Dorian Pavus Thread "He's More Handsome Than A Cockroach"

I hope they do bring out a bit more of the other aspects of Dorian in DA4, particularly his intelligence and magical knowledge. I used to love his exchanges with Solas about magical technique and theory. Knowing what we now do about Solas, it is actually quite gratifying to think that Dorian was able to talk to him as an equal on such matters. When talking magical theory, you could tell he was really comfortable with it.

Before everything went pear shaped with the harm to Felix, Dorian and Alexius were engaged in ground breaking, cutting edge magic. Time magic was one of those things but I'm pretty sure it wasn't the only thing they researched. Alexius' wife was an expert on the Fade and for years they had been involved in joint research. Dorian was dealing with Alexius' estate when he went back to Tevinter, so hopefully he acquired all their research notes at the same time. This is why I feel they had to send Dorian back to Tevinter because he is going to be very important in finding a way to stop Solas. Here's hoping anyway. At least if he is an advisor they won't have to hold him back in ability to the level of the PC, so that will be something.

As for Dorian's sexuality, I must admit that after DAO and DA2 where being gay wasn't a big deal unless you made it so (some people apparently didn't realise what Zevran was getting at until he did), his personal story did seem to be reflecting more of real world prejudices than Thedas ones.   It is also disappointing that they felt that a privileged person couldn't hate the system without having personally suffered from it.   Oh for a true idealist noble.   They exist in real life so why not in Thedas.    That said, I love Dorian and his romance.   What will make me really happy would be to discover that he has taken on board my objections to slavery.    Of all the things about Dorian, that conversation was actually the one that annoyed me the most, particularly playing as an elf.   When he said I had no idea what it was to be poor, that was so patronising I really could have hit him. (I'm pretty sure that line was written for a Trevelyan Inquisitor before they added the other races).         

I would never say nothing in Tevinter is worth saving. The thing is we haven't actually seen very much of what makes Tevinter unique. Hopefully when they take us there we will be shown a bit more than we were when they took us to Val Royeaux. The only thing that the writers have emphasised up to now is that it is ruled by mages and has slavery, to distinguish it from the rest of Thedas.   Much of the culture of any of the nations seems confined to the source books and not shown in game.    We haven't seen much of how the ordinary people enjoy themselves, only the ruling elite with their balls, hunting parties and opera.   Everywhere has feast days that they celebrate with their communities but you wouldn't know that from playing the game and actually experiencing them.   The nearest we have got was when we visited the Avaar, which was one of the things I really liked about the DLC.    I really hope we do get something of the same when we go to Tevinter.   I particularly hope we really get to see what make Minrathous such a wonder of the world, as described in World of Thedas.

I fully appreciate how much of Roman culture is still part of our world. That really is my whole point. We preserved the better bits but we don't still have slavery. I could also say the same about the British Empire, which was also built on the slave trade and subjugating other nations. However, slavery was abolished in the British Empire because one person was committed to bringing that about and raising the issue, then others followed their lead. A lot of things we take for granted in modern society came about because individuals thought the established way of doing things was morally wrong and so sought to change things.

Things move on but in Thedas it hasn't. All the major civilisations have inherent flaws in them and rigid class systems. The dwarf set up is probably the worst of all, since the castless are the untouchables of their civilisation. They even mark them (I wonder if they got that idea from the elves) so there is no mistaking who they are. You could argue that in Tevinter at least there is the possibility of getting off the bottom rung in society, even if it does likely involve sucking up to someone at the top level.

I am an idealist. Part of the reason I enjoy playing these games is that it does appear, even for a short time, that you can make a difference the world. The disappointing part is when the writers make you believe you have achieved something lasting and then promptly snatch it away again. However, they do appear to have ended the compulsory enclosed Circle system in the south, no matter what choices you took in game and who you ended up with as Divine, so making a major change does have a precedent.   Wouldn't you like to be able to end slavery in Tevinter and if given that option, wouldn't you like to feel that Dorian was supporting you in that aim? 

It doesn't have to be much on Dorian's part. All the writers have to do is have him make all his slaves liberati, but keep them on as paid servants if they wish and help them establish themselves elsewhere if they don't. You see whilst when he was talking with us in the main game he didn't have slaves, clearly if his father didn't disinherit him, then along with his seat in the Magisterium he will likely have inherited his estates, wealth and assets as well. That will include the family slaves. He does refer to them as servants in Trespasser but it is not clear if that means they are no longer slaves. So just lead by example. Then encourage his fellow lucerni to do the same.

Of course, the writers may be making slavery a very big deal in the next game. After all, the Qun have been steadily trying to undermine Tevinter by stealth and we are told have even ordered their elven and human converts to stay as slaves, or sell themselves back into slavery, in order that they are positioned where they can be used most effectively. Essentially they are planning on using the same tactics that so nearly succeeded with Andraste and Shartan, with multiple slave revolts across the Imperium making it vulnerable to invasion. The Qun, though, will have made sure they are better prepared, follow up quickly and consolidate any gains they make, before moving on. So Tevinter could be in very big trouble indeed. Certainly if Qarinus isn't under attack and needs liberating in the next game I shall be very surprised and if Qarinus is threatened, then that will involve Dorian.          

I was more focussing on the fact that DG argued the case for making it an issue on the basis that Dorian didn't want to be discrete. As the rest of the team pointed out, it had always been the case that same sex partnerships weren't actually forbidden. There were just social conventions about what was acceptable and what was not.

However, this idea that nobles should do their duty by the bloodline is not just confined to Tevinter. Everywhere there is the idea that you marry for prestige, power and to continue the bloodline and then keep lovers in the background to satisfy your true desires. That was made perfectly clear back in DAO if you were in a romance with Alistair and weren't a Cousland noble. The difference would seem to be that so long as you have done your duty, the lover will actually be acknowledged officially. If Leliana is the mistress of Prince Consort Cousland, I believe she is introduced as such at the Winter Palace. Vivienne was entirely acceptable in society as the mistress of Bastian. Then there is that fortress we capture in the Hinterlands that was once the retreat of a Ferelden noble and his male lover. It does seem as though a male lover isn't considered quite in the same light as a female mistress since he wasn't openly acknowledged, except by the wife.

Which is why his father making it a big deal on account of Dorian not wanting to do his duty by the bloodline should have been something that didn't seem surprising to a southern noble at least. Dorian even admits that to some people it might seem selfish not to go ahead and marry the approved wife, as any noble anywhere in Thedas was expected to do. This is why DG had to argue that in addition to the refusal to conform to convention in that way it was the fact that Dorian didn't want to hide the fact, which was scandalous to Tevinter society as a whole.

Actually, arranged marriages aren't just the norm among the nobility. City elves have their partners chosen for them by the elders of their community and if they refused to conform, are socially ostracised. I felt that there would be a degree of pressure among the Dalish to marry at an early age and have kids in order to keep numbers up, so my Lavellan would seem out of step with his society if he had not done so by his late twenties, which is the age I assumed for him in DAI.

So my point is that in previous games, there have been social conventions in the lore about same sex partnerships but very often these were equally applicable to people of the opposite sex trying to marry outside their class or race. The issue wasn't actually about their sexuality and the fact that you were gay wasn't raised as an objection to your relationship.   My Cousland married Anora and kept Zevran as his lover (he was a real devious social climber - one of my less likeable PCs and yet strangely enough loved by everyone).   Zevran suggested this might cause scandal but more because he was keeping any sort of lover in the background when married to the Queen.

PW dedicated Masked Empire to the LGBTQ fans as seemed to suggest that the plot of that story was driven by being challenged to do more to raise the issues people encounter in real life and I simply think that this was also the case with DG and Dorian. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just it was far more emphasised in DAI than it has been in previous games.