inherit
2601
0
104
cooldude
117
January 2017
cooldude
|
Post by cooldude on May 24, 2017 11:35:11 GMT
What I hated most about the Suvi conversation, was her lack of confidence in saying she believed in a creator. I think if a person feels that awkward about it, they should reevaluate why they believe in it in the first place.
|
|
inherit
7535
0
2,066
abaris
2,013
April 2017
abaris
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by abaris on May 24, 2017 11:46:36 GMT
*spits up coffee* Errr, what? Are you trying to tell me that Ayn Rand was a balanced individual? No, but that atheists come in all shapes and colors, since they are people, who tend to come in all shapes and colors. The only (very small) uniting factor is they don't believe in god(s). As for finding this or that philosophy - or agenda - in a game, people tend to look at what they don't like and call it agenda or making the case for science over religion. Suvi, badly written as she is, in my opinion, even tries to make a case for science not excluding religious believes. Bioware has always tried to present diversity. Political and social. A mirror of the real world, so to speak. Maybe even an ideal, where people aren't at each others throats because of being or feeling differently. I view their games in the tradition of Star Trek, which had similar messages, even in the 60ies. The only agenda, if I were looking for an agenda, is the getting along with each other theme.
|
|
helios969
N4
Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
Prime Likes: Who Cares
Posts: 1,993 Likes: 2,680
inherit
867
0
2,680
helios969
Kamisama
1,993
August 2016
helios969
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
helios969
No Clue
Who Cares
|
Post by helios969 on May 24, 2017 11:48:36 GMT
People really need to see the God Suvi mentioned with an eye detached from our reality. The debate was more along the line of "is there a superior intelligence that through science operates our universe in a orderly and rational manner or are we left to the chaos and randomness of things getting created for no apparent reason?". Another way to see at the question would be "Does the Universe have a rational mind?". These are serious questions that science can't dismiss yet at this point, the God of Suvi doesn't seem to like a dogmatic tyrant that judge our behaviours but more like an intelligence or "force" that is beyond this petty concerns and is more focused in keeping a balance of its creation operating for the preservation of what was created. I wouldn't define that type of belief as "religion" more like scientist spiritualism. If we admit that science is the dominion of rationality and the physical reality follow the rational laws of science then maybe it's not so unreasonable that those rational natural laws have a rational motive or intelligence behind it. I have met plenty of scientists that can accept "God" or a Superior Intelligence if put in this terms. Where does Suvi's God come from? She's a scientist for fuck's sake, she should know her stance on God is really problematic. She only opens up new problems on who created God and then we need to answer who created that god, etc, etc, etc. As someone who's spent a career in applied physics Suvi's beliefs are not unusual. You'd be surprised how many scientists are able to reconcile science and faith. Hell, my previous supervisor was a Catholic priest who held PhD's in Physics and Chemistry. Personally, I'm somewhat envious of people who can find solace in such beliefs but as an agnostic I've never been able to reconcile the rational with the unknown.
|
|
inherit
3122
0
1,921
projectpatdc
1,811
January 2017
projectpatdc
Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
projectpat06
|
Post by projectpatdc on May 24, 2017 12:09:23 GMT
What I hated most about the Suvi conversation, was her lack of confidence in saying she believed in a creator. I think if a person feels that awkward about it, they should reevaluate why they believe in it in the first place. I think it was done pretty wel for someone who is not only a scientist but one who travels across space encountering so many other cultures that contradicts religion. You can also have faith in a God but question everything you've known in a religion. Thinking about the universe in general about how it's infinite without boundaries yet living organisms on a microscopic scale exist. You start to realize even after giving everything a scientific explanation that contradicts any religion, something still created it all. The game does a better job than the OT with creator vs created by diving more into organic life and actually having a soul. Infinite vs finite. It begs the question to be asked even if we don't "live forever" after we die, what higher power created us in the first place to give anything existence. And really the only comforting in Suvi or even Jamal's case is faith.
|
|
caterpillar
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: yangthecat
Posts: 91 Likes: 238
inherit
8031
0
Sept 21, 2017 23:27:23 GMT
238
caterpillar
91
Apr 26, 2017 18:01:56 GMT
April 2017
caterpillar
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
yangthecat
|
Post by caterpillar on May 24, 2017 12:28:29 GMT
To me,the whole issue seems really forced and maybe a pet issue of someone who writes for ME. The conversation about Ashley's faith in ME1 is kind of similar, though Ash is not a scientist. But there's that theme there too, of a believer expecting to be belittled for their faith because in the future, we believe in science or some crap. I have zero interest in monotheism (except when it wants to regulate my life according to its rules), and I just get irritated when my character's responses are limited to monotheistic views of spirituality. My Buddhist Ryder actually said 'reincarnation is a nice idea' to the angara priestess on Voeld, when what she would have liked to discuss is how angaran belief in reincarnation differs from hers. No, I don't expect ME to account for every world religion in their game. But I wish they'd just drop it.
|
|
Mad Cassidy
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 25 Likes: 99
inherit
1535
0
Aug 26, 2019 16:30:06 GMT
99
Mad Cassidy
25
Sept 10, 2016 22:24:16 GMT
September 2016
madcassidy
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Mad Cassidy on May 24, 2017 12:42:50 GMT
Where does Suvi's God come from? She's a scientist for fuck's sake, she should know her stance on God is really problematic. She only opens up new problems on who created God and then we need to answer who created that god, etc, etc, etc. As someone who's spent a career in applied physics Suvi's beliefs are not unusual. You'd be surprised how many scientists are able to reconcile science and faith. Hell, my previous supervisor was a Catholic priest who held PhD's in Physics and Chemistry. Personally, I'm somewhat envious of people who can find solace in such beliefs but as an agnostic I've never been able to reconcile the rational with the unknown. I wouldn't be envious. Faith in something that is not falsifiable isn't an asset to a scientific (or really any) mind. If you can justify believing in one specific thing without any (good) evidence, or by ignoring evidence to the contrary, but then hold everything else to a different standard, it's a big problem. Consistency is important, and nothing should get a free pass just because the idea of it tickles you in a special kind of way. Suvi's view is problematic because there's no way to falsify her claims. How is the universe any different if there is or isn't some invisible intelligence setting things in place? If the answer is that the universe doesn't look any different, then it's not a useful view to hold. Unknowns don't give you carte blanche to fill in the blanks however you desire.
|
|
inherit
Ohm's Law Compels You
207
0
19,211
Qui-Gon GlenN7
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
5,762
August 2016
quigonglenn
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
qui_gon_glenn
2108
|
Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on May 24, 2017 12:45:31 GMT
That Suvi conversation was fucking dreadful, what kind of person says "God can't exist" to someone who's religious? An honest person, who says fuck tact, and maybe doesn't care how others perceive him when he is telling the truth. God may exist, but LOL any "biblical" God from any religion ancient or modern. When I am confronted with true believers, I will absolutely challenge them in the right circumstance. So... My kind of person says this.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
923
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 12:57:09 GMT
People really need to see the God Suvi mentioned with an eye detached from our reality. The debate was more along the line of "is there a superior intelligence that through science operates our universe in a orderly and rational manner or are we left to the chaos and randomness of things getting created for no apparent reason?". Another way to see at the question would be "Does the Universe have a rational mind?". These are serious questions that science can't dismiss yet at this point, the God of Suvi doesn't seem to like a dogmatic tyrant that judge our behaviours but more like an intelligence or "force" that is beyond this petty concerns and is more focused in keeping a balance of its creation operating for the preservation of what was created. I wouldn't define that type of belief as "religion" more like scientist spiritualism. If we admit that science is the dominion of rationality and the physical reality follow the rational laws of science then maybe it's not so unreasonable that those rational natural laws have a rational motive or intelligence behind it. I have met plenty of scientists that can accept "God" or a Superior Intelligence if put in this terms. Where does Suvi's God come from?She's a scientist for fuck's sake, she should know her stance on God is really problematic. She only opens up new problems on who created God and then we need to answer who created that god, etc, etc, etc. There's a huge spiritual literature about God and creation outside of the usual "sacred" books like the Bible or the Koran. Many of them present a creator very different than those books do. One of them, called "Conversations with God", written in the 90's by a man (Neale Donald Walsch, an american) who claim to have "channeled" God during 3 years, has become a best-seller in its category. True or not, it's a passionating reading that offers a very interesting view on the creation. "God" says in it that he/she has created the universe to "know by experience" what he/she only knew by concept, and thus to increase his/her knowledge about himself/herself and how life evolve. There's no judgment at the end (and certainly no punishment based on how we dress, what we eat... nor, as Suvi says, if we brush our theet or not). He/she doesn't clearly answer wheter he/she has been created or not though... I agree with Basileus, plenty of scientists beliece in a creator, science and belief aren't exclusive. Newton, Einstein, Pasteur (who once said "a little bit of science distances one to God, much science nears one to him") were all believers...
|
|
inherit
7535
0
2,066
abaris
2,013
April 2017
abaris
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by abaris on May 24, 2017 13:36:46 GMT
An honest person, who says fuck tact, and maybe doesn't care how other's perceive him when he is telling the truth. God may exist, but LOL any "biblical" God from any religion ancient or modern. When I am confronted with true believers, I will absolutely challenge them in the right circumstance. So... My kind of person says this. As long as they leave me alone, I extend the same courtesy to them. I did the same with Suvi in replying "believe what you want". In reality I never had that conversation even once in my life. People don't talk about religion or it's absence where I live. It never comes up unless you ask for it.
|
|
timebean
N3
It's just a game, folks...
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
Posts: 540 Likes: 1,203
inherit
1378
0
Feb 11, 2018 21:26:55 GMT
1,203
timebean
It's just a game, folks...
540
Aug 31, 2016 13:20:50 GMT
August 2016
timebean
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
|
Post by timebean on May 24, 2017 13:45:08 GMT
|
|
timebean
N3
It's just a game, folks...
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
Posts: 540 Likes: 1,203
inherit
1378
0
Feb 11, 2018 21:26:55 GMT
1,203
timebean
It's just a game, folks...
540
Aug 31, 2016 13:20:50 GMT
August 2016
timebean
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
|
Post by timebean on May 24, 2017 14:04:47 GMT
But seriously...I am really tired of the cheap idea that we must stack science against religion.
Example: - I was an atheist long before I was a scientist. These things have nothing to do with one another. - My best friend is a hard-core Catholic and is a scientist. She is perfectly sane and quite charming.
Generalization: - Lots of people think they are atheists because of 'science' when they don't have the first clue how real science actually works. - Religious folks who think scientists are trying to destroy religion are pretty delusional (and perhaps should read some history books).
Opinion: The Suvi conversation was trite and boring. Didn't bother me, but did make me roll my eyes. I had conversations like that with folks when I was a a teenager, and they were much more interesting (and we spoke in clear voices instead of annoying whispers). As an adult, I find that most folks are less "needy" when it comes to discussing their faith or lack of faith.
Funny quip: As an atheist who grew up in the bible belt of America (who was one of two students who chose "Computer Lab" over "Bible Group" as an elementary school elective, and was literally "hissed" at by other students because of it), I always get a real chuckle out of religious folks who think they are being ridiculed (like poor little Suvi and her special feelings). The truth is, majority/minority groups are spatially and temporally variable, so whether your ideas are accepted or ridiculed changes with the breeze. We can all whine now and again, but let's not get carried away with it.
|
|
inherit
184
0
4,057
kino
The path up and down are one and the same.
2,066
August 2016
kino
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
kinom001
|
Post by kino on May 24, 2017 14:37:17 GMT
hah. "Now defunct". hah. Ebay...bunch of assholes, amirite? A persons soul should be at least the bidding price. What is this hah without yah? A palindrome.
|
|
Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
Prime Likes: 1340
Posts: 862 Likes: 1,935
inherit
306
0
1,935
Sah291
862
August 2016
sah291
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
1,240
1340
|
Post by Sah291 on May 24, 2017 14:46:51 GMT
Is the overall message of Mass Effect Andromeda that science and religion are incompatible with one another and you should choose a side? If yes is this yet more influence from the left wing of politics creeping into entertainment? And have we dodged a bullet with the game on hiatus? In what way? I think the opposite, it has certain themes, encouraging the audience to question whether they are really just a meat sack walking around, and whether that's all there is to reality. And yep the relationship between creator and created, and between faith and science.... but these are standard tropes and themes in scifi fantasy. The trilogy had them. It's part of the genre on a fundamental level. What bullet have we've dogged by ME being put on ice? Not saying the game was perfect or couldn't have been better written or executed. But for probing questions about science and religion? That would be a shame, and makes for a more dull entertainment industry.
|
|
inherit
131
0
Dec 17, 2018 14:01:15 GMT
1,803
Ahriman
1,503
August 2016
ahriman
|
Post by Ahriman on May 24, 2017 14:53:02 GMT
Opinion: The Suvi conversation was trite and boring. Didn't bother me, but did make me roll my eyes. I had conversations like that with folks when I was a a teenager, and they were much more interesting (and we spoke in clear voices instead of annoying whispers). As an adult, I find that most folks are less "needy" when it comes to discussing their faith or lack of faith. I don't know, but it always gets kinda awkward for me, when a game tries to portray modern religion views. I'm fine with fantasy or medieval religions because they like to burn people for stuff and it's important for a setting, but here it gets as safe as possible and falls bland, like why do you even bring it up if nobody cares and everyone is fine? Said "whatever floats your" first time, then got rock licking dialogue and realized I'm speaking with special kind of person and never bothered talking to here again. Whatever.
|
|
inherit
7535
0
2,066
abaris
2,013
April 2017
abaris
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by abaris on May 24, 2017 15:56:15 GMT
Opinion: The Suvi conversation was trite and boring. Didn't bother me, but did make me roll my eyes. I had conversations like that with folks when I was a a teenager, and they were much more interesting (and we spoke in clear voices instead of annoying whispers). As an adult, I find that most folks are less "needy" when it comes to discussing their faith or lack of faith. Yeah, and that's a valid concern, which I share by the way. Inserting an agenda into each and every instance of this game isn't. I don't like certain aspects or how they have been handled either, but I don't go out on a limb calling it an agenda or inserting certain political views into an entertainment product. The game presents people of all shades and colors. If it does it well, is another debate to be had - and which has already been had ad nauseam - but it's not an agenda. The game offers the player this one chance to stay true to their own believes or it's absence. The mere fact that there are two options to reply should make it very clear that this isn't agenda or politics, but only the opportunity to say what the person behind the screen would say about themselves without being force fed a character, who's nothing like the player. I for one would find that very disturbing.
|
|
ScumbagShepurd
N3
Shaking spear, trolling OP, burying Brad.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 871 Likes: 1,126
inherit
493
0
1,126
ScumbagShepurd
Shaking spear, trolling OP, burying Brad.
871
August 2016
scumbagshepurd
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by ScumbagShepurd on May 24, 2017 16:11:28 GMT
That Suvi conversation was fucking dreadful, what kind of person says "God can't exist" to someone who's religious? If it's a friendly exchange of your opinions, not some aggressive try to brainwash each other, then why not? "Do you believe in God, Scumbag?" "Nah, I think god can't exist." "Really?" "Yep. Let's have a beer." And that is basically what conversation between Ryder and Suvi looked like. At what point was that talk being rude/aggressive/bullying to the religious person? Are you saying an atheist should never ever tell a believer that there's no god? Then what kind of conversation would that be, only one's talking and the other is either mute or agreeing?
|
|
inherit
231
0
Jan 20, 2022 14:46:14 GMT
1,840
goishen
twitch.tv/goishen
2,360
August 2016
goishen
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
goishen
|
Post by goishen on May 24, 2017 16:18:24 GMT
That Suvi conversation was fucking dreadful, what kind of person says "God can't exist" to someone who's religious? If it's a friendly exchange of your opinions, not some aggressive try to brainwash each other, then why not? "Do you believe in God, Scumbag?" "Nah, I think god can't exist." "Really?" "Yep. Let's have a beer." And that is basically what conversation between Ryder and Suvi looked like. At what point was that talk being rude/aggressive/bullying to the religious person? Are you saying an atheist should never ever tell a believer that there's no god? Then what kind of conversation would that be, only one's talking and the other is either mute or agreeing? Hahahaha. I've been called all the way from an immoral person to a devil worshipper once I tell people I'm an atheist. It happens to me all the time, so now I just don't bring it up especially to bible thumpers. Haha. That's funny.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
31,137
Hanako Ikezawa
22,789
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 24, 2017 16:20:08 GMT
|
|
inherit
7535
0
2,066
abaris
2,013
April 2017
abaris
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by abaris on May 24, 2017 16:35:28 GMT
Hahahaha. I've been called all the way from an immoral person to a devil worshipper once I tell people I'm an atheist. As I said, I never had the pleasure of being called names. In my country noone even remotely cares. It doesn't come up in daily conversations, job interviews, politcs even. It's considered peculiar and fills columns if some politician invokes god anyway. If you aren't actively looking for religion, it's never rubbed in your face. The Suvi conversation is as harmless and meaningless as they come. I don't see why anyone could complain over it, since there is the chance to confimr or reject what she says. So there's something there for both sides of the spectrum. I would have been disturbed if a religious lead had been rubbed in my face. But I would have also been disturbed if atheism had been the only option. Since both options are readily available, noone had to play a character they can't get behind the basics.
|
|
Pokemario
N3
First of the Dalish
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Pokemario
Posts: 311 Likes: 540
inherit
First of the Dalish
1187
0
540
Pokemario
311
August 2016
pokemario
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Pokemario
|
Post by Pokemario on May 24, 2017 16:37:28 GMT
I'm getting the irresistible urge to smash every single Ryncol bottle you have left.
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
Jun 11, 2024 16:44:23 GMT
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on May 24, 2017 16:37:47 GMT
Suvi isn't going on about shit like young earth creationism or something, so who cares?
|
|
inherit
231
0
Jan 20, 2022 14:46:14 GMT
1,840
goishen
twitch.tv/goishen
2,360
August 2016
goishen
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
goishen
|
Post by goishen on May 24, 2017 16:38:54 GMT
Hahahaha. I've been called all the way from an immoral person to a devil worshipper once I tell people I'm an atheist. As I said, I never had the pleasure of being called names. In my country noone even remotely cares. It doesn't come up in daily conversations, job interviews, politcs even. It's considered peculiar and fills columns if some politician invokes god anyway. If you aren't actively looking for religion, it's never rubbed in your face. The Suvi conversation is as harmless and meaningless as they come. I don't see why anyone could complain over it, since there is the chance to confimr or reject what she says. So there's something there for both sides of the spectrum. I would have been disturbed if a religious lead had been rubbed in my face. But I would have also been disturbed if atheism had been the only option. Since both options are readily available, noone had to play a character they can't get behind the basics. Yah, and I bet you're in Europe. Come to the States. We're almost as ass backwards as twelfth century Turkey.
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
Jun 11, 2024 16:44:23 GMT
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on May 24, 2017 16:40:12 GMT
Well, at least our food is better than 12th century Turkey's.
|
|
inherit
7535
0
2,066
abaris
2,013
April 2017
abaris
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by abaris on May 24, 2017 16:40:12 GMT
Suvi isn't going on about shit like young earth creationism or something, so who cares? Maybe the ones who smell an agenda - again. I get this feeling of this game being developed by the Bilderbergers, listening to how many hidden agendas have been already revealed.
|
|
inherit
7535
0
2,066
abaris
2,013
April 2017
abaris
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by abaris on May 24, 2017 16:41:20 GMT
Yah, and I bet you're in Europe. Come to the States. We're almost as ass backwards as twelfth century Turkey. Don't have to tell me. I spend a lot of time talking to Americans. So I know about the burdens.
|
|