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Post by Catilina on Apr 30, 2018 23:36:36 GMT
Meredith's responsible for the whole Circle, and her superior, the Chantry, in Kirkwall Elthina. Both are guilty. Even if they didn't know about every concrete case. If Hawke heard about the cases, Meredith why didn't? If she didn't know about Alric, she's guilty of the sin of blindness... in her position is a big sin. This is her job. To keep the order on her garbage-dump.
And: Alric was who tranquilized Karl. The Tranquility can't happen without the agreement of the Knight Commander. How would able to do it Alric? Do you really want to open this door? After all if you do then it swings both ways and people like Orsino, Irving, Fiona, etc are guilty of every atrocity any mage in the Circles commit since they are the superiors of those mages. Meredith is in charge of the Templars, she sets the tone for her command to follow. She is ultimately responsible for creating the atmosphere that allowed Ser Alirk, Ser Karras and the rest of their group to make them believe and know they can rape at will and nothing will be done about it. And they were right.
Ser Alriks group was pretty big when he cornered and threatened Ella. Alain talks openly in the gallows about being visited at night and there are Templars nearby. Even Anders who was not raped in the Ferelden circle heard about rapes from other mages.
Since you are using real life, people in tight quarters where they spend a lot of time together hear things, see things that go on around them. In your example above the prison warden was derelict in his duty and that does not absolve him of creating the atmosphere to allow the sex ring and then claiming he didn't know about it. The fact that people like Alrik and Karras to keep their little rapescapades a secret shows that the environment and atmosphere didn't allow their actions. And really, Alrik's group was big? There were less than half a dozen Templars there. And as has been pointed out before, crimes like rape are going to happen regardless of the area so just because criminals break the law doesn't mean the law endorse those behaviors. By your logic Irving is guilty of the crimes that Uldred and his followers did because they were under his watch, and thus the Templars annuling the Circle is the right decision since everyone involved is guilty. The difference is: A mage can be punished, even the First Enchanter (who is just a senior prisoner), but not a Templar. Again: I ask for only ONE example when only ONE Templar punished for rape, violence or any abuse... And yes. The First Enchanter would responsible for the mages... Just as a senior slave for the slaves, who tried to kill their master... But still the Knight Commander responsible for the whole Circle... This is the Knight Commander's work. And the Chantry responsible for the Circles. But I see, do you think, Meredith isn't responsible anything just for her big red demonic sword she cuddles... while his Templars rape the mages... day after day. And Elthina for the eternity what she got for reward at the end. You speak about like inside the Circle a First Enchanter and the Knight Commander would be equal, ESPECIALLY in Kirkwall, where the Viscount was not equal with the Knight Commander.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 30, 2018 23:53:31 GMT
The fact that people like Alrik and Karras to keep their little rapescapades a secret shows that the environment and atmosphere didn't allow their actions. And really, Alrik's group was big? There were less than half a dozen Templars there. And as has been pointed out before, crimes like rape are going to happen regardless of the area so just because criminals break the law doesn't mean the law endorse those behaviors. By your logic Irving is guilty of the crimes that Uldred and his followers did because they were under his watch, and thus the Templars annuling the Circle is the right decision since everyone involved is guilty. I think there were more than six that I killed. But doesn't really matter the size, in a mostly closed environment where the mages and templars are together well, people talk, others listen. That's quite a leap, the second part and I would disagree. The Templars are similar to a military unit with a similar command structure, following orders/commands, working in unit is important as is discipline. Meredith was the commander of the Templars. Irving was only the head mage he did not have the military command or military structure that Meredith had. Meredith was not able to control Ser Alrik and his group. Its a failure on her part. And she knew so much that was going on in the city had more control over even the port then the Viscount or the Guard; its hard to believe she didn't know about Ser Alrick's group and their abuses. Alain went over to Thrask for help, and Thrask didn't care for Karras, of course he was a brute but still Thrask knew something enough to dislike Karras. Using only the cutscene, since I don't really count the actual fight due to gameplay-lore segregation, there are only around four Templars including Alric himself. Out of the hundreds of Templars and Mages at the Circle, those small numbers are easily missable if they cover their tracks like we are shown they did. Yes, because there have never been soldiers who go against orders and commit crimes then keep it secret so their superiors didn't know. I agree that it is a failure on her part. However that is a huge difference from her allowing them to do it and being guilty of their crimes as you said in the post I quoted. That was what I was arguing against.
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Post by Catilina on May 1, 2018 0:04:19 GMT
I think there were more than six that I killed. But doesn't really matter the size, in a mostly closed environment where the mages and templars are together well, people talk, others listen.
That's quite a leap, the second part and I would disagree. The Templars are similar to a military unit with a similar command structure, following orders/commands, working in unit is important as is discipline. Meredith was the commander of the Templars. Irving was only the head mage he did not have the military command or military structure that Meredith had.
Meredith was not able to control Ser Alrik and his group. Its a failure on her part. And she knew so much that was going on in the city had more control over even the port then the Viscount or the Guard; its hard to believe she didn't know about Ser Alrick's group and their abuses. Alain went over to Thrask for help, and Thrask didn't care for Karras, of course he was a brute but still Thrask knew something enough to dislike Karras. Using only the cutscene, since I don't really count the actual fight due to gameplay-lore segregation, there are only around four Templars including Alric himself. Out of the hundreds of Templars and Mages at the Circle, those small numbers are easily missable if they cover their tracks like we are shown they did. Yes, because there have never been soldiers who go against orders and commit crimes then keep it secret so their superiors didn't know. I agree that it is a failure on her part. However that is a huge difference from her allowing them to do it and being guilty of their crimes as you said in the post I quoted. That was what I was arguing against. This isn't a "failure" this is a sin. Meredith's a criminal. Hawke knew about the abuses. Anders knew about the abuses. ONLY Meredith didn't know about the abuses, yes? She ALLOWED and SUPPORTED the abuses, rapes, tortures, tranquillizes because this is a tool to keep the Mages in fear. The random violence is scary. A pretty effective tool to the discipline. Again you can present only ONE example for a punished Templar? (Not Samson, Emeric or that ex-Templar guy in the Gallows in City Guard uniform.)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 1, 2018 0:15:20 GMT
This isn't a "failure" this is a sin. Hawke knew about the abuses. Anders knew about the abuses. ONLY Meredith didn't know about the abuses, yes? She ALLOWED and SUPPORTED the abuses, rapes, tortures, tranquillizes because this is a tool to keep the Mages in fear. The random violence is scary. A pretty effective tool to the discipline. Again you can present only ONE example for a punished Templar? (Not Samson, Emeric or that ex-Templar guy in the Gallows in City Guard uniform.) Show me where in the game it explicitly states that she allowed and supported Alric's actions? You cannot, for it does not exist. You want an example? Okay. Meredith. She is punished for her actions by Cullen deeming her unfit to lead and stripping her of her command. She goes down fighting instead of allowing them to arrest her, but it is still her being punished for her abuses. Knight-Commander Martel is another example, his actions being punished by Cassandra in Dawn of the Seeker. He was defeated by her, arrested and taken to stand trial but he broke free and tried to attack again causing Cassandra to kill him.
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Post by Catilina on May 1, 2018 0:26:08 GMT
This isn't a "failure" this is a sin. Hawke knew about the abuses. Anders knew about the abuses. ONLY Meredith didn't know about the abuses, yes? She ALLOWED and SUPPORTED the abuses, rapes, tortures, tranquillizes because this is a tool to keep the Mages in fear. The random violence is scary. A pretty effective tool to the discipline. Again you can present only ONE example for a punished Templar? (Not Samson, Emeric or that ex-Templar guy in the Gallows in City Guard uniform.) Show me where in the game it explicitly states that she allowed and supported Alric's actions? You cannot, for it does not exist. You want an example? Okay. Meredith. She is punished for her actions by Cullen deeming her unfit to lead and stripping her of her command. She goes down fighting instead of allowing them to arrest her, but it is still her being punished for her abuses. Knight-Commander Martel is another example, his actions being punished by Cassandra in Dawn of the Seeker. He was defeated by her, arrested and taken to stand trial but he broke free and tried to attack again causing Cassandra to kill him. That Templar in the Dawn of the Seeker punished because attacked the Chantry, not because abused the Mages. Meredith "punished" by Cullen, because she turned on Hawke and him. NOT because she abused the mages. He agrees with Hawke, if Hawke wants to spare some mages, but he doesn't attack Meredith if Hawke let him kill these surrenders. In fact, Cullen agreed with her methods (even in the Inquisition he tries to defend her). There's no Templar who was punished because of raped or tortured a mage. Anders tells to Hawke, that the Knight Commander at least believes, her work is useful, but Alric a "lizard". And Anders' is too benevolent. He needs proof before he accuses anyone.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 1, 2018 0:29:34 GMT
Show me where in the game it explicitly states that she allowed and supported Alric's actions? You cannot, for it does not exist. You want an example? Okay. Meredith. She is punished for her actions by Cullen deeming her unfit to lead and stripping her of her command. She goes down fighting instead of allowing them to arrest her, but it is still her being punished for her abuses. Knight-Commander Martel is another example, his actions being punished by Cassandra in Dawn of the Seeker. He was defeated by her, arrested and taken to stand trial but he broke free and tried to attack again causing Cassandra to kill him. That Templar in the Dawn of the Seeker punished because attacked the Chantry, not because abused the Mages. Meredith "punished" by Cullen, because she turned on Hawke and him. NOT because she abused the mages. He agrees with Hawke, if Hawke wants to spare some mages, but he doesn't attack Meredith if Hawke let him kill these surrenders. In fact, Cullen agreed with her methods (even in the Inquisition he tries to defend her). There's no Templar who was punished because of raped or tortured a mage. Anders tells to Hawke, that the Knight Commander at least believes, her work is useful, but Alric a "lizard". And Anders' is too benevolent. He needs proof before he accuses anyone. Your post asked for a punished Templar, and I gave you not one but two. You can't wave those as not counting because you decided to shift the goalposts. Still waiting for the explicit concrete evidence.
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Post by Catilina on May 1, 2018 0:34:41 GMT
That Templar in the Dawn of the Seeker punished because attacked the Chantry, not because abused the Mages. Meredith "punished" by Cullen, because she turned on Hawke and him. NOT because she abused the mages. He agrees with Hawke, if Hawke wants to spare some mages, but he doesn't attack Meredith if Hawke let him kill these surrenders. In fact, Cullen agreed with her methods (even in the Inquisition he tries to defend her). There's no Templar who was punished because of raped or tortured a mage. Anders tells to Hawke, that the Knight Commander at least believes, her work is useful, but Alric a "lizard". And Anders' is too benevolent. He needs proof before he accuses anyone. Your post asked for a punished Templar, and I gave you not one but two. You can't wave those as not counting because you decided to shift the goalposts. Okay, I know more templars who was punished (I already wrote them... so again). Emeric, because wanted to investigate some women who missed, for example, a mage... Samson, because helped to a mage And a guy at the Gallows, because didn't agree with Meredith. Probably there some more Templars who was punished because opposed the Knight Commanders' methods (or attacked the Chantry)... BUT not because committed violence against a mage. Do you need explicit evidence? SHE was the Knight Commander. Alric tranquilized a mage without she would know about it? There's no "explicit" proof, the proof is that everything is her responsibility inside the Circle. She worked with a criminal gang, and she was who appointed them and was responsible for them.
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Post by warden on May 1, 2018 8:19:54 GMT
First, you are being advantageous here, and second you are only naming one isolated issue, as already being said, that happens everywhere anytime. I see an incident but I still don't see circles as inhumane. It's sad but unfortunately, that's how things work in Thedas society, nothing can be done about it, and seeing how things have gone, agree or not I can understand it, and anyway I think that if you think that you deserve trust, then work to earn it. Only pointing out one way the mages are treated inhumanely there are others. Why would it be humane to allow rape in the circle because it it widespread? Rape is still immoral and criminal whether it is in the closed circles or the rest of the world. There is lots that Meredith could have done to stop Ser Alrik, Karras and the group but she turned a blind eye to it. Again, nothing that already happens with every type of people, you are just trying to say (or imply) that this things only happen to mages and don't have justice, while it's not. You are assuming that Meredith has full control and knowledge of every single member of the Templar order in Kirkwall, and commands and knows every single movement and actions of every single one of them, sorry but that's impossible, and in any case if someone has really guilt for turning a blind eye it's Orsino, letting Quentin wandering around killing and practicing forbidden arts, when he was well aware of it unlike Meredith with those two templars. The only thing I see here is that you are only focusing in one side of the spectrum and taking it to your advantage. The way I see it, to me they are all guilty.
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Post by Catilina on May 1, 2018 12:33:21 GMT
Only pointing out one way the mages are treated inhumanely there are others. Why would it be humane to allow rape in the circle because it it widespread? Rape is still immoral and criminal whether it is in the closed circles or the rest of the world. There is lots that Meredith could have done to stop Ser Alrik, Karras and the group but she turned a blind eye to it. Again, nothing that already happens with every type of people, you are just trying to say (or imply) that this things only happen to mages and don't have justice, while it's not. You are assuming that Meredith has full control and knowledge of every single member of the Templar order in Kirkwall, and commands and knows every single movement and actions of every single one of them, sorry but that's impossible, and in any case if someone has really guilt for turning a blind eye it's Orsino, letting Quentin wandering around killing and practicing forbidden arts, when he was well aware of it unlike Meredith with those two templars. The only thing I see here is that you are only focusing in one side of the spectrum and taking it to your advantage. The way I see it, to me they are all guilty.They're not equal, and this is the point. Meredith's a corrupt Knight Commander with more power than ever then the Chantry law allows her. She rules over the city, against the law, and hampers the work of the City Guards and prevents the viscount election. The mages're prisoners and Orsino no matter, he's only a senior prisoner, doesn't have any power, in fact he doesn't have any freedom...
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Post by warden on May 1, 2018 12:36:04 GMT
Basically, all gets summarized in that you are wasting my time and that's funny to you.
Good to know. Warden, that is not an accurate assessment of what I posted. It is sad you feel that way. Yeah, it's sad to see humans refuse to expand their views and be capable to see all sides of the spectrum. They know one side, someone shows them another side so now they have the opportunity of amplify their views but they refuse and lock themselves to only one, then they try to make you believe (directly or indirectly) that that's right, when they refuse to learn even more. This is what really is sad and disheartening.
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Post by Catilina on May 1, 2018 12:44:20 GMT
Warden, that is not an accurate assessment of what I posted. It is sad you feel that way. Yeah, it's sad to see humans refuse to expand their views and be capable to see all sides of the spectrum. They know one side, someone shows them another side so now they have the opportunity of amplify their views but they refuse and lock themselves to only one, then they try to make you believe (directly or indirectly) that that's right, when they refuse to learn even more. This is what really is sad and disheartening. Meredith inherently wrong, a criminal. And has power to be wrong, because the Chantry's local power allows it. She and her system must be destroyed, for everyone. For the mages, and for Kirkwall too. And at the moment neither Anders, nor Orsino matter, only the fact, that must stop a criminal tyrant. This is the greatest picture in Kirkwall. Meredith's the cancer of the city, with Elthina.
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Post by warden on May 1, 2018 12:50:17 GMT
Yeah, it's sad to see humans refuse to expand their views and be capable to see all sides of the spectrum. They know one side, someone shows them another side so now they have the opportunity of amplify their views but they refuse and lock themselves to only one, then they try to make you believe (directly or indirectly) that that's right, when they refuse to learn even more. This is what really is sad and disheartening. Meredith inherently wrong, a criminal. And has power to be wrong, because the Chantry's local power allows it. She and her system must be destroyed, for everyone. For the mages, and for Kirkwall too. And at the moment neither Anders, nor Orsino matter, only the fact, that must stop a criminal tyrant. This is the greatest picture in Kirkwall. Meredith's the cancer of the city, with Elthina. Your blind fanaticism is really off the charts, with every comment you are fascinating me even more. You are really a creature to analyze in deep.
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Post by Catilina on May 1, 2018 13:02:32 GMT
Meredith inherently wrong, a criminal. And has power to be wrong, because the Chantry's local power allows it. She and her system must be destroyed, for everyone. For the mages, and for Kirkwall too. And at the moment neither Anders, nor Orsino matter, only the fact, that must stop a criminal tyrant. This is the greatest picture in Kirkwall. Meredith's the cancer of the city, with Elthina. Your blind fanaticism is really off the charts, with every comment you are fascinating me even more. You are really a creature to analyze in deep. Am I fanatic? Meredith's fanatism and paranoia jeopardizes the whole city, and Elthina blind eyes.
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Post by warden on May 1, 2018 13:17:05 GMT
Your blind fanaticism is really off the charts, with every comment you are fascinating me even more. You are really a creature to analyze in deep. Am I fanatic? Meredith's fanatism and paranoia jeopardizes the whole city, and Elthina blind eyes. Well, a person that tries to justify every single action of what mages do and constantly tries to show them as the absolute good, and then refuses to see what others are explaining and keeps going and going without stopping to think or listen, yeah you are as much as fanatic as your beloved Meredith. Just in different ways.
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Post by Catilina on May 1, 2018 13:31:33 GMT
Am I fanatic? Meredith's fanatism and paranoia jeopardizes the whole city, and Elthina blind eyes. Well, a person that tries to justify every single action of what mages do and constantly tries to show them as the absolute good, and then refuses to see what others are explaining and keeps going and going without stopping to think or listen, yeah you are as much as fanatic as your beloved Meredith. Just in different ways. No, the "mages" are people, among them, exist good and bad persons, just as among the Templars. They're people – not a homogeneous masse. The situation makes the "Templars" "bad" – the Templar Order serves a bad law, a bad solution – in the undeniable cruel Circle, under a corrupt commander. The situation is what justifies Anders' morally questionable tool. And the situation shows, that Meredith's unacceptable. Meredith doesn't give a shit about the safety of the city. She stopped the investigation of Ser Emeric, and punished him because he wanted to continue that. She doesn't want to deal with Anders, he wants to kill every mage inside the Circle, because of Anders, no matter, Anders alive or not.
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Vive la révolution mages!
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 532 Likes: 952
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Post by Cantina on May 2, 2018 1:40:56 GMT
Well, a person that tries to justify every single action of what mages do and constantly tries to show them as the absolute good, and then refuses to see what others are explaining and keeps going and going without stopping to think or listen, yeah you are as much as fanatic as your beloved Meredith. Just in different ways. No, the "mages" are people, among them, exist good and bad persons, just as among the Templars. They're people – not a homogeneous masse. The situation makes the "Templars" "bad" – the Templar Order serves a bad law, a bad solution – in the undeniable cruel Circle, under a corrupt commander. The situation is what justifies Anders' morally questionable tool. And the situation shows, that Meredith's unacceptable. Meredith doesn't give a shit about the safety of the city. She stopped the investigation of Ser Emeric, and punished him because he wanted to continue that. She doesn't want to deal with Anders, he wants to kill every mage inside the Circle, because of Anders, no matter, Anders alive or not. And let us throw-in the fact Grand Cleric Elthina exacerbates the situation by saying, "Oh, there is nothing I can do." Meredith becomes worse because The Chantry allows her to do so. Thus condoning her actions instead of reprimanding Meredith for said actions. Then again, the Chantry has always been passive aggressive hypocrites when it comes to the poor treatment of mages.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 2, 2018 4:01:26 GMT
No, the "mages" are people, among them, exist good and bad persons, just as among the Templars. They're people – not a homogeneous masse. The situation makes the "Templars" "bad" – the Templar Order serves a bad law, a bad solution – in the undeniable cruel Circle, under a corrupt commander. The situation is what justifies Anders' morally questionable tool. And the situation shows, that Meredith's unacceptable. Meredith doesn't give a shit about the safety of the city. She stopped the investigation of Ser Emeric, and punished him because he wanted to continue that. She doesn't want to deal with Anders, he wants to kill every mage inside the Circle, because of Anders, no matter, Anders alive or not. And let us throw-in the fact Grand Cleric Elthina exacerbates the situation by saying, "Oh, there is nothing I can do." Meredith becomes worse because The Chantry allows her to do so. Thus condoning her actions instead of reprimanding Meredith for said actions. Then again, the Chantry has always been passive aggressive hypocrites when it comes to the poor treatment of mages. Except the Chantry was in the middle of investigating the issue so they could know how best to proceed in dealing with it. The Divine at the time was pro-mage, to the point that that caused a lot of the Seekers and Templars to leave the Chantry in the beginning of the war. Ironically if Anders had waited he would most likely have gotten what he wanted or at least huge steps in the right direction. Too bad he decided to become a warmongering terrorist thus dooming the people he claims he wanted to save, and even then it was all for nothing since that didn't spark the war he wanted, instead that being a different issue a few years later.
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N3
Vive la révolution mages!
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 532 Likes: 952
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Post by Cantina on May 2, 2018 5:04:10 GMT
And let us throw-in the fact Grand Cleric Elthina exacerbates the situation by saying, "Oh, there is nothing I can do." Meredith becomes worse because The Chantry allows her to do so. Thus condoning her actions instead of reprimanding Meredith for said actions. Then again, the Chantry has always been passive aggressive hypocrites when it comes to the poor treatment of mages. Except the Chantry was in the middle of investigating the issue so they could know how best to proceed in dealing with it. The Divine at the time was pro-mage, to the point that that caused a lot of the Seekers and Templars to leave the Chantry in the beginning of the war. Ironically if Anders had waited he would most likely have gotten what he wanted or at least huge steps in the right direction. Too bad he decided to become a warmongering terrorist thus dooming the people he claims he wanted to save, and even then it was all for nothing since that didn't spark the war he wanted, instead that being a different issue a few years later. Varric stated the issues with mages started in the Champion's second year. Then later we find out from Cullen that those problems were there before he arrive. So, it took the Divine, 12-13 years to decide to do something about it? Please. The Divine could have stepped in sooner. When you see smoke you don't sit there and wait til a fire starts to do something about it. I would not go so far as to say Divine Justina was pro-mage, more understanding about the mages plight, but certainly was not waving a flag about it. The Templars rebelled because Divine Justina asked -politely- for the Templars to back-off the mages. The Templars got pissed because they felt, "Hey! We been doing this for thousands of years without another Divine saying shit, now one does? Fuck her!" You do realize that Kirkwall was a catalyst? The events in Val R. took place three years after the explosion of the Kirkwall Chantry. And those events, AKA the mini Conclave was Divine's way for trying to prevent a full scale war, even though she could have stepped in much sooner. Basically the Divine was trying to clean-up a mess she allowed to continue. And when the Templars decided to walk away, The Divine took the "side" of mages because she felt guilty. Not to mention Seeker Lambert did not help the situation at all. Ahh, I love when people call Anders a terrorist. Far easier to slap a label on someone or something without looking at all the evidence as to why that is an inaccurate classification to give. Why were at it, let us call Solas one too, oh and Lohgain. They both created an event based on their wants/fears in order to establish an outlook that benefits them and gives bullshit reasons for doing so.
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Post by davesin on May 2, 2018 5:47:50 GMT
Varric stated the issues with mages started in the Champion's second year. Then later we find out from Cullen that those problems were there before he arrive. So, it took the Divine, 12-13 years to decide to do something about it? 3 years, actually. She was elected 9:34.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 2, 2018 6:15:21 GMT
Except the Chantry was in the middle of investigating the issue so they could know how best to proceed in dealing with it. The Divine at the time was pro-mage, to the point that that caused a lot of the Seekers and Templars to leave the Chantry in the beginning of the war. Ironically if Anders had waited he would most likely have gotten what he wanted or at least huge steps in the right direction. Too bad he decided to become a warmongering terrorist thus dooming the people he claims he wanted to save, and even then it was all for nothing since that didn't spark the war he wanted, instead that being a different issue a few years later. Varric stated the issues with mages started in the Champion's second year. Then later we find out from Cullen that those problems were there before he arrive. So, it took the Divine, 12-13 years to decide to do something about it? Please. The Divine could have stepped in sooner. When you see smoke you don't sit there and wait til a fire starts to do something about it. I would not go so far as to say Divine Justina was pro-mage, more understanding about the mages plight, but certainly was not waving a flag about it. The Templars rebelled because Divine Justina asked -politely- for the Templars to back-off the mages. The Templars got pissed because they felt, "Hey! We been doing this for thousands of years without another Divine saying shit, now one does? Fuck her!" You do realize that Kirkwall was a catalyst? The events in Val R. took place three years after the explosion of the Kirkwall Chantry. And those events, AKA the mini Conclave was Divine's way for trying to prevent a full scale war, even though she could have stepped in much sooner. Basically the Divine was trying to clean-up a mess she allowed to continue. And when the Templars decided to walk away, The Divine took the "side" of mages because she felt guilty. Not to mention Seeker Lambert did not help the situation at all. Ahh, I love when people call Anders a terrorist. Far easier to slap a label on someone or something without looking at all the evidence as to why that is an inaccurate classification to give. Why were at it, let us call Solas one too, oh and Lohgain. They both created an event based on their wants/fears in order to establish an outlook that benefits them and gives bullshit reasons for doing so. As davesin pointed out, Divine Justinia V became Divine in 9:34 so the same time so anything before or during Act 2 isn't her fault for not acting since she wasn't in power. And once she was in power, she started looking into issues. Remember this is medieval times so messages took weeks if not months to get from place to place. And then there are things like the fact it takes time to get all the facts down to make sure what you are doing is the best thing to do, as well as the situation changing due to a variety of factors like the actions of certain individuals. Terrorsism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence against individuals or property in an attempt to coerce or intimidate governments or societies to achieve political, religious or ideological objectives.How is this not what Anders did? He broke the law and detonated a bomb, thus using force or violence, against the Chantry and the people of Kirkwall, thus intimidating governments or societies, in order to achieve his ideological objective of mage freedom.
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Vive la révolution mages!
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Cantina on May 2, 2018 7:00:20 GMT
Varric stated the issues with mages started in the Champion's second year. Then later we find out from Cullen that those problems were there before he arrive. So, it took the Divine, 12-13 years to decide to do something about it? Please. The Divine could have stepped in sooner. When you see smoke you don't sit there and wait til a fire starts to do something about it. I would not go so far as to say Divine Justina was pro-mage, more understanding about the mages plight, but certainly was not waving a flag about it. The Templars rebelled because Divine Justina asked -politely- for the Templars to back-off the mages. The Templars got pissed because they felt, "Hey! We been doing this for thousands of years without another Divine saying shit, now one does? Fuck her!" You do realize that Kirkwall was a catalyst? The events in Val R. took place three years after the explosion of the Kirkwall Chantry. And those events, AKA the mini Conclave was Divine's way for trying to prevent a full scale war, even though she could have stepped in much sooner. Basically the Divine was trying to clean-up a mess she allowed to continue. And when the Templars decided to walk away, The Divine took the "side" of mages because she felt guilty. Not to mention Seeker Lambert did not help the situation at all. Ahh, I love when people call Anders a terrorist. Far easier to slap a label on someone or something without looking at all the evidence as to why that is an inaccurate classification to give. Why were at it, let us call Solas one too, oh and Lohgain. They both created an event based on their wants/fears in order to establish an outlook that benefits them and gives bullshit reasons for doing so. As davesin pointed out, Divine Justinia V became Divine in 9:34 so the same time so anything before or during Act 2 isn't her fault for not acting since she wasn't in power. And once she was in power, she started looking into issues. Remember this is medieval times so messages took weeks if not months to get from place to place. And then there are things like the fact it takes time to get all the facts down to make sure what you are doing is the best thing to do, as well as the situation changing due to a variety of factors like the actions of certain individuals. Terrorsism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence against individuals or property in an attempt to coerce or intimidate governments or societies to achieve political, religious or ideological objectives.How is this not what Anders did? He broke the law and detonated a bomb, thus using force or violence, against the Chantry and the people of Kirkwall, thus intimidating governments or societies, in order to achieve his ideological objective of mage freedom. Why thank you so much for relaying information I had no idea about. If it was not for kind people like you, my education would still be on the level of an idiot. Since I got me so much education, best get out of my parents basement and go get me a job. (scratches butt).
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Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 9:46:22 GMT
Varric stated the issues with mages started in the Champion's second year. Then later we find out from Cullen that those problems were there before he arrive. So, it took the Divine, 12-13 years to decide to do something about it?
Please. The Divine could have stepped in sooner. When you see smoke you don't sit there and wait til a fire starts to do something about it.
I would not go so far as to say Divine Justina was pro-mage, more understanding about the mages plight, but certainly was not waving a flag about it.
The Templars rebelled because Divine Justina asked -politely- for the Templars to back-off the mages. The Templars got pissed because they felt, "Hey! We been doing this for thousands of years without another Divine saying shit, now one does? Fuck her!"
You do realize that Kirkwall was a catalyst? The events in Val R. took place three years after the explosion of the Kirkwall Chantry. And those events, AKA the mini Conclave was Divine's way for trying to prevent a full scale war, even though she could have stepped in much sooner. Basically the Divine was trying to clean-up a mess she allowed to continue. And when the Templars decided to walk away, The Divine took the "side" of mages because she felt guilty. Not to mention Seeker Lambert did not help the situation at all.
Ahh, I love when people call Anders a terrorist. Far easier to slap a label on someone or something without looking at all the evidence as to why that is an inaccurate classification to give.
Why were at it, let us call Solas one too, oh and Lohgain. They both created an event based on their wants/fears in order to establish an outlook that benefits them and gives bullshit reasons for doing so. As davesin pointed out, Divine Justinia V became Divine in 9:34 so the same time so anything before or during Act 2 isn't her fault for not acting since she wasn't in power. And once she was in power, she started looking into issues. Remember this is medieval times so messages took weeks if not months to get from place to place. And then there are things like the fact it takes time to get all the facts down to make sure what you are doing is the best thing to do, as well as the situation changing due to a variety of factors like the actions of certain individuals. Terrorsism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence against individuals or property in an attempt to coerce or intimidate governments or societies to achieve political, religious or ideological objectives.How is this not what Anders did? He broke the law and detonated a bomb, thus using force or violence, against the Chantry and the people of Kirkwall, thus intimidating governments or societies, in order to achieve his ideological objective of mage freedom. I love the word: unlawful... it's beautiful!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 2, 2018 18:26:18 GMT
As davesin pointed out, Divine Justinia V became Divine in 9:34 so the same time so anything before or during Act 2 isn't her fault for not acting since she wasn't in power. And once she was in power, she started looking into issues. Remember this is medieval times so messages took weeks if not months to get from place to place. And then there are things like the fact it takes time to get all the facts down to make sure what you are doing is the best thing to do, as well as the situation changing due to a variety of factors like the actions of certain individuals. Terrorsism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence against individuals or property in an attempt to coerce or intimidate governments or societies to achieve political, religious or ideological objectives.How is this not what Anders did? He broke the law and detonated a bomb, thus using force or violence, against the Chantry and the people of Kirkwall, thus intimidating governments or societies, in order to achieve his ideological objective of mage freedom. I love the word: unlawful... it's beautiful!
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Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 18:27:21 GMT
I love the word: unlawful... it's beautiful! An unjust law isn't law.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 2, 2018 18:33:26 GMT
Yes it is law. I agree that a law can be unjust and that those laws should be changed or eliminated, but that doesn't negate it being a law. To use a real world comparison, laws that discriminated against people based on things like their race, sex, orientation, religion, etc. are unjust laws but unfortunately they were still the law.
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