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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 23:13:24 GMT
I'm happy Hawke has a pretty concrete excuse why Anders can't be there in Inquisition. I feel like it's easily the best one and probably the only explanation why a past PC had to be away from their LI that's ever not sounded mostly like an excuse for game mechanics. lol
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 20:59:35 GMT
It doesn't bother me that Reyes tricked her during the duel. It actually kind of made me like him more. lol I'm more of a "play smart, not hard" kind of person and I don't care about what I see as misplaced honor. Did Reyes make that planet better? Did his methods overthrow a tyrant? If they did, then I don't care if he was honest in making it happen. I feel like Reyes was a better leader and th00population, especially the native population, was better off with him. So, to me, there's nothing wrong with what he did. I know some people question if he was better, but I can't manage to feel sympathy for the previous leader, so it's easier for me to give him the benefit of the doubt. Whatever: I'm for that the tyranny always must be crushed, the people must see the tyrant able to fall. Even if the next perhaps not much better, must to try. This is always a hope. It is very important that people see that the change is possible.This is why we're both huge Anders fans. I feel like most people identify most with certain types of characters and lean out on the opposite side. There's traditionalists (Cullen, Cassandra, Sten), reformists (Dorian, Lelianna, Wynne, Iron Bull), revolutionaries (Anders, Reyes, Calpernia, Solas) and then the "got mine bitches" types, like Isabella and Zevran that people either see as refreshing or annoying. lol I lean hard towards revolutionaries and have a soft spot for the "got mine" types, but tend to side eye reformists and think traditionalists are the worst. I even sometimes find myself rationalizing for Solas lmao. "Maybe he was speaking figuratively when he said he was going to kill everyone.. I mean, those elf gods did sound like jerks, how bad could he be."
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 20:40:26 GMT
I really didn't like Jaal's romance. I struggled to finish it, and if Reyes had had an honorable duel instead of bringing a sniper, I would have dropped Jaal easily and gone for Reyes with no regrets. (sigh, still salty that he's such an honorless rogue. I love honorable rogues.) And I like Fluffy romances, I liked Alistair and Cullen a lot. Jaal was a giant cringe fest. There is a line between sharing your feelings and talking about feelings that made it feel way too much like I was having a conversation with a Camp Counselor instead of a lover. It doesn't bother me that Reyes tricked her during the duel. It actually kind of made me like him more. lol I'm more of a "play smart, not hard" kind of person and I don't care about what I see as misplaced honor. Did Reyes make that planet better? Did his methods overthrow a tyrant? If they did, then I don't care if he was honest in making it happen. I feel like Reyes was a better leader and the population, especially the native population, was better off with him. So, to me, there's nothing wrong with what he did. I know some people question if he was better, but I can't manage to feel sympathy for the previous leader, so it's easier for me to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 20:32:10 GMT
What I would love to have a romanceable companion is an apostate Qunari. It would be really neat to have the perspective of someone who was raised in the Qun and yet turned their back upon it. I really want this too. Even if not a romance, we need a companion like this. We've never gotten a qunari character with a genuinely negative view of the qun and I really want to see it, especially if they had some authority and deeper understanding of the inner workings of qun society before leaving. Every other group we've gotten a pretty nuanced assortment of perspectives from, but the qunari perspective has been pretty one sided.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 19:45:29 GMT
I joined in 2010 following the DA2 lead in. Usually my activity wanes between games. I found this forum after a random Google search for info on Andromeda. I didn't know it was made after the official social network died. I actually met my fiance here, so I'm very glad it was made and I found it. I love the community here and I hope this forum keeps thriving so I can continue to be part of it for many years to come.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 18:00:20 GMT
It's sad Hepler left and more sad that she got a ton of abuse before she did. I would have loved to see more romances from her. Yeah, it's a shame. The romance written by her and whoever did Kaidan's were the only I really enjoyed so far, so it would have been nice to see more of her work... I agree, those were the two best written romances for m/m, imo. Jaal has that emotional openness, too, I think he's just too weird for some people. lol Either in appearance or personality. It feels like the romances where they wrote bi characters and didn't pull back on the m/m side too much are the best. I wish bioware would just write as they would for a straight woman and abandon preconceptions about gay men wanting "less" romance.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 17:46:06 GMT
My problem with them is that it's a specific kind of angsty, reluctance to be emotionally open and affectionate. Zev has his weirdness about not wanting to say the earring means something and then he just cuts you off for a while at one point. Fenris freaks out and nopes out literally for years. At least the two of them lean hard into commitment and openness afterwards, though. Dorian doesn't pull back, but he also never really leans in. I never feel like Dorian's romance is complete, since it ends with tension and him leaving after springing it last second. I like openness in relationships. I like when people say what they feel and don't childishly run away from their feelings. If it's a teens to early twenties couple, I think some haven't grown into being comfortable with themselves, but as adults I expect more emotional security. Fenris I agree on, he’s quite skittish (though understandably so). But Zevran and Dorian talk through their emotional confusion, that’s a trait I like about them. Sure, Dorian uses coded language like talking about the drapes or saying he hates the Inquisitor, but he makes it really obvious what he’s actually saying, and it’s all a bit playful. He’a putting on a mask, but he’s letting the Inquisitor watch him put it on. Same with Zevran and the earring — it’s really obvious what message he’s conveying, and it’s not muddled by the fact that he doesn’t use words to say it. I just don't really enjoy romances with that kind of obfuscation. I don't think they're always inherently wrong in isolation and it's just a matter of subjectI've taste if that's what you're into, but I don't personally enjoy them and a large number of romances for m/m have followed the same pattern, so I hope they'll go another direction with at least one option next time.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 17:39:39 GMT
That interview is so lovely, you can tell sheput alot of effort in there, it's so horrible that she was pretty much harassed by "fans" out of BioWare for being a women Harrased by fans for being a woman? I swear to god, if this is another Jessica Price moment, then I'll smack someone. And for those who don't understand that, Jessica Price was fired from Arenanet's guild wars team because she outright attacked a fan for 'slightly disagreeing' with her, and after being fired she pulled the gender card: "I was fired because I am a woman!" She said basically she wished you could skip combat the way you can skip cut scenes and dialog, since the story is what was important to her about games. It wasn't hostile or directed at anyone, just an offhand remark in an interview. There were definitely non-gender specific critiques of the comment, but also a massive amount that were just "this is why women ruin gaming".
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 17:28:07 GMT
I think Anders is the only bi romance that's actually better if you romance him as a guy. He tells a guy about Karl and seems more open quicker than with a female character. Someone said a while back that his writer was encouraged to make him less romantic with men and it seems like if anything she just leaned in to spite them lmao. 'twas me! Some super official receipts hereAlso, emphasis mine, another reason, why I loved this romance, absolutely true for me too. Beside not telling female Hawke about Karl, he also keeps her at arms length, while treating male Hawke more like an equal ("I won’t let anyone lock me up again, not even you, sweetheart", no such line for male Hawke). There are a few scenes, where he tells f!Hawke that she should stay away, versus just telling m!Hawke, what is troubling him. Thank you! It's sad Hepler left and more sad that she got a ton of abuse before she did. I would have loved to see more romances from her.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 17:24:11 GMT
He wrote all three of his m/m available romances as the same "aloof man learns to love" trope and I'm so over that storyline. Is the aloofness a trope? It always felt more natural to me. You don’t think you love someone, you think you’re being cool about it, then suddenly all at once you realize that you love them very much and it’s a little shocking. ...is this not how everyone experiences love? How does it evolve for other people? My problem with them is that it's a specific kind of angsty, reluctance to be emotionally open and affectionate. Zev has his weirdness about not wanting to say the earring means something and then he just cuts you off for a while at one point. Fenris freaks out and nopes out literally for years. At least the two of them lean hard into commitment and openness afterwards, though. Dorian doesn't pull back, but he also never really leans in. I never feel like Dorian's romance is complete, since it ends with tension and him leaving after springing it last second. I like openness in relationships. I like when people say what they feel and don't childishly run away from their feelings. If it's a teens to early twenties couple, I think some haven't grown into being comfortable with themselves, but as adults I expect more emotional security.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 16:51:00 GMT
Anders is my favorite romance and Zev is second, so I thought this also applied to me. lol I think Anders is the only bi romance that's actually better if you romance him as a guy. He tells a guy about Karl and seems more open quicker than with a female character. Someone said a while back that his writer was encouraged to make him less romantic with men and it seems like if anything she just leaned in to spite them lmao. Zev was a hot mess with some of his writing. I try to avoid the cringy dialogs written to make his bisexuality less impactful. It's obvious he was written for straight women to the point he outright says they're his first choice. I'm glad Gaider gave Anders to someone else in DA2, because honestly I hated his romances. He wrote all three of his m/m available romances as the same "aloof man learns to love" trope and I'm so over that storyline. He also seems way more queasy about writing gay romances, but I just feel sad that he feels he needs to censor and justify gay existence. It's more personal and I get the feeling he has an added layer of feeling like he has to censor and justify himself as a gay writer, which is sad. Gaider is a sassy bitch, as I know from having been personally sassed by him more than once, though, so maybe I'm reading in context that's not there. lol The amount of people I still see dubbing him king SJW despite his history of being distinctly something else just makes me suspect even he doesn't have that thick of skin.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 2:29:00 GMT
I'm a sad Zevran fan because everyone is hating on his romance and he is in my top three romances and I just don't get it. He and Alistair and Fenris have little pieces of my heart with their names stamped on them. What did he do that was so anti gay exactly? He's my second favorite bioware romance after Anders, tbh. I love Zev, but it annoys me how irrelevant they've let him be from introduction until now. Every other origins romance is a big deal in world and Zev never gets anything substantial. Maybe someday we'll go to Antiva and he'll finally get some content again.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 0:15:28 GMT
I don't know if avoiding stereotypes altogether is the way to go, it limits character designing and writing a lot if you are trying to avoid traits and behavior because x character happens to be y. Characters shouldn't be based on stereotypes, that much is true, but trying to avoid stereotypical things like a plague isn't that much better either. I think bioware already limits themselves in some ways due to this. They rarely make feminine men at all, but the more masculine leaning women are never lesbians and generally not even bi. They shouldn't avoid things just because they're stereotypes. They should be aware if they're leaning into specific stereotypes often, but avoiding them at a certain point just does more damage than good and questionably starts sending the message that it's bad to be those things at all.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 0:03:33 GMT
Yeah, it drives me crazy. DA team has always been better than the ME team in terms of non-straight character representation, but even still, the DA devs were saying the 'has to make sense for the character' line during the lead up to Inquisition. I forget who exactly said it, but they were describing the process of creating companions. But it was around the time that Dorian and Sera were revealed, and when we didn't yet know the official sexualities of Cassandra, Blackwall, and Cullen. They have also said in the past that they design the character's personality first, and write their story, and then lastly they decide the details of the romance (which I assume is when the sexuality is decided). Dorian was obviously an exception since his story is very tied up in his sexuality. But this just makes it seem that the writers can't imagine (or don't want to imagine) gay, lesbian, or bisexual characters that don't conform to those same old tropes. I want all the stereotypes shattered in this next game!!!!! I TOLD everyone on OGBSN that that line was a huge red flag, but nobody listened to me! I did.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 5, 2019 21:41:06 GMT
My top choice is elf, but I checked human too once I realized we could just because human is usually safe. lol
As far as concepts go, the game is still so far off it's hard to pick something concrete. An ancient elf, Tevinter elf ex-slave/mage, or a human/elf fog warrior would all be good. I could maybe be swayed by a qunari that has left the qun and is actively critical of it if they slimmed him down from Iron Bull's ridiculousness. They've never had a qunari that genuinely was critical of the qun the way Alistair says the Chantry/templars are shit, or so many Andrastrian mages hate the circles, or Sera shits on elves. Iron Bull was never even as critical of it as Dorian is of Tevinter. I think seeing someone that proves qunari don't need the qun to not be savage, like Iron Bull expressed fear, would be interesting. I'd really love to have that companion, even outside of romance options.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 5, 2019 19:38:05 GMT
It seems like you're trying to get offended at this point, since nobody has said anything negative at all about "straight men" or "white people". lol Not everything is a part of the culture war conspiracy. Feels a little snowflakey. Are you sure? I would love for you to be right on this one. You wrote a lot of text that still misses the basic point that we're just asking for romances with equal optional content to straight romances. It doesn't matter if you can ignore a lot of it. Being in a romance with Morrigan changes the context of your interaction with a character that has a huge amount of content in a way that being in a romance with Zevran doesn't. This is an obvious point if you're not doing mental gymnastics to avoid it just because you have a glaring, unrelated political bias. Well, obviously. Morrigan had a whole DLC dedicated to her Also, it does not change the content at all. It may change how you as a person behind the screen viewed her. But it did not change the content. But it's absurd to argue that the context doesn't matter in a role-playing game. Arguing that imagination and emotion don't matter misses the point of the storytelling medium. Witch Hunt is a powerful narrative if you play as someone that romanced her. It can completely change the fate of your character in a massive way. You can track down the person you love and convince them to have a family together. Two games later, you find out they're still happy and raising a son together. Added to that, if you play an elf, you would have access to a lot of elven history through her that you otherwise wouldn't. Conversely, if you romance Zevran you get some minor hints once in a while that he's off doing crow stuff while the warden does warden stuff and you have very little to do with each other. Bioware makes role playing games. They're basically cinematic choose your own adventure stories. Having options for interesting and varied narratives for your character is the entire point of this medium and you're completely writing that off. How the content impacts your character based on the relationship you have with the character is extremely important because that's the inherent nature of the media.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 5, 2019 18:24:05 GMT
All they complain about is how a certain group of people ruins storytelling with their inane demands . Imagine, these years are also the only years where we have heard complaints about how gay, bisexual, black, asian, etc etc people are portrayed as villains. While white straight people have been portrayed as villains for eternity. I wonder what happened It seems like you're trying to get offended at this point, since nobody has said anything negative at all about "straight men" or "white people". lol Not everything is a part of the culture war conspiracy. Feels a little snowflakey. You wrote a lot of text that still misses the basic point that we're just asking for romances with equal optional content to straight romances. It doesn't matter if you can ignore a lot of it. Being in a romance with Morrigan changes the context of your interaction with a character that has a huge amount of content in a way that being in a romance with Zevran doesn't. This is an obvious point if you're not doing mental gymnastics to avoid it just because you have a glaring, unrelated political bias.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 5, 2019 17:48:16 GMT
On another note, I'm still baffled by the notion that a proper, purely gay or lesbian Love Interest must be mandatory and plot critical. A good role playing game is the player's story, what actions they take, who they consider important or not. Why do you even care if someone decides to dismiss a particular character, or not recruit them in the first place in their own game? "They need to make up for the major straight characters being mandatory", you say? But two wrongs don't make a right, and making those previous straight characters untouchable was a mistake. We should have been able to kick out Alistair's whiny ass, make Aveline and Varric stay out of our lives, or fire Cassandra, Solas and/or Cullen if we wanted. Having mandatory characters of any orientation railroads players; "you will associate with this person, regardless of who you or they are, because my story is more important than your roleplaying. Also, your character is incompetent of finding any other ways of winning, or even surviving, without them".Funny, when comparing modern western CRPGs, Obsidian never had this problem. Pretty much all of the their Companions are completely optional, and you can beat their games without recruiting a single one. I usually do recruit all of them, since they are usually so well written. Hell, Arcade Gannon is one of my personal favorites. I think I have already succesfully argued that characters like Aveline and Cassandra are not "plot relevant" romanceables or even companions. (Aveline is not even romanceable) Most if not all of the companion character has a story related to themselves, only few are actually relevant to the overall plot. Those characters being Alistair, Anders, and Solas. Most of the characters people have described, helps push the story ahead. Cassandra can essentially exist in your playthrough only to justify the creation of the Inquisiton. She is a plot-device at best, from there on out she isn't really relevant. Alistair is plot-relevant because he is connected to the Kingdom of Ferelden and the Grey Wardens, that just makes sense. Solas is plot-relevant due to his connection to the story that is to come. This obsession with 'plot relevant romanceable' is absolutely ridicolous, the term itself is absolutely ridicolous. This notion only gets even more stupid when people DEMANDS that a certain relevant character be a specific kind of sexuality like.... just what the hell? We should not care about the allegory, who in their right mind cares SO deeply about the allegory that they completely throw applicability out the window? I mean, you argued it in the most semantic and obtuse way possible. lol That you can go out of your way to avoid Cassandra is irrelevant to the fact that she's a huge part of the game for anyone playing without the intent purpose of actively avoiding her. It doesn't change that not ignoring her adds a lot more to the game than not ignoring Iron Bull, or Fenris, or Zevran does. That's the case with several straight romances. Not wanting to do Morrigan's ritual, or caring about Mythal/elven lore, or Morrigan's continued role in the series doesn't make that huge bulk of material disappear as an option for those that do care about it. When people say they want plot relevant gay romances, they mean they want romances with options like Morrigan's ritual, or Alistair's royal wedding, or other instances that can substantially change the story of your individual character if you choose that romance. It's obtuse to say Morrigan's ritual, lore inclusion, continued presence in the game and larger bulk of dialog in comparison to Zevran means nothing because you don't have to activate her dialog or do her ritual. Nobody is saying the gay characters have to exist in a way that the entire story is about them and their romance. We want romances like Morrigan that give us the option to substantially change how our individual story plays out through interaction with them.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 5, 2019 17:25:55 GMT
On the rejections, I think it should fit the character and it's not inherently bad to ever have a gay character skirt it in isolation, but it's questionable if only the gay characters skirt it. It's not necessarily out of character for Dorian to play along with anyone stroking his ego or for Suvi to awkwardly try to dodge the issue, but it's a problem if they make a pattern of that.
It would be nice to have some gay rejections like Liam, where he put it out there right away that he was straight, but was super chill about it at the same time. I think basically just that feeling that there's no obfuscation at all about the character's sexuality, but also that it's a nonissue that the rejection had to happen. Of course, it's not always in character for more awkward types to play it off that cool, but they could at least write it that way for the gay romances sometimes.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 5, 2019 16:01:37 GMT
Mainly I just don't want more commitment issues or another "teaching someone how to love" plot, because they're lame and cliche and done to death. Zev, Fenris, Dorian, it seems like we get one of these every time. Surely they can think of a new relationship arc beyond the character just being afraid of relationships. Well there goes any chance of us ever dating.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 5, 2019 15:52:20 GMT
On another note, I'm still baffled by the notion that a proper, purely gay or lesbian Love Interest must be mandatory and plot critical. A good role playing game is the player's story, what actions they take, who they consider important or not. Why do you even care if someone decides to dismiss a particular character, or not recruit them in the first place in their own game? "They need to make up for the major straight characters being mandatory", you say? But two wrongs don't make a right, and making those previous straight characters untouchable was a mistake. We should have been able to kick out Alistair's whiny ass, make Aveline and Varric stay out of our lives, or fire Cassandra, Solas and/or Cullen if we wanted. Having mandatory characters of any orientation railroads players; "you will associate with this person, regardless of who you or they are, because my story is more important than your roleplaying. Also, your character is incompetent of finding any other ways of winning, or even surviving, without them".Funny, when comparing modern western CRPGs, Obsidian never had this problem. Pretty much all of the their Companions are completely optional, and you can beat their games without recruiting a single one. I usually do recruit all of them, since they are usually so well written. Hell, Arcade Gannon is one of my personal favorites. Bioware tells stories differently than Obsidian/Bethesda. I love the Fallout series, but the characters and plot are never really as strong as Bioware's, imo, because they structure it so that you can do whatever you want whenever you want to. It's not that it's a "worse" overall storytelling medium, but there are pros and cons to both ways. I would rather Bioware kept doing Bioware and Bethesda kept doing Bethesda. The Witcher series is way more restrictive than any Bioware game in storytelling methods, though, and it's extremely popular. Obviously completely open ended role playing is not all people are looking for in an RPG.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 5, 2019 15:26:29 GMT
Mainly I just don't want more commitment issues or another "teaching someone how to love" plot, because they're lame and cliche and done to death. Zev, Fenris, Dorian, it seems like we get one of these every time. Surely they can think of a new relationship arc beyond the character just being afraid of relationships.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 23:40:40 GMT
I don't think they'd be more or less okay than they are now, but I'm not sure if I understand what you're looking for? Like i said, a hopefully fun thought experiment, Nothing more or less.
No, but it can give it different context; King Alistair's need for an heir and the Dark Ritual both focus on heterosexual breeding. Likewise, several LGBTQ posters here are admittedly no fans of organized religion, so having a partner that puts God above them might have different interactions.
I mean, I'm not into either of those things. lol I don't think being gay is that relevant to it. Alistair needing an heir doesn't practically effect someone playing a dude differently than someone playing a female non-noble human. Lots of gays are religious and lots of straights aren't. I think nothing much changes by swapping gender availability. Honestly, the only character I can think of that would need a complete character arc overhaul to work the same bi would be Dorian.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 23:06:16 GMT
A little thought experiment that occurred to me: supposes in some alternate reality all of our Dragon Age straight romances were bi. Would any of their respective issues be acceptable costs, given that they still happen to PCs of the opposite gender? Or would they still be problematic for non-straight players? -King Alistair dumps, or demotes to a lover on the side, anyone other than a female Cousland so that he can potentially father an heir. -Morrigan holds the Warden, Alistair or Loghain's lives hostage unless she can conceive an Old God Baby. It's literally "have, or at least facilitate hetero breeding sex, or die". -Sebastian insisting on a celibate marriage. -Cassandra always putting the Maker first. -Blackwall's... well, everything . I don't think they'd be more or less okay than they are now, but I'm not sure if I understand what you're looking for? The same action isn't substantially morally changed by altering the character's sexuality. I'm not sure how there's any question to it. Are you asking if people would still want the options despite flaws? If that's the question, then sure. It's not like the bi/gay options are currently flawless.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 21:49:54 GMT
I think Alistair is the most appealing because he's actually not even religious at all lmao. Like, he openly hates the Chantry. So, he's not really like the others, so much. I think he's less black and white about things and less self righteous. When you try to do something he doesn't like he's usually just worried spoopy witches will get you or something and it's less a moral thing, which doesn't bother me as much. But I'm not super into him because he's pretty boring and his points of interest fall back on being a grumpy bastard prince and done to death tropey shit. Cullen and Cassandra, I just actively dislike, tbh. I wouldn't romance Cullen if he was an option. Not for aesthetic reasons, because basic humans are always just whatever to me as LIs. I just can't stand him and never could. At least none of the bioware KISAs are as bad as Bethesda's KISA holy grail, "I support the literal genocide of anyone with a skin condition", Danse. Seriously do not get the interest in him with so many other LIs in that game. Why not Preston? He's a KISA, imo, and a genuinely good person. Hahaha, I think you know why Danse is more popular than Preston. Well, Danse does pride himself on his superior complexion, as we all know.
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