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Post by Sah291 on Aug 3, 2016 0:58:39 GMT
Mages, because my canon Warden was Amell, who wanted to free the Circle and tried to improve things with the mage boon after defeating the archdemon.
Then when I learned Hawke was related to the Amell Warden in DA2, I wanted to carry that world state and narrative on, so Hawke became pro mage as well.
Naturally, when I got to DAI, I wanted to finish what Hawke started and, so allied with the rebel mages. Quizzy was a Dalish elf, and it just seemed logical to go hear Fiona out, after it appeared the Templars weren't going to cooperate.
So yeah my canon world state is very pro mage, mostly for story and meta reasons.
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 3, 2016 2:00:57 GMT
I figure I'll go ahead and preempt a discussion devolving into this. Why do you side with one side or the other? Are there aspects to the plotlines you felt needed work in DA:I? Let's try and keep this at least remotely civil. I remember an old thread I started way back in the day on the BioWare forums that more or less discussed this, using Anders as the POV character point, is Ander's a Terrorist or Freedom Fighter, and do you condemn his actions or justify them? Basically, it boils down to perception that way. We can see mages as the oppressed minority, or we can see Templars as an exacerbated force, and we see how both sides get pushed to their limit because of these fundamental differences. The post went something like this: This served as a good framework for your question. Basically, are mages oppressed, or are templars stigmatized and marginalized because of their position? There is no big evil here that makes this clear. Now me personally, I went with mages more than templars in most of my playthroughs, but there are times where I am very sympathetic from a RP standpoint with the Templars' problems, so it really does depend on the character and their perception.
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Post by Sah291 on Aug 3, 2016 2:47:44 GMT
linksocarina, To me, I think it is really a bit of both. One of the things I thought DA2 showed well was the whole push and pull of opposing parties and the way things escalate. It's like a pendulum swinging back and forth. Andrastianism started as a slave rebellion against imperial Tevinter mages, who abused blood magic and enslaved people. They were justified, no? Mages, fearful of the masses and angry mobs, went underground and formed the Circle system, under the protection of the Chantry and Templars. Eventually the Circles turned into something more like a prison, and Templars more like jailers. They became oppressed by their own system. But everytime some blood mage somewhere would do something crazy, the more afraid of mages people would get, and the more justified the Templars felt in their crack downs. And so on, back and forth, until both sides became increasingly extreme out of desperation. Meanwhile, there was the Chantry, who had the power and authority to actually mediate and compromise, but ultimately refused to. But even then, a sympathetic Divine could only do so much, no matter how reasonable it might be, because there were a thousand years of tradition against it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2016 2:55:49 GMT
It depends on what character I'm playing - though I mostly play mages, and as such they're going to tend to be more sympathetic to the mage cause/mage freedom.
In Origins, I played a Surana, so she wasn't necessarily sympathetic to the Templars, but she knew how dangerous the mages could be. She respected both Gregoir and Irving despite what happened to her and wanted to save as many people as she could. And she did, everyone who was there she could save she did save.
In DA2 my Hawke was a mage, so she was also sympathetic to the mage cause, but could not countenance what Anders did to the Chantry, and ultimately shanked him.
In DA:I my rogue Lavellan recruited the mages because she thought their power would help, but my mage Lavellan went to the templars because she thought that what the Breach needed was to be stabilized, not more magic dumped into it. She also conscripted them because while the order was needed, it also needed to be rebuilt from the bottom up. My other playthroughs so far, have operated on similar logic.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 3, 2016 3:03:44 GMT
Always the mages (except once each game to experience different content and then only with an devout Andrastian character). Reason?
Removing freedom for the sake of safety just doesn't sit right with me. I am all for putting down mages that show themselves to be dangerous and unrepentant for their actions, but until proven guilty, they are all innocent.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 3, 2016 7:56:28 GMT
I helped mages in DAO, sided with the templars in DA2 and allied with the mage rebellion in DAI.
My canon Warden is Surana. He was tempted to let the Circle burn, but I hated Cullen so having to choose between the lesser evils I chose the mages. In DA2 I played lawful & religious Hawke and supported the templars. He was always seeking for ways to gain more power and influence in Kirkwall, so siding with the templars also happened to be more beneficial (they made him viscount of Kirkwall, after all!)
First time I played DAI I had decided I wanted to romance Dorian first so I sided with the mages just to get him as soon as possible. I loved epic time travel and crazy drama with Alexius, Felix and Leliana in IHW. My canon Inquisitor (a dalish mage herself) supported mage freedom from the start.
In the end if I had to choose a side I would side with the mages. In a banter with Vivienne Solas remarks that 'your Circle was a tightly clamped lid on a boiling pot. It held for awhile, and unless you looked inside, it all seemed fine. Then, everyone feigned surprise when it finally burst!' I got to agree with Solas it does seem like the Circle as it was did more harm than good.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Aug 3, 2016 8:20:47 GMT
Mages, because they're trammeled at every turn even if they toe the line.
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Post by The Elder King on Aug 3, 2016 10:13:37 GMT
I'm fairly neutral to the two sides. In DAI all the choices Are fairly equal. Without metagaming, it's just a choice of which side my character think will be more useful, and need first. Thankfully the choice was better handled then in DA2.
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Post by PhroX on Aug 3, 2016 15:50:21 GMT
I've played characters that have gone with pretty much all the options over the course of the three games (allying with mages in DA:I is the only one I can't remember doing - my pro-mage Inquisitor's all lost any trust for Fiona and co due to the whole Tevinter thing), but for my "most canon" playthrough:
Warden sided with the mages. She didn't have any particular love for magic, not did she completely trust that they were "clean", but when it comes to stopping the Blight, the impact of trained mages in battle is massive, and even if they are possessed, as long as they hurl some fireballs at darkspawn before they go all abomination, then she's happy
Hawke was generally sympathetic towards mages (though very hostile to blood magic), but events over the course of the game (such as his mother's death) shifted him more towards a "damn them both" attitude. In the end, having to make a choice in the heat of the moment, Anders' actions pushed him into siding with the Templars for the finale.
My Inquisitor, being an elven mage, was always going to side with the mages over the Templars. She sure as hell didn't trust them though, and didn't hesitate to conscript the rebels. No-one who sides with Tevinter deserves the respect of an alliance. However her early position was actually pretty pro-circle: while a properly trained Dalish mage didn't need to be watched over, humans (and elves trained by them) with magic were downright dangerous. That said, she certainly mellowed on this over the course of the game, at least somewhat overcoming the prejudices inherent in her upbringing (helped by her discovery that her people's history that she so revered was actually a pile of crap) and realising that there really aren't any significant difference between elves and humans outside of one having pointy ears (though said earlier attitude, combined with an indifference to the internal politics of the Chantry, actually lead to Viv being made Divine [which was not intentional on my part]...).
As for my personal position, well, I kinda lean towards Sera's position of being stuck in the middle with everyone else. I would say I'm a bit more favourable towards mages than templars, but given the massive issues of widespread class and race based discrimination and inequality across Andrastean Thedas, I feel the obsession, both in game and amongst fans, with the mages/templar issues to be somewhat excessive.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Aug 3, 2016 17:33:32 GMT
Sided with the mages in DAO and DA2, also. Except on my very first run of Origins, where I meant to side with the mages but accidentally sided with the Templars. Oops.Wow. Bet that was a shock when it played out.
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Post by vertigomez on Aug 3, 2016 18:12:18 GMT
Sided with the mages in DAO and DA2, also. Except on my very first run of Origins, where I meant to side with the mages but accidentally sided with the Templars. Oops.Wow. Bet that was a shock when it played out. Not shocking so much as baffling. I told Cullen and Wynne I was going to save the mages and cleared the tower and felt pretty great about it! But whenever I'd ask Wynne about the Circle she'd get all mopey... and I asked for help for Dagna's quest and Greagoir damn near bit my head off. Turns out I failed to loot Niall's body so I didn't have the Litany of Adralla, everyone turned into abominations, I killed the abominations, got the Templar achievement, and didn't even realize I hadn't sided with the mages.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2016 0:20:20 GMT
I always have trouble choosing because both sides deserve a chance to show that they are not the stereotypical evil the other side perceives.
If you give the Mages freedom, do they run rampant, burn down Skyhold and turn into abominations? No. They help the Inquisitor seal the Breach and join in the fight against Corypheus' army in the Wilds.
If you keep the Templar Order and form an alliance, do they start hunting down and killing the mages hanging around Skyhold? No. They help the Inquisitor seal the Breach and with Knight-Templar Barris leading them, join in the battle in the Wilds.
I never conscript or disband them either because I want the people helping me to want to help and not feel forced to help.
I know since DAO we have had a Mage/Templar choice but I feel I should have been able to choose both to be honest.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 4, 2016 4:10:46 GMT
I always have trouble choosing because both sides deserve a chance to show that they are not the stereotypical evil the other side perceives. If you give the Mages freedom, do they run rampant, burn down Skyhold and turn into abominations? No. They help the Inquisitor seal the Breach and join in the fight against Corypheus' army in the Wilds. If you keep the Templar Order and form an alliance, do they start hunting down and killing the mages hanging around Skyhold? No. They help the Inquisitor seal the Breach and with Knight-Templar Barris leading them, join in the battle in the Wilds. I never conscript or disband them either because I want the people helping me to want to help and not feel forced to help. I know since DAO we have had a Mage/Templar choice but I feel I should have been able to choose both to be honest. I definitely like the 'third' option being available sometimes. Like with Nature of the Beast/Zathrian in Origins, but I like it to make sense. Trying to think of a way a third option would have worked for Broken Circle in Origins and...I can't see it. As for Inquisition, wasn't the 'in-game' reason you could only choose one of them that; they were at war and "the friend of my enemy is my enemy"? Can't actually remember right now - it's been some months since I went through Hushed Whispers....or the Templar one...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2016 4:13:00 GMT
I always have trouble choosing because both sides deserve a chance to show that they are not the stereotypical evil the other side perceives. If you give the Mages freedom, do they run rampant, burn down Skyhold and turn into abominations? No. They help the Inquisitor seal the Breach and join in the fight against Corypheus' army in the Wilds. If you keep the Templar Order and form an alliance, do they start hunting down and killing the mages hanging around Skyhold? No. They help the Inquisitor seal the Breach and with Knight-Templar Barris leading them, join in the battle in the Wilds. I never conscript or disband them either because I want the people helping me to want to help and not feel forced to help. I know since DAO we have had a Mage/Templar choice but I feel I should have been able to choose both to be honest. I definitely like the 'third' option being available sometimes. Like with Nature of the Beast/Zathrian in Origins, but I like it to make sense. Trying to think of a way a third option would have worked for Broken Circle in Origins and...I can't see it. As for Inquisition, wasn't the 'in-game' reason you could only choose one of them that; they were at war and "the friend of my enemy is my enemy"? Can't actually remember right now - it's been some months since I went through Hushed Whispers....or the Templar one... Time. That was the problem. If you helped one faction the other was already lost because the time-travel incident and Envy coincide. That's what the journal entry says. It's pretty sad. Feels like I failed a mission.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 4, 2016 4:52:50 GMT
Ok, first playthrough, I allied with the mages. Mainly because in the roleplaying mindset, the Inquisition needs help and they need it fast. Val Royeaux was a bust with Templars and while it's suspicious enough to merit investigation, the free offer of alliance from Fiona meant they got top priority. After all, mages are rare, but devastating. Their magic is versatile, able to do defense, healing as well as building things by levitation. With the Breach, there will be no shortage of sword arms, people ready to fight with bow and blade, but spellcasters were not a dime a dozen. Getting there at Redcliffe, and seeing the mess made it hard to turn my back because come on, how much time has been lost, and how much more will be lost waiting for nobles to get their correspondance together and organized? I felt like I was on a time crunch. Literally. Since the reason the mages rebelled in the first place was because they were fed up with being leashed, it seemed a bad idea to repeat history. (I did take Vivienne's advice to train more templars. Secretly.) It hurts though, every time I see a red Templar, I'm reminded of my choice in that I let good men and women die. The attack on Haven was an echo of the hell seen in the future and it was chilling. I always have to do another canon playthrough where I choose the Templars. If only to assuage my conscience that at least in a parallel universe they're alive and not abandoned.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 4, 2016 6:46:14 GMT
I figure I'll go ahead and preempt a discussion devolving into this. Why do you side with one side or the other? Are there aspects to the plotlines you felt needed work in DA:I? Let's try and keep this at least remotely civil. I remember an old thread I started way back in the day on the BioWare forums that more or less discussed this, using Anders as the POV character point, is Ander's a Terrorist or Freedom Fighter, and do you condemn his actions or justify them? Basically, it boils down to perception that way. We can see mages as the oppressed minority, or we can see Templars as an exacerbated force, and we see how both sides get pushed to their limit because of these fundamental differences. The post went something like this: This served as a good framework for your question. Basically, are mages oppressed, or are templars stigmatized and marginalized because of their position? There is no big evil here that makes this clear. Now me personally, I went with mages more than templars in most of my playthroughs, but there are times where I am very sympathetic from a RP standpoint with the Templars' problems, so it really does depend on the character and their perception. You know, the whole mages/templars scenario sounds reminiscent of the Stanford Prison experiment conducted by Philip Zimbardo. It was terrifying how quickly detachment settled in once the environment favored a certain mindset of us vs them. Neither students who were assigned prisoner or guard role were awful people in of themselves but they became the role that we hear about in abusive prison environments. Perhaps what needs to change is the perception of the Circle as a prison and more as an actual school with security.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 7, 2016 20:33:02 GMT
Mages. Circle-system is wrong. It's not only cruel, unjust, but also dangerous for everyone, not only for the mages (templars: lyrium addiction, commoners: fear from magic/mages, fear from sent to learn the their mage-children into the Circle mages: sentenced to life imprisonment or persecution).
My Wardens: seeing the templar's impotence (do not tried to save the mages, only closed the doors), and the prison system, of course choosed the mages. My Hawkes agreed with Anders. Hawke in all his life was free, if he would imprisoned his other fellow mages, he would be a filthy hypocrite. My Inquisitors are mages. My Adaar mage's parents choosed the freedom instead the qun, he choosed easily. My Trevelyan mages was in the Circle. Do not necessarly more explain. And my Lavellans? A Dalish how can accept this system?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2016 21:36:03 GMT
Saved the Circle in DAO. Duncan said mages were needed in the coming war.
Joined with the Templars in DA2. Too many blood mages and the weakened Veil did not help.
Allied with the Templars in DAI. Suppressing the Breach is safer. Adding more magic is not. Magic is what caused the Breach.
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Post by Ieldra on Aug 9, 2016 11:15:34 GMT
I have played characters who allied with either group in the games, but philosophically I am very much pro-mage. The reasons:
I value an individual's autonomy higher than the integrity of a community. In fact, there hasn't been a community I didn't find too confining yet. Consequently, I will always side with any individual who asserts their autonomy against enforcers of a law I do not agree with, and especially so if it's a religious authority, which I tend to despise for being arbitrary and intolerant in the first place.
For similar reasons, in stories, I tend to side with people who have superpowers that enable them to be more autonomous, even if that comes at some cost to the community, because I want more autonomous individuals to be the future of humanity. In RL, I'm a transhumanist, so I'm part of a movement that pretty much aims for such superpowers to become part of humanity.
What this means for DA is that I will oppose preventive measures applied before an individual has done anything to merit restriction, that restrict an individual's autonomy, regardless of whether that individual is mageborn or not. Prosecute them all you want, but only after they've done something to merit it. If that means the mageborn have to live apart because the non-mageborn are too afraid, then so be it, but let them live apart on teir own terms, not on an external authority's terms, and especially not on the authority of an ideology predisposed to revile them.
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Post by Heimdall on Aug 9, 2016 12:06:30 GMT
I've always been in favor of a reformed, more lenient circle system, though not its complete abolishment. Mages need a place where they can be taught to control their talents and there needs to be a safeguard against magic run amok. I've always imagined a school that mages can leave once they have sufficiently mastered their talents.
As for my characters, Emrien Mahariel didn't have a strong view either way. He mostly knew Templars as the ones who hunted the clan for Merrill and Marethari from time to time. But what he saw in Redcliffe and the Circle seemed like a strong case for holding mages in check. He saved the mages, and he sympathizes with their desire for freedom, he doesn't think about it beyond that.
Alys Hawke was a Mage herself and thus far more prone to supporting Mage freedom, though she opposed blood magic and killed Anders for what he did. She never wanted a war or violent rebellion.
Riona Lavellan was more like Emrien. She conscripted the mages, though that had more to do with their service to Alexius than any broader view of the issue. She had no strong opinion beyond that.
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Post by llandwynwyn on Aug 9, 2016 14:16:03 GMT
I support both coexisting. The Templar Order needs reforms, yes, but it's needed and has an important place in Thedas. So does the Circle Mage.
Players go on about #mage freedom, that they forgot how Thedas isn't our modern world. There is small villages everywhere, the general population has poor education, poor diet, health and etc. You can't let young mages free in their pisspoor village, which will receive no funds to raise 1 or 2 people at most, they need to go to a centralized place where they'll learn to control their powers with no much interference from their life. Ideally, a circle allows mages to be raised in a safe environment: with education, proper food and healing.
The problem is that they turn into golden birds after: live and produce only for their cage, when some should be out in the world improving society.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 9, 2016 14:51:26 GMT
I support both coexisting. The Templar Order needs reforms, yes, but it's needed and has an important place in Thedas. So does the Circle Mage. Players go on about #mage freedom, that they forgot how Thedas isn't our modern world. There is small villages everywhere, the general population has poor education, poor diet, health and etc. You can't let young mages free in their pisspoor village, which will receive no funds to raise 1 or 2 people at most, they need to go to a centralized place where they'll learn to control their powers with no much interference from their life. Ideally, a circle allows mages to be raised in a safe environment: with education, proper food and healing. The problem is that they turn into golden birds after: live and produce only for their cage, when some should be out in the world improving society. What kind of reform? A totally corrupt system impossible to repair, but need to eliminate, and build a new one. Yes, the Circles are important: for schoole and library, but not as prison. And the templars? The armed junkie guys endowed with absolute power? Not very comforting, nor is it safe. Not mentioned, that the lyrium addiction not too good stuff. Then the templars are also victims, but they have a chance to choose. Modern or not modern world: oppression follows a bloody rebellion. This is not surprising, rather natural.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 9, 2016 15:08:57 GMT
Only way I can see circle mages and templars coexisting is if they go with Tevinter route: Circle's are places to study magic, not prisons and templars are free from Chantry's lyrium leash. They act as protectors to mages, nothing more, nothing less. Mages should govern themselves. Like Inquisitor says, who would know the dangers of magic better than a mage?
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Post by ddj on Aug 9, 2016 15:41:34 GMT
Siding with one side or the other is a bit of a loaded question. In DAI I have played both options - get the Templars and get the Mages. I actually like the Mage story better, so I choose it routinely. That being said, I also choose to regard them as an enemy force. Remember, this is early in the game. My rationale is that if I capture them they can always prove themselves worthy of freedom which I am prepared to grant. However Fiona did "sell" them to Tevinter. I have been pro mage for some time although I am not necessarily anti-Templar. I am against the Templars in DA2 but that extends only to the "lets tranquil them all" variety. No matter how you cut it, mages are enslaved by the Chantry and I am decidedly anti-slavery. I sided with the mages throughout the Dragon Age series as well. DA2 showed the worst cases of abuse, and as I always play an elf, a race that generally has been enslaved at times, I see the injustice of being imprisoned for an accident of birth.
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llandwynwyn
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
Posts: 450 Likes: 925
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May 11, 2019 14:32:35 GMT
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llandwynwyn
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August 2016
llandwynwyn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by llandwynwyn on Aug 9, 2016 16:07:36 GMT
What kind of reform? A totally corrupt system impossible to repair, but need to eliminate, and build a new one. Yes, the Circles are important: for schoole and library, but not as prison. And the templars? The armed junkie guys endowed with absolute power? Not very comforting, nor is it safe. Not mentioned, that the lyrium addiction not too good stuff. Then the templars are also victims, but they have a chance to choose. Modern or not modern world: oppression follows a bloody rebellion. This is not surprising, rather natural. The system isn't totally corrupt imo, thus it can be improved. Kirkwall was the only true unredeemable place in the games, corrupt to its core, and that was mostly due to the locale. A grave mistake by the chantry. Templars getting free of their lyrium leash is one of the things that need to be changed, of course, as is their training.
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