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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2016 16:52:23 GMT
I may have already answered in this forum on this topic. I play through games i like multiple times so i always chose a variety of sides to play on but by far an wide I side with the templars and meredith more often than the other way around. And I'm sure that I have repeatedly mentioned, but never understood the logic, why sided anyone with Meredith, if not because they want to see an another end of game (or perhaps because of Templar Carver, at the finish).
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Post by Beerfish on Sept 21, 2016 16:58:26 GMT
I may have already answered in this forum on this topic. I play through games i like multiple times so i always chose a variety of sides to play on but by far an wide I side with the templars and meredith more often than the other way around. And I'm sure that I have repeatedly mentioned, but never understood the logic, why sided anyone with Meredith, if not because they want to see an another end of game (or perhaps because of Templar Carver, at the finish). I've stated my case many times. There was ample evidence of huge mage problem sin and around Kirkwall. Starkhaven mage rebellion, blood mages and abominations up the ying yang, the mage leader in Orsino that at the least was standing in the way of the templars doing their job and at worst as we saw was a blood mage who consorted with a serial killing mage. If anything the Chantry leader caused her own doom by not letting Meredith do her job and thus the whole Anders thing. Meredith was a crazed (after the red lyrium thing) emotionally scared individual of that there is no doubt. There is equally no doubt that the mage situation in kirkwall was a powder keg, in large part caused by many mages themselves. Meredith was doing her job.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2016 17:24:19 GMT
And I'm sure that I have repeatedly mentioned, but never understood the logic, why sided anyone with Meredith, if not because they want to see an another end of game (or perhaps because of Templar Carver, at the finish). I've stated my case many times. There was ample evidence of huge mage problem sin and around Kirkwall. Starkhaven mage rebellion, blood mages and abominations up the ying yang, the mage leader in Orsino that at the least was standing in the way of the templars doing their job and at worst as we saw was a blood mage who consorted with a serial killing mage. If anything the Chantry leader caused her own doom by not letting Meredith do her job and thus the whole Anders thing. Meredith was a crazed (after the red lyrium thing) emotionally scared individual of that there is no doubt. There is equally no doubt that the mage situation in kirkwall was a powder keg, in large part caused by many mages themselves. Meredith was doing her job. What Anders did, not the Circle mages did. You know nothing about Orsino's blood magic and necromancer studies. This serial killer was not the part of the Circle. The Templars did not their job, Hawke did their job. The Templars in Kirkwall did: tranquilized Karl (and Maddox), abused the poor mages in the Circle, and stopped Emeric, who was perhaps the one non-impotent Templar in whole Kirkwall. And... Meredith was paranoid. (The mage rebellion is a good thing.)
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Post by Beerfish on Sept 21, 2016 17:35:06 GMT
I've stated my case many times. There was ample evidence of huge mage problem sin and around Kirkwall. Starkhaven mage rebellion, blood mages and abominations up the ying yang, the mage leader in Orsino that at the least was standing in the way of the templars doing their job and at worst as we saw was a blood mage who consorted with a serial killing mage. If anything the Chantry leader caused her own doom by not letting Meredith do her job and thus the whole Anders thing. Meredith was a crazed (after the red lyrium thing) emotionally scared individual of that there is no doubt. There is equally no doubt that the mage situation in kirkwall was a powder keg, in large part caused by many mages themselves. Meredith was doing her job. What Anders did, not the Circle mages did. You know nothing about Orsino's blood magic and necromancer studies. This serial killer was not the part of the Circle. The Templars did not their job, Hawke did their job. The Templars in Kirkwall did: tranquilized Karl (and Maddox), abused the poor mages in the Circle, and stopped Emeric, who was perhaps the one non-impotent Templar in whole Kirkwall. And... Meredith was paranoid. (The mage rebellion is a good thing.) I believe I've been part of these type of discussions with you a number of times in the past, you always down play any and all misbehavior by the mages and up play and misdeeds real or perceived by the templars/chantry. There will be no resolution on the topic. I'm totally comfortable with how i stand on the whole mage templar thing because I try and view it as much through the eyes of the common man as from one side or the other.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2016 18:01:36 GMT
What Anders did, not the Circle mages did. You know nothing about Orsino's blood magic and necromancer studies. This serial killer was not the part of the Circle. The Templars did not their job, Hawke did their job. The Templars in Kirkwall did: tranquilized Karl (and Maddox), abused the poor mages in the Circle, and stopped Emeric, who was perhaps the one non-impotent Templar in whole Kirkwall. And... Meredith was paranoid. (The mage rebellion is a good thing.) I believe I've been part of these type of discussions with you a number of times in the past, you always down play any and all misbehavior by the mages and up play and misdeeds real or perceived by the templars/chantry. There will be no resolution on the topic. I'm totally comfortable with how i stand on the whole mage templar thing because I try and view it as much through the eyes of the common man as from one side or the other. This is not a simple vote, so the reasons are important, because to see a number of opinions.
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Oct 6, 2016 2:44:53 GMT
First time, I sided with the Templars. I didn't exactly MEAN to, but poor Hawke was trying to protect her city and keep the peace. When Anders kersploded that (just when she'd finally almost talked everyone down from crazytown; thanks Anders) and her hand was forced, she went with trying to keep the status quo. In theory, that felt safest for the people of Kirkwall as a whole. There's more citizens of Kirkwall than just the angry lyrium snorting armored guys and the angry lyrium snorting fireball shooters. Helped that Sebastian forced the issue there.
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Post by lordofwar on Oct 6, 2016 9:33:29 GMT
First time, I sided with the Templars. I didn't exactly MEAN to, but poor Hawke was trying to protect her city and keep the peace. When Anders kersploded that (just when she'd finally almost talked everyone down from crazytown; thanks Anders) and her hand was forced, she went with trying to keep the status quo. In theory, that felt safest for the people of Kirkwall as a whole. There's more citizens of Kirkwall than just the angry lyrium snorting armored guys and the angry lyrium snorting fireball shooters. Helped that Sebastian forced the issue there. Meredith's junta continuing to rule Kirkwall is only good for ranking Templars (and Chantry officials). Kirkwall's status quo is the oppressive rule of a fanatical military elite that have no qualms about murdering dissenters, mage or not, and literally employ death squads to that end. Every Templar officer in Kirkwall is culpable for this.
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Post by phoray on Oct 6, 2016 13:22:33 GMT
I've only ever had Mage Bethany and Warden Carver. As a mage siding mage with a Templar Carver, do you have to kill Carver? Because if that's the only way it can play out, then Templar Carver will happen exactly once for me. I love Carver more than Bethany, and I've given her two shots to make me feel even half the sibling love I've felt for Carver. Maybe the problem is I haven't played DLCs with her... Anyway, I RPed a mage Hawke that made an emotional decision in a very emotional moment that she horribly regretted forever. ( I love you Atonement Hawke!) I also intend to RP siding with Meredith as a barely tolerant of mages, less than them type Hawke. He will not bother bringing Anders or Merril anywhere, just Bethany at the start, and then she will become a Warden. Then Anders blows up the Chantry, it's the straw that broke the camels back. Kirkwall has a pest problem; it's mages. As a person of Earth, any chance Meredith had of actually siding with her was blown out the window when she didn't lock Anders up and have him hanged publicly for his deed....and instead, ignored him, so she could go follow her personal vendetta of annulling the Circle. The Circle had done a lot, in a way, but it didn't do THAT.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 13:27:16 GMT
I've only ever had Mage Bethany and Warden Carver. As a mage siding mage with a Templar Carver, do you have to kill Carver? Because if that's the only way it can play out, then Templar Carver will happen exactly once for me. I love Carver more than Bethany, and I've given her two shots to make me feel even half the sister love I've felt for Carver. Maybe the problem is I haven't played DLCs with her... Anyway, I RPed a mage Hawke that made an emotional decision in a very emotional moment that she horribly regretted forever. I also intend to RP siding with Meredith as a barely tolerant of mages, less than them type Hawke. He will not bother bringing Anders or Merril anywhere, just Bethany at the start, and then she will become a Warden. Then Anders blows up the Chantry, it's the straw that broke the camels back. Kirkwall has a pest problem; it's mages. Don't need to kill Carver. At the end Carver will fight on your side, just as Cullen. Carver is a very good brother, he said, he dont want to betray his family. He never be able for it, no matter, he is Templar or not. And this is, why I like so much the Templar Carver.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 13:34:03 GMT
I've only ever had Mage Bethany and Warden Carver. As a mage siding mage with a Templar Carver, do you have to kill Carver? Because if that's the only way it can play out, then Templar Carver will happen exactly once for me. I love Carver more than Bethany, and I've given her two shots to make me feel even half the sister love I've felt for Carver. Maybe the problem is I haven't played DLCs with her... Anyway, I RPed a mage Hawke that made an emotional decision in a very emotional moment that she horribly regretted forever. I also intend to RP siding with Meredith as a barely tolerant of mages, less than them type Hawke. He will not bother bringing Anders or Merril anywhere, just Bethany at the start, and then she will become a Warden. Then Anders blows up the Chantry, it's the straw that broke the camels back. Kirkwall has a pest problem; it's mages. Don't need to kill Carver. At the end Carver will on your side, just as Cullen. Carver is a very good brother, he said, he dont want to betray his family. He never be able for it, no matter, he is Templar or not. And this is, why I like so much the Templar Carver. Warden Carver is better. I shall forever and always make Carver a warden... he's nothing but a warden in my mind.. And I really love Carver, I got a friendship character with him once and it was so worth it. Chill Carver..
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 13:42:42 GMT
Don't need to kill Carver. At the end Carver will on your side, just as Cullen. Carver is a very good brother, he said, he dont want to betray his family. He never be able for it, no matter, he is Templar or not. And this is, why I like so much the Templar Carver. Warden Carver is better. I shall forever and always make Carver a warden... he's nothing but a warden in my mind.. And I really love Carver, I got a friendship character with him once and it was so worth it. Chill Carver.. I dont think, Warden Carver is better... or Templar Carver is better, I just like Carver. Yes, he may happier if he become Warden (true, he blame Hawke for it – I like this scene...), but he have reasons for became Templar, and Hawke also have reason to leave Carver at home. So: we can agree that live Carver much better, than dead Carver.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 13:46:02 GMT
Warden Carver is better. I shall forever and always make Carver a warden... he's nothing but a warden in my mind.. And I really love Carver, I got a friendship character with him once and it was so worth it. Chill Carver.. I dont think, Warden Carver is better... or Templar Carver is better, I just like Carver. Yes, he may happier if he bacome Warden (true, he blame Hawke for it – I like this scene...), but he have reasons for became Templar, and Hawke also have reason to leave Carver at home. So: we can agree that live Carver much better, than dead Carver. I like a happy Carver, lol.
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Post by phoray on Oct 6, 2016 14:09:40 GMT
I really love Carver, I got a friendship character with him once and it was so worth it. Oh my gosh! Same story! Second play through, I was shooting for very specific friend/rival outcomes and I had read that it was like IMPOSSIBLE to friendship Carver. And I was like, CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. And then fell in love with my little warden brother so hard by the end of Legacy it was crazy. And that game, I was mage Hawke siding with Templars because reasons...and the shame I felt when Warden came back to Kirkwall "to help me" and asked in such a tone, " why are you killing your own people?" The shame the shame! And only possible because I cared about his opinion so much.
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Oct 6, 2016 16:46:23 GMT
First time, I sided with the Templars. I didn't exactly MEAN to, but poor Hawke was trying to protect her city and keep the peace. When Anders kersploded that (just when she'd finally almost talked everyone down from crazytown; thanks Anders) and her hand was forced, she went with trying to keep the status quo. In theory, that felt safest for the people of Kirkwall as a whole. There's more citizens of Kirkwall than just the angry lyrium snorting armored guys and the angry lyrium snorting fireball shooters. Helped that Sebastian forced the issue there. Meredith's junta continuing to rule Kirkwall is only good for ranking Templars (and Chantry officials). Kirkwall's status quo is the oppressive rule of a fanatical military elite that have no qualms about murdering dissenters, mage or not, and literally employ death squads to that end. Every Templar officer in Kirkwall is culpable for this. War in the streets between a group of people who make fire with their minds and have an unfortunate tendency to set loose demons when they're scared and a bunch of fanatics is worse than a dictatorship. Especially since Thedas is pretty much autocratic to begin with.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 16:57:35 GMT
Meredith's junta continuing to rule Kirkwall is only good for ranking Templars (and Chantry officials). Kirkwall's status quo is the oppressive rule of a fanatical military elite that have no qualms about murdering dissenters, mage or not, and literally employ death squads to that end. Every Templar officer in Kirkwall is culpable for this. War in the streets between a group of people who make fire with their minds and have an unfortunate tendency to set loose demons when they're scared and a bunch of fanatics is worse than a dictatorship. Especially since Thedas is pretty much autocratic to begin with. But not surprising, if they are trying to oppress this power. And war on the street? Terrible! But this often happen in the dictatorship...
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 17:00:49 GMT
I really love Carver, I got a friendship character with him once and it was so worth it. Oh my gosh! Same story! Second play through, I was shooting for very specific friend/rival outcomes and I had read that it was like IMPOSSIBLE to friendship Carver. And I was like, CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. And then fell in love with my little warden brother so hard by the end of Legacy it was crazy. And that game, I was mage Hawke siding with Templars because reasons...and the shame I felt when Warden came back to Kirkwall "to help me" and asked in such a tone, " why are you killing your own people?" The shame the shame! And only possible because I cared about his opinion so much.This is why Hawke don't need to care about Carver's opinion (Because Carver seems not sure what's his opinion...)
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 17:20:06 GMT
Meredith's junta continuing to rule Kirkwall is only good for ranking Templars (and Chantry officials). Kirkwall's status quo is the oppressive rule of a fanatical military elite that have no qualms about murdering dissenters, mage or not, and literally employ death squads to that end. Every Templar officer in Kirkwall is culpable for this. War in the streets between a group of people who make fire with their minds and have an unfortunate tendency to set loose demons when they're scared and a bunch of fanatics is worse than a dictatorship. Especially since Thedas is pretty much autocratic to begin with. Did you forget how the war in the streets only happened because Meredith decided to murder all the mages? Do you really think there would be abominations and demons running rampant if Meredith didn't decide to do the annulment?
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Post by lordofwar on Oct 6, 2016 17:25:08 GMT
War in the streets between a group of people who make fire with their minds and have an unfortunate tendency to set loose demons when they're scared and a bunch of fanatics is worse than a dictatorship. Especially since Thedas is pretty much autocratic to begin with. Did you forget how the war in the streets only happened because Meredith decided to murder all the mages? Do you really think there would be abominations and demons running rampant if Meredith didn't decide to do the annulment? Exactly. Meredith's inept and heavy-handed handling of every situation put before her guarantees more strife down the line. She needs to go, and if she and some of most her hardcore supporters die during the chaos, well, all the better for Kirkwall. The mage rising is chance for a political reset that is desperately needed.
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Post by bear43 on Oct 6, 2016 19:43:26 GMT
In everything going on in Kirkwall both parties are to blame. Both sides are awful and bear blame for the situation Kirkwall is in. In both cases there are very few redeeming qualities for either side.
However, I side with the Templars every single time. Why? Well, you are playing as the Champion of Kirkwall, not the Champion of The Circle. You are supposed to restore order and safety to the city. That is the duty placed before you. At that moment the mages are the largest immediate threat to the city. So, they are dealt with in order to restore order. Yes, we can debate all about it for another hundred pages using all the same arguments. The original question was the reasoning behind the decision and that is mine. Not perfect, but that's it.
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Post by phoray on Oct 6, 2016 19:53:14 GMT
In everything going on in Kirkwall both parties are to blame. Both sides are awful and bear blame for the situation Kirkwall is in. In both cases there are very few redeeming qualities for either side. However, I side with the Templars every single time. Why? Well, you are playing as the Champion of Kirkwall, not the Champion of The Circle. You are supposed to restore order and safety to the city. That is the duty placed before you. At that moment the mages are the largest immediate threat to the city. So, they are dealt with in order to restore order. Yes, we can debate all about it for another hundred pages using all the same arguments. The original question was the reasoning behind the decision and that is mine. Not perfect, but that's it. My Hawkes never agreed to being Champion. They just started calling him/her that. Nothing was made official, no key to the city was given, no payment sent his/her way. Therefore, no "responsibility" towards anything but what s/he thought was right. Morally, or selfishly. Edit Add: My Hawke wanted to protect their family. That was a failure. If I could have, I would have just simply left Kirkwall entirely to explode. I owed nothing to that city, I just landed there 10 years ago.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 19:57:02 GMT
In everything going on in Kirkwall both parties are to blame. Both sides are awful and bear blame for the situation Kirkwall is in. In both cases there are very few redeeming qualities for either side. However, I side with the Templars every single time. Why? Well, you are playing as the Champion of Kirkwall, not the Champion of The Circle. You are supposed to restore order and safety to the city. That is the duty placed before you. At that moment the mages are the largest immediate threat to the city. So, they are dealt with in order to restore order. Yes, we can debate all about it for another hundred pages using all the same arguments. The original question was the reasoning behind the decision and that is mine. Not perfect, but that's it. Hawke got this title for the save the city from the qunari. S/He not asked for it. Kirkwall's biggest problem is Meredith. Aveline's biggest problem also Meredith... (This was clear from the Act2, in Act1 just was a feeling.) So: if Hawke take seriously, that his/her title is a duty, then he simple must to eliminate the Meredith-problem. (And of course: Hawke not Champion of Circle)
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Post by lordofwar on Oct 6, 2016 19:59:33 GMT
In everything going on in Kirkwall both parties are to blame. Both sides are awful and bear blame for the situation Kirkwall is in. In both cases there are very few redeeming qualities for either side. This argument is ludicrous. The Templars' heavy-handed tactics and Meredith's dictatorial rule of the city are indefensible, and in nearly every case of magical 'corruption' we see, the mages were only pushed that far by Templar abuse. The Templars have all the power, they rule the city, and so, the situation in Kirkwall is their fault. Waiting around or helping the jackboots slaughter innocent people and further cement Meredith's paranoid despotism is wrong, full stop, and only leaves the people of Kirkwall and their future in the hands of a madwoman.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 20:09:20 GMT
Just a question to the Meredith supporters:
If Meredith decided to kill all Fereldens after the Chantry explosion with the reasoning that since someone from Ferelden blew up the Chantry, the people will demand blood and thus all Fereldans in Kirkwall are to be executed, do you still think she's justified?
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Post by bear43 on Oct 6, 2016 20:32:19 GMT
Phoray: I feel that is a big flaw in DA2. Whether you want to be or not you are the Champion. No matter what you choose Hawke is still forced into that role for Act 3.
Catalina: I fully agree that Meredith is a danger to Kirkwall but the way I worded my post is important. I feel the mages are the larger immediate threat. I always feel that if the end had not happened the way it did that Meredith and much of the leadership of the Templars would still have to be dealt with later, but at that very moment the mages were the larger threat.
lordofwar: The Circle actively fomented rebellion at every turn so that had a hand in making things worse. The problems in Kirkwall came from both sides ramping things up to an intolerable level. As I have said before, this is how I see it but go ahead and disparage me just because I have different thoughts. Heaven forbid anyone think differently.
thesupremedarkone: That is something that was never brought into the game but if that had been the choice then I don't know. Honestly, that would make for an interesting thing. The fact that Anders is a mage overrules everything else but what if it had been a Ferelden refugee who wasn't a mage? If that was the issue then more than likely Hawke would be straight up fighting the Templars anyway instead of being able to choose.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 20:37:49 GMT
Phoray: I feel that is a big flaw in DA2. Whether you want to be or not you are the Champion. No matter what you choose Hawke is still forced into that role for Act 3. Catalina: I fully agree that Meredith is a danger to Kirkwall but the way I worded my post is important. I feel the mages are the larger immediate threat. I always feel that if the end had not happened the way it did that Meredith and much of the leadership of the Templars would still have to be dealt with later, but at that very moment the mages were the larger threat. lordofwar: The Circle actively fomented rebellion at every turn so that had a hand in making things worse. The problems in Kirkwall came from both sides ramping things up to an intolerable level. As I have said before, this is how I see it but go ahead and disparage me just because I have different thoughts. Heaven forbid anyone think differently. thesupremedarkone: That is something that was never brought into the game but if that had been the choice then I don't know. Honestly, that would make for an interesting thing. The fact that Anders is a mage overrules everything else but what if it had been a Ferelden refugee who wasn't a mage? If that was the issue then more than likely Hawke would be straight up fighting the Templars anyway instead of being able to choose.The mages in Kirkwall Circle only dangerous, because of Meredith. So: the most urgent threat is Meredith. The oppressed people thinking on a rebellion? What a surprise! So: You supported Meredith, because ANDERS blew up the Chantry? This is so logic...
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