Rochrok
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Rochrok on Feb 4, 2018 5:49:13 GMT
I sided with her and the mages, I like seeing the different endings. I do prefer siding with the mages, but not because I think the Templars are wrong but because it's the only ending that lets you leave that dungeon masquerading as a city.
IMO, I don't think it matters who you side with in the end because both sides are right and wrong and by the time the end comes, both leaders have lost their collective minds. Meredith was right about Orsino, she was right to have him investigated, and she was right to accuse him of blood magic. I can even understand her believing the Circle was beyond help. Blood Mages were falling from that sky in that city (Pun intended lol!), Tevinter Magisters were lurking about, mages kept escaping and coming back with new blood magic spells. Kirkwall was a disaster. But it was the fault of the Red Lyrium or whatever it was underground. The Chantry should have stepped in at some point and investigated how abnormal Kirkwall was and had that Circle shut down and all the Mages and Templars reassigned to another Circle pending a thorough investigation.
However, I could understand some of the mages turning to blood magic and escaping for reasons beyond what was happening underground. Who the heck wants to spend their lives in Kirkwall? Not to mention some of the abuse going on. I think the Templars and the Mages who were higher up failed those mages, the Chantry failed them too. So I say let the city burn and whoever is strong enough to escape, Godspeed.
I still kill Anders cause he was annoying.
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helios969
N4
Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
Prime Likes: Who Cares
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Post by helios969 on Mar 6, 2018 22:44:25 GMT
Actually, my favorite playthrough (which has become my personal canon) is a mage-hating-mage Hawke who sides with Meredith. Yeah, she's bat-sh*t, but if you're actually RP'ing, then you yourself should be fallible. I fully immersed myself into a self-loathing type character who despises that she was born a mage. Needless to say she got along splendidly with Fenris.
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talyn82
N5
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Talyn82
PSN: Talyn82
Posts: 3,690 Likes: 10,244
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Post by talyn82 on Mar 15, 2018 5:22:30 GMT
Not me. Never liked her since I first saw walk by that bum. She died a horrible horrible death though.
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Post by pathogen7 on Apr 28, 2018 17:33:03 GMT
In a perfect world, I would side against the Templars and prevent the Rite of Annulment. However, I wouldn't allow the mages to go scot-free. I'd send them to another Circle that isn't full of insane templars (Ferelden maybe?) because I do believe that mages do need Templars watching them, as long as they aren't power-hungry Templars.
Obviously, this can't actually happen because all the Circles in Thedas rebel due to the Kirkwall Rebellion.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 28, 2018 19:20:33 GMT
In a perfect world, I would side against the Templars and prevent the Rite of Annulment. However, I wouldn't allow the mages to go scot-free. I'd send them to another Circle that isn't full of insane templars (Ferelden maybe?) because I do believe that mages do need Templars watching them, as long as they aren't power-hungry Templars. Obviously, this can't actually happen because all the Circles in Thedas rebel due to the Kirkwall Rebellion. The system's bad, there are no good Circles exists, the system supports the abuses and the cruelty. the Calenhad Tower also a nightmare. So the best what happened is the rebellion.
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Post by pathogen7 on Apr 29, 2018 0:44:21 GMT
In a perfect world, I would side against the Templars and prevent the Rite of Annulment. However, I wouldn't allow the mages to go scot-free. I'd send them to another Circle that isn't full of insane templars (Ferelden maybe?) because I do believe that mages do need Templars watching them, as long as they aren't power-hungry Templars. Obviously, this can't actually happen because all the Circles in Thedas rebel due to the Kirkwall Rebellion. The system's bad, there are no good Circles exists, the system supports the abuses and the cruelty. the Calenhad Tower also a nightmare. So the best what happened is the rebellion. Surely there has to be some sort of oversight of mages, right? I mean, an education process at the very least, where young mages go to "school" and learn how to use their abilities and learn about demonic temptation. Then to "graduate," the mages must pass the Harrowing, after which they don't have to live in the Circle any longer. But Templars (or something similar) would still have to exist in case a mage does turn to the forbidden arts or becomes an abomination. In my view, there's no reason at all for Templars to live in the Circle at all. They should have no interaction with young mages (to prevent any sort of abuse) and should only be called into action when a mage becomes an apostate. Edit: and to add, there's no reason for Circle mages to never see their family again. I mean, can you imagine if you were a young child who was discovered to have magical capabilities, then you were whisked away to the Circle and never got to see your parents again? That would be a traumatic experience. At the very least, just like in a university, allow the mages to return home to see their families over the weekend. Or have their families regularly visit them in the Circle.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2018 0:56:27 GMT
The system's bad, there are no good Circles exists, the system supports the abuses and the cruelty. the Calenhad Tower also a nightmare. So the best what happened is the rebellion. Surely there has to be some sort of oversight of mages, right? I mean, an education process at the very least, where young mages go to "school" and learn how to use their abilities and learn about demonic temptation. Then to "graduate," the mages must pass the Harrowing, after which they don't have to live in the Circle any longer. But Templars (or something similar) would still have to exist in case a mage does turn to the forbidden arts or becomes an abomination. In my view, there's no reason at all for Templars to live in the Circle at all. They should have no interaction with young mages (to prevent any sort of abuse) and should only be called into action when a mage becomes an apostate. Yes, something similar. The safe education is important, just as an effective anti-magical force – as police – with mages (they have many anti-magic spells), and non-mages: Templars (without lyrium – according to Alistair, the lyrium only amplify their abilities, but perhaps, this retconned) and Seekers, and registration (phylactery). This combination is humane and more effective than the prison-Circles. The Harrowing in this form is just simple cruelty – perhaps in a better form can work as a test. But the Harrowing doesn't prevent anything: most of the knowing raging Abominations are Harrowed mages – and Meredith, for example.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 29, 2018 2:03:41 GMT
Templars (without lyrium – according to Alistair, the lyrium only amplify their abilities, but perhaps, this retconned) Yeah that was retconned or rather Alistair was mistaken. Templars need Lyrium to have their abilities unlike Seekers.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2018 2:06:18 GMT
Templars (without lyrium – according to Alistair, the lyrium only amplify their abilities, but perhaps, this retconned) Yeah that was retconned or rather Alistair was mistaken. Templars need Lyrium to have their abilities unlike Seekers. Alistair was a Templar. he said, that the Chantry forces the lyrium... so it was retconned.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 29, 2018 2:13:31 GMT
Yeah that was retconned or rather Alistair was mistaken. Templars need Lyrium to have their abilities unlike Seekers. Alistair was a Templar. he said, that the Chantry forces the lyrium... so it was retconned. I agree. I meant I think David Gaider while retconning it said that Alistair’s comment was him being mistaken or something like that.
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talyn82
N5
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Talyn82
PSN: Talyn82
Posts: 3,690 Likes: 10,244
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Post by talyn82 on Apr 30, 2018 5:28:46 GMT
I can never side with a Templar. I always think of Wynne and the children in the Tower behind a force field. They're innocent children who are just learning to become mages. They have nothing to do with what the adults do, like Uldred. And there are good mages too like the ones Uldred was sacrificing, and First Enchanter Irving. But like Phoray said in my thread about blood mages in Kirkwall. They turn to it out of desperation. Kirkwall has such a dark history which is part of the reason why DA2 is my second favorite Dragon Age game. I hope the next game takes place in Tevinter cause mages are free even though the magisters crush the weak. But at least the frr have a chance to survive. Also I like how in Origins if you're a mage and do the Ultimate Sacrifice, the mages are set free, much to the chagrin of the Templars. Anyway forgive the rambling. I just hope you understand my point.
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Post by warden on Apr 30, 2018 10:57:19 GMT
Yes I understand your point, thing is mages are a danger to all, even themselves, and they need to either die or be put under constant vigilance.
With wisdom you also gain demency.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 30, 2018 11:23:21 GMT
Yes I understand your point, thing is mages are a danger to all, even themselves, and they need to either die or be put under constant vigilance. With wisdom you also gain demency. The paranoia never the solution, the prison-Circles are dangerous, not only inhumane. And just look at Meredith, if we speak about how dangerous are the mages. Meredith wanted more power over the mages and the city, fell into the temptation, played with demonic energy, because she thought she strong enough to handle it, and became a raging abomination. Familiar?
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Post by warden on Apr 30, 2018 11:36:42 GMT
Yes I understand your point, thing is mages are a danger to all, even themselves, and they need to either die or be put under constant vigilance. With wisdom you also gain demency. The paranoia never the solution, the prison-Circles are dangerous, not only inhumane. And just look at Meredith, if we speak about how dangerous are the mages. Meredith wanted more power over the mages and the city, fell into the temptation, played with demonic energy, because she thought she strong enough to handle it, and became a raging abomination. Familiar? Nothing wrong with paranoia, better to be on guard than be catched wide open. Didn't see anything inhumane in the circles, that's your own making and false, and I wouldn't call mages humans exactly, at least not normal humans. And what I have to look about Meredith? Every single thing you said can be found on daily basis anywhere in Thedas, that you only see Meredith because is what it was shown in Dragon Age 2, it's your problem.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 30, 2018 12:02:10 GMT
The paranoia never the solution, the prison-Circles are dangerous, not only inhumane.
And just look at Meredith, if we speak about how dangerous are the mages. Meredith wanted more power over the mages and the city, fell into the temptation, played with demonic energy, because she thought she strong enough to handle it, and became a raging abomination. Familiar? Nothing wrong with paranoia, better to be on guard than be catched wide open. Didn't see anything inhumane in the circles, that's your own making and false, and I wouldn't call mages humans exactly, at least not normal humans. And what I have to look about Meredith? Every single thing you said can be found on daily basis anywhere in Thedas, that you only see Meredith because is what it was shown in Dragon Age 2, it's your problem. Paranoia is an illness, I just say. To be cautious is good, paranoia sick, and if being institutionalized, poisons everything, and can destroy the world. What happens with Meredith is exactly the paranoia + the temptation + the pride. Deadly combinations, even if someone, like she, has relatively strong willpower. Relatively... because she fell. In this magical world, not only the mages are dangerous... Not mentioned: not only a mage able to destroy a village... Celene did it, she destroyed a whole alienage, and she's not a mage.
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Post by warden on Apr 30, 2018 12:14:37 GMT
Nothing wrong with paranoia, better to be on guard than be catched wide open. Didn't see anything inhumane in the circles, that's your own making and false, and I wouldn't call mages humans exactly, at least not normal humans. And what I have to look about Meredith? Every single thing you said can be found on daily basis anywhere in Thedas, that you only see Meredith because is what it was shown in Dragon Age 2, it's your problem. Paranoia is an illness, I just say. To be cautious is good, paranoia sick, and if being institutionalized, poisons everything, and can destroy the world. What happens with Meredith is exactly the paranoia + the temptation + the pride. Deadly combinations, even if someone, like she, has relatively strong willpower. Relatively... because she fell. In this magical world, not only the mages are dangerous... Not mentioned: not only a mage able to destroy a village... Celene did it, she destroyed a whole alienage, and she's not a mage. You can say what you want, I still don't see the problem. You are exaggerating things in an immense proportions, but well I guess anything is valid when you try to impose your ideals. Again, you can find all that in every single place on Thedas, that you only can see Meredith it's your problem. I never said only mages were the only danger, there are many dangers in Thedas, but mages like it or not, are one, denying it it's pointless.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 30, 2018 12:21:20 GMT
Paranoia is an illness, I just say. To be cautious is good, paranoia sick, and if being institutionalized, poisons everything, and can destroy the world. What happens with Meredith is exactly the paranoia + the temptation + the pride. Deadly combinations, even if someone, like she, has relatively strong willpower. Relatively... because she fell. In this magical world, not only the mages are dangerous... Not mentioned: not only a mage able to destroy a village... Celene did it, she destroyed a whole alienage, and she's not a mage. You can say what you want, I still don't see the problem. You are exaggerating things in an immense proportions, but well I guess anything is valid when you try to impose your ideals. Again, you can find all that in every single place on Thedas, that you only can see Meredith it's your problem. I never said only mages were the only danger, there are many dangers in Thedas, but mages like it or not, are one, denying it it's pointless. Okay, so, according to you, nothing wrong if the paranoia leads the world, it's very normal... to destroy blindly every potential danger, yes? The we must destroy almost every life in the world... to protect... what exactly? The paranoia is far from the caution. The caution is important, the paranoia is dangerous. And nothing inhumane in the Circles? Constantly watched, no privacy, lifetime imprisonment innocently, the love is forbidden, live in family forbidden, the mages are the property of the Chantry – they can "sell-buy" them as the slaves (Karl – for example, but many probably). And I didn't speak about the rapes and the other cruelties, the Tranquility, and the Harrowing... Not only Meredith's Circle is inhumane: every prison-Circle is. The system is inhumane. The Calenhad Tower just as terrible as the others – only a little difference between them.
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Post by warden on Apr 30, 2018 12:28:17 GMT
Nothing wrong with paranoia, better to be on guard than be catched wide open. Didn't see anything inhumane in the circles, that's your own making and false, and I wouldn't call mages humans exactly, at least not normal humans.And what I have to look about Meredith? Every single thing you said can be found on daily basis anywhere in Thedas, that you only see Meredith because is what it was shown in Dragon Age 2, it's your problem. In DA2 Meredith allowed Ser Alric to rape the mages. Meredith is Knight Commander and she allowed her subordinate to treat mages that way, pretty inhumane. Sure, rapes occur in Ferelden and every where else doesn't make it acceptable behavior in the circle. Neither does the thinking that because mages are not like normal humans without power they can be treated less humanly and without dignity.I do like Meredith as a character with many flaws and she could have been a strong leader for good, she only needed to clean her house a bit and treat mages better. First, you are being advantageous here, and second you are only naming one isolated issue, as already being said, that happens everywhere anytime. I see an incident but I still don't see circles as inhumane. It's sad but unfortunately, that's how things work in Thedas society, nothing can be done about it, and seeing how things have gone, agree or not I can understand it, and anyway I think that if you think that you deserve trust, then work to earn it.
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Post by warden on Apr 30, 2018 13:55:32 GMT
You can say what you want, I still don't see the problem. You are exaggerating things in an immense proportions, but well I guess anything is valid when you try to impose your ideals. Again, you can find all that in every single place on Thedas, that you only can see Meredith it's your problem. I never said only mages were the only danger, there are many dangers in Thedas, but mages like it or not, are one, denying it it's pointless. Okay, so, according to you, nothing wrong if the paranoia leads the world, it's very normal... to destroy blindly every potential danger, yes? The we must destroy almost every life in the world... to protect... what exactly? The paranoia is far from the caution. The caution is important, the paranoia is dangerous. And nothing inhumane in the Circles? Constantly watched, no privacy, lifetime imprisonment innocently, the love is forbidden, live in family forbidden, the mages are the property of the Chantry – they can "sell-buy" them as the slaves (Karl – for example, but many probably). And I didn't speak about the rapes and the other cruelties, the Tranquility, and the Harrowing... Not only Meredith's Circle is inhumane: every prison-Circle is. The system is inhumane. The Calenhad Tower just as terrible as the others – only a little difference between them. So, we are talking about mages or the world here? Make it clear please, and anyway mages are not the world, they are just another thing of the world, you have thinks mixed up. Constantly watched? that's how security works. No privacy? Sure because they have a templar at their side when taking a crap or when their sleeping. You are confusing supervise with harassing. Lifetime imprisonment innocently? That's completely subjective, you see a prision, I see a place to learn and become a proper mage, not exactly the same, but it's kind of like college or Hogwarts ala Harry Potter. Love is forbbiden? Love has many forms and you are reducing love to simply having a romance with someone, and no, love is not only romance, love has plenty of forms. Live in family is forbidden? I should search in this matter as i'm not sure, so I can't say much right now, (I say this because i'm not sure if sending letters or asking for go visit your parents or if visits to the circle are allowed) but again you are making it like living with family is a necessity and an absolute thing though. Well they pay to construct circles and form mages to be good and responsible, some degree of property is earned. "They can sell-buy", rapes and other cruelties, like dustyelf you are being advantageous and talking about isolated issues/incidents, those things happen everywhere any moment around Thedas with every type of people. Tranquility, i'm sure that again, you are referring to Meredith between lines when you are talking about Tranquility, yes Meredith used Tranquility as a punishment, but again you are being advantageous and trying to show me that Tranquility is used always like that, sorry but that's not the case, you are only seeing one side of things, because you want to and benefits your way of thinking, the normal use of Tranquility (basically in daily basis) it's when a mage is a potential danger to him and to the rest of people and if you turn the blind eye, then what will happen is that you will have an abomination fest, and that cannot be allowed to happen. To summarize you only see what you want to see because it's suits you, that's your problem. The Harrowing (has also some links with what I said above) a test to show (what you are so vehemently complaining about Meredith) that you will not fall to temptation, become power-hungry, and etc etc. After that you become a full fledged mage with full support, and if you fail means that you at some point will fall and you will become a danger to yourself and to others, so you become a Tranquil to prevent all of that. I see issues, like in all things, but I don't see anything inhumane.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 30, 2018 16:11:34 GMT
Okay, so, according to you, nothing wrong if the paranoia leads the world, it's very normal... to destroy blindly every potential danger, yes? The we must destroy almost every life in the world... to protect... what exactly? The paranoia is far from the caution. The caution is important, the paranoia is dangerous.
And nothing inhumane in the Circles? Constantly watched, no privacy, lifetime imprisonment innocently, the love is forbidden, live in family forbidden, the mages are the property of the Chantry – they can "sell-buy" them as the slaves (Karl – for example, but many probably). And I didn't speak about the rapes and the other cruelties, the Tranquility, and the Harrowing... Not only Meredith's Circle is inhumane: every prison-Circle is. The system is inhumane. The Calenhad Tower just as terrible as the others – only a little difference between them. So, we are talking about mages or the world here? Make it clear please, and anyway mages are not the world, they are just another thing of the world, you have thinks mixed up.
Constantly watched? that's how security works. No privacy? Sure because they have a templar at their side when taking a crap or when their sleeping. You are confusing supervise with harassing. Lifetime imprisonment innocently? That's completely subjective, you see a prision, I see a place to learn and become a proper mage, not exactly the same, but it's kind of like college or Hogwarts ala Harry Potter. Love is forbbiden? Love has many forms and you are reducing love to simply having a romance with someone, and no, love is not only romance, love has plenty of forms. Live in family is forbidden? I should search in this matter as i'm not sure, so I can't say much right now, (I say this because i'm not sure if sending letters or asking for go visit your parents or if visits to the circle are allowed) but again you are making it like living with family is a necessity and an absolute thing though.
Well they pay to construct circles and form mages to be good and responsible, some degree of property is earned. "They can sell-buy", rapes and other cruelties, like dustyelf you are being advantageous and talking about isolated issues/incidents, those things happen everywhere any moment around Thedas with every type of people.
Tranquility, i'm sure that again, you are referring to Meredith between lines when you are talking about Tranquility, yes Meredith used Tranquility as a punishment, but again you are being advantageous and trying to show me that Tranquility is used always like that, sorry but that's not the case, you are only seeing one side of things, because you want to and benefits your way of thinking, the normal use of Tranquility (basically in daily basis) it's when a mage is a potential danger to him and to the rest of people and if you turn the blind eye, then what will happen is that you will have an abomination fest, and that cannot be allowed to happen. To summarize you only see what you want to see because it's suits you, that's your problem.
The Harrowing (has also some links with what I said above) a test to show (what you are so vehemently complaining about Meredith) that you will not fall to temptation, become power-hungry, and etc etc. After that you become a full fledged mage with full support, and if you fail means that you at some point will fall and you will become a danger to yourself and to others, so you become a Tranquil to prevent all of that.
I see issues, like in all things, but I don't see anything inhumane. Yes, the Mages only a minority, but you told, that a totally okay if a society based on the institutionalized paranoia. And the paranoia always looks for "enemies", nobody can be safe. You completely forget, that the Circles aren't some boarding schools. There's no vacation, and after the deadly(!) test they still aren't able to leave without permission – and only temporarily. The mages need permission for everything: to send a letter (probably the Templars read it before), for example, and someone never allowed to it, to receive personal visitors (family) only rarely allowed. ( "It's like you need permission to be alive" – Anders, Awakening) Maddox became Tranquil because of a love letter. Perhaps Karl too, but rather because they wanted to use him to arrest Anders. You say the constant watching is "normal"? No. It just makes their lives unbearable: they're not monsters, they're people. This is just for intimidation. This isn't for the safety, this is a part of the torture – for break them, to be obeyed. To send Karl to another Circle is NOT an isolated case, why would be? The close relationships also rarely tolerated. (Asunder: Rhys and Adrian didn't risk to be lovers!) And they pay the construct? Such a grace! But in fact, the system is financed by the Tranquils (in Origins, Ostagar camp, the Tranquil). The Tranquils are useful. The system allows and supports the cruelty. Why do you think, Meredith's an isolated case? Not really, but if this would be true, this topic still about "Who actually sides with Meredith"And saying that rapes and abuses "happen everywhere any moment around Thedas with every type of people" true. But when it happens in a closed environment, where there is no chance of escape, the problem is bigger. You remember Keldar's case? If Hawke spares his life, Lia and her father leave Kirkwall, because they feel, not in safe there – but a mage can't just leave the Tower... And again: the system supports that. Or you even saw only ONE Templar who got his/her punishment for these things? (The punished Templars: Samson, because of supporting a mage, and Emeric, because wanted to do his work: wanted to investigate a missed mage's and another women's case, and a guy in City Guard uniform, who kicked from the Order, because didn't agree with Meredith's methods. In fact, Meredith appointed the "mage-haters" Alric and Karras were her close coworkers, and Cullen with his PTSD (probably she sees in him the young herself), became Knight-Captain, despite his young age.) About the Harrowing: in this form, unacceptable, and doesn't mean safety. Most of the knowing raging Abominations were harrowed mages. The whole prison-Circle system is inhumane and dangerous. Creates a false sense of security, but only a powder keg. you said: the mages learn here to be responsible? No. They doesn't learn any responsibility – they're like children, doesn't know anything about the life. Think about it: they're isolated from the world, everything what they know, know only from books. (And Anders argues similar in rivalry path, Act2, when starting the romance – I hate and never did rivalry path with him, but Anders has some good points there.)
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Post by warden on Apr 30, 2018 17:25:01 GMT
So, we are talking about mages or the world here? Make it clear please, and anyway mages are not the world, they are just another thing of the world, you have thinks mixed up.
Constantly watched? that's how security works. No privacy? Sure because they have a templar at their side when taking a crap or when their sleeping. You are confusing supervise with harassing. Lifetime imprisonment innocently? That's completely subjective, you see a prision, I see a place to learn and become a proper mage, not exactly the same, but it's kind of like college or Hogwarts ala Harry Potter. Love is forbbiden? Love has many forms and you are reducing love to simply having a romance with someone, and no, love is not only romance, love has plenty of forms. Live in family is forbidden? I should search in this matter as i'm not sure, so I can't say much right now, (I say this because i'm not sure if sending letters or asking for go visit your parents or if visits to the circle are allowed) but again you are making it like living with family is a necessity and an absolute thing though.
Well they pay to construct circles and form mages to be good and responsible, some degree of property is earned. "They can sell-buy", rapes and other cruelties, like dustyelf you are being advantageous and talking about isolated issues/incidents, those things happen everywhere any moment around Thedas with every type of people.
Tranquility, i'm sure that again, you are referring to Meredith between lines when you are talking about Tranquility, yes Meredith used Tranquility as a punishment, but again you are being advantageous and trying to show me that Tranquility is used always like that, sorry but that's not the case, you are only seeing one side of things, because you want to and benefits your way of thinking, the normal use of Tranquility (basically in daily basis) it's when a mage is a potential danger to him and to the rest of people and if you turn the blind eye, then what will happen is that you will have an abomination fest, and that cannot be allowed to happen. To summarize you only see what you want to see because it's suits you, that's your problem.
The Harrowing (has also some links with what I said above) a test to show (what you are so vehemently complaining about Meredith) that you will not fall to temptation, become power-hungry, and etc etc. After that you become a full fledged mage with full support, and if you fail means that you at some point will fall and you will become a danger to yourself and to others, so you become a Tranquil to prevent all of that.
I see issues, like in all things, but I don't see anything inhumane. Yes, the Mages only a minority, but you told, that a totally okay if a society based on the institutionalized paranoia. And the paranoia always looks for "enemies", nobody can be safe. You completely forget, that the Circles aren't some boarding schools. There's no vacation, and after the deadly(!) test they still aren't able to leave without permission – and only temporarily. The mages need permission for everything: to send a letter (probably the Templars read it before), for example, and someone never allowed to it, to receive personal visitors (family) only rarely allowed. ( "It's like you need permission to be alive" – Anders, Awakening) Maddox became Tranquil because of a love letter. Perhaps Karl too, but rather because they wanted to use him to arrest Anders. You say the constant watching is "normal"? No. It just makes their lives unbearable: they're not monsters, they're people. This is just for intimidation. This isn't for the safety, this is a part of the torture – for break them, to be obeyed. To send Karl to another Circle is NOT an isolated case, why would be? The close relationships also rarely tolerated. (Asunder: Rhys and Adrian didn't risk to be lovers!) And they pay the construct? Such a grace! And the Tranquils work for maintaining the institution. The Tranquils are useful. The system allows and supports the cruelty. Why do you think, Meredith's an isolated case? Not really, but if this would be true, this topic still about "Who actually sides with Meredith"And saying that rapes and abuses "happen everywhere any moment around Thedas with every type of people" true. But when it happens in a closed environment, where there is no chance of escape, the problem is bigger. You remember Keldar's case? If Hawke spares his life, Lia and her father leave Kirkwall, because they feel, not in safe there – but a mage can't just leave the Tower... And again: the system supports that. Or you even saw only ONE Templar who got his/her punishment for these things? (The punished Templars: Samson, because of supporting a mage, and Emeric, because wanted to do his work: wanted to investigate a missed mage's and another women's case, and a guy in City Guard uniform, who kicked from the Order, because didn't agree with Meredith's methods. In fact, Meredith appointed the "mage-haters" Alric and Karras were her close coworkers, and Cullen with his PTSD (probably she sees in him the young herself), became Knight-Captain, despite his young age.) About the Harrowing: in this form, unacceptable, and doesn't mean safety. Most of the knowing raging Abominations were harrowed mages. The whole prison-Circle system is inhumane and dangerous. Creates a false sense of security, but only a powder keg. you said: the mages learn here to be responsible? No. They doesn't learn any responsibility – they're like children, doesn't know anything about the life. (Anders arguments, rivalry path, Act2, starting romance – I hate and never did rivalry path with him, but Anders has some good points there.) I never told that the world should be ruled by paranoia, don't put words on my mouth that I didn't said, What I said is that paranoia is fine for me, if you read carefully, this are two different things, you are just making things of your own that we never talked about in this thread and including me in it. I never said that circles are schools, I said they have similarities, that's it. You can never be sure with normal people, on how they will turn out, imagine with mages. It's like if you tell me that because Darkspawn are underground and not a "visible" thread, Wardens shouldn't bother to keep watch, just wait that a random Darkspawn raid or a blight to start, then and only then they can act. Maddox background aside to know that he was from the circle of Kirkwall, there is not enough information about him, we don't know how he was and what things did, but anyway, you say the used him to capture Anders, so that means that Maddox probably was colaboriting with him, basically a danger, a war started because of this guy you know. Karl more of the same, ex-lover of the guy that started a war. "Why I think Meredith is an isolated case?" Why do you think it's not? it's not like there are any facts to believe it. I agree we already are way out of topic, this is just another mage vs templar (but not completely) argument, instead of who sides with Meredith. it does not matter if the enviroment is closed or not, if you get raped means that you couldn't escape regardless where you are, and anyway is not like circles are sealed completely, you can escape, it's hard but you can escape, you already mentioned an example, Anders. Again you use Meredith (and Anders comments) isolated case to reflect all circles, like it's the absolute truth, and it's not, like in everything, there will be always people that are unhappy or don't conform with anything and all it's bad, and that is just being selfish that's the fact. Let me rephrase, why I meant for responsible, is that they learn to be responsible with they power. I never said that it meant safety, I said that serves as a prove that you are actually ready and you are capable to be responsible with your dangerous power. False sense of security? Serves to detect potential dangers and allows a chance to prevent them, there is nothing more save than that. And do you really think that Anders is a good example of knowing about life and responsabilities? Hilarious. If you want to mention mages that know about "life" and how to be responsible mention Wynne, Irving or even Finn, (that fella from the Witch Hunt DLC) but not Anders, since Awakening you could saw that that guy was just the typical edgy person that thinks that knows all, and believes he is right, in other words a trainwreck. Anyway, feel free to answer me back if you want, but this will just be an agree to disagree argument, so from my part i'll stop here, cause anyway we are way out of topic.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 30, 2018 17:57:51 GMT
Nothing wrong with paranoia, better to be on guard than be catched wide open. Didn't see anything inhumane in the circles, that's your own making and false, and I wouldn't call mages humans exactly, at least not normal humans.And what I have to look about Meredith? Every single thing you said can be found on daily basis anywhere in Thedas, that you only see Meredith because is what it was shown in Dragon Age 2, it's your problem. In DA2 Meredith allowed Ser Alric to rape the mages. Meredith is Knight Commander and she allowed her subordinate to treat mages that way, pretty inhumane. Sure, rapes occur in Ferelden and every where else doesn't make it acceptable behavior in the circle. Neither does the thinking that because mages are not like normal humans without power they can be treated less humanly and without dignity. I do like Meredith as a character with many flaws and she could have been a strong leader for good, she only needed to clean her house a bit and treat mages better. While Meredith is guilty of many things but she is not guilty of that. The game shows that Alric’s actions were unknown to his superiors since he took great care to keep it secret. We see examples of this in real life like there being a prison guard or group of guards who have a secret sex ring going on while the warden and other guards are unaware of it.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Apr 30, 2018 18:19:32 GMT
In DA2 Meredith allowed Ser Alric to rape the mages. Meredith is Knight Commander and she allowed her subordinate to treat mages that way, pretty inhumane. Sure, rapes occur in Ferelden and every where else doesn't make it acceptable behavior in the circle. Neither does the thinking that because mages are not like normal humans without power they can be treated less humanly and without dignity. I do like Meredith as a character with many flaws and she could have been a strong leader for good, she only needed to clean her house a bit and treat mages better. While Meredith is guilty of many things but she is not guilty of that. The game shows that Alric’s actions were unknown to his superiors since he took great care to keep it secret. We see examples of this in real life like there being a prison guard or group of guards who have a secret sex ring going on while the warden and other guards are unaware of it. Meredith's responsible for the whole Circle, and her superior, the Chantry, in Kirkwall Elthina. Both are guilty. Even if they didn't know about every concrete case. If Hawke heard about the cases, Meredith why didn't? If she didn't know about Alric, she's guilty of the sin of blindness... in her position is a big sin. This is her job. To keep the order on her garbage-dump. And: Alric was who tranquilized Karl. The Tranquility can't happen without the agreement of the Knight Commander. How would able to do it Alric?
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Apr 30, 2018 19:17:14 GMT
Yes, the Mages only a minority, but you told, that a totally okay if a society based on the institutionalized paranoia. And the paranoia always looks for "enemies", nobody can be safe.
You completely forget, that the Circles aren't some boarding schools. There's no vacation, and after the deadly(!) test they still aren't able to leave without permission – and only temporarily. The mages need permission for everything: to send a letter (probably the Templars read it before), for example, and someone never allowed to it, to receive personal visitors (family) only rarely allowed. ("It's like you need permission to be alive" – Anders, Awakening) Maddox became Tranquil because of a love letter. Perhaps Karl too, but rather because they wanted to use him to arrest Anders. You say the constant watching is "normal"? No. It just makes their lives unbearable: they're not monsters, they're people. This is just for intimidation. This isn't for the safety, this is a part of the torture – for break them, to be obeyed. To send Karl to another Circle is NOT an isolated case, why would be? The close relationships also rarely tolerated. (Asunder: Rhys and Adrian didn't risk to be lovers!)
And they pay the construct? Such a grace! And the Tranquils work for maintaining the institution. The Tranquils are useful.
The system allows and supports the cruelty. Why do you think, Meredith's an isolated case? Not really, but if this would be true, this topic still about "Who actually sides with Meredith" And saying that rapes and abuses "happen everywhere any moment around Thedas with every type of people" true. But when it happens in a closed environment, where there is no chance of escape, the problem is bigger. You remember Keldar's case? If Hawke spares his life, Lia and her father leave Kirkwall, because they feel, not in safe there – but a mage can't just leave the Tower... And again: the system supports that. Or you even saw only ONE Templar who got his/her punishment for these things? (The punished Templars: Samson, because of supporting a mage, and Emeric, because wanted to do his work: wanted to investigate a missed mage's and another women's case, and a guy in City Guard uniform, who kicked from the Order, because didn't agree with Meredith's methods. In fact, Meredith appointed the "mage-haters" Alric and Karras were her close coworkers, and Cullen with his PTSD (probably she sees in him the young herself), became Knight-Captain, despite his young age.)
About the Harrowing: in this form, unacceptable, and doesn't mean safety. Most of the knowing raging Abominations were harrowed mages. The whole prison-Circle system is inhumane and dangerous. Creates a false sense of security, but only a powder keg. you said: the mages learn here to be responsible? No. They doesn't learn any responsibility – they're like children, doesn't know anything about the life. (Anders arguments, rivalry path, Act2, starting romance – I hate and never did rivalry path with him, but Anders has some good points there. I never told that the world should be ruled by paranoia, don't put words on my mouth that I didn't said, What I said is that paranoia is fine for me, if you read carefully, this are two different things, you are just making things of your own that we never talked about in this thread and including me in it.
I never said that circles are schools, I said they have similarities, that's it. You can never be sure with normal people, on how they will turn out, imagine with mages. It's like if you tell me that because Darkspawn are underground and not a "visible" thread, Wardens shouldn't bother to keep watch, just wait that a random Darkspawn raid or a blight to start, then and only then they can act. Maddox background aside to know that he was from the circle of Kirkwall, there is not enough information about him, we don't know how he was and what things did, but anyway, you say the used him to capture Anders, so that means that Maddox probably was colaboriting with him, basically a danger, a war started because of this guy you know. Karl more of the same, ex-lover of the guy that started a war.
"Why I think Meredith is an isolated case?" Why do you think it's not? it's not like there are any facts to believe it. I agree we already are way out of topic, this is just another mage vs templar (but not completely) argument, instead of who sides with Meredith.
it does not matter if the enviroment is closed or not, if you get raped means that you couldn't escape regardless where you are, and anyway is not like circles are sealed completely, you can escape, it's hard but you can escape, you already mentioned an example, Anders. Again you use Meredith (and Anders comments) isolated case to reflect all circles, like it's the absolute truth, and it's not, like in everything, there will be always people that are unhappy or don't conform with anything and all it's bad, and that is just being selfish that's the fact.
Let me rephrase, why I meant for responsible, is that they learn to be responsible with they power. I never said that it meant safety, I said that serves as a prove that you are actually ready and you are capable to be responsible with your dangerous power. False sense of security? Serves to detect potential dangers and allows a chance to prevent them, there is nothing more save than that. And do you really think that Anders is a good example of know about life and responsabilities? Hilarious. If you want to mention mages that know about "life" and how to be responsible mention Wynne, Irving or even Finn, (that fella from the Witch Hunt DLC) but not Anders, since Awakening you could saw that that guy was just the typical edgy person that thinks that knows all, and believes he is right, in other words a trainwreck.
Anyway, feel free to answer me back if you want, but this will just be an agree to disagree argument, so from my part i'll stop here, cause anyway we are way out of topic. You said you don't see, what's wrong with the paranoia, that the paranoia just fine for you. And the system based on the paranoia. I just said the institutionalized paranoia is dangerous (even more than the mages). The fact, that Anders' able to escape from the Circle, not a good example for proving: everyone able to escape from the rapes. Most of the people aren't. Not mentioned, the rape can be a tool of the discipline in such a prison. And don't forget: the Templars arrested Anders always right after he escaped, and brought back to the Circle. Most of the people would be broken and would be able to accept their fate. Anders is an exception. We don't know how responsible is Finn: we don't know almost anything about him, except he hates the outdoor things and loves the library and the history... Nobody said that the education's not important, and to be master of their ability, not even Anders. But the responsibility's not about that. You said, Anders thinks, he's right, yes, he believes, he's right – just as many people believe, s/he's right, just as Wynne believe she's right, and Vivienne believes, she's right. The fact Anders believes, he's right, doesn't mean, he's not right. He's absolutely right about that the Circle doesn't teach the mages to the responsibility. But he even said, that the Circle is good with the education, in fact, the best in it (Anders–Bethany banter, Act1)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 30, 2018 23:23:33 GMT
While Meredith is guilty of many things but she is not guilty of that. The game shows that Alric’s actions were unknown to his superiors since he took great care to keep it secret. We see examples of this in real life like there being a prison guard or group of guards who have a secret sex ring going on while the warden and other guards are unaware of it. Meredith's responsible for the whole Circle, and her superior, the Chantry, in Kirkwall Elthina. Both are guilty. Even if they didn't know about every concrete case. If Hawke heard about the cases, Meredith why didn't? If she didn't know about Alric, she's guilty of the sin of blindness... in her position is a big sin. This is her job. To keep the order on her garbage-dump. And: Alric was who tranquilized Karl. The Tranquility can't happen without the agreement of the Knight Commander. How would able to do it Alric? Do you really want to open this door? After all if you do then it swings both ways and people like Orsino, Irving, Fiona, etc are guilty of every atrocity any mage in the Circles commit since they are the superiors of those mages. While Meredith is guilty of many things but she is not guilty of that. The game shows that Alric’s actions were unknown to his superiors since he took great care to keep it secret. We see examples of this in real life like there being a prison guard or group of guards who have a secret sex ring going on while the warden and other guards are unaware of it. Meredith is in charge of the Templars, she sets the tone for her command to follow. She is ultimately responsible for creating the atmosphere that allowed Ser Alirk, Ser Karras and the rest of their group to make them believe and know they can rape at will and nothing will be done about it. And they were right. Ser Alriks group was pretty big when he cornered and threatened Ella. Alain talks openly in the gallows about being visited at night and there are Templars nearby. Even Anders who was not raped in the Ferelden circle heard about rapes from other mages. Since you are using real life, people in tight quarters where they spend a lot of time together hear things, see things that go on around them. In your example above the prison warden was derelict in his duty and that does not absolve him of creating the atmosphere to allow the sex ring and then claiming he didn't know about it. The fact that people like Alrik and Karras to keep their little rapescapades a secret shows that the environment and atmosphere didn't allow their actions. And really, Alrik's group was big? There were less than half a dozen Templars there. And as has been pointed out before, crimes like rape are going to happen regardless of the area so just because criminals break the law doesn't mean the law endorse those behaviors. So you think a person who has to oversee hundreds of people is guilty of the crimes that a few commit in secret? By that logic the Irving is guilty of the crimes that Uldred and his followers did because they were under his watch, and thus the Templars annuling the Circle is the right decision since everyone involved is guilty. Same with Orsino and the Kirkwall Circle and really all of the mages.
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