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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2017 23:40:01 GMT
People really fell for Jaal's sentimentality? Not me. I thought he was being too short sighted. Moshea was right. I see though from different forums I have read how many people choose to save the angara and I'm always a bit surprised. It's sort of like saving them to be exalted another day. Maybe not so much now with how the story goes sort of like people not bothering shutting Annea down because it's gonna be all better when you hit meridia but you aren't supposed to know that it turns out that way. Mostly though, the cardinal (was it cardinal?) really really really doesn't want you to destroy, so frankly, that seems like more than a sufficient reason to do so. I don't think it's a sentimental thing either. I think she/he/it knows getting a new one up and running will not be so easy and also it probably takes a lot of time and kett power to capture, test for the ones who are best to exalt then put them into whatever mind scrubbing program they run. Therefore, destruction is probably the best choice. If for no other reason, you just slowed their supply of new troop drastically, and at a time where they now have to deal with pathfinder et al. Destroying the facility is tactically sound. You slow their troop growth right then and they will likely not be able to rebuild the facility at all or not for a while. Nor will they be able to capture as many angara who fight to the death.
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Post by Obadiah on May 27, 2017 23:58:33 GMT
The choice is weird. I've only played the story completely once, but I was on Jaal's side. Hell yeah let's save everyone and bomb the thing later in an hour - or plant a bomb with a timer rigged to go off. Is the facility going somewhere?
So this time, I destroyed it and Jaal was pissed and the Moshae was happy, but I don't know what the rush was.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 28, 2017 0:07:37 GMT
The choice is weird. I've only played the story completely once, but I was on Jaal's side. Hell yeah let's save everyone and bomb the thing later in an hour - or plant a bomb with a timer rigged to go off. Is the facility going somewhere? So this time, I destroyed it and Jaal was pissed and the Moshae was happy, but I don't know what the rush was. I'm not sure any bomb they could carry could really destroy that entire facility. The reason it was able to be blown up this time is because SAM was able to get into their system to access the facility's EM field to overload it. I imagine if the place is left standing, the inbound kett would just take it over and bolster defenses, making it much harder to break back in to destroy it. I think what should have happened later in the game was a report that a resistance group returned in force to attempt to destroy the facility, and ultimately fail with some being captured in the process.
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Post by ShadowAngel on May 28, 2017 0:08:50 GMT
The choice is weird. I've only played the story completely once, but I was on Jaal's side. Hell yeah let's save everyone and bomb the thing later in an hour - or plant a bomb with a timer rigged to go off. Is the facility going somewhere? So this time, I destroyed it and Jaal was pissed and the Moshae was happy, but I don't know what the rush was. Don't think going back would be an option. They weren't expecting the attack, and they had reinforcements coming in that would crush them had they stayed much longer. The initiative isn't a military power regardless if they're own tech is actually better, and the Amhara are so divided they're not a threat either. That first chance would most likely be the only chance since they had the advantage of stealth. i myself saved the Angarra, damn the facility as I was right that they had other means of Exaltation besides that one facility. They may not produce in mass anymore, but they could still take powerful individuals (like the pathfinder).
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2017 0:53:13 GMT
The choice is weird. I've only played the story completely once, but I was on Jaal's side. Hell yeah let's save everyone and bomb the thing later in an hour - or plant a bomb with a timer rigged to go off. Is the facility going somewhere? So this time, I destroyed it and Jaal was pissed and the Moshae was happy, but I don't know what the rush was. Look at it this way, they would know now that you can get into their facility and that it is at risk. Why would they not have more forces there and more watching the area where you got in. Why would they not change their codes to get in. You could hack it again, but they could have more troops stationed there, more kett watching for intruders, more forces in general which would make it very difficult to get into again. In the end, it could cost you as many as you saved. You were able to do it that one time because they never expected it and you got in initially with a small group. Ultimately whatever number you save is always going to be recaptured and exalted as long as the facility exists because they've been doing it for almost a century. But taking out one facility from them is at least slowing down the resupply of new troops. We don't know how many facilities they have. Could be only one or two or even three. That means you either cut off their supply of new troops by 33%, 50% or 100%. I doubt they have more than three. We scanned the whole cluster and the only worlds at the time we were there that were inhabitable were the ones we were on. So unless they take them out of the cluster, that would seem to be the only facility they have. Destroying it basically would cripple them in that capacity. Not destroying it keeps them able to continue rebuilding their troops which means the angara you save will just be replaced with new angara.
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Post by Reorte on May 28, 2017 11:05:15 GMT
Look at it this way, they would know now that you can get into their facility and that it is at risk. Why would they not have more forces there and more watching the area where you got in. Why would they not change their codes to get in. You could hack it again, but they could have more troops stationed there, more kett watching for intruders, more forces in general which would make it very difficult to get into again. That's assuming the kett, and the Archon, aren't idiots.
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Post by mfr001 on May 28, 2017 17:20:25 GMT
Look at it this way, they would know now that you can get into their facility and that it is at risk. Why would they not have more forces there and more watching the area where you got in. Why would they not change their codes to get in. You could hack it again, but they could have more troops stationed there, more kett watching for intruders, more forces in general which would make it very difficult to get into again. That's assuming the kett, and the Archon, aren't idiots. They may not be the sharpest tools in the box, but given the relative ease with which the base was penetrated I find it hard to imagine that no extra preventative steps would be taken. Also, although I have not seen any evidence that failed subordinates have their heads ripped off (game is not quite finished though) I suspect that subordinates buttocks may have been prodded with hobnail boots to encourage improvement.
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Post by melbella on May 28, 2017 17:35:14 GMT
That's assuming the kett, and the Archon, aren't idiots. They may not be the sharpest tools in the box, but given the relative ease with which the base was penetrated I find it hard to imagine that no extra preventative steps would be taken. Also, although I have not seen any evidence that failed subordinates have their heads ripped off (game is not quite finished though) I suspect that subordinates buttocks may have been prodded with hobnail boots to encourage improvement.
I did "Dissension in the Ranks" post-ending and the Primus is sort of like that: kett executed for not falling in line with the new regime.
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Post by congokong on May 28, 2017 22:14:15 GMT
Kett cruisers were on their way so you could not save the people who were released from their pods. Remember during the mission the rescuers tell you that they are in a trance and not cooperating. Besides getting thousands out when cruisers are on their way is not happening. At best you maybe able to save 100 folks and still leave the facility standing. Angara do not have big ships left anymore, just small and fast shuttles like the ones you came in. So Jaal is a bloody idiot for even suggesting what he did then as logically that is by far the worst option. Remember the Kett are stranded in Heleus as well and that is their main exaltation facility. They do not have resources to build another one, even the one they had they used Angaran equipment in it just to build it. So either realistically save a 100 folk at best and end up leaving them their main production facility or you blow that facility up for good and seriously harm Kett efforts in the cluster. Thats why when you blow it up Kett stop bothering to capture people cause they cannot exalt that many anymore. Its why i was pissed that when we boarded the Archons's ship we did not plant a bomb or something to blow it up. Especially when Ryder agrees with Drack that they have to do whatever it takes to kill the Archon whenever they get that single chance. Yes. Jaal's conviction in sparing the base comes down to him being unwilling to accept the painful truth that those angara were already doomed (mostly). Check the codex afterwards. It makes it clear that many prisoners, like you said, were left behind. The Moshae believes their death is preferable to their near-inevitable exaltation. And, of course, exalted angara will claim even more angaran lives later. Jaal is so blinded by wanting to save the angara there that he even believes they can actually retake the base before the remaining angara get exalted. That's absurd. The angara never successfully infiltrated one of these bases, much less destroyed one, until now (with Ryder's help). They didn't even know exaltation existed! Even if they could retake it, how many more lives would it cost to retake the base after the kett bolster its defenses? To the OP, that's why the Moshae is upset. Yes, saving the angara is a more empathetic choice to angara specifically than destroying the base, with the latter being more directly beneficial to the Initiative. It's overshadowed in the Moshae's mind as she's a realist who sees you go against her wishes by passing up a major opportunity to cripple the kett. She's only wrong in that sparing the base implies not caring about her people, because it means you do care, just not in the way that practically matters.
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Post by decafhigh on May 29, 2017 5:39:20 GMT
I don't see how either choice in the end matters much. There is no way this is the ONLY exaltation facility they have. Their whole point in coming to Heleus was to exalt the whole cluster, they are really going to do it all from this one base? No, they would need bases like that all over the cluster. Taking down this one might slow them down in that region of Voeld, for the time being, but they would just route Angara from there to another facility.
This (exaltation) is what they do, they would have mastered the process of setting up and tearing down bases like this out of necessity over time as they exalted other species all across Andromeda.
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Post by PillarBiter on May 29, 2017 6:42:09 GMT
Dammit, I fell for Jaal's sentimentality...
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Post by djbare on May 29, 2017 7:05:45 GMT
Keep in mind the Angara philosophy regrading their war against the Kett, it boils down "Death before giving up anything to the Kett", all Angara apparently agree with this sentiment, I've noted a couple of dialogues relating to this; "Kett want to capture us alive, so we fight to the death"; "No one joins the resistance to stay safe"
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Post by tjmitchem on May 29, 2017 10:18:25 GMT
Keep in mind the Angara philosophy regrading their war against the Kett, it boils down "Death before giving up anything to the Kett", all Angara apparently agree with this sentiment, I've noted a couple of dialogues relating to this; "Kett want to capture us alive, so we fight to the death"; "No one joins the resistance to stay safe" Exactly. Right after we find Thaldyr, she dies of self-inflicted wounds because she didn't want the Kett to take her alive. That's pretty hardcore.
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Post by Reorte on May 29, 2017 11:25:22 GMT
Keep in mind the Angara philosophy regrading their war against the Kett, it boils down "Death before giving up anything to the Kett", all Angara apparently agree with this sentiment, I've noted a couple of dialogues relating to this; "Kett want to capture us alive, so we fight to the death"; "No one joins the resistance to stay safe" Is that the resistance philosophy or all angara?
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Post by djbare on May 29, 2017 12:17:44 GMT
Keep in mind the Angara philosophy regrading their war against the Kett, it boils down "Death before giving up anything to the Kett", all Angara apparently agree with this sentiment, I've noted a couple of dialogues relating to this; "Kett want to capture us alive, so we fight to the death"; "No one joins the resistance to stay safe" Is that the resistance philosophy or all angara? No, there is at least one I know of that hints slavery is preferable to death.
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Post by Exile Isan on May 29, 2017 18:43:06 GMT
I just wonder if Jaal argues to save them all because he hopes that his brother and sister-in-law are there. I mean they, along with his father, were all taken by the kett.
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Post by Psychedelic on May 29, 2017 20:39:02 GMT
I just wonder if Jaal argues to save them all because he hopes that his brother and sister-in-law are there. I mean they, along with his father, were all taken by the kett. I don't think so. Iirc his father was abducted when he was still a child, his brother and sister-in-law were probably taken years ago, nothing indicates it happened recently. They all would have been killed or exalted by now. I guess his emotional reaction was more due to his personality than any real hope to see his family members again. The Moshae on the other hand is more the analytical, rational type. She responds better to logic/professional replies than most angara and especially Jaal. I guess the purpose of the decision at the end was more to show contrasting personalities within the angaran race than to be about any strategical considerations.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2017 23:42:59 GMT
I don't see how either choice in the end matters much. There is no way this is the ONLY exaltation facility they have. Their whole point in coming to Heleus was to exalt the whole cluster, they are really going to do it all from this one base? No, they would need bases like that all over the cluster. Taking down this one might slow them down in that region of Voeld, for the time being, but they would just route Angara from there to another facility. This (exaltation) is what they do, they would have mastered the process of setting up and tearing down bases like this out of necessity over time as they exalted other species all across Andromeda. Seemed damn important to the Ascendant kett that basically begged you to not blow it up. That, if you ask me, is far more telling. I don't think it was for sentimental reasons. They don't seem sentimental at all. Logic dictates that if it were easy to rebuild and they didn't consider it a loss that kett would have laughed at you much the way the rest of the ascendants and Archon do right up until you fuck their shit up. If they had so many other facilities and it weren't about to be a huge loss them, that kett would not care. The argument would be much different, along the lines of 'go ahead and destroy it. You'll barely slow us down. We have more. We can build more. Blah blah blah' because that is basically what all the kett that speak any thing remotely intelligible do. Maybe they do have other facilities but I doubt they have many. The most important thing is that it's just one more way to slow them and beat them. If you are killing kett and they keep replacing them with relative ease, it is a never ending war that the kett can win (which they had been until you come along). If you keep killing troops and cut off a key supply for more troops, you have just shifted the things toward your favor. Any base you destroy is one less place they have to make more kett. And I kind of think that the collateral damage of angara dying actually works in your favor because they have to look through them to find ones to exalt. Plenty don't make the cut. You just indirectly took a good supply from them. More importantly, every angara I am sure would rather die than be exalted. You did them a favor in the long run. The resistance fighters will fight to the death so this is not entirely different. They'd been dead anyway, brainwashed to fight against their families.
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Post by decafhigh on May 29, 2017 23:56:52 GMT
And if we assume what you say is true its just one more point in the long list of how badly written the Kett were.
Either way the choice doesn't seem to have any impact in the long run aside from the Mosahe's responses to you immediately after. Does it impact a Jaal romance? Aside from that there is no difference in the outcomes.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 0:06:15 GMT
And if we assume what you say is true its just one more point in the long list of how badly written the Kett were. Either way the choice doesn't seem to have any impact in the long run aside from the Mosahe's responses to you immediately after. Does it impact a Jaal romance? Aside from that there is no difference in the outcomes. Agreed. Entirely agreed. Edit: But I will say it is one of the more interesting things to discuss about the writing or story. There's not much there for interesting and intelligent discussions. Oh how I miss the days of gazillion page long thread about logain - traitor or hero
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Post by Psychedelic on May 30, 2017 0:07:01 GMT
And if we assume what you say is true its just one more point in the long list of how badly written the Kett were. Either way the choice doesn't seem to have any impact in the long run aside from the Mosahe's responses to you immediately after. Does it impact a Jaal romance? Aside from that there is no difference in the outcomes. It's one of two events that can make a romance with Jaal impossible if you act against his wishes in both cases.
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Post by decafhigh on May 30, 2017 0:16:31 GMT
And if we assume what you say is true its just one more point in the long list of how badly written the Kett were. Either way the choice doesn't seem to have any impact in the long run aside from the Mosahe's responses to you immediately after. Does it impact a Jaal romance? Aside from that there is no difference in the outcomes. Agreed. Entirely agreed. Edit: But I will say it is one of the more interesting things to discuss about the writing or story. There's not much there for interesting and intelligent discussions. Oh how I miss the days of gazillion page long thread about logain - traitor or hero I dunno. As soon as they said "blow the base and the Angara die" it stopped becoming a choice to me. Whether the Kett can rebuild the base or not, whether they can do exaltation somewhere else or not, are all things beyond my/Ryder's control at that moment in time. All you really know for certain is, if you blow that base you are murdering hundreds of Angara. Not the Kett, not some exaltation machine, not some far off unknowable possibility, you right in that moment are killing those Angara. To me it wasn't even a choice. As far as how the Kett are written, I'm half expecting to find out the Archon's boss was Cobra Commander at this point. They are that bad. Edit: And I'm right there with you on Logain, and a number of choices from the older games. Especially DAO I had many times where I had to stop and consider what choices I really wanted to make.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 1:08:49 GMT
Agreed. Entirely agreed. Edit: But I will say it is one of the more interesting things to discuss about the writing or story. There's not much there for interesting and intelligent discussions. Oh how I miss the days of gazillion page long thread about logain - traitor or hero I dunno. As soon as they said "blow the base and the Angara die" it stopped becoming a choice to me. Whether the Kett can rebuild the base or not, whether they can do exaltation somewhere else or not, are all things beyond my/Ryder's control at that moment in time. All you really know for certain is, if you blow that base you are murdering hundreds of Angara. Not the Kett, not some exaltation machine, not some far off unknowable possibility, you right in that moment are killing those Angara. To me it wasn't even a choice. As far as how the Kett are written, I'm half expecting to find out the Archon's boss was Cobra Commander at this point. They are that bad. Edit: And I'm right there with you on Logain, and a number of choices from the older games. Especially DAO I had many times where I had to stop and consider what choices I really wanted to make. Yeah to me it wasn't even a choice either. Destroy the base. I saw no logic in saving a bunch of angara when a bunch more could fill it up all over again. I'm not killing them. I'm destroying the base. Smart call to me and for me, but definitely not to and for others which I understand. The one time I don't do it I regret it. That's how certain I am it's the right choice for me. Codex said they only save a few anyway. So a few die to destroy an exaltation facility that likely exalted thousands and would continue to do that. I am in control. I care about the survival of all species and long term survival. That base must go. I do really like that there is one choice that can be debated and people feel very strongly about.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 30, 2017 1:13:41 GMT
It's essentially the Collector base decision all over again, thankfully without a "won't let fear change me" line as its capper.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 1:18:56 GMT
It's essentially the Collector base decision all over again, thankfully without a "won't let fear change me" line as its capper. But in that one, I really thought saving it would be wise because perhaps a way to fight them could be gleaned from study of it. However, they use that against you. Granted in Tim's hands should have been the warning but I still felt at that point that he might actually want to save people, at least humanity. I didn't think he was so power mad that he would not really give a damn about them at all which we learn is pretty much the case in the end of ME3.
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