharamond he succeeded in restoring himself and then he became possessed. How great the gap was between one and the other is difficult to now but it certainly happened, so clearly being a restored tranquil is not the same as a Seeker and you are not immune to possession. That, and because Cassandra (who you'd expect to know how Tranquility is performed) didn't recognize what happened to her as Tranquility. Probably partially because there's no lyrium brand and no sunburst scar. So whatever the Seekers do, there are differences between that and how the Circle does it. Whether those differences are what makes Cassandra immune to possession, or whether cured Tranquil are immune under all circumstances unless the spirit that cures them possesses them... well, the Circles should be looking into this (under very controlled circumstances, since as I understand it the party in Asunder found Pharamond by following the trail of bodies) but it's premature to make assumptions as to whether or not it would work the way we all want it to. Well, I'm not sure we've ever gotten that "crystal clear logic." I'm sure you're right that that's what he's going for, but Maddox's decision to kill himself rather than surrender to the Inquisition was a bit questionable. Maybe he was afraid of torture, but the logical thing to do is arguably to give in as quickly as you can and tell them everything. (Unless the people you're afraid of being tortured by are Cullen, Josephine, a non-hardened Leiliana, and an Inquisitor who didn't harden her, and then why are you worrying about torture?) I haven't played the game and this isn't a point vital enough to my argument that I feel the need to watch the scene on Youtube, so I'll defer to your judgement here. Okay, that is a harder question. If the Tranquil was Tranquil'd as a preventive measure because they wouldn't or couldn't control their powers, I wouldn't let the Tranquility be undone. (That probably shouldn't need to be said, but I'm saying it anyway.) Otherwise. I'd probably let the Tranquil decide for themself, since it's their mind and they're in a mental state that's supposed to lend itself to good decision-making. Not least because I don't know that a Tranquil I fix is going to be glad I did so even with their emotions returned. Not everything Tranquility removes is fun to have. This one's a bit speculative, but: while those who use Tranquility believe in an afterlife (since they're the Chantry) we haven't seen any actual proof that there is one. We know from multiple sources that the souls of the dead go into the Fade, and not even the spirits know where they go from there. Maybe into complete oblivion? Not much isn't merciful next to that. Beyond that, why do we have to choose between the Circle abusing Tranquility, and the Circle not having it open as an option? If the Knight-Commanders are kept honest and forced to get the First Enchanter's permission before Tranquilizing someone the way they were already supposed to, this and many of the other problems with the Circle suddenly seem a lot less insurmountable. Everyone I've ever heard complaining about Tranquility complains about the results. We know the process is painful from the Journal Of The Tranquil Codex Entry, but if the process was anything like as horrible as people think the result is you'd expect people to complain about that part too. Especially Pharamond, who knows he's going to go through it again. Certainly I don't think it's secret because the process is torturous enough to put anyone off who wouldn't have been put off already. I think it's more likely that it's kept secret because the Chantry and the Templar order don't want anyone else to know how to do it; we know they control who knows what about magic to keep power out of the wrong hands, and while I think people are exaggerating how bad this process is and advocate for its use when the alternative is worse I agree that this is a pretty nasty technique that we don't want the carta or the Coterie knowing how to pull off. I think the secrecy might also be because of the old agreement between the First Inquisition and the Chantry which led to the Circles knowing how to Tranquil people at all; as I understand it Jaws of Hakkon establishes that the First Inquisition viewed Tranquility as sacred and gave the Circles the secret because they thought it would save a whole bunch of lives. If I were giving up something like that I'd try to prevent the knowledge from spreading farther than intended. Why couldn't the Inquisition have done so? I don't think, that Maddox fear from the torture (but not exlude, if the red templars used this tool). I think, the writers wanted to show, that Maddox is loyal. (Inquisitor –or Cullen?– can mention this during the judgement.) But this is bullshit weird without emotions. Agreed. But how do we know this? We can hardly ask the Tranquil to tell us, because even if they can know what their other self would want, the logical way to get what the current them wants is to flatly tell the person asking that their "true" self won't thank them even if they know that the opposite is true. We could go with the assumption that their "true" self will thank us, but that is just an assumption. His talent is in many ways a curse. Nor is his simplistic opinion of his powers the reason he chose Tranquility. He was struggling in his lessons and knew he couldn't pass the Harrowing. Maybe his fear of magic was part of why he was struggling to master it, and if so I hope the teachers weren't failing to recognize that and were trying to help, but the fact remains that we can't be sure he was like Keili, who was quite open about the fact that she feared and hated her powers and by extension herself. (And damn did that girl need help.) And we can't be sure that Eddin the Meek (or Keili) could have been helped out of their fear of their powers. Eddin was clearly taking in that fear from a young age, after all. And if the Circles can't help, whether it's because the person is beyond help or because the setting's tenuous (at best) grasp of mental healthcare can't tell them how to help, we're back to the question of what they do instead. You seem to be arguing that they shouldn't have Tranquility, because they have it they'll be tempted to use it when they shouldn't. "When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail" as the saying goes? Well, for one thing, the "hammer" isn't all they have. They have mage teachers who try to be mentors. Wynne intimates to the Warden that some of the priests try too (and the ones who don't should be assigned elsewhere, because what good is a Circle priest who makes the mages feel worse?) And for another thing, if you give up the "hammer" to destroy the temptation to use it, what happens when the problem really is a "nail?" It's life, isn't it? The thing is, if you can't be sure if there's anything left after life, then the question is whether non-existence is preferable to an empty life. That's a hard question, and one I don't feel qualified to give one answer to. (Even if my answer would be that an empty life is still life.) That's why I'm arguing that a mage who would take Tranquility over death should be allowed to. Sometimes it's necessary to keep secrets. And surely you don't think this is one that everyone should know?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 12, 2017 2:14:34 GMT
But how do we know this? We can hardly ask the Tranquil to tell us, because even if they can know what their other self would want, the logical way to get what the current them wants is to flatly tell the person asking that their "true" self won't thank them even if they know that the opposite is true. We could go with the assumption that their "true" self will thank us, but that is just an assumption. His talent is in many ways a curse. Nor is his simplistic opinion of his powers the reason he chose Tranquility. He was struggling in his lessons and knew he couldn't pass the Harrowing. Maybe his fear of magic was part of why he was struggling to master it, and if so I hope the teachers weren't failing to recognize that and were trying to help, but the fact remains that we can't be sure he was like Keili, who was quite open about the fact that she feared and hated her powers and by extension herself. (And damn did that girl need help.) And we can't be sure that Eddin the Meek (or Keili) could have been helped out of their fear of their powers. Eddin was clearly taking in that fear from a young age, after all. And if the Circles can't help, whether it's because the person is beyond help or because the setting's tenuous (at best) grasp of mental healthcare can't tell them how to help, we're back to the question of what they do instead. You seem to be arguing that they shouldn't have Tranquility, because they have it they'll be tempted to use it when they shouldn't. "When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail" as the saying goes? Well, for one thing, the "hammer" isn't all they have. They have mage teachers who try to be mentors. Wynne intimates to the Warden that some of the priests try too (and the ones who don't should be assigned elsewhere, because what good is a Circle priest who makes the mages feel worse?) And for another thing, if you give up the "hammer" to destroy the temptation to use it, what happens when the problem really is a "nail?"It's life, isn't it? And if you can't be sure if there's anything left after life... Take them into the Fade? Use a domestic spirit/abomination (they occur in every Circle...)? This is a hard question, I said. But the tranquils aren't "whole person", and before tranquility they was "whole person". Perhaps this will help, but, still interesting question, because this imperfect person don't "want" to be whole person again. I already told you. Kill. As you said: the Rite of Tranquility is the Templars "hammer" ("blood magic"): a tool, what easily can solve the problems. Too hard to resist. Unstable person? Lets tranqulize! Wrote a letter? Let's tranquilize! Want to be free? Lets tranquilize! Rebel mage? Let's, tranquilize! Fear from magic? Let's tranquilize! Don't need to deal with the harder cases, because what happened in Circle, stay in Circle, and even so merciful. Okay, sometimes they can found 1-2 true dangerous case. I don't know, this is a life? A tranquil want to live, or just live, because don't know another way?
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Post by xerrai on Jan 12, 2017 2:47:29 GMT
Personally I am of the mind that while tranquility should still be an option, but it should be treated as a treatment just below a death sentence. Yet in the series we see it employed as a perceived "mercy" or as a form of corporal punishment for even some comparatively minor infractions (sending a letter? Really?).
They just really need to ramp up on the mandatory prerequisites before even considering tranquility as well as ramping up the punishment for those who seek to abuse it. Preferably I would have it issued only as a punishment while those who choose to undergo not undergo the harrowing are sent to a special circle that would accommodate them and their increased risk (sort of like the Ardat Yakshi Monastery in ME3). But forgoing that option on account of Thedas's mediocre knowledge on mental illness and the concerned parties simply not wanting to establish such a Circle....
I think mages should have the right to choose tranquility.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 12, 2017 2:56:41 GMT
Personally I am of the mind that while tranquility should still be an option, but it should be treated as a treatment just below a death sentence. Yet in the series we see it employed as a perceived "mercy" or as a form of corporal punishment for even some comparatively minor infractions (sending a letter? Really?). They just really need to ramp up on the mandatory prerequisites before even considering tranquility as well as ramping up the punishment for those who seek to abuse it. Preferably I would have it issued only as a punishment while those who choose to undergo not undergo the harrowing are sent to a special circle that would accommodate them and their increased risk (sort of like the Ardat Yakshi Monastery in ME3). But forgoing that option on account of Thedas's mediocre knowledge on mental illness and the concerned parties simply not wanting to establish such a Circle.... I think mages should have the right to choose tranquility.
You saw? You think, that this mage really was hopeless case? Or they were just lazy to care for him? This isn't that easy, as long as the Knight Commander not responsible for every mistake with his/her own life/emotion center.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 12, 2017 3:16:19 GMT
Personally I am of the mind that while tranquility should still be an option, but it should be treated as a treatment just below a death sentence. Yet in the series we see it employed as a perceived "mercy" or as a form of corporal punishment for even some comparatively minor infractions (sending a letter? Really?). They just really need to ramp up on the mandatory prerequisites before even considering tranquility as well as ramping up the punishment for those who seek to abuse it. Preferably I would have it issued only as a punishment while those who choose to undergo not undergo the harrowing are sent to a special circle that would accommodate them and their increased risk (sort of like the Ardat Yakshi Monastery in ME3). But forgoing that option on account of Thedas's mediocre knowledge on mental illness and the concerned parties simply not wanting to establish such a Circle.... I think mages should have the right to choose tranquility.
You saw? You think, that this mage really was hopeless case? Or they were just lazy to care for him? This isn't that easy, as long as the Knight Commander not responsible for every mistake with his/her own life/emotion center. Yes I saw. But it was either that or facing the Harrowing. A harrowing that Eddin doubted he would pass. So while not hopeless, the odds were certainly against him. If there was a third option, then odds are many mages would choose it. And if the third option was sufficient at caring for these mages who refuse to undertake the harrowing, then tranquility may be taken off the table entirely save for extreme circumstances. But as it is right now its either harrowing or tranquility, and I think mages in that situation should have the right to choose between dying by failing their harrowing or being made tranquil and dying only in spirit.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 12, 2017 3:34:42 GMT
You saw? You think, that this mage really was hopeless case? Or they were just lazy to care for him? This isn't that easy, as long as the Knight Commander not responsible for every mistake with his/her own life/emotion center. Yes I saw. But it was either that or facing the Harrowing. A harrowing that Eddin doubted he would pass. So while not hopeless, the odds were certainly against him. If there was a third option, then odds are many mages would choose it. And if the third option was sufficient at caring for these mages who refuse to undertake the harrowing, then tranquility may be taken off the table entirely save for extreme circumstances. But as it is right now its either harrowing or tranquility, and I think mages in that situation should have the right to choose between dying by failing their harrowing or being made tranquil and dying only in spirit. I just find it a wasted life (okay, "only" a wasted "soul"), because I don't saw, that they would try to convince him, that the magic isn't a curse. If I remember correctly, In the Ferelden Circle an apprentice to praying, she told some similar. This was so pathetic. (And the Ferelden Circle was a "good place"...) The problem is: there are no supervision over the Knight Commander. Yes, I agree with the other points.
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Post by lordofwar on Jan 12, 2017 3:53:31 GMT
Tranquility is effectively a living death anyway, so why bother with the choice?
The real problem is the Harrowing. It's not necessary, and it's a silly way to 'prepare' mages-throwing them in the frying pan after not preparing them in any way? Like many of the other problems with the Circle, it could be fixed (or significantly improved by) a more comprehensive and honest magical education, untainted by Chantry doctrine.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 12, 2017 9:02:19 GMT
Tranquility is effectively a living death anyway, so why bother with the choice? The real problem is the Harrowing. It's not necessary, and it's a silly way to 'prepare' mages-throwing them in the frying pan after not preparing them in any way? Like many of the other problems with the Circle, it could be fixed (or significantly improved by) a more comprehensive and honest magical education, untainted by Chantry doctrine. Okay, I know I've heard the accusation that the mages aren't prepared for their Harrowing in any way, but I don't remember anyone successfully backing that argument up. Where do you get that? What evidence do we have that the mages don't have at least some idea what do to in this situation? Yeah, we know they aren't told what the Harrowing is before they're sent to face it, but since we watch mages being taught to control their power in a way useful for combat, we know the mages have some lessons involving the Fade, and some mages actually survive the Harrowing I think we have better evidence that the mages are being trained in skills relevant to the Harrowing than that they aren't. Edit: As for why bother with the choice between death and living death... well, why not? The mage might have strong preferences one way or the other, and if someone strongly wants to not die I'm inclined to help them.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 12, 2017 9:08:54 GMT
Yes I saw. But it was either that or facing the Harrowing. A harrowing that Eddin doubted he would pass. So while not hopeless, the odds were certainly against him. If there was a third option, then odds are many mages would choose it. And if the third option was sufficient at caring for these mages who refuse to undertake the harrowing, then tranquility may be taken off the table entirely save for extreme circumstances. But as it is right now its either harrowing or tranquility, and I think mages in that situation should have the right to choose between dying by failing their harrowing or being made tranquil and dying only in spirit. I just find it a wasted life (okay, "only" a wasted "soul"), because I don't saw, that they would try to convince him, that the magic isn't a curse. If I remember correctly, In the Ferelden circle was an apprentice to praying, she told some similar. This was so pathetic. (And the Ferelden Circle was a "good place"...) The problem is: there are no supervision over the Knight Commander. Yes, I agree with the other points. There's other ways to solve the problem of there being no supervision over the Knight Commander, and the Knight Commander having no supervision is a problem in other ways too. Maybe instead of taking Tranquility off the table to solve this problem, we should try to find a way to make the KC more accountable? More direct supervision from the Seekers, a Seeker speaking privately with both the KC and the FE every so often, the KC and the FE each having a channel to the Seekers that the other can't monitor... Of course the Seekers will need to be kept under better watch, or else this comes to nothing too. Though I'd imagine Cassandra dropping a whole bunch of the secrets if she restarts the Seekers is a good step in that direction. And if she doesn't restart them... well, that complicates things. A lot of the good of the Seekers is the fact that they're a separate organization from the Templars, rather than a just a higher ranking group of Templars that the Templars answer to. A lot of the worst of the Seekers failures came from both groups forgetting that. And if the Seekers are a threat without proper supervision, removing them just means that the Templars aren't accountable to anyone even on paper. Personally I am of the mind that while tranquility should still be an option, but it should be treated as a treatment just below a death sentence. Yet in the series we see it employed as a perceived "mercy" or as a form of corporal punishment for even some comparatively minor infractions (sending a letter? Really?). They just really need to ramp up on the mandatory prerequisites before even considering tranquility as well as ramping up the punishment for those who seek to abuse it. Preferably I would have it issued only as a punishment while those who choose to undergo not undergo the harrowing are sent to a special circle that would accommodate them and their increased risk (sort of like the Ardat Yakshi Monastery in ME3). But forgoing that option on account of Thedas's mediocre knowledge on mental illness and the concerned parties simply not wanting to establish such a Circle.... I think mages should have the right to choose tranquility. I feel like I should point out that it's just one Circle that we know of that Tranquilized mages for sending letters, and that even their Knight-Captain, who was traumatized by blood mages and demons, later acknowledges their Knight-Commander was out of control. Even Chantry faithful have the option to ask why the hell Maddox was Tranquil'd over something that small. In summary, I don't think we're supposed to understand that that's the way that usually works. Beyond that... the "separate Circle for mages who know they can't pass the Harrowing" thing seems really dangerous, and really expensive. The expense isn't enough that I'd shoot this plan down, but the danger? This is a facility that houses all of the mages who can't defend themselves from the demons that want to possess them and turn them into super-monsters. The Ardat-Yakshi Monastery works because the Ardat-Yakshi have to choose to become monsters. Mages don't. Especially not weak mages. And the monster a weak mage can become whether or not they choose it is dangerous even to the people specifically trained and equipped to handle that shit. Something like this is just asking for problems. And that doesn't include the danger of transporting mages who haven't passed their Harrowing. Unless the Circles figure out how to use Eluvians (and while I'm nervous about the ones who already control magic getting that power it'd be nice if someone who wasn't in some way a maniac had it) moving mages is still going to be expensive, and moving mages who aren't Harrowed will be dangerous.
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