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Post by degs29 on Mar 29, 2017 12:22:50 GMT
EA is EA. They're money-grubbing parasites, but they have the financial means to uphold a studio. Four years and $40 million on an unpolished, AAA title? Bioware blew it. They had a chance to remove themselves from the mass disappointing ending from ME3 and instead recycled the same story. And to Manveer Heir: I would love to meet you in person. You need a hug and lots of therapy.HOW MANY LEADS DOES IT TAKE TO MAKE THIS CRAP? Too many. They all washed their hands of this. It's a rant guys. Ahhh, you're one of those. Do us a favor and put that line first so we can ignore everything else you say.
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Post by finoderi on Mar 29, 2017 12:31:57 GMT
I don't get the point of this thread. What the f... flying difference who is to blame? EA or Bioware? They already did what they did. Now you're arguing again whether you like this pile of pure gold or not. Some people tend to like sloppy work. More power to them! What's the problem?
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Post by pdusen on Mar 29, 2017 12:34:47 GMT
All valid points. Their HR is a complete mess. They're basically there to keep EA out of courtrooms and don't care about being... you know... Human Resources. Four years or even five years?!? And they didn't have time to polish it? They couldn't figure out the scope and what the real limitations were? Bioware is scared out of their minds and they take such petty strategies like shutting down their own forums. Spineless. They're throwing Montreal under the bus and Edmonton's office and EA is still hoping to soothe corporate with a rosy bottom line. See you Bioware. You're on the same path as the studios that have been gutted before you. I cannot believe I'm defending EA. I'm having a stroke...I'd respond, but that word vomit you just spewed makes me genuinely concerned that you might be having a stroke.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Mar 29, 2017 13:43:01 GMT
I don't recall Casey hudsen mentioning EA on his leave. I also remember two key members of leadership leaving soon as ME3 launched, could've sworn they just got tired of fan backlash and wanted to move into other projects in life, plus they had been at bioware for quite some time anyways so passion was fading. I can't speak for ex bioware members, but I'd love to see some of them mentioning it. I think Casey Hudson appeared in a short video with two other former Bioware writers going directly after EA and saying that much of the BW talent bailed because EA was breaking down the company, just as EA has done with others. I remember thinking that it seemed unusual and that they must have been furious, since that sort of thing usually isn't done (as you pointed out). I've done some looking and see no mention of EA being a factor. Sure he could just be playing nice and hiding it, but as I said earlier, when you're a dev and you work for a studio for so long you're going to lose that passion and drive at some point. Many would argue his losing drive was the back end of ME3, I mean, the dude helped make game of the year and award winning candidates when he first got to bioware, bioware made kick ass games in the earlier to mid 2000s that were simply untouchable and now we're here where people doubt biowares abilities. It's quite natural to see positions change, it happens all the time, it's why I dislike seeing people use the saying "this isn't the old bioware I know!" As of course it isn't. People generallly don't stay very long unless they're good at it, have the dedication, and are able to put up with whatever challenges meet them, not to mention people leave all the time to start their own studio or they go into independent development on their own projects. Bungie isn't the bungie of halo, activision and and treyarch aren't the same as they started, point being don't seriously Count on a gaming unit to stay intact for so long as odds are it won't happen. personally I'm optimistic on bioware. While they're pretty much newer people, and much of them are green (Montreal especially), that should only mean they'll get better, but that's a "should". Quite honestly for Andromeda being their first go it really isn't bad for a newer studio with the bulk being newer devs and having to fill in leadership spots on the fly. They've now got experience with the frostbite engine and they should understand the newer console generation, they also have feedback on what we liked and don't like. I'm very optimistic things can only get better because really, if you're a realist and take things into consideration and dive into how Andromeda was made, and who made it, it's quite the feat for such a new team that previously only had experience with ME3 multiplayer and the omega dlc for ME3. There's bound to be growing pains due to them being so new, but Andromeda really is a good achievement for them considering what they are.
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Post by tantumdicverbo on Mar 29, 2017 14:56:48 GMT
I'm not finding it, either, even though someone linked it on these very boards recently. I'll keep looking. It was very direct. Hudson and a couple writers said that the creative staff were "deserting the sinking ship like rats" because EA was destroying Bioware. It was eye-opening, since pros in the industry never talk like that. I'll keep looking for it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2017 17:24:20 GMT
It doesn't matter. I have a feeling it's not one thing that resulted in this flop of a game. Probably a combination of stuff.
I had a bad feeling when top tier ME developers were jumping ship over a year or so ago. Also, David Gaider left and that felt like a bad sign too.
It was all very unsettling.
Probably a shift in how they handle games. Probably a lot of solid ideas were told, "No - do it faster/cut corners." I bet at least one or two of the top devs suggested they delay or abandon the game.... at least for a much later time. If that was the case, then that was shot down.
Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Origins were top of the line. Really loved Jade Empire too, in spite of being a barely noticed one hit wonder. None were open world. None had this multiplayer nonsense. They were just good, solid single player games with great characters and a good flow.
I liked DA2, but that was the epitome of "rushed." Copied and pasted dungeons/houses/caves? Come on now.
I liked ME3, but I fought with the start menu because there was all this nonsense about being signed in to the Internet - it was linked to MP which seemed to contribute to that issue. Then there's the ending issue - which the ending never bugged me but I respect how it irked others.
I liked Dragon Age Inquisition for the most part but there was a lot of fluff and glitches to boot. And how long did it take to get a simple storage chest? And the male elves had weird bodies. And..............the 360/ps3 versions were sad, sad, sad. Apparently lots of issues on PC too.
Then Andromeda comes out and somehow BioWare succeeds at making something worse. The bugs, the dead puppet eyes, the texture pop, the shitty CC, the overwhelming menu system that, in some parts, alphabetically lists your stuff...........
Am I done with bioware? Will I even feel excited if they announce another game? I don't think I will be excited at all. That's sad. I enjoyed their stuff for the most part.
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Sentinel2010
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Story of my life.
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Post by Sentinel2010 on Mar 29, 2017 18:01:04 GMT
When the wall falls, no brick can walk away.
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Post by DoctorFox on Mar 29, 2017 18:23:37 GMT
Bioware was given a huge budget by EA for ME:A and they were given a much longer time scale to develop the game. OP is right, Bioware choked this time.
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Karin Davis
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Got to be KD!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Karin Davis on Mar 29, 2017 18:27:44 GMT
I have little respect for EA outside sports titles. And considering one of the main studios is close to where I live (Toronto - Montreal). Bioware is a different story, they put out excellent game after game, so what if technology gives us bugs and glitches and problems. They are trying, want you all to create your own game and market it, go!
Out!
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Post by Transcendent on Mar 29, 2017 20:12:24 GMT
I don't recall Casey hudsen mentioning EA on his leave. I also remember two key members of leadership leaving soon as ME3 launched, could've sworn they just got tired of fan backlash and wanted to move into other projects in life, plus they had been at bioware for quite some time anyways so passion was fading. I can't speak for ex bioware members, but I'd love to see some of them mentioning it. I think Casey Hudson appeared in a short video with two other former Bioware writers going directly after EA and saying that much of the BW talent bailed because EA was breaking down the company, just as EA has done with others. I remember thinking that it seemed unusual and that they must have been furious, since that sort of thing usually isn't done (as you pointed out). I have no sympathy for Hudson. It's already been proven that he decided on the ending of ME3, despite there being a near unanimous consensus from the rest of the writers to do something much different.
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Post by tantumdicverbo on Mar 29, 2017 20:28:26 GMT
I think Casey Hudson appeared in a short video with two other former Bioware writers going directly after EA and saying that much of the BW talent bailed because EA was breaking down the company, just as EA has done with others. I remember thinking that it seemed unusual and that they must have been furious, since that sort of thing usually isn't done (as you pointed out). I have no sympathy for Hudson. It's already been proven that he decided on the ending of ME3, despite there being a near unanimous consensus from the rest of the writers to do something much different. I was only addressing the idea of how separate EA and Bioware really are, along with the effect of EA on Bioware. I wish I could find that video. It's rare to see people in the business be so direct about their hostilities. Perhaps that's why it's so hard to find it now. From my prespective, there are no good guys in all of this. I just dislike everyone in the Bioware-EA continuum for different reasons.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 29, 2017 21:12:32 GMT
Did they actually have a consensus on what to do? If so, what was it?
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Mar 30, 2017 2:11:25 GMT
I'm not finding it, either, even though someone linked it on these very boards recently. I'll keep looking. It was very direct. Hudson and a couple writers said that the creative staff were "deserting the sinking ship like rats" because EA was destroying Bioware. It was eye-opening, since pros in the industry never talk like that. I'll keep looking for it. Another smart poster here talked about his own experience and said something that people forget to mention, but stated that it's completely stupid to burn bridges. He's right. You have to leave amicably and let it go. I learned my lesson. The company said they would take care of it, but I lost my patience and started ripping his bosses. Now I contract out work for different entities (usually concerned land owners and Native American tribes) and I have to walk a fine line. I hate work.
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Mar 30, 2017 2:12:26 GMT
I have little respect for EA outside sports titles. And considering one of the main studios is close to where I live (Toronto - Montreal). Bioware is a different story, they put out excellent game after game, so what if technology gives us bugs and glitches and problems. They are trying, want you all to create your own game and market it, go! Out! You read my mind. Who has access to Frostbite?
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hector535
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
PSN: Hector535
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Post by hector535 on Mar 30, 2017 2:22:01 GMT
Is there any evidence that the game went through development hell in those 5 years? I remember that there were a lot of changes in personnel and maybe they lost a lot of time and money because of that... If that was the case then I'm not mad or worried but if the problem was that 5 years wasn't enough then that's a problem and I really don't understand how 5 years is not enough to develop and polish when "The Witcher 3 "was made in 3 years (although it had bugs when it came out but it looked visually consistent). My biggest problem with MEA is that the game was downgraded and it is not consistent graphically, sometimes it looks great and sometimes not. DAI is more visually polished (it's more consistent) than MEA.
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Post by hector535 on Mar 30, 2017 2:26:40 GMT
I think Casey Hudson appeared in a short video with two other former Bioware writers going directly after EA and saying that much of the BW talent bailed because EA was breaking down the company, just as EA has done with others. I remember thinking that it seemed unusual and that they must have been furious, since that sort of thing usually isn't done (as you pointed out). I've done some looking and see no mention of EA being a factor. Sure he could just be playing nice and hiding it, but as I said earlier, when you're a dev and you work for a studio for so long you're going to lose that passion and drive at some point. Many would argue his losing drive was the back end of ME3, I mean, the dude helped make game of the year and award winning candidates when he first got to bioware, bioware made kick ass games in the earlier to mid 2000s that were simply untouchable and now we're here where people doubt biowares abilities. It's quite natural to see positions change, it happens all the time, it's why I dislike seeing people use the saying "this isn't the old bioware I know!" As of course it isn't. People generallly don't stay very long unless they're good at it, have the dedication, and are able to put up with whatever challenges meet them, not to mention people leave all the time to start their own studio or they go into independent development on their own projects. Bungie isn't the bungie of halo, activision and and treyarch aren't the same as they started, point being don't seriously Count on a gaming unit to stay intact for so long as odds are it won't happen. personally I'm optimistic on bioware. While they're pretty much newer people, and much of them are green (Montreal especially), that should only mean they'll get better, but that's a "should". Quite honestly for Andromeda being their first go it really isn't bad for a newer studio with the bulk being newer devs and having to fill in leadership spots on the fly. They've now got experience with the frostbite engine and they should understand the newer console generation, they also have feedback on what we liked and don't like. I'm very optimistic things can only get better because really, if you're a realist and take things into consideration and dive into how Andromeda was made, and who made it, it's quite the feat for such a new team that previously only had experience with ME3 multiplayer and the omega dlc for ME3. There's bound to be growing pains due to them being so new, but Andromeda really is a good achievement for them considering what they are. I agree, I really hope that all these changes made the process of making Andromeda difficult. I hope that it doesn't happen again but I feel for them. I'm still excited for anything Mass Effect and anything Bioware. I'm pretty sure they will learn from this, the good thing is that they are good listeners.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Mar 30, 2017 2:31:38 GMT
Is there any evidence that the game went through development hell in those 5 years? I remember that there were a lot of changes in personnel and maybe they lost a lot of time and money because of that... If that was the case then I'm not mad or worried but if the problem was that 5 years wasn't enough then that's a problem and I really don't understand how 5 years is not enough to develop and polish when "The Witcher 3 "was made in 3 years (although it had bugs when it came out but it looked visually consistent). My biggest problem with MEA is that the game was downgraded and it is not consistent graphically, sometimes it looks great and sometimes not. DAI is more visually polished (it's more consistent) than MEA. People have left in the middle of development but personally I don't like that excuse. Good leadership (and even leadership for bioware has been changing) are able to cover up those people who leave.its simple really, if s good writer leaves, look in the market for the next best writer. They're not hard to find if you actively look for them and are willing to pay the money. There's. Also the issue that bio Montreal is a new studio, Andromeda was their first game, their previous experience was mass effect 3s multiplayer and the omega dlc, not exactly a big resume if you ask me when it comes to experience (which is why I'm quite suprised at how well Andromeda is if you're willing to consider that it was a new team that made it. If this was biowares A team that made it people would be losing their minds as they do have experience, they did make mass effect 1-3 after all. There's also the speculation they wasted a year experimenting with how no man sky does its planet exploration and then scrapping it and restarting over. Plus they delayed the game as well which solidifies the fact they weren't ready at the time and were having issues. personally if bioware can open up on this I think it'd give a little closure to some people and maybe others will be more understanding. Doesn't mean we should excuse the errors however.
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Post by bakgrind on Mar 30, 2017 4:33:13 GMT
I have no sympathy for Hudson. It's already been proven that he decided on the ending of ME3, despite there being a near unanimous consensus from the rest of the writers to do something much different. I was only addressing the idea of how separate EA and Bioware really are, along with the effect of EA on Bioware. I wish I could find that video. It's rare to see people in the business be so direct about their hostilities. Perhaps that's why it's so hard to find it now. From my prespective, there are no good guys in all of this. I just dislike everyone in the Bioware-EA continuum for different reasons. Here is an interview where Greg Zeschuk talks about the culture of how Bioware and EA interact with each other. Or how they did when both he and Ray Muzyka were at the helm of Bioware. In it Greg was asked Q:Do you feel that BioWare's games were ever made to conform to some homogenous EA standard with things like forced multiplayer, micro-transactions, smart phone spinoffs, etc.? Did any of this make you jaded? Or you reject this notion? Greg Zeschuk:No, I definitely reject it. And I can explain it too. The best analogy I use, in a positive way, is EA gives you enough rope to hang yourself. It was really interesting because we really made all the choices we wanted to make ourselves; these are all things we wanted to try. And that's something to remember - while we were independent we didn't have quite the resources we had as part of EA, and then we got to EA and it was like "wow we can do all this stuff." We had to be really thoughtful about what we wanted to focus on. Greg Zeschuk Interview Greg and Ray were the first to leave probably because SWTOR did not met expectation. And on top of that there was the fall out over ME3. So it's easy to see why they left. They simply got tired of the hassle of being the head of a studio in the corporate world. And while I'm on the subject of SWTOR here is a interview with James Ohlen on how FTP saved SWTOR. James Ohlen Interview
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
Posts: 2,515 Likes: 2,604
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Mar 30, 2017 4:49:55 GMT
Is there any evidence that the game went through development hell in those 5 years? I remember that there were a lot of changes in personnel and maybe they lost a lot of time and money because of that... If that was the case then I'm not mad or worried but if the problem was that 5 years wasn't enough then that's a problem and I really don't understand how 5 years is not enough to develop and polish when "The Witcher 3 "was made in 3 years (although it had bugs when it came out but it looked visually consistent). My biggest problem with MEA is that the game was downgraded and it is not consistent graphically, sometimes it looks great and sometimes not. DAI is more visually polished (it's more consistent) than MEA. People have left in the middle of development but personally I don't like that excuse. Good leadership (and even leadership for bioware has been changing) are able to cover up those people who leave.its simple really, if s good writer leaves, look in the market for the next best writer. They're not hard to find if you actively look for them and are willing to pay the money. There's. Also the issue that bio Montreal is a new studio, Andromeda was their first game, their previous experience was mass effect 3s multiplayer and the omega dlc, not exactly a big resume if you ask me when it comes to experience (which is why I'm quite suprised at how well Andromeda is if you're willing to consider that it was a new team that made it. If this was biowares A team that made it people would be losing their minds as they do have experience, they did make mass effect 1-3 after all. There's also the speculation they wasted a year experimenting with how no man sky does its planet exploration and then scrapping it and restarting over. Plus they delayed the game as well which solidifies the fact they weren't ready at the time and were having issues. personally if bioware can open up on this I think it'd give a little closure to some people and maybe others will be more understanding. Doesn't mean we should excuse the errors however. I agree. My money is hard earned. I'll throw $100 bills at them if they just explained how the game would be instead of leaving us to assume, "it's going to better..." I volunteered to test patches for Inquisition because I wanted to help. I never, ever got a generic thank you. That's not cool.
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