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Post by unwanted on May 25, 2017 5:30:18 GMT
Agreed, kills replay value stone dead. The only reason I would, or will play this or Inquisition again would be to f*** around to see what I could break.
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Post by kira on May 25, 2017 5:37:21 GMT
I don't understand how open world can be any worse for replay than on-rails shooter.
If it is simply the quantity of content that many people do not want to repeat, the overwhelming majority of the quests in the game are entirely optional and nobody is in forced to do them.
If people believe every playthrough has to be complete, but they resent the inclusion of content that does not qualify as adequately fun for them, than, well, I can't help them.
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Post by clips7 on May 25, 2017 6:14:55 GMT
The open world design felt real and organic for me. I will have no issues with the side-quests if they made them interesting. Get rid of the boring filler side-quests and replace them with interesting side-quests and i will explore those open worlds EVERY single time. Even if it means the result would be fewer side-quests, i'd be ok with that...quality over quantity. Those small side missions in ME2 in the form of those "SOS" missions? They wasn't that big, but they added to the game and what you was doing. Dead Space 3 (i know linear game) had a few side-missions in that game too, but every time i play that game i will ALWAYS do those side missions because they have you walking through dark tight corridors and you get information relating to the story AND there was always a huge reward at the end in the form of weapons or equipment. A few side missions in Andromeda had you finishing side missions with nothing more than a mission completed or you have the NPC just saying to you afterwards "thank you..i will never forget this"..lol wut?.. ....i just traveled across the cosmos to place some braclet on top of a mountain getting my a$$ waxed by Brute Fiends, Kett and Remnants and that is all you have to say???!!..... ......
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Post by kira on May 25, 2017 6:27:07 GMT
A few side missions in Andromeda had you finishing side missions with nothing more than a mission completed or you have the NPC just saying to you afterwards "thank you..i will never forget this"..lol wut?.. ....i just traveled across the cosmos to place some braclet on top of a mountain getting my a$$ waxed by Brute Fiends, Kett and Remnants and that is all you have to say???!!..... ...... I mean, that's a tough one. For me, a quest like that is it's own reward, because I naturally switch on roleplay in my head every time I play a RPG, and that's enough to make me feel like I've accomplished something for a family when I do it (and the 270 xp bump isn't unwelcome). Extra dialogue and other stuff, is it necessary, or a redundant use of resources? I'm not really thinking 'damnit, i'm sitting on a computer, driving my nomad up this cliff, for what, bump up some numbers so I get closer to the epic fight, or mark off a task because of OCD, finish the game, walk out of here and make plans for real life'. The question of immersion and what is rewarding is very much a personal thing though.
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Post by SofaJockey on May 25, 2017 6:54:51 GMT
The player doesn't have to complete everything for each playthrough. Change it up. Do a playthrough by only completing the main story. Do a speedrun. Change the order of completing side missions. Instead of using a shotgun for a playthrough, use a pistol. Or do a melee only playthrough. The problem with this is you still need to spend a bunch of time driving around worlds and things even if you are ignoring the side quests. And in DAI you HAVE to do at least some side stuff to unlock power points just to get to the next story part. A completed critical path playthrough of MEA to enjoy a specific romance took me 11 hours. (a 98% playthrough took me 90 hours). So the decision to not pursue additional content is largely in the players' control.
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Post by clips7 on May 25, 2017 7:12:54 GMT
A few side missions in Andromeda had you finishing side missions with nothing more than a mission completed or you have the NPC just saying to you afterwards "thank you..i will never forget this"..lol wut?.. ....i just traveled across the cosmos to place some braclet on top of a mountain getting my a$$ waxed by Brute Fiends, Kett and Remnants and that is all you have to say???!!..... ...... I mean, that's a tough one. For me, a quest like that is it's own reward, because I naturally switch on roleplay in my head every time I play a RPG, and that's enough to make me feel like I've accomplished something for a family when I do it (and the 270 xp bump isn't unwelcome). Extra dialogue and other stuff, is it necessary, or a redundant use of resources? I'm not really thinking 'damnit, i'm sitting on a computer, driving my nomad up this cliff, for what, bump up some numbers so I get closer to the epic fight, or mark off a task because of OCD, finish the game, walk out of here and make plans for real life'. The question of immersion and what is rewarding is very much a personal thing though. ...... ...............Damn you Kira!....being the voice of reason...i agree 100%.... .....when you put it from that perspective, yeah you are doing it for a family member that is grieving about their loss.....
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
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Post by correctamundo on May 25, 2017 8:15:25 GMT
I think many factors (mentioned by others in this thread) combine to make MEA replay less attractive to me : 1. Profiles - in MET, the class system gave a unique feel and playing style to each character. 2. Paragon/Renegade - unique dialogue and interrupt options encouraged at least 2 PT (one Paragon, one Renegade). 3. Meaningful decisions - save Kaiden or Ashley, kill Wrex or not, kill Rana or not, save the Council or not, save the Rachni queen or not, choose Udina or Anderson, etc. in ME1. Similar meaningful decisions in ME2/ME3. What meaningful decisions do we make in MEA (main quest)? A few choices that end up with only superficially different (Sloane vs. Reyes, Salarians vs. Krogans) outcomes. 4. Crafting system - to craft the best weapons/armor, you need crafting supplies. Which make players want to grind/explore/find stuff that have no impact to the main story. After 1 or 2 or 3 PT, this can become a chore/boring. And the large open worlds do not help. On my next PT, I plan to do just the main story quests, to see if I enjoy it more. 1. If you like to be stuck in a class just don't swithch profiles. Easy fix. 2. When you put it that way unique dialogue and interrupts encourage at least four PT in MEA. 3. Rana, Council, Rachni Queen, Udian vs Andersson etc. Just how are any of those more meaningful than killing Kalinda or not? Choosing interim ambassador? Stopping Sloanes drug business or letting it continue? Slaughtering all the firefighters or ending it peacefully? Giving the Krogans the drive core? Nilken murder charge? Contrary to ME1 here we get to see the consequences in game instead of having to wait another game (and they were ultimately pointless most of the time in MET). Furthermore choosing between Raeka and Dracks scouts is anything BUT superficial. Same for making Avitus be pathfinder or not or killing Akksul or not etc etc. Those choices have "real" in game consequences. We don't get to kill anyone of the Tempest crew. That is true. But I do have Drack hanging by a thread in one PT. He really despises me now and it wil be interesting to see what that will amount to in the future. There is nothing like the Virmire sacrifice - yet. We do get to kill Dunn. In a roundabout way. But I guess her living or dying is meaningless. 4. You can of course just go with looted or bought like in the olden days. It's not like anyone is forcing you to do any crafting. They have actually given us a choice. Those that like crafting can do it and those that don't can just shop till they drop or go with finders keepers. How is that bad for replay? For anything?
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Post by kheld on May 25, 2017 8:53:34 GMT
Although I like the idea of open world, I have never finished an open world game until MEA.
I always get bored, or my pc breaks, or a new game comes along.
So I have never finished Morrowind, Oblivion or DA:I (I've never finished any DA game actually).
I did stay at it for ME:A, because it's Mass Effect, but I really started to hate the game midway through.
I have played through the original trilogy many times because it's fun & rarely drags.
If we ever get another Mass Effect game I would like a MEA / ME2 hybrid.
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I am Pathfinder rah bah bah
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by qwib on May 25, 2017 8:54:58 GMT
I don't understand how open world can be any worse for replay than on-rails shooter. If it is simply the quantity of content that many people do not want to repeat, the overwhelming majority of the quests in the game are entirely optional and nobody is in forced to do them. If people believe every playthrough has to be complete, but they resent the inclusion of content that does not qualify as adequately fun for them, than, well, I can't help them. But my OCD. :rage: Honestly, I have an obscene amount of ME2 playthroughs and after the first playthrough I just edited the savegames to give me maximum ressources so I could check out all additional dialogues, all the romances and play every class. There is absolutely no need for an 100% playthrough everytime, not even in linear game like ME2. I even make disaster playthroughs were I just do the minimum required to see what happens in Sequels. You get some interesting results in ME3 and dialogues you can't see otherwise. I just do one 100% playthrough as my canon Ryder at some point.
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Post by Felya87 on May 25, 2017 9:22:01 GMT
In Horizon, Oblivion, Skyrim the Fallout games, open world is funfor me: the journey to go to point A to point B is an adventure, and a easily skipped one to not became boring, be it with a mount ot teleporting to an already discovered place. I didn't play Horizon since it's a platform exclusive, but for the others, there are different reasons to play certain games. Bioware's are story driven, more of an adventure than an open world game. The Bethesda games draw their strengths from being open world whereas the main story always was lackluster at best. Now that doesn't say that Bioware couldn't have pulled a believable mix of both. It's their second open world attempt so far, after DAI. In DAI I was rather appaled by your camp wardens not even reacting to you being directly attacked in the camp. They just went about their merry way as if nothing happened. But the maps contained a lot more life and a lot more to discover than in MEA. They repeated the mistake of not reacting NPCs. The world is static as it has been in Morrowind. They simply don't manage to create the illusion of life and player agency over shaping the worlds they present. They are totally static. If they took this one page out of Bethesdas book. The one about creating the illusion of your environment being something filled with life instead of statues, their approach at open world would probably be more appealing to me than Bethesdas. Horizon is very story driven, so it can be a better example than the Bethesda games. Thing is, the open world is dinamic, reactive and interesting enought to not be a chore going to point A to point B, and it may not be enormous as world, but have the advantage of no loading screen: all is fluid, and make traveling like a variable part of the story. Is an example of open world made to enchante the story telling. The problem is always that open world is not used in a right way, at least in BioWare games: there are two ways in making open world (in my opinion): one is the Bethesda way, where the world is made to be alive and interesting enought to be more important than the story itself (I still haven't finished the main story in any Bethesda game, even if I've played a lot both the Fallout and Skyrim/Oblivion) or the Horizon/Nier:Automata way: a world that let the player have a completely fluid experience with no loading screen, where the travel is a good part of the fun.
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Post by abaris on May 25, 2017 9:46:34 GMT
The problem is always that open world is not used in a right way, at least in BioWare games: there are two ways in making open world (in my opinion): one is the Bethesda way, where the world is made to be alive and interesting enought to be more important than the story itself (I still haven't finished the main story in any Bethesda game, even if I've played a lot both the Fallout and Skyrim/Oblivion) or the Horizon/Nier:Automata way: a world that let the player have a completely fluid experience with no loading screen, where the travel is a good part of the fun. For me combining Bioware's strengths with Bethesdas would make for a near perfect game. An open world that comes alive and a real story. Most of all interesting companions. One, the open world part, is Bethesdas, and the other one is Bioware. The concepts coming together, while leaving out the weaknesses, is what I'm looking for.
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Post by Felya87 on May 25, 2017 11:02:18 GMT
The problem is always that open world is not used in a right way, at least in BioWare games: there are two ways in making open world (in my opinion): one is the Bethesda way, where the world is made to be alive and interesting enought to be more important than the story itself (I still haven't finished the main story in any Bethesda game, even if I've played a lot both the Fallout and Skyrim/Oblivion) or the Horizon/Nier:Automata way: a world that let the player have a completely fluid experience with no loading screen, where the travel is a good part of the fun. For me combining Bioware's strengths with Bethesdas would make for a near perfect game. An open world that comes alive and a real story. Most of all interesting companions. One, the open world part, is Bethesdas, and the other one is Bioware. The concepts coming together, while leaving out the weaknesses, is what I'm looking for. Same here... I love Horizon because made a lot of this came true, even if there is very little choice freedom and no character customization. In Fallout 4 there is an attempt to make better companions, and I have to give Bethesda the praise for tryng (even if the rest isn't that great).
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Post by abaris on May 25, 2017 11:05:58 GMT
In Fallout 4 there is an attempt to make better companions, and I have to give Bethesda the praise for tryng (even if the rest isn't that great). If they'd left the romances out. Not that I'm against romances, but in this game it's just number crunching and entirely useless since you can establish a mixed harem. Regardless of sexual orientation, jealousy or any meaningful element to ít.
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Post by Felya87 on May 25, 2017 11:20:14 GMT
In Fallout 4 there is an attempt to make better companions, and I have to give Bethesda the praise for tryng (even if the rest isn't that great). If they'd left the romances out. Not that I'm against romances, but in this game it's just number crunching and entirely useless since you can establish a mixed harem. Regardless of sexual orientation, jealousy or any meaningful element to ít. Romances in Fallout 4 are clumsly, but are one of the good things they did in the game in my opinion. I like them. They just suffer the usual half-baked treatment Bethesda reserve for so many things in their games. And is one of the things I really miss in Horizon.
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Post by projectpatdc on May 25, 2017 11:20:27 GMT
100% the game, move on to next game, replay MEA a few months later.
MEA wasn't built to replay over and over again like the old games that were much shorter. It was built to be over 100 hours so you can enjoy the game in its entirety in one playthrough. The old games forced me to play through the same repetitive campaign that I already knew just to try out other powers or actually use all my characters. That was boring. I hate doing multiple playthroughs of a linear only game. There's way too many other games to play.
You only need to do maybe two or three playthroughs at most and there's no reason to be in any hurry to rush through it. Mass Effect won't be coming back out for some time now
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Post by dmc1001 on May 25, 2017 11:24:27 GMT
I have to say this is my personal biggest problem with Biowares last two games. I mean I like Dragon Age Inquisition and Mass Effect Andromeda well enough and like the cast of characters for both. But the open worlds make it such a chore to go back and try different things. A new romance a new story path? Not worth the open world slog. In older DA and ME games it was alright to fight through the stages areas. But with the big open world it is just to much for me. So even if Bioware made the best open world of all time it would still suck. At least for the way Bioware dose it's story's and romances. I have to admit that while I like DAI overall, I find it tedious to have such expansive areas to cover, going back and forth all over the map. Having just completed ME1 again, I was reminded of how nice it was to only retrace steps a few times (a mission opens up in a cluster you already visited) rather than over and over and over again. I'm not saying I can't handle it but I'd just as well do without it.
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Post by projectpatdc on May 25, 2017 11:26:12 GMT
Funny. Open world never killed skyrim replay. Sure, after 100 hours you have large collection of potions, and you have killed 5000 draugrs. In the next replay you have the same. One mile wide, one inch deep. But you have freedom to approach the story content as you please or not at all. Same reason why MEA is more fun than having to replay the story over and over again
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Post by projectpatdc on May 25, 2017 11:28:18 GMT
I don't understand how open world can be any worse for replay than on-rails shooter. If it is simply the quantity of content that many people do not want to repeat, the overwhelming majority of the quests in the game are entirely optional and nobody is in forced to do them. If people believe every playthrough has to be complete, but they resent the inclusion of content that does not qualify as adequately fun for them, than, well, I can't help them. Yup this sums up the insanity of most of the people on this forum complaining about the replay value and open world.
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Post by abaris on May 25, 2017 11:53:22 GMT
Romances in Fallout 4 are clumsly, but are one of the good things they did in the game in my opinion. I like them. They just suffer the usual half-baked treatment Bethesda reserve for so many things in their games. And is one of the things I really miss in Horizon. That's why I said, combined strengths would make for a near perfect game. Both Bioware and Bethesda shine in some aspects and they suck at others. In Bethesdas case it's the world not reacting to your achievements and rather poorly written companions and the newly introduced romances. In Biowares case it's statuesque NPCs and newly introduced worlds or maps that don't even try at looking alive. What Beth has going for it is the moddability. I very much doubt that I would play their games nearly as much if it wasn't for the excellen modding community.
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Post by Psychevore on May 25, 2017 12:01:45 GMT
Open world is only a problem if you're struck by a very common affliction in gamers: completionism.
I used to be afflicted by this, but then DA:I happened and I was instantly cured and found out there's different ways to enjoy games: by doing the things you enjoy doing in those games. The things you want to do. Like, kill all the Dragons in DA:I (would be Architets in ME:A).
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 12:11:33 GMT
I agree. BioWare open world games are much more boring, I liked ME1-ME3 (and also DAO and DA2) way of doing missions and side missions from ME2 was cool and not too large too disrupt main story or characters progress.
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Post by abaris on May 25, 2017 12:14:51 GMT
I agree. BioWare open world games are much more boring, I liked ME1-ME3 (and also DAO and DA2) way of doing missions and side missions from ME2 was cool and not too large too disrupt main story or characters progress. I didn't feel them to be as boring with DAI as they seem in MEA. With DAI, there was always something to explore or discover. With MEA, there's virtually nothing apart from the generic remnant ruins and Kett or outlaws being dropped in right in front of your nomad to create a false sense of challenge.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 12:18:06 GMT
I don't think the vestiges of the OW kill Andromeda replayability. They do in Inquisition for me because you need to close those rifts and put camps down to advance the plot, but in Andromeda they are easily just.. not done, and all planets easily get to 100 viability only on the main planetary stories that are great and comp missions that are even better. It is really a pretty condensed experience, and there are never silent stretches of boredom or enforced returns to skyhold to do wartable crap to unlock parts of the areas, etc. Also smaller cast eliminated the dread useless companion content & gearing them up you do not want doing like in Inquisition.
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Fatebinder
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Post by Elfen Lied on May 25, 2017 15:22:22 GMT
The player doesn't have to complete everything for each playthrough. Change it up. Do a playthrough by only completing the main story. Do a speedrun. Change the order of completing side missions. Instead of using a shotgun for a playthrough, use a pistol. Or do a melee only playthrough. The problem with this is you still need to spend a bunch of time driving around worlds and things even if you are ignoring the side quests. And in DAI you HAVE to do at least some side stuff to unlock power points just to get to the next story part. Not only for that.. you needed them for perks. In DA:I there were some perks that could open you new dialogue options (Underworld Knowledge, Nobility Knowledge and so on). There were also many perks who could affect in a significant way the gameplay (Advanced and Master Focus, Deft Hands, Fine Tools) You wanted to increase a bit the size of your inventory? Antivan and Imperial tailoring You needed a lot of power to unlock at least the most useful perks. And in order to do that you were forced to do a lot of side content. This is why I always disagreed with whoever used to say "It's totally optional content". Yes it was, if you wanted to play a limited version of the game. So, are you saying that this time is different? I am only 15 hours in the game and I have barely scratched it (just finished to explore the Tempest for the 1st time), but if this will prove true I will be very happy!!!
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Post by Ancient on May 25, 2017 16:20:33 GMT
Open world does not kill replayability properly done. What kills replayability is repetition, aka Bethesda philosophy, in MEA. When you enter new planet you already know what you are going to do. You must do pretty much the same what you did in previous. And you know it.
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