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Post by caladrius on Feb 21, 2019 19:13:56 GMT
I just don’t honestly see how it effects me that other people have headcanons about characters that I don’t have, or that the author probably never thought about. Like, if someone wants to believe Isabela is the rough equivalent of racially North African and someone else wants to believe she’s West African, neither of these things effect me even a little. If someone wants to believe she’s just a really tan white woman, still this does not actually effect me. If someone believes Solas is secretly a trans man, again, nothing changes for me. Some of the things you mentioned are visual, so they can’t really be changed in game and asking for resources to do that is kind of counter productive to the original point, but basically I just don’t care what other people choose to believe about their own game states. I think role playing games being open ended enough that people can make believe whatever wild scenarios they want is ultimately a good thing and gives the game the widest possible appeal. I don’t think there’s really anything wrong with allowing all groups to comfortably headcanon in their preferred identity politics without shutting anything down overtly, either, although there’s some genuine concern over expecting the writers to lean too vague on that kind of thing. I think that’s more in terms of expecting them to respect “white Isabela” and “trans Solas” level fantasies than just openly available LIs, though. Everyone can already headcanon whatever they want about the characters whether or not they are bi gay or straight. People already mod the game to include bi Dorian, bi Cullen, bi Sera and write their own fanfiction about it. Roleplaying games being open-ended works for roleplaying games that are open-ended in almost every other aspect of it's design. A game where you literally have the freedom to do everything in any order you want to. There's no other path than the path you choose. A game like this would be Skyrim. But, in terms of Dragon Age, where despite being a roleplaying game, you are still pretty shackled to the main story, and the big appeal of the franchise is characters who aren't just brief NPCs, with their own identity and opinions that aren't necessarily dictated by the player. This is Dragon Age's strength, not a weakness, and the addition of sexuality adds immersion and a thorough identity to the characters, that play a big part of the appeal, the story and roleplaying your own character. I don't really have any issue with Skyrim being all-bi, because the characters you can '' romance '' are hardly important to the world, or to your own roleplaying outside of adding a nice little addition to the follower system and character building. But it's definitely not an important aspect of the game, so these characters having an identity you can basically mold any way you want is not only fine, but encouraged. Dragon Age is basically the opposite of this, where characters have and should have a strong presence in the story and roleplaying. To make their sexualities a commodity and completely irrelevant, just so can people can headcanon everything about them themselves, breaks my immersion, and I don't much care for it and I don't think Dragon Age should go down that road. But nevertheless, a few last questions 1) what kind of games then CAN have gay characters, if not roleplaying games with romances 2) is Fenris gay? is Anders straight? is Isabela straight? is Merrill a lesbian? Tell me. I just don’t see how the DA2 characters were in any way less developed despite some of them being written fairly ambiguous. I don’t see that in Fallout 4, either. It doesn’t seem particularly limiting to me. I don’t think any games actually have a full cast of characters that clearly state they’re gay/straight/bi and I think that would be more jarring than having some or all relatively open ended, like DA2 and Fallout 4. As for what games can have gay characters, any game can have them. I’m definitely not suggesting there shouldn’t be gay characters in bioware games. There can be gay characters in games like The Last of Us and Overwatch and any game that has humanoid characters that reference sexuality in any capacity, basically.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 21, 2019 18:49:55 GMT
I mean, I think the difference is pretty obvious that you’re clearly a male or female avatar. The difference is whether or not the information in the playthrough directly contradicts your “imagination”. So, if a character like Isabela or Anders directly talks about having sex with dudes and ladies, they are obviously bisexual in that playthrough. A character that never talks about sex or attraction, you could conceivably believe is anything.Although, tbh, I really don’t care if someone wants to pick a male/female character and pretend to be the other or pretend to be trans or whatever. However other people like to play, man. It doesn’t effect me, so they can knock themselves out. But they aren't just anything. There's a lot of things that go into making a character and building their identity, and sexuality is one of them, it's not just a commodity. If we are to believe sexuality is irrelevant then what's stopping a lot of other parts of their identity being something you yourself could mold? Race, gender, appearance, color of their skin, the size of their breasts... might as well open everything up at that point. I just don’t honestly see how it effects me that other people have headcanons about characters that I don’t have, or that the author probably never thought about. Like, if someone wants to believe Isabela is the rough equivalent of racially North African and someone else wants to believe she’s West African, neither of these things effect me even a little. If someone wants to believe she’s just a really tan white woman, still this does not actually effect me. If someone believes Solas is secretly a trans man, again, nothing changes for me. Some of the things you mentioned are visual, so they can’t really be changed in game and asking for resources to do that is kind of counter productive to the original point, but basically I just don’t care what other people choose to believe about their own game states. I think role playing games being open ended enough that people can make believe whatever wild scenarios they want is ultimately a good thing and gives the game the widest possible appeal. I don’t think there’s really anything wrong with allowing all groups to comfortably headcanon in their preferred identity politics without shutting anything down overtly, either, although there’s some genuine concern over expecting the writers to lean too vague on that kind of thing. I think that’s more in terms of expecting them to respect “white Isabela” and “trans Solas” level fantasies than just openly available LIs, though.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 21, 2019 18:26:49 GMT
I think it’s really just down to whether you see every playthrough as it’s own capsule world where things can be entirely different or if you meta all possibilities to inform your views on characters/situations. You can’t be a male and female character in the same playthrough, so there’s no evidence a character is any sexuality if it’s not written in that playthrough. An actual person’s sexuality can’t change, but these aren’t real people. They’re not really “bisexual”, they’re imaginary and I don’t see why it matters what sexuality you imagine them to be in your various play throughs if there’s no evidence otherwise. If you want to see them as bisexual, that’s also fine. If the concern is representation, there’s no reason it can’t be there among NPCs that are not romances. Dorian could exist exactly as is and just not be a romance. Bi and straight people could make their sexuality clear throughout the game too. If we are going down the route of make believe, why can't people just IMAGINE that the playable character they are playing as is actually the opposite/same sex when they are romancing a gay/straight character? What makes gender something you can't just make-believe, but bisexuality is something you CAN override, it's just a commodity? Dorian can't be the sole gay male character, let's not go there. And I wouldn't mind if NPCs were openly gay, and that'd be that in terms of representation. But how many non-straight NPCs do we even know? And then there's the issue of how the fuck are you going to openly represent and label a character as gay/lesbian/trans without being incredibly tacky and obnoxious. I mean, I think the difference is pretty obvious that you’re clearly a male or female avatar. The difference is whether or not the information in the playthrough directly contradicts your “imagination”. So, if a character like Isabela or Anders directly talks about having sex with dudes and ladies, they are obviously bisexual in that playthrough. A character that never talks about sex or attraction, you could conceivably believe is anything. Although, tbh, I really don’t care if someone wants to pick a male/female character and pretend to be the other or pretend to be trans or whatever. However other people like to play, man. It doesn’t effect me, so they can knock themselves out.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 21, 2019 18:13:56 GMT
I like the all bi/player sexual method of romance distribution. I think it’s the easiest way to give the widest array of options. It’s easier to have them available to everyone and have some with sexual histories that you can headcanon as them being bi/gay/straight depending what they talk about, while others are left completely blank slates. I’m for leaving the option to have some read as asexual or sexual based on your choices too. I think this is a good compromise over needing a large number of choices to fit every orientation. I think it worked well in Fallout 4 and most games seem to be leaning more towards this option. I really don’t understand why some people are against using their imagination in this context and need it to be official. It’s a role playing game where literally nothing is real and the world and characters are shaped by our choices. It’s weird to me that some people resist this aspect of that so hard, especially because nobody seems to care much when it happens in other games. But they are not gay or straight if they are open for both genders? That is literally bi-erasure by every sense of the word. But, like you said, you really don't understand, and I'm going to assume that you have no need or want to understand. I think it’s really just down to whether you see every playthrough as it’s own capsule world where things can be entirely different or if you meta all possibilities to inform your views on characters/situations. You can’t be a male and female character in the same playthrough, so there’s no evidence a character is any sexuality if it’s not written in that playthrough. An actual person’s sexuality can’t change, but these aren’t real people. They’re not really “bisexual”, they’re imaginary and I don’t see why it matters what sexuality you imagine them to be in your various play throughs if there’s no evidence otherwise. If you want to see them as bisexual, that’s also fine. If the concern is representation, there’s no reason it can’t be there among NPCs that are not romances. Dorian could exist exactly as is and just not be a romance. Bi and straight people could make their sexuality clear throughout the game too.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 21, 2019 17:47:22 GMT
I like the all bi/player sexual method of romance distribution. I think it’s the easiest way to give the widest array of options. It’s easier to have them available to everyone and have some with sexual histories that you can headcanon as them being bi/gay/straight depending what they talk about, while others are left completely blank slates. I’m for leaving the option to have some read as asexual or sexual based on your choices too. I think this is a good compromise over needing a large number of choices to fit every orientation. I think it worked well in Fallout 4 and most games seem to be leaning more towards this option.
I really don’t understand why some people are against using their imagination in this context and need it to be official. It’s a role playing game where literally nothing is real and the world and characters are shaped by our choices. It’s weird to me that some people resist this aspect of that so hard, especially because nobody seems to care much when it happens in other games.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 21, 2019 17:30:21 GMT
A lot of people use all kinds of media as a form of escapism. And for some people, they want to escape into a world with women who don't look like barbies, a world with several LGBT characters, a world with a lot of POC.. but some people see their existence as a political agenda. So who gets to use entertainment as an escapism method? We shall never know. Well, that’s the problem, isn’t it? We all can’t get what we want. I want the series to stay roughly where it is right now, with perhaps a touch more darkness. Some want it to become the Sword of Truth, while others want it become She-Ra and the Princesses of Power. My fear is that the devs (and Weekes in particular) will prioritize the latter group, which in my opinion would be as bad as the other option. I think most of your fears as stated so far are pretty paranoid and based on things literally nobody is asking for, in some cases. I’ve never seen anyone ask for brood mothers to bee removed because they’re sexist in nearly a decade following the community, so what is the point of stressing that maybe in the near dystopian future there will be a massive push for it? There’s no indication DA would consider leaving out hetero romances or minimizing them to Harding style flings. It’s also something I’ve only seen trolls and joke posts ask for. DA probably will stay roughly the same as it’s always been and everyone will probably get 2-3 romances from companions and major advisor NPCs, like Cullen and Josephine. The panic of a massive shift is paranoid and, honestly, something nobody is even really asking for.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 21, 2019 6:28:38 GMT
I'm gunning for a seat at the table, and if I have to push someone off theirs, I fucking will. And therein lies the problem. I’m happy with you sitting at the table, but you don’t seem to think your chair is big enough, and you want to bring in a new one that’ll force me to go sit somewhere else. Unfortunately, the waiter is far more willing to listen to your concerns than mine, even though I was here first. Sometimes I wish Bioware would just remove all the romances. That would only partially alleviate my concerns about Patrick Weekes. Straight guys are going to get at least two options because they’ve said on the DA team that they make it policy to give everyone two. I don’t doubt that, nor do I want them to just leave out straight guys. Believing you were “there first” just because you’ve traditionally gotten more than other demographics just shows an incredible amount of entitlement, though.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 20, 2019 23:18:36 GMT
I guess I have some concerns, but considering he was basically lead writer on Trespasser, which I thought was great, not many. I did feel DAI lost some of the gritty aesthetic of the first two games but I don’t think that’s on Patrick. I can see some of the political concerns, I am one of those who that thought the reveal of Krem as trans was awkward and a bit preachy, on the other hand I thought Mae was handled well so hopefully they can build on that. I agree with you on the grittiness. I hope Patrick brings it back. As for the political concerns... IMO, Krem felt really bland beyond being trans. It made me feel like he was there just so the game can have a trans character, without even trying to add more to his character. Which makes me (perhaps unnecessarily) scared, because I really dig Maevaris (especially after reading her WoT2 snippet) and I don't want the writers to drop the ball with her like I feel they did with Krem or (god almighty forbid it) Hainly Abrams in Andromeda. I feel like you’re over analyzing this character because it’s a trans character. Yeah, Krem is boring, but he’s just a minor quest giver and an example of how Iron Bull is supposedly a nice guy that wanted to help people in Tevinter even if the qun doesn’t “demand it”, unlike Sten or the Arishok. He’s like the random elf guy Bull helped as a kid. He’s not a major character with an important background, he’s just a narrative tool for Iron Bull’s history and a face for the Chargers that you see Bull interact with, so it makes sense that he cares if they die later. He wasn’t ever supposed to be groundbreaking.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 19, 2019 20:46:24 GMT
Why do you find the sex scenes so important to the romance? I just don’t find they particularly add anything of narrative value, so it’s hard for me to relate to how much you value them. Imagine at the end of act 2 of da2, rather than experience the confrontation with the Aristok the camera had faded to black and Varric simply announced, let’s move on to act 3. To me it’s not really fundamentally different, sex is a major component of the overwhelming majority of relationships. Having that element represented is important to the narrative experience. Personally i don’t think it’s anymore dispensable than kissing and flirting etc. I don’t think cutting out gameplay is really comparable. The gameplay is arguably the main grounding mechanic of the entire game. A bioware dev once suggested (and was subsequently driven out of the industry by death threats and harassment for doing so) that they’d like to be able to skip combat. I think that would be fine as a choice, to be honest, but I think way more people probably care that they have the option to do it than that they have sex cut scenes in game. It’s just so universally ubiquitous to what a video game is to have combat, where as fade to black or skip ahead narratives for sex scenes are pretty standard in all sorts of visual media and I doubt most would see it as weird. I do understand some people really enjoy these scenes and there’s nothing wrong with that, but I don’t think they’re comparably important to the overall game quality in an objective sense, or just to the majority of players.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 19, 2019 18:39:51 GMT
I’d rather just have fade to black scenes because the resources used for sex scenes are often why they can’t do as many romances as they otherwise would. They also had to race lock some for animation issues. I don’t care about the scenes, so my first choice would be for those resources to be used to add more romances, or even expand on those characters story arcs. I also don’t care if they exist if they can make them happen while not cutting romances or adding race locks that don’t make sense, though. Butchering an important part of the romance with empty fade to blacks isn’t something that I would consider tolerable. i’m still annoyed about getting faded to black and dumped in the hallway in me3 Why do you find the sex scenes so important to the romance? I just don’t find they particularly add anything of narrative value, so it’s hard for me to relate to how much you value them.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 19, 2019 0:56:14 GMT
I’d rather just have fade to black scenes because the resources used for sex scenes are often why they can’t do as many romances as they otherwise would. They also had to race lock some for animation issues. I don’t care about the scenes, so my first choice would be for those resources to be used to add more romances, or even expand on those characters story arcs. I also don’t care if they exist if they can make them happen while not cutting romances or adding race locks that don’t make sense, though.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 11, 2019 7:03:34 GMT
And consider the toxic masculinaity which compels some poor straight men to say they hate romance and just engage in it so they can "get that ass" etc. C'mooon, men can and do love romance. Toxic masculinity. Anything is toxic if someone attempts to dictate anything of a gender. Generally, statistically, I would believe that men care less for the typical notion of 'romance' but they won't necessarily accept to just 'get that ass' Most romance ever acted out by men is for the woman, not necessarily the man himself. Mind you, I am just speaking generally, there are always the exceptions. But toxic masculinity is a bullshit term invented to slander men for being men, I advice not using it at all. It doesn't "slander men". It's literally a term that exists to explain how expectations of gender role performance hurts men. There's no implications in the concept that men are naturally inclined towards anything negative, but that gender roles hurt men, especially through men bullying each other into specific roles. Toxic femininity can be applied similarly, when women pressure other women into performance of gender roles.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 11, 2019 3:04:18 GMT
I think Bioware has traditionally been by far the best at creating richly developed characters and romances that genuinely add depth to the narrative. DA2 (Anders) is my favorite romance in a game, but I actually find the romances in Fallout 4 to be comparable to average for Bioware. I love how much variety is available. I know these are both controversial opinions, but I think Bethesda has an advantage by not having varied sexualities and by not making cut scenes for romances. Bioware is so limited in comparison in how many base options they'll have resources for and, imo, the reason doesn't make the characters any deeper. Good dialog and voice acting sells a romance arc, but I couldn't care less about seeing a pixel butt, personally. I don't care about pixel butt either (nor am I anti-pixel butt) but tbh there are something I love about animation, those little romantic gestures... part of why I love the Reyes romance. The surprise!kiss, the grabbing his hand and running, sharing drinks on a rooftop, another kiss, the dance... I love that stuff! I think that's fair. There are interactions that can't be done just through standard dialog in a way that develop personality and tone. I think it's the high risk, high reward approach. If it fits your taste then it's got the potential to be amazing, but you will only probably have two or rarely three options, so a lot of people won't get something that fits them.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 11, 2019 2:43:33 GMT
I think Bioware has traditionally been by far the best at creating richly developed characters and romances that genuinely add depth to the narrative. DA2 (Anders) is my favorite romance in a game, but I actually find the romances in Fallout 4 to be comparable to average for Bioware. I love how much variety is available. I know these are both controversial opinions, but I think Bethesda has an advantage by not having varied sexualities and by not making cut scenes for romances. Bioware is so limited in comparison in how many base options they'll have resources for and, imo, the reason doesn't make the characters any deeper. Good dialog and voice acting sells a romance arc, but I couldn't care less about seeing a pixel butt, personally.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 11, 2019 2:16:47 GMT
I have a romance related question for you guys. How do you think Bioware compares to other games with romances? What do you think Bioware does the best (if anything) and what influence do you think they could take from other games?
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Post by caladrius on Jan 8, 2019 0:57:08 GMT
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Post by caladrius on Jan 7, 2019 22:35:19 GMT
It annoyed me that Fallout 4 made you have a dead wife and kid, but honestly this is even worse since you end up living the hetero life. At least in Fallout I can play a bi dude that settles down with a wholesome family consisting of a zombie drug addict, our robot son, cute doggo and British octorobo butler.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 7, 2019 22:20:50 GMT
I guess we just won't buy that DLC. lol
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Post by caladrius on Jan 7, 2019 21:59:26 GMT
The only one that I wish we got was Liam, because I think he'd have been my favorite in Andromeda. Not if they didn't murder the series and Reyes got an expanded/companion role, but with his limited content I'd rather pick Liam. It would be nice to have a light "best friends and lovers" romance. bitch I thought you were a Jaal trash wtf Lmao not really. I'm happy we got the romance and I think it's got a lot of what I like about Kaidan/Anders in there, but dhalion and I are confirmed Reyes trash. Sorry.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 7, 2019 21:44:25 GMT
I don't have any investment in changing a character's sexuality, but comparing bi mods or suggestions to make characters bi to real world conversion therapy is obtuse to the point of being insulting. These are not real people. Their sexuality is made up by a real person and changing it is just playing make believe another way. I don't really think it's a great narrative technique to change someone like Dorian or Cassandra in the canon, given it creates an inconsistency in the story telling. I don't really care if characters like Anders or Kaidan that were assumed straight are "changed" to give people more options. Comparing it to forcing a real person to change their sexuality is ridiculous. Everything about them is made up to create the best narrative for an audience. That's the point, they're imaginary, created for our entertainment. I didn't mean to be insulting
hell, I have an older brother who can get rather vocal about such subjects...and not in the right way (he can be rather anti at times due to copying behavior of other people who have those views)
I at least try to be open toward people's sexuality and their needs for change and such
I just wished to ask a question, and received an answer
if I insulted you or anyone else in this regard then I apologize for that was not my intent
It's okay. Some people come in and make similar arguments in bad faith, so I probably came on stronger than warranted. I'm glad you're trying to see other perspectives and I hope your brother will too eventually. Sometimes it does just take being willing to let your guard down and have a good faith conversation with someone different than you, like you're doing now.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 7, 2019 21:37:34 GMT
I play on console, so bi mods aren't an option, but so far I've been lucky that my preferred option was usually bi or gay, anyway. If Alistair or Solas were bi, I'd do their romance, but I don't overall miss it since I strongly prefer Zev and Dorian. Cullen is a hard pass for me and so are most mass effect guys. I was happy with Kaidan becoming an option and wasn't interested in Garrus beyond a friend, or LOL Jacob. Thane's romance is kind of a wreck too, imo. The only one that I wish we got was Liam, because I think he'd have been my favorite in Andromeda. Not if they didn't murder the series and Reyes got an expanded/companion role, but with his limited content I'd rather pick Liam. It would be nice to have a light "best friends and lovers" romance.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 7, 2019 21:05:04 GMT
After reading a certain Assassin’s Creed Odyssey leak, it reminds me how thankful to be to BioWare for at least trying to represent various sexual orientations as well as strive to represent more. What was the leak? I was going to start Odyssey later today, so I might as well be prepared for disappointment. lol
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Post by caladrius on Jan 7, 2019 21:03:16 GMT
I don't have any investment in changing a character's sexuality, but comparing bi mods or suggestions to make characters bi to real world conversion therapy is obtuse to the point of being insulting. These are not real people. Their sexuality is made up by a real person and changing it is just playing make believe another way. I don't really think it's a great narrative technique to change someone like Dorian or Cassandra in the canon, given it creates an inconsistency in the story telling. I don't really care if characters like Anders or Kaidan that were assumed straight are "changed" to give people more options. Comparing it to forcing a real person to change their sexuality is ridiculous. Everything about them is made up to create the best narrative for an audience. That's the point, they're imaginary, created for our entertainment.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 7, 2019 2:43:16 GMT
Haha! I'm from Texas - I believe you're next door, right? Maybe it's a southern thing. 😉 You know what they say. Everything's Titter in Texas. -5 approval
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 23:40:37 GMT
I actually really liked the excuses for Fenris, Anders, and Merrill. Isabela's came off as a little half-assed but not out of character (it was extra weird because she helps the Inquisition in MP). But Fenris would get himself killed trying to protect Hawke from the ancient darkspawn magister horror, Anders was vulnerable to the false Calling and probably a wanted man, and Merrill was helping the Kirkwall alienage rebuild. Speaking of.... I liked the way the Warden's romance was handled in Inquisition. Except Zevran, who gets mentioned in a letter and that's it. His unromanced war table cameo is so much better! I also liked that Morrigan was like, "uhh... that's none of your business but ok. *proceeds to spill all her relationship secrets*" I don't like the excuse for Fenris because it feels like he's being suddenly infantilized after he and Hawke fought side by side for nearly a decade. I feel like it just isn't that respectful to him, to his intelligence or his ability as a fighter. Hawke already fought Corypheus with Fenris once. He went through so much with him. It just feels off after that for the reason to be that Hawke doesn't believe Fenris can handle himself. If I were Fenris, I'd feel hurt and insulted that Hawke didnt feel we were both safer having each other's backs than apart.
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