Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1818
0
Nov 28, 2024 16:41:19 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 28, 2024 16:41:19 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 3:01:50 GMT
You moved the goalposts. You asked if I know the difference between lore expansion and retcon. I didn't move anything really. I see it as a clear retcon, you don't.
On this and on the rest I can only agree to disagree, as we seem to be arguing in circles here.
I just described a different application of "biological reality" than the one you came up with. What we've been trying to explain for awhile now is that you've filled in the blanks in a particular way, but it's not the only possible way - and in some cases, may not be the way the author intended. You are, of course, free to disavow word of god, but then you don't get to cry retcon. The reality of biology is that females are capable of spawning more soldiers,
That's mostly true. Not all females are fertile, and not all offspring will become soldiers. And that's a template you overlaid on the qun to fill in some blanks for yourself. You really seem to have a fixation on the idea that females need to be used as breeding stock. We don't actually know how many are assigned to that role, how many children they need to have to meet their population goals. Also, qunari numbers expand through recruitment as well as procreation (Tallis, other Kirkwall elves who joined the qun). The qun sees people as tools, and a purely utilitarian point of view would logically choose to use the right tool for the right job. You can turn a phillips screw with a small straight slot screwdriver, but it's much more efficient and less prone to stripping if you use the correct size phillips head screwdriver. We know that the qunari have been very successful, and are quite advanced scientifically relative to the rest of Thedas. This tells me that the individuals assigned to scientific/researcher roles are people who demonstrate the skills/aptitude for it. I would also suggest that people who demonstrate greater interest in a vocation and would be happy doing it are also more likely to be really good at it and tend to apply greater levels of creativity and productivity. I acknowledge that a purely utilitarian application would not care whether people are happy in their roles, but if they find that positioning people where they are happy makes them more productive and the entire society better able to meet their purely pragmatic goals, then that's what they'd do. What I'm saying here is that authoritarian collectivist goals need not be mutually exclusive with individual desires in all cases. No, it really doesn't. It just doesn't jive with the template you overlaid onto the bits they've actually revealed. Well - you've demonstrated that the only way you can see things is the way you've always seen them, so... works for me.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,686
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
8,066
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on May 12, 2017 3:02:03 GMT
This qun subject is interesting, but a question then. Do the Qun see people as people, or as a tool? By all accounts I'd argue the latter as individuality is irrelevent in Qunari society, as is putting things to waste. But with this logic, isent the real question about them being dictorial kind of moot? At the same token, the same with Aqun Athalok? After all, a man fighting in the army is always a man. What makes then a man? Their sex, or their aptitude? Surely a qunari would deny the premise of the first question. An individual flourishes best when he's doing his proper function. As some religions have it, true freedom lies in submission to God.
|
|
erikson
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 704 Likes: 872
inherit
6153
0
Sept 14, 2019 19:54:32 GMT
872
erikson
704
Mar 26, 2017 13:56:54 GMT
March 2017
erik
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by erikson on May 12, 2017 3:03:44 GMT
Wait we still talking about SJW stuff? Aren't we always?
|
|
inherit
4007
0
Member is Online
Nov 28, 2024 16:40:01 GMT
3,862
kotoreffect3
1,758
March 2017
kotoreffect3
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by kotoreffect3 on May 12, 2017 3:09:31 GMT
Wait we still talking about SJW stuff? Aren't we always? The whole damn internet always is. It is kind of funny some times.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1818
0
Nov 28, 2024 16:41:19 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 28, 2024 16:41:19 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 3:13:49 GMT
Well - you've demonstrated that the only way you can see things is the way you've always seen them, so... works for me. I don't see the point in responding to the rest, but I appreciate the irony of this statement coming from you... Thanks.
Funny stuff. Other people have offered you different ways to expand the world lore (from the basis of the little bits we actually get in game) and you can only see the same old template.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,686
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
8,066
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on May 12, 2017 3:19:07 GMT
Does Sten see gender, or aptitude? Or a mix of both? We know the Qunari society only focuses on aptitude and skill with the Tamassrans, since they are basically machine-like in how they don't waste anything. Everything and everyone is a tool in that regard for the collective. So the question is did Sten consider the women women in Origins, and did Bull consider women men when fighting with them? After all, both of them are talking about the same thing from different perspectives, we also know one is more unreliable while the other is rigid in their ways. This is why it's really hard to say a retcon in this case. Even if it was, it actually fits the core philosophy of the Qunari to begin with, considering they waste no one and focus on collectivist strength via aptitude of what you are good at, versus what is expected of you. Bull is a perfect example of that. There is no reason for them to talk from different perspectives. The Qun by its nature rarely has different perspectives.
If gender was determined according to skill (which has to be one of the strangest ideas I've ever heard, I find it difficult to see how such an idea would even evolve into being, much easier to assume an agenda here honestly the writer using his creation to make a point, rather than describing a society that makes sense) Sten would take one look on the Warden, and everything would be clear to him, as she would be an "Aqun Athlock".
Of course, at this point the concept didn't exist and Sten never saw female soldiers among the Qunari... So the question is moot.
Your whole argument seems to be based on you assuming stuff and then casting around for anything that will back up the assumption.
|
|
Cyan_Griffonclaw
N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
Posts: 2,516 Likes: 2,607
inherit
Uncle Cyan
5620
0
Nov 17, 2024 18:04:04 GMT
2,607
Cyan_Griffonclaw
Dang it.
2,516
March 2017
griffonclaw39
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
griffonclaw39
|
Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on May 12, 2017 3:23:56 GMT
EA will never sell Mass Effect: for those who keep referring to CDPR/Obsidian/Bethesda to buy it. Obviously, if they are going to sit on it rather than use it I would LOVE them to sell it (especially to CDPR), but yeah...the value of such an IP is crazy immense, they'll just wait it out and either do MEA2 in 2020, ME5 in 2022 or ME:The Reboot in 2025 :/ I don't think EA has ever sold a license, and it is never going to happen. Also i don't want anyone else to make Mass Effect. CDRP has made 3 good games, sure, but all with a set protag and no companions to speak off. Can they pull off the Bioware experience? On top of that they are busy with Cyberpunk anyway so its a moot point. Bethesda can't do story like Bioware, so no, also they have like 4 games in production at this point. Obsidian is pretty downsized and many of the writers have left to do other things. They are still making games, but they won't ever be on the AAA scale again, unfornately. So that leaves no one able to pick up the IP, which EA will never sell anyway, full circle. Bioware or no one. Bethesda has their own set of franchises, but I doubt they have the capital to purchase an IP from EA. Obsidian is a lot smaller and they're struggling to get out another South Park that frankly, shouldn't have taken this long since all the voice acting and dialogue have been done for a long time (I'm pretty sure it's was almost two years ago when it was recorded) especially when you consider they're re-using a big portion of the assets from the previous title. Can you imagine how long it would take it for them to do a game... and on Frostbite?!?... hahahaha. CDPR might be a good choice, but why? Bioware is capable of learning... and if they haven't learned from this... then the point is moot. The IP goes up for sale and we, as fans, hope for the best. I can tell you the day that happens, it will be a sad day, just as sad when Black Isle studios closed. There will never be another Black Isle and I'm sorry, but there will never be another Bioware. New or old. However, why are we talking about this? The hype train has passed. Bioware is back to work. The new IP is now being handled by veterans and not rookies. EA's CEO said that Bioware is not done and committed to seeing more games come down the line. I don't know why people are knocking Dylan. Pessimism for this can be squarely pointed at EA, but Bioware gave us more than RPGs. They gave us Jade Empire (KICK ASS) and Shattered Steel. I own these games. I got a lot of mileage. If it's a FPS, I've dumped some serious time in Far Cry, Crysis, Fallout (ESPECIALLY FALLOUT) and Bioware is going to make one? Holy crap. Awesome. This will also give these newly minted veterans some time to understand in depth what more Frostbite can do and they can implement old-school RPG elements over time like the Paragon/Renegade system (I give a F*** if you don't like it. It's an original game element, respect it and make it yours. Adapt.) and improve on storage (COME ON!), inventory, crafting (you can go blind in Andromeda doing it) and all the while learning to polish each other's work so no one looks like they just rushed out amateur-hour writing. It's all good guys... they're listening. Their face is tired. lol.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,686
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
8,066
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on May 12, 2017 3:28:50 GMT
Your whole argument seems to be based on you assuming stuff and then casting around for anything that will back up the assumption. That's an empty statement, not an argument. You are not even trying. Correct. I'm not trying. I don't see any point in it with you.
|
|
erikson
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 704 Likes: 872
inherit
6153
0
Sept 14, 2019 19:54:32 GMT
872
erikson
704
Mar 26, 2017 13:56:54 GMT
March 2017
erik
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by erikson on May 12, 2017 3:29:27 GMT
Well - you've demonstrated that the only way you can see things is the way you've always seen them, so... works for me. This is the whole point, and why I do not engage in these arguments anymore. Everyone is motivated by preconceieved ideas, and personal preferences. Some people regard their preferences as the "right ones", but no one's actually are. This is just a pointless merry go round, and I think, at this point, both sides should just admit irreconcilable differences and go to their seperate corners.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1818
0
Nov 28, 2024 16:41:19 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 28, 2024 16:41:19 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 3:33:50 GMT
Funny stuff. Other people have offered you different ways to expand the world lore (from the basis of the little bits we actually get in game) and you can only see the same old template. Why would I be interested in excuses? I don't think it makes sense, end of story. I think that the lore got bent out of shape because the writer wanted to make a political point. If you disagree, I see no problem with agreeing to disagree. (it's not like this is the first time I encountered these arguments)
I suspected this was a waste of time, and you've just verified that it was. You took a few bits of lore from the game, filled in the rest of the blanks from your own template, and then called retcon when the parts you filled in were overturned. I've no idea where that came from. Not at all. I just think it's unfortunate that content creators can't include the mere mention of some types of content without being accused of "preaching", or trying to "educate" consumers about "politically correct" whatever. You never actually did explain what was "preached", how you were "educated", or any of the rest of the allegations you've made. But - like I said several pages ago, thanks for responding anyway.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,686
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
8,066
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on May 12, 2017 3:45:33 GMT
The reality of biology is that females are capable of spawning more soldiers, so risking them as warriors is simply not worth it for the weird ultra-authoritarian, collectivist, and mostly utilitarian society that is the Qun. The hypothetical motivations are merely hypothetical and don't carry the same weight from a utilitarian point of view.
This is a retcon both because it goes against what a soldier of the Qun told us in DA:O, and both because it goes against the theme of the Qun.
But again, I can happily agree to disagree.
Does Sten see gender, or aptitude? Or a mix of both? We know the Qunari society only focuses on aptitude and skill with the Tamassrans, since they are basically machine-like in how they don't waste anything. Everything and everyone is a tool in that regard for the collective. So the question is did Sten consider the women women in Origins, and did Bull consider women men when fighting with them? My question would be more along the lines of what did Sten actually want from a female Warden? To quit fighting? That would make his behavior completely incoherent. That Origins convo is either brilliantly designed or a weird accident, since thanks to the Warden not asking any of the logical questions we never do find out what Sten's getting at, or why the Qun works the way it does. Concerning gender under the Qun, I think we've got an excluded middle issue within the thread. What if the tamassrans assign gender by behavior rather than aptitude? Krem born under the Qun would simply be male, and the genitalia would be a trivial detail. If you're going to have gender roles, might as well slot people into them by brain gender rather than genitalia. It would be slightly odd for the Qun to match 21st-century Western practice in this one area, but OTOH we should expect one or two things to match up by chance.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,686
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
8,066
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on May 12, 2017 3:47:36 GMT
Correct. I'm not trying. I don't see any point in it with you. Then why are you responding to my posts?...
To express my position to the other thread participants. That wasn't obvious?
|
|
R'Shara
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 768 Likes: 1,310
inherit
6317
0
Jun 29, 2017 19:50:18 GMT
1,310
R'Shara
768
Mar 27, 2017 15:37:15 GMT
March 2017
rshara
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by R'Shara on May 12, 2017 3:56:15 GMT
This thread is almost as entertaining as what's going on in the government right now.
|
|
Cyan_Griffonclaw
N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
Posts: 2,516 Likes: 2,607
inherit
Uncle Cyan
5620
0
Nov 17, 2024 18:04:04 GMT
2,607
Cyan_Griffonclaw
Dang it.
2,516
March 2017
griffonclaw39
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
griffonclaw39
|
Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on May 12, 2017 3:57:57 GMT
Personally, I would like to see ME5 in say, 2022, that connects ME:A to the Milky Way again after a passage of time: Indoctrination Theory canonized so to avoid the canonization of the 3 endings, and the passage of time, again used to fix the relay network (if it needed fixing, since IT fixes that plot hole as well). Buzz Aldrin could be the start of the new game and viola! We're sorted for more Mass Effect EA/BioWare Edmonton: Make it so! Now that's pretty cool. Very, very cool.
|
|
inherit
209
0
3,640
zipzap2000
Zip has left the building.
2,263
August 2016
zipzap2000
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by zipzap2000 on May 12, 2017 4:00:54 GMT
This thread is almost as entertaining as what's going on in the government right now. Not in Australia. The govt just got ranked next Kenya for internet speeds after spending $36 billion on copper cables. Their logic was "We don't need fast internet we have televisions."
|
|
R'Shara
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 768 Likes: 1,310
inherit
6317
0
Jun 29, 2017 19:50:18 GMT
1,310
R'Shara
768
Mar 27, 2017 15:37:15 GMT
March 2017
rshara
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by R'Shara on May 12, 2017 4:02:38 GMT
And this is quite possibly what the Qun society is based on, fyi. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_GiverWhen a person is assigned a role at the age of 12, it is not based on whether they are a boy or girl, but instead on what the community believes fits them best. For example, Jonas’ mother, is an official for the Department of Justice, while Jonas’ father is a Nurturer of the young and old.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,686
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
8,066
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on May 12, 2017 4:07:48 GMT
It would be slightly odd for the Qun to match 21st-century Western practice in this one area, but OTOH we should expect one or two things to match up by chance. Slightly odd? That's a good one. And please, there was no "chance" here...
"Slightly" because the qunari already are fairly close to our current beliefs -- if not practices -- WRT race, in contrast to the rest of Thedas. And of course there's no actual chance here. The Qun wasn't designed by throwing darts at an anthropology textbook. Don't be daft, man.
|
|
inherit
98
0
3,042
Steelcan
2,078
August 2016
steelcan
|
Post by Steelcan on May 12, 2017 4:27:29 GMT
"Slightly" because the qunari already are fairly close to our current beliefs -- if not practices -- WRT race, in contrast to the rest of Thedas. And of course there's no actual chance here. The Qun wasn't designed by throwing darts at an anthropology textbook. Don't be daft, man. Qunari are fairly close to "our" current beliefs? If you are a Communist / Marxist maybe.
And yeah, obviously they weren't designed by chance, that point was included to make a political statement.
Honestly, I wouldn't care at all about the mere inclusion of a trans character if they didn't feel the need to bend the Qunari lore for it.
I think there's two reasons it worked though. Bull seems to be trying to make it seem a bit rosier than it likely is to make Krem more comfortable, its entirely possible there are trans!qunari (I forget the word for them in the lore) who are not happy with the role they would be assigned due to their natural aptitude. Secondly, there is a case to make for it being consistent, but I'd have to dig around on fextralife a lot to find the post and that's way too much effort.
|
|
Conquer Your Dreams
N3
Say that you love me
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: stescooter100
Posts: 944 Likes: 1,383
inherit
5075
0
Nov 25, 2024 23:58:45 GMT
1,383
Conquer Your Dreams
Say that you love me
944
Mar 19, 2017 16:04:04 GMT
March 2017
ste100
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
stescooter100
|
Post by Conquer Your Dreams on May 12, 2017 7:29:21 GMT
|
|
inherit
1274
0
3,439
sageoflife
1,577
August 2016
sageoflife
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by sageoflife on May 12, 2017 7:33:58 GMT
I've been out of commission for a while. Am I correct to assume that the sole source for the hiatus claim is still Kotaku?
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on May 12, 2017 7:38:13 GMT
Am I missing something, or does that article basically just add thoughts onto Kotaku's report?
|
|
Conquer Your Dreams
N3
Say that you love me
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: stescooter100
Posts: 944 Likes: 1,383
inherit
5075
0
Nov 25, 2024 23:58:45 GMT
1,383
Conquer Your Dreams
Say that you love me
944
Mar 19, 2017 16:04:04 GMT
March 2017
ste100
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
stescooter100
|
Post by Conquer Your Dreams on May 12, 2017 7:51:06 GMT
Well, this is Forbes not Kotaku and this guy at least spoke with Mike Gamble. I don't believe he will made that article if those rumours will be just pure science-fiction. Of course nothing is confirmed and many people will not believe in anything which is not coming from EA/BioWare, but I just don't believe we will get any statement from them.
|
|
Hrulj
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 264 Likes: 273
inherit
3276
0
273
Hrulj
264
February 2017
hrulj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
|
Post by Hrulj on May 12, 2017 7:53:36 GMT
So because a writer with an obvious agenda claimed that my understanding of the Qun was mistaken, I'm supposed to believe him?... I never cared about "word of god" personally. "Believe him" in what sense? The Qun is whatever the writers say it is. I suppose you can pretend that DAI didn't happen, but then what will you do when DA4 comes around? You were shown. You just misinterpreted what you were shown' and then you were shown more. "I dont understand. You are a woman. Yet you dress and fight like a man. In Qun women are teachers and caretakers. Women have no place fighting on a battlefield" Sten, curent leader of Qun faith in DA:O on gender roles. They are rigid, woman is a woman and there is no changing that. Then DAI comes and shits all over the established lore to push an agenda. And you wonder how people are upset? What role did transexual nature of that character play except to preach? Did they return to their female role to seduce a character and kill them off, or did anything where gender bending benefits them? Of course not.
|
|
inherit
688
0
1,913
UutIVvdPw7END0Ef
1,524
August 2016
uutivvdpw7end0ef
Bottom
|
Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on May 12, 2017 7:56:25 GMT
|
|
inherit
1274
0
3,439
sageoflife
1,577
August 2016
sageoflife
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by sageoflife on May 12, 2017 7:59:19 GMT
"Believe him" in what sense? The Qun is whatever the writers say it is. I suppose you can pretend that DAI didn't happen, but then what will you do when DA4 comes around? You were shown. You just misinterpreted what you were shown' and then you were shown more. "I dont understand. You are a woman. Yet you dress and fight like a man. In Qun women are teachers and caretakers. Women have no place fighting on a battlefield" Sten, curent leader of Qun faith in DA:O on gender roles. They are rigid, woman is a woman and there is no changing that. Then DAI comes and shits all over the established lore to push an agenda. And you wonder how people are upset? What role did transexual nature of that character play except to preach? Did they return to their female role to seduce a character and kill them off, or did anything where gender bending benefits them? Of course not. Or maybe priests know a lot more about the minutiae of the Qun than soldiers.
|
|