Toyish Batphone
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 7, 2016 12:33:42 GMT
For all its faults, Dragon Age 2 is an excellent game at demonstrating why opening up a city / state to refugees (not just Ferelden refugees, but Qunari shipwrecked ones too) without stringent vetting process is a really bad idea. Dragon Age 2 - Proving Donald Trump has the right idea when it comes to immigration and refugees. Kirkwall should have built a yuge wall and made both Ferelden and the Qun pay for it. They should have also only allowed immigrants to come in LEGALLY. Anders would not have been an issue if Kirkwall vetted its refugees and visitors properly and said - Mage abominatons are not allowed in Kirkwall, OUT. (Long live Donald Trump, who protects the States of the Refugees' against the refugees! And: You forget the nazis and terrorists! Please you don't forget in the next time!) Nazis and terrorists ? Typical regressive leftist response. Also, USA was not colonized by refugees, they were not driven out of the UK by conflict. I know that and I am not an American (I am a Malaysian Indian). If you are referring to the European refugees that came during events like the Potato Blights or the Holocaust, their values were not antagonistic to that of the host population, unlike the Middle Eastern and African Muslim refugees and migrants. Truly, almost all the issues faced by Kirkwall such as the Qunari war or Anders blowing up the Chantry would not have happened had Kirkwall's rulers practiced strong border control policies and stringent vetting process. Any sensible nation, or in this case a city-state, would not have opened its doors willingly to mage abominations and to soldiers of a foreign nation / culture that is antagonistic to the host's way of life. Then again, Viscount Dumar is pretty much the Angela Merkel of Kirkwall so the resulting series of messes is par for the course really.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2016 12:42:36 GMT
(Long live Donald Trump, who protects the States of the Refugees' against the refugees! And: You forget the nazis and terrorists! Please you don't forget in the next time!) Nazis and terrorists ? Typical regressive leftist response.
[...] I mean: this is not the real world, and not the political topic. (You don't know my political resolution) (Nazis and terrorists often pop in the Meredith or Anders threads. Now popped Donald Trump...Hilarious.)
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Toyish Batphone
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
Posts: 293 Likes: 437
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 7, 2016 12:45:07 GMT
Nazis and terrorists ? Typical regressive leftist response.
[...] I mean: this is not the real world, and not the political topic. Okay. Still,you cannot deny that strong border control and strict immigration policies would have saved Kirkwall from a lot of trouble. That is a fact.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2016 12:54:04 GMT
I mean: this is not the real world, and not the political topic. Okay. Still,you cannot deny that strong border control and strict immigration policies would have saved Kirkwall from a lot of trouble. That is a fact. Okay, you know/imagine how possible to prevents the Kirkwalls problems. But. The. Problems. Already. Exist. That is the fact.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 7, 2016 12:57:03 GMT
I mean: this is not the real world, and not the political topic. Okay. Still,you cannot deny that strong border control and strict immigration policies would have saved Kirkwall from a lot of trouble. That is a fact. I don't know. The Qunari would have been able to push in and do what they did regardless of how we handled them before. Maybe not as much damage, but still extensive. As for Anders, he is a Grey Warden so would be able to get in regardless of what policies are in place.
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Post by phoray on Oct 7, 2016 14:12:20 GMT
I thought Trump being brought up was a joke.
Also the topic is "what kind if Character sides with Meredith" or why you side with her. At the end if the game. Where prevention is far too late.
If we're seriously going to have border policy debates then I shall leave the topic because that shit ain't funny.
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thesupremedarkone
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I have returned to grace this forum with my presence
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 7, 2016 17:22:03 GMT
I thought Trump being brought up was a joke. Also the topic is "what kind if Character sides with Meredith" or why you side with her. At the end if the game. Where prevention is far too late. If we're seriously going to have border policy debates then I shall leave the topic because that shit ain't funny. Somehow I'm not surprised Bayonet is a trump supporter. Also, what the hell does Trump have to do with Meredith or DA2
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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2016 19:49:41 GMT
(Long live Donald Trump, who protects the States of the Refugees' against the refugees! And: You forget the nazis and terrorists! Please you don't forget in the next time!) [...] Truly, almost all the issues faced by Kirkwall such as the Qunari war or Anders blowing up the Chantry would not have happened had Kirkwall's rulers practiced strong border control policies and stringent vetting process. Any sensible nation, or in this case a city-state, would not have opened its doors willingly to mage abominations and to soldiers of a foreign nation / culture that is antagonistic to the host's way of life. Then again, Viscount Dumar is pretty much the Angela Merkel of Kirkwall so the resulting series of messes is par for the course really. [...] Viscount Dumar was Meredith's puppet, not "Angela Merkel" Oh, my! Bullshit. Ferelden have similar culture and religion, than Kirkwall. The Arishok would go away from Kirkwall in peace, if Isabela don't stole the Koslun, and Petrice Chantry-sister and some Templars and fanatic citizens wouldn't attack qunari people. Anders don't hate Kirkwall, and Anders is Andrastian. Anders blew up the Chantry, not because he is refugee/foreign or he hate Kirkwall, or hate the Chantry, Anders blew up the Chantry because of Meredith's cruelty and Elthina's willful blindness. None of this were committed by "refugees". Anders and Isabela was not refugee, Hawke and his family also was not real refugee, because they are Amells (officially, because they have testament), you know, don't you? So: the Chantry and the Templars were the Kirkwall's battles' causes. (No, Anders was not innocent, if you want to mention.)
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Post by phoray on Oct 7, 2016 20:04:36 GMT
At what point do you stop being a refugee? I mean, they've all lived there 10 years at this point. And I'm not sure there is formal citzenship, although there are formal channels to being recognized as nobility. But I think any schmo who lives in a place is an auto-citizen who must comply under local laws.
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Post by eireicon on Sept 5, 2017 14:06:08 GMT
I think what the Dragon Age series does exceptionally well is present a problem without a clear cut or fair solution. The Circle system is indeed unfair to mages, it limits their freedom and forces itself upon them, however mages left unchecked present a clear and significant threat to the general public. Demons and the use of blood magic is a constant temptation to Mages, whilst many will not succumb to it, some will, and this in turn spreads like a virus. I found the question for my Hawke was not whether he agreed with Orisino and Meredith but whether he believed in the Circle system.
The circle system is an imperfect solution to a complicated problem. Both Meredith and Orisino have not done their jobs, they’re supposed to work together but their relationship has completely broken down. For Hawke I think the question is whether he believes in that system. The right of annulment is a horrible solution to a very real problem. We saw in DAO how quickly a tower can spiral out of control when infiltrated by blood magic. The Kirkwall circle has been infiltrated by blood magic, we have seen this throughout the game. For my Hawke it was never a question of “Is Meredith right or is Orisino right?”……….because they are both wrong to varying degrees. It’s more a question of whether he/she believes in the circle system, and in the threat posed by the Mages. And for me that very much depends on who my Hawke is and how he/she has been affected by their time in Kirkwall.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 5, 2017 14:23:59 GMT
I think what the Dragon Age series does exceptionally well is present a problem without a clear cut or fair solution. The Circle system is indeed unfair to mages, it limits their freedom and forces itself upon them, however mages left unchecked present a clear and significant threat to the general public. Demons and the use of blood magic is a constant temptation to Mages, whilst many will not succumb to it, some will, and this in turn spreads like a virus. I found the question for my Hawke was not whether he agreed with Orisino and Meredith but whether he believed in the Circle system. The circle system is an imperfect solution to a complicated problem. Both Meredith and Orisino have not done their jobs, they’re supposed to work together but their relationship has completely broken down. For Hawke I think the question is whether he believes in that system. The right of annulment is a horrible solution to a very real problem. We saw in DAO how quickly a tower can spiral out of control when infiltrated by blood magic. The Kirkwall circle has been infiltrated by blood magic, we have seen this throughout the game. For my Hawke it was never a question of “Is Meredith right or is Orisino right?”……….because they are both wrong to varying degrees. It’s more a question of whether he/she believes in the circle system, and in the threat posed by the Mages. And for me that very much depends on who my Hawke is and how he/she has been affected by their time in Kirkwall. No. The Circle-system is inherently evil in this form. There's no question. You can't compare Orsino with Meredith. Orsino's a property of the Chantry, Meredith a guard of the properties. You can't blame a property! Orsino as a property doesn't belong loyalty to the Templars, only to their own fellows. Meredith, as responsible officer belong loyalty to the Templars, to the Chantry and to people of Kirkwall. And her duty is to protect the Chantry properties, and not ruin them... So: Meredith's unacceptable, Orsino's acceptable. Meredith's evil, Orsino only naive.
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Post by tacsear on Sept 5, 2017 14:27:46 GMT
I think what the Dragon Age series does exceptionally well is present a problem without a clear cut or fair solution. The Circle system is indeed unfair to mages, it limits their freedom and forces itself upon them, however mages left unchecked present a clear and significant threat to the general public. Demons and the use of blood magic is a constant temptation to Mages, whilst many will not succumb to it, some will, and this in turn spreads like a virus. I found the question for my Hawke was not whether he agreed with Orisino and Meredith but whether he believed in the Circle system. The circle system is an imperfect solution to a complicated problem. Both Meredith and Orisino have not done their jobs, they’re supposed to work together but their relationship has completely broken down. For Hawke I think the question is whether he believes in that system. The right of annulment is a horrible solution to a very real problem. We saw in DAO how quickly a tower can spiral out of control when infiltrated by blood magic. The Kirkwall circle has been infiltrated by blood magic, we have seen this throughout the game. For my Hawke it was never a question of “Is Meredith right or is Orisino right?”……….because they are both wrong to varying degrees. It’s more a question of whether he/she believes in the circle system, and in the threat posed by the Mages. And for me that very much depends on who my Hawke is and how he/she has been affected by their time in Kirkwall. Yes that gray morality is one of the things that made me love the series
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Post by Catilina on Sept 5, 2017 14:31:42 GMT
I think what the Dragon Age series does exceptionally well is present a problem without a clear cut or fair solution. The Circle system is indeed unfair to mages, it limits their freedom and forces itself upon them, however mages left unchecked present a clear and significant threat to the general public. Demons and the use of blood magic is a constant temptation to Mages, whilst many will not succumb to it, some will, and this in turn spreads like a virus. I found the question for my Hawke was not whether he agreed with Orisino and Meredith but whether he believed in the Circle system. The circle system is an imperfect solution to a complicated problem. Both Meredith and Orisino have not done their jobs, they’re supposed to work together but their relationship has completely broken down. For Hawke I think the question is whether he believes in that system. The right of annulment is a horrible solution to a very real problem. We saw in DAO how quickly a tower can spiral out of control when infiltrated by blood magic. The Kirkwall circle has been infiltrated by blood magic, we have seen this throughout the game. For my Hawke it was never a question of “Is Meredith right or is Orisino right?”……….because they are both wrong to varying degrees. It’s more a question of whether he/she believes in the circle system, and in the threat posed by the Mages. And for me that very much depends on who my Hawke is and how he/she has been affected by their time in Kirkwall. Yes that gray morality is one of the things that made me love the series Oh, yes, the slavery is gray.
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Post by tacsear on Sept 5, 2017 14:33:15 GMT
Yes that gray morality is one of the things that made me love the series Oh, yes, the slavery is gray. Oh ffs really? Slaves do not pose a threat to innocent people we have been over this
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Post by eireicon on Sept 5, 2017 14:41:51 GMT
. No. The Circle-system is inherently evil in this form. There's no question. You can't compare Orsino with Meredith. Orsino's a property of the Chantry, Meredith a guard of the properties. You can't blame a property! Orsino as a property doesn't belong loyalty to the Templars, only to their own fellows. Meredith, as responsible officer belong loyalty to the Templars, to the Chantry and to people of Kirkwall. And her duty is to protect the Chantry properties, and not ruin them... So: Meredith's unacceptable, Orsino's acceptable. Meredith's evil, Orsino only naive. I disagree it is not inherently evil, it is however inherently unfair. The purpose of the circle is to teach people how to use their magic and protect them against the threat it poses to the Mage and those around them. That is not inherently evil. That is not to say it can't be abused. You put anyone in a position of power and there is always the risk of abuse.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 5, 2017 15:06:05 GMT
. No. The Circle-system is inherently evil in this form. There's no question. You can't compare Orsino with Meredith. Orsino's a property of the Chantry, Meredith a guard of the properties. You can't blame a property! Orsino as a property doesn't belong loyalty to the Templars, only to their own fellows. Meredith, as responsible officer belong loyalty to the Templars, to the Chantry and to people of Kirkwall. And her duty is to protect the Chantry properties, and not ruin them... So: Meredith's unacceptable, Orsino's acceptable. Meredith's evil, Orsino only naive. I disagree it is not inherently evil, it is however inherently unfair. The purpose of the circle is to teach people how to use their magic and protect them against the threat it poses to the Mage and those around them. That is not inherently evil. That is not to say it can't be abused. You put anyone in a position of power and there is always the risk of abuse. No, they are prisons for innocents. When my warden wanted to left, a templar said, that he shouldn't let him. If they would be schools, that would be nice. In this form, the system is clearly evil. The mages are properties, the mages' children is a property.
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boxofscreaming
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 943 Likes: 1,658
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Post by boxofscreaming on Sept 5, 2017 16:41:59 GMT
I can understand, from a role playing point of view, how many possible characters from Thedas might side with the Templars. They've been brought up to believe they are holy and represent the Maker's will. I have a harder time seeing how Hawke could side with them, however, being, at the very least, the child and sibling of apostate mages.
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Post by tacsear on Sept 5, 2017 18:25:36 GMT
If you make Bethany a Warden you can side with her without big moral restraints. Or if you want to sleep with Meredith, because you know she is kinda hot
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Post by Catilina on Sept 5, 2017 18:39:51 GMT
If you make Bethany a Warden you can side with her without big moral restraints. Or if you want to sleep with Meredith, because you know she is kinda hot A potential reason is if Hawke doesn't want to fight against Carver, if Carver is a Templar. Or Hawke's an idiot, and think, that if s/he supports Meredith, she will nice to Bethany. And want to protect Meredith against her will.
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Post by tacsear on Sept 5, 2017 19:19:55 GMT
If you make Bethany a Warden you can side with her without big moral restraints. Or if you want to sleep with Meredith, because you know she is kinda hot A potential reason is if Hawke doesn't want to fight against Carver, if Carver is a Templar. Or Hawke's an idiot, and think, that if s/he supports Meredith, she will nice to Bethany. And want to protect Meredith against her will. I really can't see mage Hawke doing that. If Hawke was a type of mage who would fight with Templars s/he would've surrendered to the Circle in Act1
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Post by Catilina on Sept 5, 2017 19:24:22 GMT
I think what the Dragon Age series does exceptionally well is present a problem without a clear cut or fair solution. The Circle system is indeed unfair to mages, it limits their freedom and forces itself upon them, however mages left unchecked present a clear and significant threat to the general public. Demons and the use of blood magic is a constant temptation to Mages, whilst many will not succumb to it, some will, and this in turn spreads like a virus. I found the question for my Hawke was not whether he agreed with Orisino and Meredith but whether he believed in the Circle system. The circle system is an imperfect solution to a complicated problem. Both Meredith and Orisino have not done their jobs, they’re supposed to work together but their relationship has completely broken down. For Hawke I think the question is whether he believes in that system. The right of annulment is a horrible solution to a very real problem. We saw in DAO how quickly a tower can spiral out of control when infiltrated by blood magic. The Kirkwall circle has been infiltrated by blood magic, we have seen this throughout the game. For my Hawke it was never a question of “Is Meredith right or is Orisino right?”……….because they are both wrong to varying degrees. It’s more a question of whether he/she believes in the circle system, and in the threat posed by the Mages. And for me that very much depends on who my Hawke is and how he/she has been affected by their time in Kirkwall. Yes that gray morality is one of the things that made me love the series About the grey morality: the Circle system in Southern-Thedas, the slavery in Tevinter, the treatment of city elves not "grey". The people are "grey". Dorian, for example, think, that the slavery's acceptable. He told, that some slaves live better, than some peasants. Dorian's evil? Not. But the system is evil, even, if there are families, who treat their slaves as family members. A Templar, for example, who really believe, that s/he serves the good and protects people, and believe, that the Circle's necessary, isn't evil, of course. Even if s/he's not right about that. The system is evil.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 5, 2017 19:27:02 GMT
A potential reason is if Hawke doesn't want to fight against Carver, if Carver is a Templar. Or Hawke's an idiot, and think, that if s/he supports Meredith, she will nice to Bethany. And want to protect Meredith against her will. I really can't see mage Hawke doing that. If Hawke was a type of mage who would fight with Templars s/he would've surrendered to the Circle in Act1 Ofc, this is a potential reason, not that this is a good reason... To support Meredith as a mage never logical.
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Post by tacsear on Sept 5, 2017 19:41:56 GMT
Yes that gray morality is one of the things that made me love the series About the grey morality: the Circle system in Southern-Thedas, the slavery in Tevinter, the treatment of city elves not "grey". The people are "grey". Dorian, for example, think, that the slavery's acceptable. He told, that some slaves live better, than some peasants. Dorian's evil? Not. But the system is evil, even, if there are families, who treat their slaves as family members. A Templar, for example, who really believe, that s/he serves the good and protects people, and believe, that the Circle's necessary, isn't evil, of course. Even if s/he's not right about that. The system is evil. The circle that was being used in Ferelden and Kirkwall were bad true but the idea of circles and templars is grey. You cannot call Cassandta's view of the Chantry and mages evil it has plenty good merits. As long as it is being done right, it is a grey area
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Post by tacsear on Sept 5, 2017 19:42:35 GMT
I really can't see mage Hawke doing that. If Hawke was a type of mage who would fight with Templars s/he would've surrendered to the Circle in Act1 Ofc, this is a potential reason, not that this is a good reason... To support Meredith as a mage never logical. I'm telling you, Hawke wanting to bang Meredith is the most valid reason
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Post by Catilina on Sept 5, 2017 19:53:22 GMT
Ofc, this is a potential reason, not that this is a good reason... To support Meredith as a mage never logical. I'm telling you, Hawke wanting to bang Meredith is the most valid reason Not really my type, but okay. Thats... a reason. But... rivalry?
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