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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 20:25:48 GMT
Totally agree. Let's have someone like.....Aveline perhaps? Not at all shady, as DA rogues often are (Sebastian doesn't exist, obviously), quite upstanding....basically the lesbian knight in shining armour. *runs off to make a thread* EDIT - I replied via the recent post archive...looks like you've covered this already ) Haha, it's all good. 😋 I'm a huge fan of Aveline, though she's firmly in the adopted sister category for me. I appreciate her biceps tho. I don't usually care that much about class with romances. Mage is the only really story relevant class. With the others, you can have a devout Andrastian, lawful good rogue in Sebastian, or a morally grey mercenary leader with stereotypical "rougish" charm in Iron Bull. You can write them any way and just have them use whatever weapon. If it doesn't effect their background or personality, it's pretty moot. On average, though, I guess I like warriors less often because they're more often lawful good, faith driven and other qualities I just don't go for. They can and have mixed up the stereotypes, but it happens less often, so I usually like mages and rogues about equally and warriors the least. Obviously I'd be happy if lesbians got the KISA this go, because I don't want it lmao. I'm not a fan of the moral upstanding types either, tbh. I've said before that my tastes tend to skew rogueish (as in, the personality type, not the class) or dark and cynical. I'd love a giant qunari warrior or mage lady with a rakish sense of humor and a more dominant personality. Or Calpernia and her morally grey, vaguely-Tevinter-supremacist self. I mostly support the gay/lesbian KISA on behalf of others and because Dragon Age tends to shy away from that and have those Lawful Good religious knight types be straight - but I personally don't jibe with Alistair, Cassandra, Cullen, etc. that much. I think Alistair is the most appealing because he's actually not even religious at all lmao. Like, he openly hates the Chantry. So, he's not really like the others, so much. I think he's less black and white about things and less self righteous. When you try to do something he doesn't like he's usually just worried spoopy witches will get you or something and it's less a moral thing, which doesn't bother me as much. But I'm not super into him because he's pretty boring and his points of interest fall back on being a grumpy bastard prince and done to death tropey shit. Cullen and Cassandra, I just actively dislike, tbh. I wouldn't romance Cullen if he was an option. Not for aesthetic reasons, because basic humans are always just whatever to me as LIs. I just can't stand him and never could. At least none of the bioware KISAs are as bad as Bethesda's KISA holy grail, "I support the literal genocide of anyone with a skin condition", Danse. Seriously do not get the interest in him with so many other LIs in that game. Why not Preston? He's a KISA, imo, and a genuinely good person.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 19:49:17 GMT
I don't usually care that much about class with romances. Mage is the only really story relevant class. With the others, you can have a devout Andrastian, lawful good rogue in Sebastian, or a morally grey mercenary leader with stereotypical "rougish" charm in Iron Bull. You can write them any way and just have them use whatever weapon. If it doesn't effect their background or personality, it's pretty moot.
On average, though, I guess I like warriors less often because they're more often lawful good, faith driven and other qualities I just don't go for. They can and have mixed up the stereotypes, but it happens less often, so I usually like mages and rogues about equally and warriors the least. Obviously I'd be happy if lesbians got the KISA this go, because I don't want it lmao.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 18:44:36 GMT
Nightscrawl sign me up for Cabot, he was hilarious. We could have one poll for player gender and one for PC gender? It might be interesting to see if it changes much. It's not like there's a lot of DA4 info to talk about, so I don't think two threads is that excessive right now. lol Well, I made this one a while back, though it refers to previous romance options rather than future ones. I'm sad Anders and Zev didn't do too well. My ranking of just m/m, since that's all I play, would be: Anders Zev Dorian Fenris Iron Bull
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 18:14:38 GMT
I thought about including options for what gender your PC is in addition to the player's gender, but then the poll would've been twice as long and even more complicated... 😓 I know I've played every gender/sexuality combo at some point or another. We could have one poll for player gender and one for PC gender? It might be interesting to see if it changes much. It's not like there's a lot of DA4 info to talk about, so I don't think two threads is that excessive right now. lol
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 17:37:26 GMT
Well, what else would a race that generally just looks like humans but with shorter torsos, arms and legs whose only way to differ themselves from humans is a long, magnificent beard which humans also can grow, look like? Spoilers: not miniature qunari. What I'm saying is that most Dragon Age Inquisition female dwarves are generally pretty little humans (Valta, Dagna, Harding) while the male dwarves are pretty varied in appearance, not shying away from big beards, big noses and big ears, which are very dwarfy features to me, making male dwarfs look more like what I'd imagine a fantasy dwarf being, instead of just miniature humans, that most female dwarves (in DAI) are. This was basically my thought, too. The dude dwarves often have really exaggerated noses and at least very wide, squared jaws beyond what the human characters have. There's also way more broadness to their bodies than the female dwarves have. Female dwarves have a much more "conventionally attractive" and generally normal human appearance in DA than the male dwarves.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 17:26:20 GMT
It's interesting that male dwarves (for men or women) rate so much lower in comparison to female dwarves (for men and women). I think maybe people are used to short women but not used to short men, or maybe it's the beards that put people off..? Lol. For me, it's not the height at all. I like short guys. I like elves because they're smol. I'm like 5ft 3, so I'm basically dwarf sized, myself. lol It's the broadness and hairiness and general harder facial features. I'm more into androgynous men, so the hyper-masculine appearance doesn't work for me. I feel like boy dorfs are probably in a rough spot because people that like smol men often slant towards liking androgynous men, which is why elfy boys are doing pretty good for men and women. The people into super masculine beardy/squared features/etc. are somewhat more likely to also want height, so they'd probably prefer a qunari or just Blackwall type human. I don't think there's a big number of people that like both smol men and very masculine men combined. Female dwarves don't really look more masculine, or just muscular/angular, in the way males do, though, imo. They're just shorter and slightly more curvy, but they usually have "cute" feminine faces and little obvious muscle. I would guess that's why they rated better with straight guys than qunari women.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 5:10:22 GMT
And yet anti-SJW types still always think Gaider is gay liberal Satan. lol
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 2:37:35 GMT
My first choice is m/m elf and second is human. As for more exotic stuff, a spirit or something could be good, if it was less human looking than Cole, but still pretty human. I'd just have to see what the new stuff looked like.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 1:38:02 GMT
There were absolutely complaints about her skin color on the old BSN and even more complaints when the devs described her as being a black woman. There was a mod to make her white that I remember seeing people loudly declare they were going to use. I'm certain it wasn't anywhere near the majority of straight men, but then I'm not honestly convinced the majority of straight guys hated Cora or Morrigan's "man jaw". Seems like more of a vocal minority. Well, I never managed to follow Mass Effect Andromeda past the many other complaints about the game. Such as the animations, the general dialogue, the combat, the female PC default character being made so extremely ugly compared to it's real life model, while the male PC default was made to be much closer to the real life model. Game had lots of complaints not related to the romanceables. Also, I did not know about Morrigan's man chaw, at least not in DA:O, in DA:I I can see it, but yeah... her face looks rather slim in DA:O. Yes, it was the Inquisition version that got complaints. I didn't think Scott was that close to looking like the model, tbh. I wonder if it's just that straight dudes aren't adept at appraising other dudes, but I thought he was pretty different. I thought he looked better, but ngl, I actually saw some gay guys complaining he wasn't as hot as the super ripped model. So, maybe it's perspective. lol
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 1:30:54 GMT
I'm not really interested in dwarves or qunari. I could see a qunari maybe being interesting from a narrative perspective, but honestly I hate the qun as a philosophy and it seems awfully hard to find a twinky qunari, so I'm dubious. A qunari male mage that doesn't agree with the qun at all and also hates Tevinter for obvious reasons could be appealing. Maybe. I hear you but have you considered this: tiny papas I guess I am now, but I'm not convinced it's enjoyable.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 1:21:38 GMT
Oh, I have. That Merrill looked like an alien or a twelve-year-old, that she was stupid, that she was a blood mage. Complaints about Isabela's face and chin and skin color, complaining about her promiscuity, her not being honest about the relic, etc. That was mostly when DA2 came out. What usually happens is the criticism gets really strong until the next game comes out, and then people get disillusioned with the new game/characters, nostalgia kicks in and all of a sudden people love the previous one. (That's true of almost everything about DA2 lol). I can believe the face thingies, although every single character in DA2 looked insanely horrible. I am not sure what engine or whatever bioware used, but it was horrible. And the criticism to the overall characters, fair enough. But Isabella's skin color? I can't believe someone were actually vocal about hating her skin color. There might have been a single person in in the masses... but. Mmm, well, it was a long time so.... /Shrug There were absolutely complaints about her skin color on the old BSN and even more complaints when the devs described her as being a black woman. There was a mod to make her white that I remember seeing people loudly declare they were going to use. I'm certain it wasn't anywhere near the majority of straight men, but then I'm not honestly convinced the majority of straight guys hated Cora or Morrigan's "man jaw". Seems like more of a vocal minority.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 1:09:42 GMT
I'm not really interested in dwarves or qunari. I could see a qunari maybe being interesting from a narrative perspective, but honestly I hate the qun as a philosophy and it seems awfully hard to find a twinky qunari, so I'm dubious. A qunari male mage that doesn't agree with the qun at all and also hates Tevinter for obvious reasons could be appealing. Maybe.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 0:44:28 GMT
It's mostly about some posts by PT regulars in the About Moderation thread complaining about twinks and furries being talked about over here, but I don't want to get banned on my first day back, so I'll leave it at that. lol Oh hey now I remember you now, thought u seemed familiar. Is it a raid BSN day or something lol. Idk what's going on but it seems dumb. Give gay elf please. Nah, I've been requesting twinky elves since the old bsn and didn't really anticipate rustled jimmies. I just randomly showed up today and there's background dramz. It is pretty dumb, tbh.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 4, 2019 0:31:49 GMT
I don't understand the turn of this conversation. \ I said a gay werewolf romance could be interpreted as problematic and make negative implications, because I was told a nonhuman gay KISA would have negative implications, and now ppl be all passive aggressive. It's cool though, gotta reap what I sow. It's mostly about some posts by PT regulars in the About Moderation thread complaining about twinks and furries being talked about over here, but I don't want to get banned on my first day back, so I'll leave it at that. lol
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Post by caladrius on Jan 3, 2019 22:15:12 GMT
There's also Cyberpunk 2077 to look forward to, and I'm curious as to how they'll deal with romances. I can only guess at how they'll handle the romances. My issue with it is that right off the bat, they've taken an RP choice out of my hands. I have to play a person who would get drunk at a party and have a one night stand with a stranger. That doesn't give me much to work with that I like. And if they're going to take that much control of the RP, then I'd probably end up with "flirt options" like I got with Shepard that basicly boiled down to, "wanna fuck?". Which is what they were with the human and the cockroach. My concern with Cyberpunk 2077 is that there will be a ton of "wanna smash" cut scenes and very little romance. They say most romances will be bi, but most romances will probably also be hit it and quit it style. The Witcher as a franchise only had a couple romances that mattered. If Cyberpunk 2077 is like that, will the few romances that are actually romances be bi, will they be mixed genders? I don't want to be too optimistic.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 3, 2019 21:56:31 GMT
you M/M romance fans on here, have you ever played Technomancer? Locked male protaganist has THE SWEETEST romance with a co character named Andrew that I just adore. *explodes from memories of the adorbs* I remember when Bound By Flame came out someone here posted an email from Spiders saying they wanted to include the LGBT audience in their next game. (@daveliam was that you?) I'm glad they did, but it's too bad they couldn't do gender select too. Hopefully they'll keep getting more inclusive. I think Spiders has potential and I'm keeping an open mind to Geeedfall, although I don't want to set myself up for disappointment. lol
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Post by caladrius on Jan 3, 2019 21:31:44 GMT
Kaidan is an example of a romance I enjoyed even though Kaidan as a concept isn't really something that appeals to my taste. Scruffy, lawful good, srs bsns are all usually "no thanks" checks for me. I appreciated that the romance had an emotional depth and tenderness that m/m relationships in media as a whole usually lack. It always tugs the heartstrings a little when he asks Shep not to leave him behind in the final stretch. Usually the m/m relationships are written with major commitment issues and emotional distance for at least a huge chunk of the romance (Dorian, Fenris, Zevran) if the character's sexuality isn't almost approached entirely as a joke (Iron Bull, Zevran). Men aren't supposed to be in touch with their feelings, in general, so two men being so at once? What is this madness? Kaidan had a genuine feel that he actually loved Shep and felt no need to obfuscate it with jokes, or temper tantrums, or general aloofness, so I really appreciated that about his romance. Yep, I enjoyed that too. It's also the reason I enjoyed Anders' romance. The plot is heavy, but there's a lot of romantic lines and just genuine affection, without any attempts to make it less meaningful. Jennifer Hepler did say that when she was writing the m/m flavour some around her suggested making it less romantic than the f/m version, but she decided not to do that. I don't know, maybe there's a consensus in BW that gay and bi men want light-hearted romances and not heavy declarations of love and devotion? Kaidan is an outlier too, but kinda like Jaal he might not have been an option, if we hadn't complained about 0 options in ME1 and 2. I also really loved that about the Anders romance, which is still my number one across all bioware games. It's strange they'd get the impression that gay and bi men don't want emotional depth and commitment from romances, given it seems to be the one thing everyone here is strongly agreeing on, despite extremely disparate taste in most other ways. Not strange in terms of stereotypes of the gay community being promiscuous/noncommittal, though, I guess. And, yeah, I've never believed Jaal was always going to be available. If it wasn't for the social media backlash, I still don't believe he'd have been a m/m option. lol I mean, his writer may very well have had the intention early, but I think they scrapped for time with full intention of Reyes and Gil being it in the final product well before release. Of course, it is just speculation.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 3, 2019 21:20:10 GMT
I don't believe I've ever seen a tweet with a quote that said that's why they made Solas straight. This sounds like a rumor. Everything I've seen was that Solas was a tacked on last minute thing. And his romance shows it with a lack of quantity and only having one romance specific to him scene. Thank you! I knew this wasn't just a fever dream I had and believed out of hand for years. lol
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Post by caladrius on Jan 3, 2019 21:05:30 GMT
Solas was a huge mistake, imo. The fact that he was made straight to avoid a "depraved bisexual" trope along side the context of Iron Bull being one big sex joke that never ends will never stop annoying me. Apparently Solas' writer said that he was never intended to be anything but straight (source: a pissed off Solasmancer) so I don't know anymore. But regardless, it was a dumb move to make Solas romanceable at all honestly. I think the Solas romance is a really interesting narrative, but it seems almost impossible to follow through in a way that respects it. So, honestly, he probably shouldn't have been a romance.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 3, 2019 20:54:08 GMT
Like a Gay version of the Female Cousland/King Alistair thing? That'd be super neat, I'd roll a guy for another stab at that Fantasy Aww, but I don't want you to compromise. I guess I want to say I would drool all over your Armored Ancient Elf and be disappointed I couldn't be my natural gender so I could fantasy some future post game babies for them. I would think that if the theory of elves being originally spirits were correct, they all would have defaulted to bi/pan anyway but I suppose if we take Solas being gender/race gated as lore locked not just Budget Locked, I can't assume spirits have no sexual preferences. Something like that yeah. But, they could already be doing this with Dorian, if you can elevate him to being a Black Divine or something, and let the Inquisitor be his partner in holiness. Solas and Sera kind of wreck that theory, sadly. I think in all fairness, if he is as lore relevant as Solas, then he SHOULD be bi. Because Solas was a mistake, let's not repeat it. Solas, was, a, mistake. Solas was a huge mistake, imo. The fact that he was made straight to avoid a "depraved bisexual" trope along side the context of Iron Bull being one big sex joke that never ends will never stop annoying me.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 3, 2019 20:41:27 GMT
As much as I thought Reyes was perfect for me in concept (even though he's not a twink at all lol) and I know you loved Gil, it's always disappointing to me when our choices are shoved off on under developed side characters. Yeah, it's why I always go with Kaidan, even though I really like Steve. The difference in quantity of content and plot relevance is pretty steep here. I hope after the whole Jaal situation they'll remember to at least add a squad m/m LI... Kaidan is an example of a romance I enjoyed even though Kaidan as a concept isn't really something that appeals to my taste. Scruffy, lawful good, srs bsns are all usually "no thanks" checks for me. I appreciated that the romance had an emotional depth and tenderness that m/m relationships in media as a whole usually lack. It always tugs the heartstrings a little when he asks Shep not to leave him behind in the final stretch. Usually the m/m relationships are written with major commitment issues and emotional distance for at least a huge chunk of the romance (Dorian, Fenris, Zevran) if the character's sexuality isn't almost approached entirely as a joke (Iron Bull, Zevran). Men aren't supposed to be in touch with their feelings, in general, so two men being so at once? What is this madness? Kaidan had a genuine feel that he actually loved Shep and felt no need to obfuscate it with jokes, or temper tantrums, or general aloofness, so I really appreciated that about his romance.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 3, 2019 19:43:48 GMT
Ginger dwarf bear has to have at least one request, am I right? I show up every game release to haunt the romance discussion with twink requests, but honestly my genuine request is always just that we get one quality, plot relevant m/m option from the companion pool. There were things I did and didn't like about Dorian, but I think he filled that well. Anders was the most plot intensive character we've had as an m/m romance at launch, which made him really special to me. Jaal really is equivalent, but it was hard to swallow all the drama that lead up to him finally being added. As much as I thought Reyes was perfect for me in concept (even though he's not a twink at all lol) and I know you loved Gil, it's always disappointing to me when our choices are shoved off on under developed side characters. Joking requests aside, I'll always take a well written romance with a narratively important character over a skippable NPC that happens to appeal more to my specific aesthetic taste. Hopefully we'll get a few good options and at least a couple demographics will get their specific request, but at least we can hope it's not more side characters while the mains default back to safely straight. And some people wonder why I find the whole "plot relevant love interest" concept to be weird. Because in the scope of things... all of them are equally irrelevant to the overall plot. Some may show up in the beginning to help push the story along, but then... you don't have to talk or look at them ever again. This is true for many of the characters introduced in DA. Alistair is probably the only exception, with him being relevant to Loghain, the entire kingdom of Ferelden, having to give some grandeur speech when saving Denerim and of course... him also being a grey warden and we kinda had to deal with a blight. You don't really have to care about the added content individual characters contribute to the games, but for me it's more enjoyable when the romance is heavily integrated into the entire length of the game and the relationship you build with them has more meat to it. It does matter to me that it could be possible to see them again and again in the series with updates on the relationship with past PCs. The only Origins romance that has not had a major recurring role in the series was the only romance available to m/m players. In Andromeda, one of the only two NPC romances for m/m at release was only available to interact with for one quest line on one planet. Where as at least advisers got commentary after each major quest, Reyes didn't get to comment that you died at one point, or show up for movie night, or any of the other developmental moments that gave the romance narrative gravity. This doesn't have to matter to everyone, but it makes a big difference to how much I enjoy the games, and if it's really not a big deal then maybe someone besides m/m players can get these romances for a change.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 3, 2019 19:21:09 GMT
Is it too soon to launch the twinky elf mage boyfriend for DA4 campaign, idk guys. It's not for me, but I support your campaign!
I also agree that Fenris is a twink. And, frankly, Zevran is a little twink-y as well. Which is probably why they are the least attractive m/m options (looks wise, at least) to me. Elf design in DA (where they are shorter, slimmer, and hairless), just skew twink so if we got any elf options, they'd likely hit this "type".
One interesting thing in reading this thread is how varied the requests are for the m/m options compared to the requests for the other options. For M/F, we mostly hear "traditionally attractive" and "human or elf". For F/F, we mostly hear "warrior", "butch", "strong and tall". I can't actually think of many F/M requests, right now., other than some general appreciation towards the fish guy from Shape of Water.
But for M/M, we get "twink elf mage", "KISA", "human", "dwarf or qunari", "werewolf", "femme", "butch", etc.
It's clear that some people will be disappointed with what we get in DA4. Hopefully that doesn't lead them to wanting to burn the place down. And, also hopefully, it demonstrates to Bioware that they can take a risk with a "non-traditional" option or two.
Ginger dwarf bear has to have at least one request, am I right? I show up every game release to haunt the romance discussion with twink requests, but honestly my genuine request is always just that we get one quality, plot relevant m/m option from the companion pool. There were things I did and didn't like about Dorian, but I think he filled that well. Anders was the most plot intensive character we've had as an m/m romance at launch, which made him really special to me. Jaal really is equivalent, but it was hard to swallow all the drama that lead up to him finally being added. As much as I thought Reyes was perfect for me in concept (even though he's not a twink at all lol) and I know you loved Gil, it's always disappointing to me when our choices are shoved off on under developed side characters. Joking requests aside, I'll always take a well written romance with a narratively important character over a skippable NPC that happens to appeal more to my specific aesthetic taste. Hopefully we'll get a few good options and at least a couple demographics will get their specific request, but at least we can hope it's not more side characters while the mains default back to safely straight.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 3, 2019 18:20:32 GMT
It doesn't mean underage. It's basically just the opposite of "bear" in gay slang. I know, it is why I decided to specify in brackets. But the definition is still a teen man with a boyish appearance. The boyish appearance part being what could potentially make the whole thing a PR disaster. If you want a twink gay character it probably won't be a twink, just an effeminate looking male. I don't think twink has an academically accepted definition, but we can drop the focus on that word. I honestly only use it jokingly. lol The expectation is just that he'll be somewhat feminine looking and around the same age as the entire cast. Fenris was twinky looking, tbh. I just didn't like him because he was whiny and noncommittal and terrorist boyfriend is my number one waifu. Something in that realm would be good, though.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 3, 2019 18:12:55 GMT
I think there's a pretty difference between looking like a twink and being feminine. And regardless, I don't think many people associate classic femininity with homosexuality, but rather flamboyance. Dorian was flamboyant, not feminine, for instant. Besides, making a character just feminine or just masculine is pretty meh, you need to make characters, not feminine characters or masculine characters! Yeah, I think when people think of "stereotypically effeminate gay men" they usually think of the romcom gay best friend archetype with the lisp, and sassy one liners, and love of musicals. It's not just having a twink appearance. A lot of gay stereotypes in media are pretty average in appearance and personality. I don't think it would be appealing to a stereotype at all if it wasn't written or voice acted in that context.
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