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That's what she said...
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Post by R1Outcast on May 11, 2017 16:55:39 GMT
Yes, you get it. That's precisely my point. It amazes me how people eagerly repeat the same mistakes over and over instead of learning from the past. I'll give you guys benefit of the doubt, especially because zipzap's original thread was obviously an over-the-top provocation. Comparing people who fought for equal rights\Jesus, Ghandi etc. with contemporary SJW's is just wrong in every possible sense. They have nothing in common. I'm not saying that everything what went wrong with MEA is due to SJW's influence, but you can obviously find examples of that throughout the game. I'm not claiming they're identical situations in every sense, but they actually have quite a bit in common at the core. Hitler and Stalin didn't start their intense hate propaganda from square one. They started small and rode the wave of racial and political tension...then when things got to a boiling point, they capitalized. If the term had existed back then, I'd be willing to bet that them and their followers would have labeled anyone who disagreed with them, a SJW. It may seem like a far-fetched comparison, but I'm sure Germany didn't see WWII until it was almost on top of them. Hateful rhetoric is like cancer. People have turned social justice into a bad thing. It's cool to criticize a person who fights for equality. Society needs to be careful, or things may boil over yet again. Internet trolls labeling everyone and everything as SJW propaganda sows an undercurrent of apathy and hate. It will only get worse if it goes unchecked. Like cancer, in the early stages, it's easy to shrug it off as nothing. In regard to ME:A and gaming in general: so what if developers are concerned with inclusion? I don't understand why it bothers people so much. When I came across the transgender character on Eos, I didn't immediately scream "D eath to SJW's!". Instead, I thought to myself, " Wow. A few years ago this character wouldn't have been in the game. Cool, good for them that they're getting some kid of representation...gotta start somewhere." (How well the character was written is beside the point and an entirely different issue altogether) I really just wish the SJW acronym wasn't used as an insult but instead, to describe a person working to move society forward in a positive way.
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Post by griffith82 on May 11, 2017 17:03:34 GMT
BSN logic apples + oranges = bananas. It's more of apples + skrewdrivers = unicorns but yeah... Lol yup. Almost as bad as the old BSN.
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Post by mega on May 11, 2017 17:06:02 GMT
So we still have no sources for the hiatus claim that can't be traced back to Kotaku. No, but so many media sites have posted this. Not only the english, also many spanish gaming sites have already posted same new. This is how it works now, just a rumor or speculation can give a lot of traffic, force the "protagonists" to issue statements etc. Mass effect, released 10 years ago, didn't keep all or even most of the same developers today. Amazing, unbelievable.... Same happens for Blizzard studios and many more. Then you hear a shitload of games "developed by ex-blizzard north devs!" and stuff like that, making us think that means a lot, and then the game is a failure, not interesting, etc. So it doesn't mean a lot to me, I am sure MEA lost some great designers, writers etc from the original trilogy, but also hired some that could be good.
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Post by suikoden on May 11, 2017 17:13:45 GMT
ASOIF is mis-interpreted as grimdark paradise. The whole reason the books are so impactful is that no matter how dark it gets, there are always, always essentially good, capable characters that go on fighting and good things happen to them, and sometimes luck is on their side. Dunno what they did with TV version, and don't care tbh.
And, yes, I have eyes, so I know what a lot of folks think. I wish for the sake of my old eyes they worded it more elegantly, but I do know. And, unlike them, I might even know why they feel what they feel. It's part of the perks of being a sweet old lady.
I'll take Brandon Sanderson over George R R Martin in that case. Martin's idea of "good things happening" to the decent figures that keep on fighting is a quick death. And there were plenty of people who spoke quite eloquently about what happened, here and elsewhere. I'm also probably not as young as you think Ugh no to Sanderson - if he wrote the sex scenes, theyd consist of characters holding each others hands. He's a crazy Mormon.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2017 17:13:53 GMT
It's more of apples + skrewdrivers = unicorns but yeah... Lol yup. Almost as bad as the old BSN. It's all internet to me I am quite happy I live in the modern day and age, when all I have to do browse away. Life would have been unbearable if you had no options but to listen to the small number of people who lived in your own village. Internet is a reflection of the most people's thought process/views, and it reflects quite poorly on humanity. And that's with mandatory education and at least some exposure to the outside world.
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Post by cypherj on May 11, 2017 17:24:21 GMT
It was a conscious decision. I think they saw how much fans liked the Citadel DLC, and decided it would be a good idea to take that laid back attitude of the DLC and use it over an entire game. yes, it was, and how would they know that the time has not yet come for a lot more people to appreciate it. I know I did very much, but others... not really. I think they did a great job, but just like with Consular's Story in SWTOR where the author (mentioned above) was maligned to no end for what I thought was great and unusual take on a videogame story, I don't really have the standard taste. All I know, the vagaries of going into a work of art/entertainment like that are crazy. It's simply impossible to know what style and mood majority will be clamoring for five or seven years down the road. People at large would call "good writing" whatever resonates with them, and trash anything that doesn't. The trick is to guess what it's gonna be at the time of release. They just should have made a sarcastic option for Ryder, like Hawke, that way the player knew what they were getting. Casual shouldn't mean crack a joke or be sarcastic. I watch games or play cards with friends, where the atmosphere is casual but it doesn't mean everyone is just cracking jokes and not taking anything seriously. It just isn't a work, or some kind of formal affair. There were just parts of the game where it just didn't fit situation or the type of character I wanted to play. When your crew walks out of the meeting while you're still talking and you just make a joke out of it, not how my Ryder would have run a ship. Or on Liam's loyalty mission where you're standing by the monitor and the enemy leader is trying to talk to you, and you're arguing with Liam while taking turns pounding the console to cut off the feed, and the leader is in the background screaming that he won't be ignored. That type of stuff was just corny to me and out of place, and you had no choice but to have Ryder act that way. It just makes the entire squad seem juvenile IMHO.
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Post by linksocarina on May 11, 2017 17:26:50 GMT
But that's just it. They weren't trying in the sense of making something unique. It's not bioware being lazy, there is a lot of artistry in the game and the design. It's bioware being gunshy. That is what I mean when I say safe, it's on purpose that the aliens are a bit boring and bipedal, that the enemy types are in categories, that the story is actually pretty simple to follow and very predictable. The game actually has a coherent vision to it, in the new galaxy, finding a home, adventure and mystery abound. The problem is again, partially implementation and partially the impetus as to why it was implemented. And that's not even touching mechanics. Open world for exploring, mako like vehicle, more morally grey dialogue and choices vs binary dialogue. All of that is part of it too, all of that falls flat for a lot of people playing the game. This is what makes it safe ultimately. I understand what you are saying, it's just that this isn't a sufficient excuse.
It's one thing trying to be "safe" (what does that even mean, really? I'd say that quite a few decisions, like the examples I posted before, were the opposite of "safe"), but this is something on a whole new level.
The bottom line is that someone fucked up, it could be management, or it could be more complicated than that, but blaming feedback from fans is the most irrational reaction possible in this context. When was the last time you heard a large company blaming the failure of a product on feedback from fans of all things?...
The fans/consumers have no responsibility in regards to the product or its development. The type of overreaction you are describing is nothing short of amateurish if true.
The thing is, take ME:A's basic "safe" story, and in retrospect even this could have been done much better if more attention was given to detail, more thought put into the plot, more detail and uniqueness added to the aliens, more consideration was given to lore and common-sense, etc.
That type of overcorrection has been BioWare's MO for 20 years. It's not surprising at this point, we know it's what they do, and will continue to do in all likelihood. Yet it doesn't really matter if the excuse is sufficient or not. BioWare has no obligation to listen to us at all, and yet they keep doing so. It's not BioWare blaming their fans, they would never do that of course. They will blame themselves, probably knock out the ones who mismanaged and all that, or EA will, and possibly has at this point, put the hammer down on it. This entire discussion however is me putting this in perspective that, frankly, we have no clue what the fuck we want most of the time. Everything you said about attention to detail, plot, and all of that, a lot of people say is in there, or design-wise is ok. Hell, I think the overall plot is fine, no problems with it other than the fact that it doesn't take a risk which is the point. It's The Force Awakens of video games, risk averse and looking to re-capture nostalgia it makes it good but not great. I mentioned this in the Noah Gervais thread: I have a friend of mine who owns a company and works on tabletop games, but hates working with playtesters because they never communicate any problems with his game well, from mechanical issues to unclear text. Worse, when the games get released, he then gets the feedback he was looking for; which for him is just annoying most of all because he is actively trying to fix issues before release. It's pulling teeth sometimes, and this is small scale for indie tabletop games, which don't have the production values to compete with shit like Dungeons and Dragons who can literally print whatever they want and people will buy it anyway. Ian Fraizer was on this forum asking for feedback as to what to improve for Andromeda during the demo days, and lo and behold, patch 1.05 addresses a number of the issues requested by the fanbase from this forum when it comes to graphical issues, which was the main focus on almost all of the feedback given. Is that not BioWare asking what is wrong and what we should focus on? But is it what they should be focusing on? Should they really care about what we think anymore? You are right, we have no responsibility in regards to development, but we do have a responsibility to articulate the problems wrong with a title to them too. When so few videos bitching about this game can create a coherent sentence as to what to tell BioWare is the problem so they do fix their product...you don't think the fanbase en-masse is not to blame in some form here? For every dozen or so videos making fun of BioWare because it gets them clicks, good criticism gets buried in the background. This is why implementation, to me, is only part of the problem.
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Post by Silvery on May 11, 2017 17:44:43 GMT
I just saw the news on this and I was surprised by this. I actually saw it through this article. I had no idea that EA was expecting it to move 3 million copies in its first week, that seems a little crazy. us.blastingnews.com/tech/2017/05/ea-put-mass-effect-series-on-hiatus-001691571.htmlI also read IGN's article and a few others and they all say it is from Kotaku's sources. Does anyone know if they have a track record of being right on this kind of stuff? Also wonder what this means for ME:A DLC. It said the staff at Montreal work on patching and support multiplayer but nothing about DLC.
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Post by qaddis on May 11, 2017 17:49:28 GMT
This could probably mean a couple of patches and no DLCs at all. Well I hope people are now happy. Thinking that bitching is going to give you a better product...flash news...It won't. After Deus Ex this is the second franchise I love that is put on halt...while crap like Battlefield, Battlefront and CoD are released every freaking year....damn if it goes like this I won't have anything to play with. Right, blame the fans for criticizing a shoddy product. Sounds legit. Like ignoring a bully really will make him go away. This reminds me when I was in elementary and 3 guys were beating the crap out of me for four years and I consistently reported them to principle and teachers but they did nothing until I hit big one with the chair three times and stomped another one. I got reprimand before expulsion. You need to be quiet, civil and everything gonna be all right...yeah right. Back on topic: Even if Bioware fails, someone else will raise. There is market for story driven RPGs and someone will want to make money of it, also lets hope they emulate CDPR business model.
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Post by aglomeracja on May 11, 2017 17:52:33 GMT
I'll give you guys benefit of the doubt, especially because zipzap's original thread was obviously an over-the-top provocation. Comparing people who fought for equal rights\Jesus, Ghandi etc. with contemporary SJW's is just wrong in every possible sense. They have nothing in common. I'm not saying that everything what went wrong with MEA is due to SJW's influence, but you can obviously find examples of that throughout the game. I'm not claiming they're identical situations in every sense, but they actually have quite a bit in common at the core. Hitler and Stalin didn't start their intense hate propaganda from square one. They started small and rode the wave of racial and political tension...then when things got to a boiling point, they capitalized. If the term had existed back then, I'd be willing to bet that them and their followers would have labeled anyone who disagreed with them, a SJW. It may seem like a far-fetched comparison, but I'm sure Germany didn't see WWII until it was almost on top of them. Hateful rhetoric is like cancer. People have turned social justice into a bad thing. It's cool to criticize a person who fights for equality. Society needs to be careful, or things may boil over yet again. Internet trolls labeling everyone and everything as SJW propaganda sows an undercurrent of apathy and hate. It will only get worse if it goes unchecked. Like cancer, in the early stages, it's easy to shrug it off as nothing. In regard to ME:A and gaming in general: so what if developers are concerned with inclusion? I don't understand why it bothers people so much. When I came across the transgender character on Eos, I didn't immediately scream "D eath to SJW's!". Instead, I thought to myself, " Wow. A few years ago this character wouldn't have been in the game. Cool, good for them that they're getting some kid of representation...gotta start somewhere." (How well the character was written is beside the point and an entirely different issue altogether) I really just wish the SJW acronym wasn't used as an insult but instead, to describe a person working to move society forward in a positive way. Ok, you're making a couple of points here and I think I know where you're coming from. I certainly agree that labeling everyone who has a different opinion is not a good idea, doesn't matter which label it is. I also agree that equality of rights is a must in any civilized country. The thing is that you don't seem to recognize\be aware of current leftist movements which went much further than fighting for equality. As an example, MEA's gameplay designer Manveer Heir: Can you imagine that a white guy could write in similar tone about black\brown\jewish\etc people and still be able to keep his job? This isn't Jesus nor Ghandi, it's impossible to make a mistake about that even though he claims to fight for "intersectional diversity in games". People like him are a minority, but a well organised and vocal one. About Hainly- I don't mind having trans character in the game, the quality of writing is my only objection. It's as if someone really did have a box to "tick" and threw in this character which presentation was actually ofensive towards the very people it was supposed to represent. The definition of SJW I posted earlier contains this line: "The accusation of being an SJW carries implications of pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated conviction, and being engaged in disingenuous social justice arguments or activism to raise personal reputation, also known as virtue signalling." I think it might be suitable for whoever wrote the character. Again, Andromeda isn't completely "corrupted" by politics, but there many things about it which suggest that someone cared more for taking a political stance rather than a high quality product. I also think that in those cases it's not necessarily about moving the society forward...
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Post by auu on May 11, 2017 17:54:43 GMT
lol are you comparing the SJW-Twitter idiots to Ghandi and MLK? That's a good laugh, man. No. I'm saying many people who've had positive influences on society in terms of race relations and equality, would likely labeled SJW's if they were around today. I'm saying the whole SJW labeling thing is dumb and over-played. I wish people would just get over it already and stop labeling everything and everyone a SJW. It's like "SJW" is some kind of scapegoat boogeyman that people call out to whenever they disagree with something. It's stupid. No. They would not be labeled SJW. SJW are children who smash classmate's artwork and are labeled heroes on twitter. A SJW is someone who sits in a taxi cab and rants about the taxi driver's little Hawaiian dancer on his dashboard and posts a video on facebook. A SJW is someone that plays a professional victim in the age of social media, crying, boycotting, and protesting art because they don't fit into their idealized world of political correctness. A SJW is someone who went into media studies, couldn't find a job, so they make a living on the internet. They are bored individuals who have zero self-worth in capitalistic society, so they find self-worth in others who don't have self-worth by complaining about the way a transgendered character is written in a video game. I would not label MLK or Ghandi, who fought peacefully for basic human rights and against the mass systematic oppression of their people as SJW. The same SJW who are crying on Twitter because WB/DC is doing a cross promotion with Wonder Woman and ThinkThin protein bars.
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Post by cypherj on May 11, 2017 17:57:35 GMT
I just saw the news on this and I was surprised by this. I actually saw it through this article. I had no idea that EA was expecting it to move 3 million copies in its first week, that seems a little crazy. us.blastingnews.com/tech/2017/05/ea-put-mass-effect-series-on-hiatus-001691571.htmlI also read IGN's article and a few others and they all say it is from Kotaku's sources. Does anyone know if they have a track record of being right on this kind of stuff? Also wonder what this means for ME:A DLC. It said the staff at Montreal work on patching and support multiplayer but nothing about DLC. They said 3 million in the first week, which would be 30-50% of total sales. Which means they thought they'd sell between six and nine million copies. That was a stretch even if the game hadn't stumble out the gate.
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Post by suikoden on May 11, 2017 17:58:49 GMT
So we still have no sources for the hiatus claim that can't be traced back to Kotaku. Bioware isn't going to come out and say "hiatus" because they want people to keep buying the game and sinking money into multiplayer. Just read the Bioware quote in the Kotaku article - it's the definition of "hiatus" delivered by a corporate mouthpiece so as to not impact sales.
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Post by Severyx on May 11, 2017 18:01:21 GMT
With no actual "why" from BioWare, most of this is just fearmongering. Kotaku hasn't exactly been the best source of clean news regarding the industry either way, so I'm skeptical regardless.
ME:A had a pretty sizable team, it only makes sense that now that the vast majority of the legwork is done (DLCs notwithstanding) that resources (developers) get moved around. Especially given that BioWare's new IP is on the cusp of being announced.
Putting the series, as a whole, on hiatus makes sense given all the shade thrown (just another example of the internet sheeple ruining things for everyone). They never intended ME:A to be a trilogy or series of any sort to begin with.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2017 18:04:15 GMT
Do you all remember how disappointed we all were when we saw her reveal? And she was so ugly that there was a theory maybe radiation on the journey warped her appearance? Or that Asari men had travelled to Andromeda with the Protheans? It was the moment many of us said they made everyone ugly wtf? And I said if they do this with all the women they will regret it, it was the twitter crowds influence. It could be the end of Mass Effect. PeeBee was only the begining. A symbol of the havoc the ideas behind her creation would wreak. The vanguard of Mass Effects eventual destruction. The SJW wet dream in video game form turned out to be a nightmare. Their dictatorship has ended the franchise. Remember us internet and BSN as you journey into the unknown and tell your children of the wonders that once were. OMG OMG OMG! How dare they release a game with a female character I don't find attractive! I'm entitled to see women I find beautiful everywhere, in every form of media, all day, every day. Any fool who includes a female I don't find attractive in their media product must be pandering to the evil boogeymen SJWs lurking under my bed instead of to me, me, me! And when they violate my delicate sensibilities in such fashion, they must be soundly punished! The sky is falling, Bioware is dead, and it's all Peebee's fault!
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Post by mugwump v1 on May 11, 2017 18:05:46 GMT
Longtime fan of the IP. Totally indifferent to the news.
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Post by ross42899 on May 11, 2017 18:05:46 GMT
I just hope we will get at least one DLC to finish the loose ends. Would be really sad if those open questions would never be answered. If there won't be a sequel we need at least DLC to finish everything.
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Post by linksocarina on May 11, 2017 18:06:27 GMT
With no actual "why" from BioWare, most of this is just fearmongering. Kotaku hasn't exactly been the best source of clean news regarding the industry either way, so I'm skeptical regardless. ME:A had a pretty sizable team, it only makes sense that now that the vast majority of the legwork is done (DLCs notwithstanding) that resources (developers) get moved around. Especially given that BioWare's new IP is on the cusp of being announced. Putting the series, as a whole, on hiatus makes sense given all the shade thrown (just another example of the internet sheeple ruining things for everyone). They never intended ME:A to be a trilogy or series of any sort to begin with. To be fair Kotaku is not fearmongering anything, they are just reporting on it based on the sources they had. It's us who see the sky falling.
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Post by correctamundo on May 11, 2017 18:06:43 GMT
yes, it was, and how would they know that the time has not yet come for a lot more people to appreciate it. I know I did very much, but others... not really. I think they did a great job, but just like with Consular's Story in SWTOR where the author (mentioned above) was maligned to no end for what I thought was great and unusual take on a videogame story, I don't really have the standard taste. All I know, the vagaries of going into a work of art/entertainment like that are crazy. It's simply impossible to know what style and mood majority will be clamoring for five or seven years down the road. People at large would call "good writing" whatever resonates with them, and trash anything that doesn't. The trick is to guess what it's gonna be at the time of release. Or on Liam's loyalty mission where you're standing by the monitor and the enemy leader is trying to talk to you, and you're arguing with Liam while taking turns pounding the console to cut off the feed, and the leader is in the background screaming that he won't be ignored. That type of stuff was just corny to me and out of place, and you had no choice but to have Ryder act that way. It just makes the entire squad seem juvenile IMHO. Which is of course wrong since you have a choice to do this. You also have several choices to NOT do it. I have chosen not to twice already. And have done it exactly zero times. So I ask if you really don't want to why then do you make that choice? Or did you get your info from YT?
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Post by smilesja on May 11, 2017 18:07:10 GMT
With no actual "why" from BioWare, most of this is just fearmongering. Kotaku hasn't exactly been the best source of clean news regarding the industry either way, so I'm skeptical regardless. ME:A had a pretty sizable team, it only makes sense that now that the vast majority of the legwork is done (DLCs notwithstanding) that resources (developers) get moved around. Especially given that BioWare's new IP is on the cusp of being announced. Putting the series, as a whole, on hiatus makes sense given all the shade thrown (just another example of the internet sheeple ruining things for everyone). They never intended ME:A to be a trilogy or series of any sort to begin with. To be fair Kotaku is not fearmongering anything, they are just reporting on it. It's us who seeing the sky fall. Reporting it pretty badly.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2017 18:07:36 GMT
Or on Liam's loyalty mission where you're standing by the monitor and the enemy leader is trying to talk to you, and you're arguing with Liam while taking turns pounding the console to cut off the feed, and the leader is in the background screaming that he won't be ignored. That type of stuff was just corny to me and out of place, and you had no choice but to have Ryder act that way. It just makes the entire squad seem juvenile IMHO. Which is of course wrong since you have a choice to do this. You also have several choices to NOT do it. I have chosen not to twice already. And have done it exactly zero times. So I ask if you really don't want to why then do you make that choice? Or did you get your info from YT? I like shooting the console. It's even funnier lol
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Post by cypherj on May 11, 2017 18:08:19 GMT
So we still have no sources for the hiatus claim that can't be traced back to Kotaku. Bioware isn't going to come out and say "hiatus" because they want people to keep buying the game and sinking money into multiplayer. Just read the Bioware quote in the Kotaku article - it's the definition of "hiatus" delivered by a corporate mouthpiece so as to not impact sales. They could have shut the entire thing down when asked for comment by just saying they remained dedicated to ME:A, there are things in the works, the article was false, anything in support of the game/franchise/ However, they didn't offer one word of support for the game in their response, just said that there were good things coming in the future from other projects.
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Post by maximusarael020 on May 11, 2017 18:08:26 GMT
I just saw the news on this and I was surprised by this. I actually saw it through this article. I had no idea that EA was expecting it to move 3 million copies in its first week, that seems a little crazy. us.blastingnews.com/tech/2017/05/ea-put-mass-effect-series-on-hiatus-001691571.htmlI also read IGN's article and a few others and they all say it is from Kotaku's sources. Does anyone know if they have a track record of being right on this kind of stuff? Also wonder what this means for ME:A DLC. It said the staff at Montreal work on patching and support multiplayer but nothing about DLC. By all indications of how much we know MEA sold in the first week with physical copies, as well as the untracked digital sales, it's very likely they met their 3 million copies goal.
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Post by setokaiba on May 11, 2017 18:09:29 GMT
Do you all remember how disappointed we all were when we saw her reveal? And she was so ugly that there was a theory maybe radiation on the journey warped her appearance? Or that Asari men had travelled to Andromeda with the Protheans? It was the moment many of us said they made everyone ugly wtf? And I said if they do this with all the women they will regret it, it was the twitter crowds influence. It could be the end of Mass Effect. PeeBee was only the begining. A symbol of the havoc the ideas behind her creation would wreak. The vanguard of Mass Effects eventual destruction. The SJW wet dream in video game form turned out to be a nightmare. Their dictatorship has ended the franchise. Remember us internet and BSN as you journey into the unknown and tell your children of the wonders that once were. Someone needs a safe space. Dude you sound as bad as a SJW in this post.
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Post by cypherj on May 11, 2017 18:12:05 GMT
Or on Liam's loyalty mission where you're standing by the monitor and the enemy leader is trying to talk to you, and you're arguing with Liam while taking turns pounding the console to cut off the feed, and the leader is in the background screaming that he won't be ignored. That type of stuff was just corny to me and out of place, and you had no choice but to have Ryder act that way. It just makes the entire squad seem juvenile IMHO. Which is of course wrong since you have a choice to do this. You also have several choices to NOT do it. I have chosen not to twice already. And have done it exactly zero times. So I ask if you really don't want to why then do you make that choice? Or did you get your info from YT? What choice is that? What choice said argue with Liam, while I pound on the console and cut off the monitor while the enemy tries to talk?
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