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Post by Ahriman on Mar 23, 2017 11:43:46 GMT
1. 40% of water shipments to Nexus are used for maintenance of hydroponics. Have they ever heard about recycling? 2. -41C is life threatening hazard for people in spacesuits apparently. Fortunately I don't have to wear a spacesuit and manage with second pair of pants during winter. 3. 3m high anti-radiation fence. Like seriously, what is this supposed to mean?
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Post by warbaby2 on Mar 23, 2017 12:00:37 GMT
1. 40% of water shipments to Nexus are used for maintenance of hydroponics. Have they ever heard about recycling? 2. -41C is life threatening hazard for people in spacesuits apparently. Fortunately I don't have to wear a spacesuit and manage with second pair of pants during winter. 3. 3m high anti-radiation fence. Like seriously, what is this supposed to mean? 1. Water recycling should be a thing, I agree... not quite sure how often one can reprocess water until it becomes useless to support plant life, though. 2. While space itself is technically absolute zero, there is no - well - air, so spacesuits don't actually have to be that heavily insulted against extreme cold... -42° C is still not that impressive, though. 3. I think the idea is that the perimeter pylons create a anti-radiation bubble... it's not very well represented though. Again, most of MEA's science is only skin deep and doesn't really get explored or explained...
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Post by riou on Mar 23, 2017 12:07:39 GMT
Why do people assume that stasis means a hard halt on all biological processes? That would kill people, not put them into stasis. And you would age in cryo, just very, very slowly.
Krogan metabolism is also a ridiculous thing given inherent cellular regeneration. So it'd be entirely possible to mutate the krogan while they're in cryo to help them adapt to the mutation without possibly risking their lives.
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Post by shermos on Mar 24, 2017 1:16:48 GMT
I've never had a problem with soft sci-fi provided it doesn't get too ridiculous. The ME OT has problems with scientific accuracy, but it remained internally consistent for the most part. What I can't forgive MEA for is how blatant it is in ignoring basic science, AND the fact it ignores well established lore from its own universe.
No one should ever try to do science fiction without someone qualified to consult with or some science knowledge themselves so they can avoid writing anything too crazy.
Joking aside, there are several methods for FTL which are thought could be possible. My understanding is that Element zero allows ships to warp space time. The concept of element zero isn't very good, but a warp drive is very much within the realm of possibility.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 2:31:19 GMT
I've never had a problem with soft sci-fi provided it doesn't get too ridiculous. The ME OT has problems with scientific accuracy, but it remained internally consistent for the most part. What I can't forgive MEA for is how blatant it is in ignoring basic science, AND the fact it ignores well established lore from its own universe. No one should ever try to do science fiction without someone qualified to consult with or some science knowledge themselves so they can avoid writing anything too crazy. Just out of interest, in what ways does it contradict the lore? I've seen this complaint a few times, but no-one's given any actual examples. Perhaps you could enlighten me...
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Post by shermos on Mar 24, 2017 3:00:01 GMT
I've never had a problem with soft sci-fi provided it doesn't get too ridiculous. The ME OT has problems with scientific accuracy, but it remained internally consistent for the most part. What I can't forgive MEA for is how blatant it is in ignoring basic science, AND the fact it ignores well established lore from its own universe. No one should ever try to do science fiction without someone qualified to consult with or some science knowledge themselves so they can avoid writing anything too crazy. Just out of interest, in what ways does it contradict the lore? I've seen this complaint a few times, but no-one's given any actual examples. Perhaps you could enlighten me... Well to start with, the trip to Andromeda shouldn't be possible the way it's been setup. The arks are supposed to have left sometime during ME2. The technology required didn't exist. There's a hand wavy explanation for it in game, something about travelling slower than the drives are capable of, but I don't buy into that. Next we have the expedition using other tech which didn't exist during ME2, such as those jump pack things and the new omni tools. The jump packs are a good idea from a game play perspective. I can see how they make SP and MP more enjoyable and less of a grind. They don't work from a lore standpoint though. Shepard would have used them if they existed by the time of ME3. We find out Liara knew about the project. Why the hell wouldn't she tell Shepard something like "It's not the end if things go south. I was told about a project which ensures at least some of the MW races will survive." This isn't exactly lore breaking I guess, but god I couldn't get that out of my head. Then there's SAM the AI. AI research was highly illegal in the OT. It doesn't make sense that a former N7 soldier working on a well known project could get away with it. I think there's a hand wavey explanation for this too, but again, I don't buy it, and it takes away from how special and exceptional EDI was supposed to have been. I won't get into how SAM is absically forcing the synthesis ending from ME3 onto the player. There's another thread for that. I get a strong Impression the writers for MEA felt like the lore was an annoyance to write around instead of something to embrace and work with. One of my posts earlier explains how MEA could have been done in a way which is more respectful and sensible lore wise. It would mean choosing a canon ending for ME3 (although not necessarily), but Bioware apparently doesn't care about that despite what they have said earlier.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Mar 24, 2017 3:23:15 GMT
Just out of interest, in what ways does it contradict the lore? I've seen this complaint a few times, but no-one's given any actual examples. Perhaps you could enlighten me... Well to start with, the trip to Andromeda shouldn't be possible the way it's been setup. The arks are supposed to have left sometime during ME2. The technology required didn't exist. There's a hand wavy explanation for it in game, something about travelling slower than the drives are capable of, but I don't buy into that. Next we have the expedition using other tech which didn't exist during ME2, such as those jump pack things and the new omni tools. The jump packs are a good idea from a game play perspective. I can see how they make SP and MP more enjoyable and less of a grind. They don't work from a lore standpoint though. Shepard would have used them if they existed by the time of ME3. We find out Liara knew about the project. Why the hell wouldn't she tell Shepard something like "It's not the end if things go south. I was told about a project which ensures at least some of the MW races will survive." This isn't exactly lore breaking I guess, but god I couldn't get that out of my head. Then there's SAM the AI. AI research was highly illegal in the OT. It doesn't make sense that a former N7 soldier working on a well known project could get away with it. I think there's a hand wavey explanation for this too, but again, I don't buy it, and it takes away from how special and exceptional EDI was supposed to have been. I won't get into how SAM is absically forcing the synthesis ending from ME3 onto the player. There's another thread for that. I get a strong Impression the writers for MEA felt like the lore was an annoyance to write around instead of something to embrace and work with. One of my posts earlier explains how MEA could have been done in a way which is more respectful and sensible lore wise. It would mean choosing a canon ending for ME3 (although not necessarily), but Bioware apparently doesn't care about that despite what they have said earlier. 1. ODSY Drive was not used an distributed heavily in the OT, however it clearly, as the lore states, existed. It just wasn't seen as necessary or useful. I'm guessing it was an expense thing. Why spend a whole bunch on a new experimental drive that fixes a problem you don't have? The Relays in the Milky Way go everywhere the MW citizens want to go, and a lot faster than the ODSY drive. So I have no problem with it. Not every person with a prosthetic limb gets a super-cool robotic prosthetic, due to limited supply and costs. Doesn't mean the tech doesn't exist. 2. Jump Packs clearly exist in the OT. ME3MP Turian Havoc? Boom. They just didn't use it more often for...reasons. I'm not convinced Shep would have used them either. We currently have (mostly) functional jet-pack things in the world, but soldiers and whatnot aren't using them left and right (although did you know that the Dubai fire department uses those water jet-pack things for fires on the water?? Crazy!!). And I'm not sure what's so different about the Omni Tools. The scanners? I dunno, I think they scan things in the OT, it just doesn't have that same animation and the PC doesn't do it. Doesn't Liara wave her hand around a lot at things with the omni tool for info? Pretty sure. 3. Liara doesn't have to tell Shep everything. He/She has a lot on his/her plate at the time. I don't have an issue with it. I guess it's find if you do, but it isn't explicitly lore-breaking. 4. The illegal nature of Alec's AI research was described in MEA. So that's all fine. And notice how SAM isn't quite as intelligent as EDI? I think that's what makes her special. The Reaper tech. SAM is self-aware, but not quite to the level EDI is. And remember, there have been other AI's around before, like the Geth. So it's not outside of the lore for Alec to have developed this. In one of the books written by Drew they even talk about an illegal AI production site. So again, within the lore.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 3:26:36 GMT
Just out of interest, in what ways does it contradict the lore? I've seen this complaint a few times, but no-one's given any actual examples. Perhaps you could enlighten me... Well to start with, the trip to Andromeda shouldn't be possible the way it's been setup. The arks are supposed to have left sometime during ME2. The technology required didn't exist. There's a hand wavy explanation for it in game, something about travelling slower than the drives are capable of, but I don't buy into that. Next we have the expedition using other tech which didn't exist during ME2, such as those jump pack things and the new omni tools. The jump packs are a good idea from a game play perspective. I can see how they make SP and MP more enjoyable and less of a grind. They don't work from a lore standpoint though. Shepard would have used them if they existed by the time of ME3. We find out Liara knew about the project. Why the hell wouldn't she tell Shepard something like "It's not the end if things go south. I was told about a project which ensures at least some of the MW races will survive." This isn't exactly lore breaking I guess, but god I couldn't get that out of my head. Then there's SAM the AI. AI research was highly illegal in the OT. It doesn't make sense that a former N7 soldier working on a well known project could get away with it. I think there's a hand wavey explanation for this too, but again, I don't buy it, and it takes away from how special and exceptional EDI was supposed to have been. I won't get into how SAM is absically forcing the synthesis ending from ME3 onto the player. There's another thread for that. I get a strong Impression the writers for MEA felt like the lore was an annoyance to write around instead of something to embrace and work with. One of my posts earlier explains how MEA could have been done in a way which is more respectful and sensible lore wise. It would mean choosing a canon ending for ME3, but Bioware apparently doesn't care about that despite what they have said earlier. 1. There's nothing to say the drive tech doesn't exist. Just because we didn't see it before doesn't mean it can't exist. I've never seen the Taj Mahal but I don't doubt that it's there. It's entirely plausible that the tech for long-range expeditions was developed, but Shepard never came across it because they never went on any long-range expeditions. 2. As far as the jump-jets are concerned, you have a point, but for me it's such a trivial detail that I'll take it given it's improved the gameplay significantly. And I don't see what's new about the omni-tools. They're omni-tools, they do lots of different shit. Clues in the name. 3. Yes Liara knew about the project. She probably knew about a lot of other shit she never told us. But still, I get your point although I wouldn't class it as breaking the lore... 4. Alec didn't get away with it. It got him kicked out of the Alliance. And he's only able to actually build the AI thanks to significant funding from a "benefactor". I don't know if we ever find out who this benefactor is, since I haven't finished the game, but I'm guessing it's one of two people. One of whom we know has the resources to build an advanced AI or two in secret. I wouldn't say it's "forcing the synthesis ending" since it's just one illegally developed AI, and the game does briefly deal with the Initiative's future use of AI and people's feelings towards that. And I really don't see how the development of AI in the Andromeda galaxy somehow affects the ending of ME3. But as you say, there's another thread for that so I'll leave it there. I'll admit that the jump-jets bend the lore slightly, but compare it to other franchises and I really don't think it's that bad. Any series has to manipulate its lore somewhat to make future installments work. I appreciate you taking the time to reply with such a detailed response. I have no problem with people criticizing the game when they can back it up. Edit: Goddamn Ninjas... I hate ninjas
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Post by maximusarael020 on Mar 24, 2017 3:33:30 GMT
Edit: Goddamn Ninjas... I hate ninjas Is that...me? Am I the ninja? I'm sorry.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 3:35:46 GMT
Edit: Goddamn Ninjas... I hate ninjas Is that...me? Am I the ninja? I'm sorry. Don't worry. I completely forgot the turians had jetpacks in ME3MP. But yes, you were the ninja
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Post by jastall on Mar 24, 2017 3:52:19 GMT
The jump jets were a thing in the OT. Turian Havoc and such. Shepard didn't use them because he's not an explorer traversing the environment.
To say Alec got away with AI research is also false, but that's entering spoiler territory.
Also, if people don't like some of the hand-wavy explanations of science in Andromeda... how the hell didn't you go ballistic at the Lazarus Project? The Crucible? The Mass Effect in the first place? The series always played fast and loose with the science. Beyond the premise of going to a new galaxy which IS ludicrous, I don't find Andromeda any worse than the OT. Hell it's probably still better than ME2 on that front.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 3:59:08 GMT
The jump jets were a thing in the OT. Turian Havoc and such. Shepard didn't use them because he's not an explorer traversing the environment. To say Alec got away with AI research is also false, but that's entering spoiler territory. Also, if people don't like some of the hand-wavy explanations of science in Andromeda... how the hell didn't you go ballistic at the Lazarus Project? The Crucible? The Mass Effect in the first place? The series always played fast and loose with the science. Beyond the premise of going to a new galaxy which IS ludicrous, I don't find Andromeda any worse than the OT. Hell it's probably still better than ME2 on that front. I dunno, what with the reapers coming and all Andromeda's looking pretty cosy...
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Post by ticktak77 on Mar 24, 2017 4:29:12 GMT
The Angarans have weapons, ships, satellites, and technology that is as advanced as the Initiative races, but for some reason have no records of anything that happened before the Scourge?
THat's one of those headscratchers.
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Post by Bann Duncan on Mar 25, 2017 15:21:28 GMT
I don't know if this has been posted yet (didn't read the thread for fear of spoilers) but Lexi's balanced diet email was a great example of this. It's basically the thoroughly discredited 1992 USDA food pyramid rephrased as a list. (It was already debunked well over a decade ago, for prescribing eating choices that would actually lead to pretty bad health and obesity outcomes, so this isn't some new, uncertain discovery that would have happened during the dev cycle.)
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Post by jackdaniel on Mar 25, 2017 16:11:27 GMT
It's patently clear to me that the writer for this game treats setting as expendable in order to serve whatever decision they separately made. I can't see anything that shows they made extra effort to stay faithful either to existing science or the in universe science. ME1 bent over backward to make sure all the stuff in it is scientific, only making up Ezo as a plot device. But everything else is can be logically derived from EZO. Even things that never show up in game play had a thought out explaination: how laser beam diffract, how heat is managed in space, or build up of static electricity in starships. So yea, this science in this game maybe on par with a typical AAA game, but is definitely below ME standard.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 25, 2017 16:52:28 GMT
1. ODSY Drive was not used an distributed heavily in the OT, however it clearly, as the lore states, existed. It just wasn't seen as necessary or useful. I'm guessing it was an expense thing. Why spend a whole bunch on a new experimental drive that fixes a problem you don't have? The Relays in the Milky Way go everywhere the MW citizens want to go, and a lot faster than the ODSY drive. So I have no problem with it. Not every person with a prosthetic limb gets a super-cool robotic prosthetic, due to limited supply and costs. Doesn't mean the tech doesn't exist. You mean to say that the quarians, who lost heir homeworld over three centuries ago, and haven't been able to find a suitable replacement that they'd be allowed to settle on (thanks, Citadel Council!) wouldn't be interested in ODSY drives? Or humans and batarians, who fight over garden worlds in the Attican Traverse? Or heck, ANYONE who wants to get away from COuncil authority and explore unknown stars in some forgotten corner of the galaxy. Just like the Andromeda Initiative, but closer to home!
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Post by Space Cowboy on Mar 25, 2017 17:13:31 GMT
ODSY drives existed in the trilogy lore? WHere? Can someone point me to a cite? thanks.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Mar 25, 2017 17:52:40 GMT
1. ODSY Drive was not used an distributed heavily in the OT, however it clearly, as the lore states, existed. It just wasn't seen as necessary or useful. I'm guessing it was an expense thing. Why spend a whole bunch on a new experimental drive that fixes a problem you don't have? The Relays in the Milky Way go everywhere the MW citizens want to go, and a lot faster than the ODSY drive. So I have no problem with it. Not every person with a prosthetic limb gets a super-cool robotic prosthetic, due to limited supply and costs. Doesn't mean the tech doesn't exist. You mean to say that the quarians, who lost heir homeworld over three centuries ago, and haven't been able to find a suitable replacement that they'd be allowed to settle on (thanks, Citadel Council!) wouldn't be interested in ODSY drives? Or humans and batarians, who fight over garden worlds in the Attican Traverse? Or heck, ANYONE who wants to get away from COuncil authority and explore unknown stars in some forgotten corner of the galaxy. Just like the Andromeda Initiative, but closer to home! Well... Yes. Because of how the drives work. They don't make you go faster or anything, so using them to make other human or Batarian settlements wouldn't be sought-after because these people still want to be close to supply lines and the rest of civilization. As far as we can see in the OT there are no shortages of materials, so going far off the beaten path doesn't really grant anything to most people. As for the Quarians, sure they might get much want an ODSY drive. But these are experimental and EXPENSIVE. The Quarian fleet is centuries-old ships held together with duct tape. Where are they going to get the funds to retrofit their ships when they can barely afford to keep their ships working properly? And as they stick together as a fleet they would need to retrofit all their ships at once to make any difference. As for other explorers, who knows. Perhaps the Andromeda Initiative has a patent on the ODSY drive and aren't sharing. Maybe there are enough unexplored worlds in reach to satisfy other people. I mean, heck, we just stumbled upon Ilos, so there's obviously plenty of other things to find within reach as well. And if they had sold the tech to a small group of scientists who wanted to check out a nearby cluster not linked with a relay, they could have and Shep probably wouldn't have heard about it because why should he/she care?
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Post by maximusarael020 on Mar 25, 2017 17:53:59 GMT
ODSY drives existed in the trilogy lore? WHere? Can someone point me to a cite? thanks. It's not in the trilogy lore. But it IS in Mass Effect lore, as MEA is an official Mass Effect game and thus its lore is canon.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Mar 25, 2017 17:56:19 GMT
The Angarans have weapons, ships, satellites, and technology that is as advanced as the Initiative races, but for some reason have no records of anything that happened before the Scourge? THat's one of those headscratchers. Y2K bug?
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Post by maximusarael020 on Mar 25, 2017 17:58:04 GMT
It's patently clear to me that the writer for this game treats setting as expendable in order to serve whatever decision they separately made. I can't see anything that shows they made extra effort to stay faithful either to existing science or the in universe science. ME1 bent over backward to make sure all the stuff in it is scientific, only making up Ezo as a plot device. But everything else is can be logically derived from EZO. Even things that never show up in game play had a thought out explaination: how laser beam diffract, how heat is managed in space, or build up of static electricity in starships. So yea, this science in this game maybe on par with a typical AAA game, but is definitely below ME standard. Examples please? I'm always just curious to see what other people have noticed.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 25, 2017 18:18:29 GMT
ODSY drives existed in the trilogy lore? WHere? Can someone point me to a cite? thanks. It's not in the trilogy lore. But it IS in Mass Effect lore, as MEA is an official Mass Effect game and thus its lore is canon. So it is not in any way derived from previously established lore.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 25, 2017 18:27:52 GMT
You mean to say that the quarians, who lost heir homeworld over three centuries ago, and haven't been able to find a suitable replacement that they'd be allowed to settle on (thanks, Citadel Council!) wouldn't be interested in ODSY drives? Or humans and batarians, who fight over garden worlds in the Attican Traverse? Or heck, ANYONE who wants to get away from COuncil authority and explore unknown stars in some forgotten corner of the galaxy. Just like the Andromeda Initiative, but closer to home! Well... Yes. Because of how the drives work. They don't make you go faster or anything, so using them to make other human or Batarian settlements wouldn't be sought-after because these people still want to be close to supply lines and the rest of civilization. As far as we can see in the OT there are no shortages of materials, so going far off the beaten path doesn't really grant anything to most people. As for the Quarians, sure they might get much want an ODSY drive. But these are experimental and EXPENSIVE. The Quarian fleet is centuries-old ships held together with duct tape. Where are they going to get the funds to retrofit their ships when they can barely afford to keep their ships working properly? And as they stick together as a fleet they would need to retrofit all their ships at once to make any difference. As for other explorers, who knows. Perhaps the Andromeda Initiative has a patent on the ODSY drive and aren't sharing. Maybe there are enough unexplored worlds in reach to satisfy other people. I mean, heck, we just stumbled upon Ilos, so there's obviously plenty of other things to find within reach as well. And if they had sold the tech to a small group of scientists who wanted to check out a nearby cluster not linked with a relay, they could have and Shep probably wouldn't have heard about it because why should he/she care? They don't gt you there any faster as the crow flies. But it gives you indefinite range. And given current ftl cores kill you if they run more than a couple of days, that means explored space is limited to a few lines of space. There could be any number of worlds just waiting to be colonized only a week's flight away, but totally out of reach because our drive cores WOULD KILL US if we tried to get to them. Funny thing about the quarians, they were building an ark of their own, according to MEA... There are demonstrably NOT enough garden worlds to satisfy everyone, as demonstrated by the quarians being space vagabonds (the Council won't let them settle in Citadel space) batarians and humans fighting over the Attican Traverse. The Council keeps a tight grip on the relay network, limiting exploration of it (see the First Contact War) The ODSY drive being widely available would spark a renaissance of space travel and colonization. From the codex: Citadel space is an unofficial term referring to any region of space controlled by a species that acknowledge the authority of the Citadel Council. At first glance, it appears this territory encompasses most of the galaxy. In reality, however, less than 1% of the stars have been explored. Even mass-effect-FTL drive is slow relative to the volume of the galaxy. Empty space and systems without suitable drive discharge sites are barriers to exploration. Only the mass relays allow ships to jump hundreds of light years in an instant, the key to expanding across an otherwise impassable galaxy. Whenever a new relay is activated, the destination system is rapidly developed. From that hub, FTL drive is used to expand to nearby star clusters. The result is a number of densely-developed clusters thinly spread across the vast expanse of space, connected by the mass relay network. The ODSY drive, like the Lazarus Project, is one of the greatest scientific discoveries of its time. ANd like the Lazarus Project, no one seemed to give a sh*t. I feel like Ultron talking about vibranium in AoU: "One of the most versatile substances on the planet, and they used it to make a frisbee!"
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Post by maximusarael020 on Mar 25, 2017 18:43:37 GMT
It's not in the trilogy lore. But it IS in Mass Effect lore, as MEA is an official Mass Effect game and thus its lore is canon. So it is not in any way derived from previously established lore. Oh it most certainly is! It is based on the lore that FTL Drives create a static charge on the ships that, when it reaches a critical point, fries all the people and tech inside the ship. So this drive is a development based on that lore in which it recycles that energy and puts it back into the drive-core. It's not magic. It's completely using previously-established lore to make the new drive. It is 100% compliant with previously-established lore. Nothing in the lore explicitly states that this technology cannot exist. It works exactly as previous lore describes the issue with FTL.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 25, 2017 18:48:04 GMT
So it is not in any way derived from previously established lore. Oh it most certainly is! It is based on the lore that FTL Drives create a static charge on the ships that, when it reaches a critical point, fries all the people and tech inside the ship. So this drive is a development based on that lore in which it recycles that energy and puts it back into the drive-core. It's not magic. It's completely using previously-established lore to make the new drive. It is 100% compliant with previously-established lore. Nothing in the lore explicitly states that this technology cannot exist. It works exactly as previous lore describes the issue with FTL. But there was never a whisper of it's existence prior to MEA
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