sneakyfox
N1
why can't i bone cora????????????
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 7 Likes: 19
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why can't i bone cora????????????
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Post by sneakyfox on Mar 22, 2017 20:35:21 GMT
I'm only ~5-6 hours into this game and I cannot overstate how bad the science is. I don't know if I was too engaged in the story for the original trilogy to notice the various forms of science-hackery going on or if it just wasn't as blatant, BUT WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BOY Please share any weird versions of "science" this game has to offer that you've seen, because I would sincerely like to hear them. I've probably missed a bunch already.
Here is the first massive one I've seen: Kesh, the female krogan on board the Nexus, talks about the genophage with your Ryder when prompted. What she says is something along the lines of "my clan developed a mutation that will help them resist the genophage, and underwent gene therapy while in cryo to help overcome it" For those who are not bio/science majors, there are MULTIPLE PROBLEMS WITH THIS: 1. mutations affect the individual, not an entire population - evolution happens vertically (from parent --> child) not horizontally (from sibling to sibling, friend to friend, uncle to aunt, etc). and therefore the entire clan would not all have the same mutation at the same specific locus without direct medical intervention (Kesh said there's no cure for the genophage that they know of, so medical intervention is unlikely) 2. almost all mutations are not helpful to individuals (people's genes mutate all the time, almost always without any real benefit - advantageous ones are rare and entirely dependent on environment), and a mutation in an extremely short period of time in a small population that almost never reproduces is HIGHLY HIGHLY unlikely. Non-mutation adaption would also be extremely slow given that selective pressures only work on populations that produce children, and if krogan almost never have children, it would take them millions upon millions of years to naturally build resistance to it. 3. mutations are the slowest form of evolution, because again, they ONLY affect the individual and potentially their offspring. 4. mutations just don't WORK THAT WAY5. they would not be able to notice a change in offspring viability without every clan woman getting pregnant thousands upon thousands of times (since viability is 1 in 1000) in the span of the fourteen months they've been on the Nexus, which seems unlikely to me 6. Apparently gene therapy isn't even possible with krogan (from the wiki here: masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Genophage)so... yeah. Sci-fi will always be rule-bendy (and breaky), but this is literally just false in every conceivable way, unless krogan genes work entirely differently than humans' (and given that they discuss genetic in a very human-oriented way, I doubt this).
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Rico01
N2
Master of low standards
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 198 Likes: 170
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Rico01
Master of low standards
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Post by Rico01 on Mar 22, 2017 20:38:53 GMT
Faster than light travel in the first place?
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joglee
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Jberry0410
Posts: 318 Likes: 359
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by joglee on Mar 22, 2017 20:40:07 GMT
Did you miss the explanation for stunning the Krogan population growth in ME1-3?
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Post by pariahking on Mar 22, 2017 20:40:12 GMT
I'm not sure I follow...have you considered the effects of dark energy? With enough dark energy, your genes forget they exist, and then you can re-edit them even through the genophage.
I mean Mac Walters was on the writing team, he knows a lot about science and DNA, I don't think they'd make a mistake in a triple AAA publication of this magnitude.
Also maybe the bad facial animations are merely a side effect of the gene therapy
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Party like it's 2023!
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kaisershep
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 22, 2017 20:40:50 GMT
Biotics: because frak the laws of physics.
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sneakyfox
N1
why can't i bone cora????????????
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 7 Likes: 19
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sneakyfox
why can't i bone cora????????????
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Mar 20, 2017 22:46:37 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by sneakyfox on Mar 22, 2017 20:44:22 GMT
Did you miss the explanation for stunning the Krogan population growth in ME1-3? Nope! I'm totally familiar with the genophage (though I'm fuzzy on some of the more obscure details), and I know there's a cure for it in the Milky Way. It doesn't change how ludicrous Kesh's explanation for them developing a resistance to it is, though.
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Post by warbaby2 on Mar 22, 2017 20:44:39 GMT
Aside the fact that no form of any therapy that, at least requires working cell metabolism, would be possible in suspended animation/cryo sleep in the first place... but that just as an aside. There is a reason why one doesn't age in cryo...
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spacebeetle
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy
Posts: 462 Likes: 711
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 22, 2017 20:45:09 GMT
On habitat 7:
The idea that plugging SAM to the PC brain is the only cure availaible to the beginning of suffocation caused by the planet thin atmosphere. I find... impossible to believe something like that is necessary, considering the situation as a whole.
Also the idea that an AI able to be plugged to organic brains can make eezo appear from nothingness and make an engineer in a biotic on the fly. It violates at least the principle of mass conservation (among the others).
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sneakyfox
N1
why can't i bone cora????????????
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 7 Likes: 19
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sneakyfox
why can't i bone cora????????????
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Mar 20, 2017 22:46:37 GMT
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sneakyfox
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by sneakyfox on Mar 22, 2017 20:46:13 GMT
I'm not sure I follow...have you considered the effects of dark energy? With enough dark energy, your genes forget they exist, and then you can re-edit them even through the genophage. I mean Mac Walters was on the writing team, he knows a lot about science and DNA, I don't think they'd make a mistake in a triple AAA publication of this magnitude. Also maybe the bad facial animations are merely a side effect of the gene therapy shit u rite... dark energy controls everything. checkmate, atheists
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Post by ticktak77 on Mar 22, 2017 20:48:38 GMT
Arriving in a new galaxy, 200 million light years and 600 calendar years away, only to find out the locals speak perfect English.
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Post by nothv13 on Mar 22, 2017 20:50:19 GMT
On habitat 7: The idea that plugging SAM to the PC brain is the only cure availaible to the beginning of suffocation caused by the planet thin atmosphere. I find... impossible to believe something like that is necessary, considering the situation as a whole. Also the idea that an AI able to be plugged to organic brains can make eezo appear from nothingness and make an engineer in a biotic on the fly. It violates at least the principle of mass conservation (among the others). From my understanding the plugging into SAM was not to cure suffocation, but instead to solve some issues with SAM getting transferred to a new person who was under duress. They had seemed to have solved the suffocation without plugging into SAM, but needed direct access to SAM to deal with the after effects of the transfer. Scott and Sara were both exposed to Eezo in the womb, thus can be biotic. Think of SAM simply giving them access/knowledge to use that latent biotic ability.
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spacebeetle
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy
Posts: 462 Likes: 711
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 22, 2017 20:57:00 GMT
On habitat 7: The idea that plugging SAM to the PC brain is the only cure availaible to the beginning of suffocation caused by the planet thin atmosphere. I find... impossible to believe something like that is necessary, considering the situation as a whole. Also the idea that an AI able to be plugged to organic brains can make eezo appear from nothingness and make an engineer in a biotic on the fly. It violates at least the principle of mass conservation (among the others). From my understanding the plugging into SAM was not to cure suffocation, but instead to solve some issues with SAM getting transferred to a new person who was under duress. They had seemed to have solved the suffocation without plugging into SAM, but needed direct access to SAM to deal with the after effects of the transfer. Scott and Sara were both exposed to Eezo in the womb, thus can be biotic. Think of SAM simply giving them access/knowledge to use that latent biotic ability. Personally, I take exception to doctors who authorize AI plugging on patients under suffocation duress (T’Perro). But ok, this would be an ethical sin: still, we see SAM repairing some neurons during the integration. I suppose the transfer was more important than the health of the patient here -shrug-. Can I have the source on the eezo exposure for both the twin? As far as I understand, their mother died by eezo induced cancer only after their birth (years after).
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Post by dreth on Mar 22, 2017 20:58:17 GMT
Welcome to the world of science FICTION! Where real world science means absolutely nothing.
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spacebeetle
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy
Posts: 462 Likes: 711
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 22, 2017 21:06:58 GMT
Welcome to the world of science FICTION! Where real world science means absolutely nothing. I would like to disagree with this misconception: good sci-fi is about the possibilities of future science, not the impossibilities (that is more of a fantasy shtick). Also, imo, the more a sci-fi tale delves in the consequences in universe of the possibilities it uses, and the more they are coherently presented and aligned with the plot, the more it can be considered good sci-fi.
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Post by pariahking on Mar 22, 2017 21:07:31 GMT
Welcome to the world of science FICTION! Where real world science means absolutely nothing. It's only fiction if you want it to be - there are plenty of Shepard-kin out there who embody the very essence of Shepard and help bring the Mass Effect universe to our lives and bring us on a step closer to it every day. Those people are deeply troubled when their kin-existence is distressed by a cognitive dissonance effect because of in-game science lacking a true connection to their spiritual, real world selves. In this way fiction is more important than science, and yes, even reality - so it should be good science, not bad.
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Post by nothv13 on Mar 22, 2017 21:09:38 GMT
From my understanding the plugging into SAM was not to cure suffocation, but instead to solve some issues with SAM getting transferred to a new person who was under duress. They had seemed to have solved the suffocation without plugging into SAM, but needed direct access to SAM to deal with the after effects of the transfer. Scott and Sara were both exposed to Eezo in the womb, thus can be biotic. Think of SAM simply giving them access/knowledge to use that latent biotic ability. Personally, I take exception to doctors who authorize AI plugging on patients under suffocation duress (T’Perro). But ok, this would be an ethical sin: still, we see SAM repairing some neurons during the integration. I suppose the transfer was more important than the health of the patient here -shrug-. Can I have the source on the eezo exposure for both the twin? As far as I understand, their mother died by eezo induced cancer only after their birth (years after). The transfer had already happened on Habitat 7. You even hear SAM say transfer complete. Taking you to SAM was not to complete the transfer but to save you. It makes sense that she was exposed while pregnant with the twins and fits perfectly in the story. If it is like exposure to radiation it could easily take 10+ years for cancer to even manifest. We aren't given time lines for how fast the cancer from Eezo exposure to manifest.
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Arcian
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: GVArcian
XBL Gamertag: GVArcian
Prime Posts: 2473
Prime Likes: 2168
Posts: 928 Likes: 1,354
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Post by Arcian on Mar 22, 2017 21:16:00 GMT
I'm only ~5-6 hours into this game and I cannot overstate how bad the science is. I don't know if I was too engaged in the story for the original trilogy to notice the various forms of science-hackery going on or if it just wasn't as blatant, BUT WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BOY Please share any weird versions of "science" this game has to offer that you've seen, because I would sincerely like to hear them. I've probably missed a bunch already.
Here is the first massive one I've seen: Kesh, the female krogan on board the Nexus, talks about the genophage with your Ryder when prompted. What she says is something along the lines of "my clan developed a mutation that will help them resist the genophage, and underwent gene therapy while in cryo to help overcome it" For those who are not bio/science majors, there are MULTIPLE PROBLEMS WITH THIS: 1. mutations affect the individual, not an entire population - evolution happens vertically (from parent --> child) not horizontally (from sibling to sibling, friend to friend, uncle to aunt, etc). and therefore the entire clan would not all have the same mutation at the same specific locus without direct medical intervention (Kesh said there's no cure for the genophage that they know of, so medical intervention is unlikely) 2. almost all mutations are not helpful to individuals (people's genes mutate all the time, almost always without any real benefit - advantageous ones are rare and entirely dependent on environment), and a mutation in an extremely short period of time in a small population that almost never reproduces is HIGHLY HIGHLY unlikely. Non-mutation adaption would also be extremely slow given that selective pressures only work on populations that produce children, and if krogan almost never have children, it would take them millions upon millions of years to naturally build resistance to it. 3. mutations are the slowest form of evolution, because again, they ONLY affect the individual and potentially their offspring. 4. mutations just don't WORK THAT WAY5. they would not be able to notice a change in offspring viability without every clan woman getting pregnant thousands upon thousands of times (since viability is 1 in 1000) in the span of the fourteen months they've been on the Nexus, which seems unlikely to me 6. Apparently gene therapy isn't even possible with krogan (from the wiki here: masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Genophage)so... yeah. Sci-fi will always be rule-bendy (and breaky), but this is literally just false in every conceivable way, unless krogan genes work entirely differently than humans' (and given that they discuss genetic in a very human-oriented way, I doubt this). The bigger problem with this is how gene therapy is supposed to work in stasis on someone who has all of their biological processes suspended. There is no blood flow, no brain activity, no heartbeat... even activity on an atomic level is frozen in time.
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spacebeetle
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy
Posts: 462 Likes: 711
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 22, 2017 21:24:45 GMT
Personally, I take exception to doctors who authorize AI plugging on patients under suffocation duress (T’Perro). But ok, this would be an ethical sin: still, we see SAM repairing some neurons during the integration. I suppose the transfer was more important than the health of the patient here -shrug-. Can I have the source on the eezo exposure for both the twin? As far as I understand, their mother died by eezo induced cancer only after their birth (years after). The transfer had already happened on Habitat 7. You even hear SAM say transfer complete. Taking you to SAM was not to complete the transfer but to save you. It makes sense that she was exposed while pregnant with the twins and fits perfectly in the story. If it is like exposure to radiation it could easily take 10+ years for cancer to even manifest. We aren't given time lines for how fast the cancer from Eezo exposure to manifest. So SAM acts as a wireless biotic amp? I still have some problems with this.
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Arcian
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: GVArcian
XBL Gamertag: GVArcian
Prime Posts: 2473
Prime Likes: 2168
Posts: 928 Likes: 1,354
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Post by Arcian on Mar 22, 2017 21:33:18 GMT
Welcome to the world of science FICTION! Where real world science means absolutely nothing. The notion that real world science is irrelevant in science fiction makes about as much sense as real world history being irrelevant in historical fiction. A science fiction story set in our universe has to adhere to a basic fucking level of scientific accuracy, just like how a historical fiction novel has to adhere to the time period it is set in. The point of science fiction is to explore speculative science - science that might be possible - not to rewrite or throw out existing science that is inconveniencing the story. That's what fantasy is for.
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Mar 22, 2017 21:39:58 GMT
I haven't gotten into it, so I literally skimmed over everything to post the one Mass Effect science sin that grinds my gears (and teeth) every. Freaking. Time. I can deal with handwaving, mistakes, lack of clarity about how it works, whatever. I don't do well with blatant, baldfaced misinformation (at least shroud your lies behind a soothing cloak of technobabble, for decency's sake).
"Humans are unusually genetically diverse." From Mordin, of all people. On his loyalty mission in two.
Bull. Pucky.
That is literally the exact opposite of the truth. For a large mammal, we're actually very homogenous. Unusually so. Bonus points for using the blatant lie as a plot point.
I'm sorry. I just wanted to rant about that again. I'm a bad person.
-exists thread sheepishly-
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SKAR
N3
Can you dig it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: SKAR5903
Posts: 397 Likes: 282
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SKAR
Can you dig it?
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skar
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
SKAR5903
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Post by SKAR on Mar 22, 2017 21:41:34 GMT
Faster than light travel in the first place? Could become science fact. We're a relatively young species and nothing is absolute, especially with science. Maybe one day we'll give Einstein or Newton the finger.
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spacebeetle
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy
Posts: 462 Likes: 711
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 22, 2017 21:45:27 GMT
Faster than light travel in the first place? Could become science fact. We're a relatively young species and nothing is absolute, especially with science. Maybe one day we'll give Newton the finger. To be fair, old man Albert demonstrated only that no object with a mass can accelerate up to beyond light speed. But with the consequences (and future possible applications) stemming from the study of the bosons, who knows? In the meantime, let's keep the dream alive and kicking.
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Rico01
N2
Master of low standards
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 198 Likes: 170
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Rico01
Master of low standards
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Rico01 on Mar 22, 2017 21:47:11 GMT
Faster than light travel in the first place? Could become science fact. We're a relatively young species and nothing is absolute, especially with science. Maybe one day we'll give Newton the finger. You mean Einstein I believe. I do agree with your post however, but given our current understanding of the physics involved, there is no evidence for FTL travel.
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SKAR
N3
Can you dig it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: SKAR5903
Posts: 397 Likes: 282
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SKAR
Can you dig it?
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skar
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
SKAR5903
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Post by SKAR on Mar 22, 2017 21:48:33 GMT
Could become science fact. We're a relatively young species and nothing is absolute, especially with science. Maybe one day we'll give Newton the finger. You mean Einstein I believe. I do agree with your post however, but given our current understanding of the physics involved, there is no evidence for FTL travel. I meant Newton's laws of physics as an example. It had nothing to do with FTL. Albert's a better example, i'll fix it.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,879 Likes: 49,335
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Mar 22, 2017 21:48:56 GMT
On habitat 7: The idea that plugging SAM to the PC brain is the only cure availaible to the beginning of suffocation caused by the planet thin atmosphere. I find... impossible to believe something like that is necessary, considering the situation as a whole. Also the idea that an AI able to be plugged to organic brains can make eezo appear from nothingness and make an engineer in a biotic on the fly. It violates at least the principle of mass conservation (among the others). Hey, at least Ryder was only clinically dead for 22 seconds. Not like two years the last time they pulled a stunt like that
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