timebean
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It's just a game, folks...
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
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It's just a game, folks...
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Post by timebean on Jun 1, 2017 14:03:28 GMT
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Post by Psychevore on Jun 1, 2017 15:24:23 GMT
I won't answer for vonuber, as he is quite capable and I thought his post was outstanding! My analysis is based on, wait for it.... Analysis. Academic analysis, on my own as a young child through my BA in Phil and minor in World Religion. Infinite regress is a big problem for me, but the Jolly Jesus in the Clouds is a bigger one. As an agnostic always teetering on hard atheism, I will say that I base my lack of faith in man-made religion on sound analysis of all data available to me. The logical inconsistencies of Abrahamic religions and their texts, practices and voodoo, as well as their earthly corruption, make a bad joke out of organized religion, and New Age Mysticism is hokey as fuck. So, that leaves a very small path to being a rational "believer". That path for me, is this: If God exists, it is nothing like us, doesn't care for us individually, and is truly beyond knowing in this life. Therefore, live right because it feels good, or dick off because it feels good, and never fear eternal damnation or feel secure in hallowed gates. The punishment of this life, is this life. I never considered infinite regression as a strong argument supporting the existence of a creator. I think trying to proof his existence or non-existence is actually a waste of time, all we can get is clues. A strong one is the improbability of getting such perfect conditions at the beginning of the universe (modify marginally a single parameter and everything collapses). One can still think that the hazard did well and that our universe won the lotery (multiples times in a row in fact, given how low the probability is), but the hypothesis of an intention behind the Big Bang is actually way more elegant. There are indeed contradictions inside our religions, but this doesn't mean nothing is true in what they teach. There are also huge discrepancies in the diffrent cosmological theories nowadays. Does it make physics "bollocks" as a whole ? Nope. As for Jesus, why wouldn't he be jolly ? A man with such a strong faith is certainly a jovial guy... "Cloud" is a caricature, nowadays believers are aware that the "sky" or "heaven" refers to a parallel dimension outside materiality, not to something above us. Concerning God, I think the exact opposite, but explaining why would be too long. I do agree though that there's no punishment or reward. Life is the gift.
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Post by vonuber on Jun 1, 2017 15:28:31 GMT
Don't really want to get involved in this (my thoughts are clear in the second post) but it always strikes me as amusing that people are so quick to claim things like fluffy bunnies and unicorns being evidence of God, but not this: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrotizing_fasciitisOdd that.
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Post by griffith82 on Jun 1, 2017 18:14:26 GMT
Interesting that this thread is still alive. I was sure everyone would have eaten each other alive already.
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 1, 2017 18:54:55 GMT
Uh Dragon Age has religion.
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Post by abaris on Jun 1, 2017 19:02:09 GMT
Uh Dragon Age has religion. Not real ones. So there's no real angle to bitch and moan about it. But DA attracts a different crowd of bitching and moaning. Of course self declared anti SJW warriors are attracted as well as politcial nutjobs. The nuttiest thing I had to read concerning DAI was something about feeding and clothing refugees was a socialist agenda. Problem is, it wasn't meant as satire.
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 1, 2017 19:06:10 GMT
Uh Dragon Age has religion. Not real ones. So there's no real angle to bitch and moan about it. But DA attracts a different crowd of bitching and moaning. Of course self declared anti SJW warriors are attracted as well as politcial nutjobs. The nuttiest thing I had to read concerning DAI was something about feeding and clothing refugees was a socialist agenda. Problem is, it wasn't meant as satire. Let the babies have their bottles.
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 1, 2017 19:36:12 GMT
I never considered infinite regression as a strong argument supporting the existence of a creator. I think trying to proof his existence or non-existence is actually a waste of time, all we can get is clues. A strong one is the improbability of getting such perfect conditions at the beginning of the universe (modify marginally a single parameter and everything collapses). One can still think that the hazard did well and that our universe won the lotery (multiples times in a row in fact, given how low the probability is), but the hypothesis of an intention behind the Big Bang is actually way more elegant. There are indeed contradictions inside our religions, but this doesn't mean nothing is true in what they teach. There are also huge discrepancies in the diffrent cosmological theories nowadays. Does it make physics "bollocks" as a whole ? Nope. As for Jesus, why wouldn't he be jolly ? A man with such a strong faith is certainly a jovial guy... "Cloud" is a caricature, nowadays believers are aware that the "sky" or "heaven" refers to a parallel dimension outside materiality, not to something above us. Concerning God, I think the exact opposite, but explaining why would be too long. I do agree though that there's no punishment or reward. Life is the gift. Sean Carroll is a stud. His blog is really good too, and he's usually pretty active replying and interacting with commentors (or at least he used to be).
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Post by voltangclan on Jun 1, 2017 20:36:26 GMT
Interesting that this thread is still alive. I was sure everyone would have eaten each other alive already. Junk food is bad for you.
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mmoblitz
N3
USN-Retired
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: mmoblitz
PSN: NotPC
Posts: 515 Likes: 590
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Post by mmoblitz on Jun 1, 2017 20:53:53 GMT
I asked this because in Mass Effect Shepard could be religious. In Andromeda Ryder can't be. You have to tell Suvi either she is delusional for having faith (which she gleeful agrees to) or say that god is a robot which she is happy with. You can't believe in heaven you can only refuse to believe your mom's soul is lost. Shepard is also analogous for Jesus while Andromeda's main bad guys are the religious aliens, and no humans have faith except Suvi who isn't like any religion in earth. Why does the new team just not want us to be able to choose? I don't expect them to be as straightforward as mass effect but I hate that we just don't get the choice and they don't allow us to be religious, and at the same time make the game itself talk down religion. I have seen lots of discussion about this and other parts of the Bioware agenda (some say Hudson wanted a religious story and now Bioware is over compensation) as part of the bigger discussion on Bioware political agenda (there are links to devs making supposedly hateful comments to men but they are men, so idk.) some people go as far as to say the women in the game don't look like waifus means that Bioware wants to support she's because she's don't like traditional women (which is offensive on SJW part too when they are the ones who don't want to be offensive) so all of that is a mess on both sides and we should keep it out of this topic please! I just wanted to discuss one particular issue. I get where your coming from OP. I see where you might think Bioware is slighting Christianity. Now days its seems as though it's constantly under attack. As much as I dislike MEA I think they handled it alright without getting to specific for any religion which could be conceived as they are catering to atheists. The dialog choice when talking with Suvi is yes, you believe in God or No, you don't. However, like most of the game, what he/she actually says is a bit cryptic. The dialog is like that throughout the game. One of my biggest complaints about this game is the writing.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 1, 2017 21:05:52 GMT
Attack? I thought the thing happening to Christianity was, at worst, a wave of indifference.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 1, 2017 21:12:23 GMT
Attack? I thought the thing happening to Christianity was, at worst, a wave of indifference. Maybe "attack" in this context is more along the lines of Paul Anka's avenue of attack against the billboards.
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simit
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Chris2k30
PSN: Simit2k30
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Post by simit on Jun 1, 2017 21:13:57 GMT
ohhh fur francis drake
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VanSinn
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: VanSinn77
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Post by VanSinn on Jun 1, 2017 22:41:10 GMT
Ok, I haven't read the whole thread, and I can't be assed to read the last 10 pages, but this is such a load of crock it isn't funny. OP is completely missing the point of that scene.
In no way does Ryder admit that God is finite and mortal there. Ryder was telling Suvi that this doesn't change anything. There's still no proof for or against a God, so her faith doesn't need to change. Suvi then says the line about deluding herself, which in a way is what faith is. It's a belief in something that's unprovable. "Deluding" is perhaps the wrong word there, since it means to trick, to fool, to deceive, but faith is essentially CHOOSING to believe something when there's no evidence to support it.
Suvi had a crisis of faith, and questioned her beliefs. In the end, she realized that she'd hafta choose to continue believing in the absence of evidence, and she finds comfort in the fact that she's questioned, had doubts, but is choosing to believe anyway.
I'm a religious person, subscribing more-or-less to Christian ideals, but there are things about Christianity (as it is formally worshiped) that I question and have doubts about. I choose to believe how I believe. I've rationally looked at things, and there is a part of me that just cannot accept that there isn't a God. I know, 100% for certain, that I'll never be able to prove my beliefs, and since I cannot do so, I'll never try to force or convince someone else to believe how I do (I'll talk about it gladly to those who want to though!) I take the same sort of comfort in knowing that my beliefs were not accepted blindly because I was told to think this way. Instead, I came to these beliefs through questioning, through doubts, and through thinking critically about certain aspects of things. So I understand exactly what Suvi was saying here, and it wasn't that God is definitely finite, mortal and fallible. That was her questioning her beliefs, until she decided to believe in an infinite, immortal, infallible Creator anyway.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Jun 1, 2017 22:47:25 GMT
Bioware can't tackle these themes anymore, too much bias here and there. Not that I mind, I'm not religious myself. As it is, anything can be turned into a controvery today. The SJW agenda bitching and moaning before the game even was released, sexual orientation or gender identity. Religion and politics too, of course. I get the impression that some people would like games with the blandest plot, the blandest set of characters. Or they would like games playing to their very own prejudices or ingrained believes. Rule of thumb, if every group, having some kind of real life agenda, is bitching and moaning over certain aspects of the game, the company has done something right, since satisfying even one of these pressure groups would be exclusive to any other group of players or the ones just wanting to have fun. The ones not going around looking for any perceived social, political or religious hints because they are quite comfortable with all of them. I was generally talking about Bioware's current lack of man quality to handle it, but I see what you're saying.
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Post by setokaiba on Jun 2, 2017 0:12:34 GMT
None of this would be a problem if you heathens worship our true lord The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Jun 2, 2017 0:23:09 GMT
Imagine the uproar if..... They put religion as the main focus of Andromeda. They sided for or against the Trump Administration. Had only one gender or orientation to be represented in the game.
Simple reason for these not being the case or the religious ambiguity is like with all other things Bioware was again trying to play it safe.
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R'Shara
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by R'Shara on Jun 2, 2017 2:27:58 GMT
Imagine the uproar if..... They put religion as the main focus of Andromeda. They sided for or against the Trump Administration. Had only one gender or orientation to be represented in the game. Simple reason for these not being the case or the religious ambiguity is like with all other things Bioware was again trying to play it safe. Which really isn't a bad thing for those topics.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 2, 2017 2:49:21 GMT
Agreed. What's the upside of going deeper here?
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 2, 2017 2:58:31 GMT
Imagine the uproar if..... They put religion as the main focus of Andromeda. They sided for or against the Trump Administration. Had only one gender or orientation to be represented in the game. Simple reason for these not being the case or the religious ambiguity is like with all other things Bioware was again trying to play it safe. I assume this is supposed to be a criticism against BioWare for playing it safe, but this is certainly an odd list. Like, why the frak would religion be the main focus in a space opera setting where zero supernatural phenomena takes place? Why would Trump matter hundreds of years in the future (at least before his fuckery reaches critical mass)? I will say, it's quite something to think that representing only one gender or orientation would now be considered risky. What a time to be alive.
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kalasaurus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by kalasaurus on Jun 2, 2017 3:13:09 GMT
Keeping in mind that religions change, form, and break into sects over time. Mass Effect 1 takes place in 2183. Yes, some have been around for thousands of years, but the discovery of the Prothean artifacts on Mars (in 2148*) greatly affected people's religions as many tried to incorporate this into their beliefs. It was a huge discovery that turned peoples' worlds upside down. The religious beliefs of Mass Effect are not the religions we know now.
*Checked for date on the ME Wiki.
(Just pointing out what the lore says on this matter, and why Bioware may have decided to keep this ambiguous to roleplay/headcanon as you see fit.)
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 2, 2017 4:05:58 GMT
Keeping in mind that religions change, form, and break into sects over time. Mass Effect 1 takes place in 2183. Yes, some have been around for thousands of years, but the discovery of the Prothean artifacts on Mars (in 2148*) greatly affected people's religions as many tried to incorporate this into their beliefs. It was a huge discovery that turned peoples' worlds upside down. The religious beliefs of Mass Effect are not the religions we know now. *Checked for date on the ME Wiki. (Just pointing out what the lore says on this matter, and why Bioware may have decided to keep this ambiguous to roleplay/headcanon as you see fit.) I said that many pages ago....and then a derailed this topic many pages ago....
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kalasaurus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by kalasaurus on Jun 2, 2017 4:11:55 GMT
Keeping in mind that religions change, form, and break into sects over time. Mass Effect 1 takes place in 2183. Yes, some have been around for thousands of years, but the discovery of the Prothean artifacts on Mars (in 2148*) greatly affected people's religions as many tried to incorporate this into their beliefs. It was a huge discovery that turned peoples' worlds upside down. The religious beliefs of Mass Effect are not the religions we know now. *Checked for date on the ME Wiki. (Just pointing out what the lore says on this matter, and why Bioware may have decided to keep this ambiguous to roleplay/headcanon as you see fit.) I said that many pages ago....and then a derailed this topic many pages ago.... Oh jeez. Not my intent here. Here's a gif for distraction.
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 2, 2017 4:15:31 GMT
I said that many pages ago....and then a derailed this topic many pages ago.... Oh jeez. Not my intent here. Here's a gif for distraction. "Holy f--king s--t, " "It's a dinosaur " "Holy s--t" "What the f--k?!"
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kalasaurus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 519 Likes: 1,171
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Post by kalasaurus on Jun 2, 2017 4:17:01 GMT
Oh jeez. Not my intent here. Here's a gif for distraction. "Holy f--king s--t, " "It's a dinosaur " "Holy s--t" "What the f--k?!"
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