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Post by shechinah on Jul 12, 2017 18:16:23 GMT
Bianca is deeply hated among the fandom it would be a risky move. Plus Scout Harding will probably fill the place of dwarven archer in DA4 Wow, really? I wasn't aware of that. I don't follow the DA comics/books -- did something happen that I obviously wasn't aware of?
For me, it is entirely her depiction in Inquisition and here is a lengthy post that explains why in decent detail. I'll spoiler tag it for those that are not interested in it. I hate Bianca because the little cow had the gall to threaten me after it was revealed she unintentionally gave Corypheus access to red lyrium. Excuse me? If Varric dies, it'll be from one of the monsters you unleashed on Thedas, you arrogant bitch. The fact that she's a Mary Sue just sweetens the pot. I'd actually liked most DA characters up until that point. Bianca was the first major non-villainous character I really developed a distaste for. I was indifferent to Bianca until she made a graphic threat towards the Inquisitor prompted by nothing on the Inquisitor's part and I was provided with no option to have my character respond. I seldom hate a Dragon Age character: at worst, I'm indifferent but Bianca's passing remark moved me from unimpressed with her to outright disliking her. It's not that I want an option to murder knife or something but not being able to respond to a direct threat in some way was very aggravating. No option to look unimpressed by it, no option to express anger at it or assure her. Nothing. Additionally, Varric himself volunteered for the Inquisition and all the dangers that involved. The Inquisitor had the option of joining the Inquisition or leaving and facing the very likely fate of mob "justice" or mock trial. Varric wasn't forced into the Inquisition in any way. So to Bianca, it's fine when Varric chooses to risk his life for reasons related to her but not when Varric chooses to risk his life for other reasons like the world. She could focus her impotent threat on the people who are actively threatening Varric and the world like, you know, Corypheus and his forces but no, direct the threat towards the person trying to stop Corypheus and his forces. You know, the person who helps keep Varric safe on the battlefield because they actively engage said battlefield. Way to use your alleged smarts, Bianca. There's just something about it all that makes me see Bianca as self-centered. I can deal with self-centered characters: I dealt with Morrigan and I like Morrigan but that's because I can respond to Morrigan. I think it would have been a lot easier to forget about if it wasn't because I kept getting met elsewhere by the assumption that I would have been fine with it and thought it was sweet if Bianca was a man or the love interest of my character. That assumption is persistent and it can shove it. When it comes to stories, I've always disliked the times where it's suppose to be sweet when a love interest of someone makes an unwarranted threat towards someone else who has done nothing to deserve it and in some cases, has done more to actually keep the significant other of the person safe. It does not make them look sweet, protective or worried: it makes them look like an immature asshole. If they're worried then, again, they're just taking out on someone that doesn't deserve it. It's even worse when it's treated like this badass moment. It's the same with the assumption that I only have a problem with Bianca because I wanted Varric to be a romance option. Oh, you only dislike this character because you ship another character with someone else! That's also the only reason why you dislike a ship! There can't possibly be another reason like, you know, characterization! Those assumptions can shove it right up alongside the first one. And I'm done. I took that "threat" as a "Aw, she really does care for Varric" moment rather than something she genuinely meant. Honestly, I was rather surprised when I came to the forums and found people taking such offense to her statement which she clearly said out of worry and concern. I can see why people didn't like what Bianca said, but it feels like such an overreaction to hate her entire character just because of that one line. When Isabela threatened to castrate me if I ever hurt Merrill in DA2, I took it in stride. We were (sort of) friends, we'd fought together and Isabela had nothing to make up for, at least at that point in the game. (This was prior to the Tome of Koslun reveal.) Bianca, on the other hand, had just revealed she helped Corypheus unleash red lyrium on Thedas, a mistake led to the deaths of untold thousands. Varric and Hawke were also partially responsible for bringing red lyrium to Thedas, but unlike Bianca, they didn't try to hide their role and were actively trying to make up for their involvement. Bianca thinks just closing one passage is enough to absolve her of any further guilt. And then she threatens the one person who can actually defeat Corypheus and fix her goddamn mistake. As Shecinah said, I'm the one keeping Varric alive on the battlefield. How about directing your wrath at the Tevinter cultists and Red Templars trying to kill him? I think I remember liking *her in the pre-Inquisition comic. For those curious, here is a link to the pages featuring Bianca as she appears in a pre-Inquisition comic: sirianhewigv.tumblr.com/post/162121037077/dragon-age-until-we-sleep-02-2013 Note: it should be noted that the Bianca in the comic was, I think, a Fade version based on Varric's memories of her and likely influenced by his perception of her. Editing note: added thats1evildude's post because it touches on something because it nicely touches on something that I forgot.
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 13, 2017 20:14:07 GMT
Wow, really? I wasn't aware of that. I don't follow the DA comics/books -- did something happen that I obviously wasn't aware of? Mostly recoil, I think. The whole thing where the fantasy is always better than the reality. Bianca is built up to be this person who's really special to Varric, whose whole tale is worth telling, but which can't be due to very heart-rending reasons and stuff. Oh and she has some sort of mysterious connection to his crossbow, but which he won't actually tell anyone. Then she shows up, she's an extremely cut-and-dry archetypal "tough" woman with sassy one-liners and a "tough" parting line to remind you how "tough" she is. The whole backstory is just that she married some other guy, and the reason for the name is that she invented it but he doesn't want people to think she invented it. Basically, she goes from a tale too grand to tell, to a tale too plain to tell. It is, perhaps, realistic, but not very entertaining. I think a lot of fans enjoyed the mystique of her character more than her actual character, and really never wanted the actual character over the mystique anyway. And thus, disappointment grew into contempt. Personally, I think the main reason Bianca is hated is more how her interactions rob player agency, rather than her actual actions and personality. Time and time again people will complain more about how they couldn't personally kill or judge Bianca at Skyhold* and had to take her threats, over her actual incompetence at allowing Corypheus access to red lyrium and lack enough remorse in their eyes**. Legitimate complaints, as I will always favor player choice. But I do find it telling that many of those same players defend characters who are guilty of worse (like Solas) simply because the player could affect them and/or the character displayed "proper" PC deference***.
* I would have liked these options. I also would have supported Varric turning on you if you took them.
**YMMV on exactly how culpable Bianca actually is; I mean, you really expect her to be able to spot check a body surfing ancient Tevinter darkspawn Magister? Varric didn't know so he couldn't have told her, and don't give me that whole meta-gaming "it was obvious to the player" nonsense. The fact that we even have Well, Shit is proof that Bianca does have remorse, even if she's being a jerk about it.
***Another thing about people who call Bianca a Mary Sue; exactly two characters shill her, Varric and Bianca herself, neither of which are objective.
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Post by roselavellan on Jul 13, 2017 22:35:38 GMT
Personally, I think the main reason Bianca is hated is more how her interactions rob player agency, rather than her actual actions and personality. Time and time again people will complain more about how they couldn't personally kill or judge Bianca at Skyhold* and had to take her threats, over her actual incompetence at allowing Corypheus access to red lyrium and lack enough remorse in their eyes**. Legitimate complaints, as I will always favor player choice. But I do find it telling that many of those same players defend characters who are guilty of worse (like Solas)simply because the player could affect them and/or the character displayed "proper" PC deference***.
I don't blame her for what happened with Corypheus, I understand that people make mistakes. I do fault her for: - her ridiculous attitude of self-entitlement; - her lack of self-awareness; and - her abrasive rudeness. I don't like deference (we are all equals here, are we not, trying to do our best for Thedas?), but I do expect civility. She should stop talking like a middle-school bully if she wants any respect.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 13, 2017 23:06:43 GMT
Personally, I think the main reason Bianca is hated is more how her interactions rob player agency, rather than her actual actions and personality. Time and time again people will complain more about how they couldn't personally kill or judge Bianca at Skyhold* and had to take her threats, over her actual incompetence at allowing Corypheus access to red lyrium and lack enough remorse in their eyes**. Legitimate complaints, as I will always favor player choice. But I do find it telling that many of those same players defend characters who are guilty of worse (like Solas)simply because the player could affect them and/or the character displayed "proper" PC deference***.
I don't blame her for what happened with Corypheus, I understand that people make mistakes. I do fault her for: - her ridiculous attitude of self-entitlement; - her lack of self-awareness; and - her abrasive rudeness. I don't like deference (we are all equals here, are we not, trying to do our best for Thedas?), but I do expect civility. She should stop talking like a middle-school bully if she wants any respect. Meh, I personally didn't consider her threat as anything other than over the top way to express her feelings... which I suspect she has problems communicating in the first place. I mean... what can she do? She may be a genius inventor, but she threatens one of the most powerful people in Thedas, that are badass enough to kill literally a dozen of dragons and challenge ancient darkspawn threat that tries to overtake the South with dark schemes and a massive army of horrors. The Inquisitor may at best just look at her and borrow Sera's "pbfhhhh". I also don't think she's not self aware - she might have not done it the way I approve, but she did try and fix her mistakes and does make a good point about acting instead of wallowing in self-pity. As for why we don't have an option to judge her (what exactly could we judge her for? Should we judge Varric/Hawke for releasing Corypheus or bringing red lyrium on the surface too?)... potential plot armor. Both her and Varric can't be killed and they end up in the same spot in the narrative, so it's possible that they'd both return. It's especially possible that she'd return if Inquisitor comes back and needs a fancy prosthetic hand or its maintenance.
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Post by Pon.ee on Jul 13, 2017 23:27:27 GMT
I hope we meet some dwarves from Kal Sharok. I had my nose stuck in the World of Thedas books recently and came across a codex entry I thought was pretty interesting. My approach was carefully observed. This was not a thaig unused to watching its boundaries. I got the impression that if I'd been one of his Orzammar cousins, our meeting would've been swift and bloody. That is, if I'd been allowed to find the passage at all. As it was, he was polite and efficient, and he knew well the current market for everything he offered. Clearly their isolation is not because of fear, and certainly not disinterest. Among his wares, I saw the latest fabrics of Val Royeaux and volumes by a Free Marcher poet three centuries dead. This only added to my doubt of the official year of Kal-Sharok's "rediscovery" as declared by the Assembly of Orzammar. I didn't mention this to my host. As curious as I was, there was an undercurrent I found unsettling. I must stress that he and his helpers were professional and honest throughout. But there was something I can't describe. While he remained hooded the entire time, he looked me square in the eye when our deal was struck, unashamed.
I lived through a time of Blights. I've felt the gaze of a Grey Warden and seen the corruption of his prey. Why I remembered both in that moment, I still can't explain. —On meeting Novas Sturhald in Kal-Sharok, excerpted from the journals of Ser Evrain Abernache, noble merchant-scholar Perhaps the Kal Sharok dwarves have re-established contact with a Titan? The book mentions they're secretive not wanting people to know what lengths they've gone to to survive. I mean everyone thought they were dead and gone. The comparison to the wardens though, maybe we might see some blighted red lyrium here? Kal Sharok is real close to Minrathous, so if DA4 is set in Tevinter I defo want to see more of the dwarves ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png)
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Post by roselavellan on Jul 13, 2017 23:41:29 GMT
I also don't think she's not self aware - she might have not done it the way I approve, but she did try and fix her mistakes and does make a good point about acting instead of wallowing in self-pity. My reference to self-awareness was about her hypocrisy and self-entitlement. She has caused Varric more pain than anyone (with the exception of Bartrand) - you can see that in his facial expressions, as well as the comic shechinah referenced above - yet she thinks she is within her right to accuse and threaten the Inquisitor, who has done nothing but befriend Varric and try to help him. It's really quite surreal to me. Perhaps she has "problems communicating" as you say, I think it's more likely she's just self-absorbed and self-entitled. So with all that... I don't think she deserves to be punished, but I don't think she deserves to be given the time of day either. Any issues requiring mechanical expertise can be handled by Dagna.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 13, 2017 23:47:56 GMT
I hope we meet some dwarves from Kal Sharok. I had my nose stuck in the World of Thedas books recently and came across a codex entry I thought was pretty interesting. My approach was carefully observed. This was not a thaig unused to watching its boundaries. I got the impression that if I'd been one of his Orzammar cousins, our meeting would've been swift and bloody. That is, if I'd been allowed to find the passage at all. As it was, he was polite and efficient, and he knew well the current market for everything he offered. Clearly their isolation is not because of fear, and certainly not disinterest. Among his wares, I saw the latest fabrics of Val Royeaux and volumes by a Free Marcher poet three centuries dead. This only added to my doubt of the official year of Kal-Sharok's "rediscovery" as declared by the Assembly of Orzammar. I didn't mention this to my host. As curious as I was, there was an undercurrent I found unsettling. I must stress that he and his helpers were professional and honest throughout. But there was something I can't describe. While he remained hooded the entire time, he looked me square in the eye when our deal was struck, unashamed.
I lived through a time of Blights. I've felt the gaze of a Grey Warden and seen the corruption of his prey. Why I remembered both in that moment, I still can't explain. —On meeting Novas Sturhald in Kal-Sharok, excerpted from the journals of Ser Evrain Abernache, noble merchant-scholar Perhaps the Kal Sharok dwarves have re-established contact with a Titan? The book mentions they're secretive not wanting people to know what lengths they've gone to to survive. I mean everyone thought they were dead and gone. The comparison to the wardens though, maybe we might see some blighted red lyrium here? The highlighted passage beats us in the face with "oy, oy, oy! They resemble Grey Wardens and darkspawn!", so I'd say that the dwarves of Kal Sharok having their own version of Joining is more probable than them re-establishing connection with Titan. The only dwarf we know so far that seems to have truly re-established connection with Titans is Valta and she neither resembled Grey Wardens (Warden dwarves don't suddenly gain magical powers) or darkspawn. And now that I think about it... maybe Kal-Sharok dwarves is what Alexis Kennedy is writing about? They are fairly separated from the world, their proximity to Blight means there's a lot of potential material for heavy stories tinged with horror and uneasiness... they're also underground, kinda like underground sea in Sunless Sea ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/CeRUIfXurYhaBmWjMBkt.png)
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 14, 2017 0:00:14 GMT
I also don't think she's not self aware - she might have not done it the way I approve, but she did try and fix her mistakes and does make a good point about acting instead of wallowing in self-pity. My reference to self-awareness was about her hypocrisy and self-entitlement. She has caused Varric more pain than anyone (with the exception of Bartrand) - you can see that in his facial expressions, as well as the comic shechinah referenced above - yet she thinks she is within her right to accuse and threaten the Inquisitor, who has done nothing but befriend Varric and try to help him. It's really quite surreal to me. Perhaps she has "problems communicating" as you say, I think it's more likely she's just self-absorbed and self-entitled. So with all that... I don't think she deserves to be punished, but I don't think she deserves to be given the time of day either. I simply don't see that. I think it's going a bit far to accuse her of lack of self-awareness when it comes to her hurting Varric is going a bit too far (especially with how that scene went). I genuinely think that Bianca has issues with expressing herself or her feelings. It's a trait fairly frequently attached to geniuses, even IRL. Many of them are noted to have complicated, difficult characters (*cough*with Solas in that category*cough*). Two brilliant minds are are better than one - even more so when we're going against a threat that has unfair advantage in shape of ancient magic and knowledge. I'd like to point out that Dagna might have all she needs in Skyhold, but she appears to working mostly alone and predominantly in field of magical research, enchants and improvements to designs. Bianca on the other hand has a big workshop in Val Royeaux, with nearly a hundred of smiths employed full-time (info from WOT2). Her family's strong position in Merchant Guild (compared to Varric's strained one) also can't hurt.
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Post by roselavellan on Jul 14, 2017 0:46:53 GMT
I simply don't see that. I think it's going a bit far to accuse her of lack of self-awareness when it comes to her hurting Varric is going a bit too far (especially with how that scene went). I genuinely think that Bianca has issues with expressing herself or her feelings. It's a trait fairly frequently attached to geniuses, even IRL. Many of them are noted to have complicated, difficult characters (*cough*with Solas in that category*cough*). Lol, Solas has faults, but he doesn't shy from self-reflection at least. In his banter with Rainier he realises his hypocrisy pretty quickly, without having to be prompted. I know what you mean about geniuses and their difficulty with expression, but that doesn't really preclude my point that she lacks self-awareness. She could have problems communicating AND lack self-awareness. Or perhaps she is self-aware but shameless about her self-entitlement... In any case, since this is about her threat about Varric and the implication that she wants to be protective of him, I would say that if Bianca actually cared for Varric, then she should look at her own actions before threatening the Inquisitor. Regarding her skill set and network, ok point taken. I will be happy to work with her... through the war table.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 14, 2017 1:10:33 GMT
I simply don't see that. I think it's going a bit far to accuse her of lack of self-awareness when it comes to her hurting Varric is going a bit too far (especially with how that scene went). I genuinely think that Bianca has issues with expressing herself or her feelings. It's a trait fairly frequently attached to geniuses, even IRL. Many of them are noted to have complicated, difficult characters (*cough*with Solas in that category*cough*). Lol, Solas has faults, but he doesn't shy from self-reflection at least. In his banter with Rainier he realises his hypocrisy pretty quickly, without having to be prompted. I know what you mean about geniuses and their difficulty with expression, but that doesn't really preclude my point that she lacks self-awareness. She could have problems communicating AND lack self-awareness. Or perhaps she is self-aware but shameless about her self-entitlement... In any case, since this is about her threat about Varric and the implication that she wants to be protective of him, I would say that if Bianca actually cared for Varric, then she should look at her own actions before threatening the Inquisitor. I wasn't meaning to imply that So las and Bianca share their faults in exact proportions - only that they have their own set of them, some of them stemming from their own brilliance/self-assuredness. I'm also unsure it's fair to say she was unaware of her faults, when it was obvious that she hid the fact that she was the one who leaked the location of red lyrium source - Inquisitor can even point out that she must've known they'd eventually figure it out... So, it must've meant she was ashamed of it. She also wasn't really defending herself when confronted with all this, merely being adamant that she preferred doing something instead of leaving it as it is and not confronting her mistakes. In fact, if she left it as it was, neither Varric nor Inquisitor would've likely ever have known that she had any part in this - yet, despite being aware how it'd end, after finding out what happened she immediately sought help from Inquisition. She just left the most sour detail out till the end... in that regard it's hard not to see some comparisons with Solavellan
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Post by phoray on Jul 14, 2017 1:52:08 GMT
I don't blame her for what happened with Corypheus, I understand that people make mistakes. I do fault her for: - her ridiculous attitude of self-entitlement; - her lack of self-awareness; and - her abrasive rudeness. I don't like deference (we are all equals here, are we not, trying to do our best for Thedas?), but I do expect civility. She should stop talking like a middle-school bully if she wants any respect. Meh, I personally didn't consider her threat as anything other than over the top way to express her feelings... which I suspect she has problems communicating in the first place. I mean... what can she do? She may be a genius inventor, but she threatens one of the most powerful people in Thedas, that are badass enough to kill literally a dozen of dragons and challenge ancient darkspawn threat that tries to overtake the South with dark schemes and a massive army of horrors. The Inquisitor may at best just look at her and borrow Sera's "pbfhhhh". I also don't think she's not self aware - she might have not done it the way I approve , but she did try and fix her mistakes and does make a good point about acting instead of wallowing in self-pity.
As for why we don't have an option to judge her (what exactly could we judge her for? Should we judge Varric/Hawke for releasing Corypheus or bringing red lyrium on the surface too?)... potential plot armor. Both her and Varric can't be killed and they end up in the same spot in the narrative, so it's possible that they'd both return. It's especially possible that she'd return if Inquisitor comes back and needs a fancy prosthetic hand or its maintenance. Bolded part. Which is a other part I dislike about her. From my perspective, Varric has HAD a life, in Kirkwall, for ten years with my Hawke. Now he's been having a life in HAven/Skyhold, righting the wrongs and dangers of the world with the Inquisitor. He didn't hesitate to volunteer even BEFORE he knew about Cory. HE's been writing POPULAR books. HE has a career he ENJOYS. And she has the audacity to imply that he's laying around NOT living life because he hasn't-what? Hasn't gone off and gotten married to show he's REALLY over her? I mean, how is he NOT living his life? He's living an amazing life- amazing lives don't always involve Grand sweeping romance or a pile of children. She's just so gosh darn dislikable.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 14, 2017 2:07:20 GMT
Meh, I personally didn't consider her threat as anything other than over the top way to express her feelings... which I suspect she has problems communicating in the first place. I mean... what can she do? She may be a genius inventor, but she threatens one of the most powerful people in Thedas, that are badass enough to kill literally a dozen of dragons and challenge ancient darkspawn threat that tries to overtake the South with dark schemes and a massive army of horrors. The Inquisitor may at best just look at her and borrow Sera's "pbfhhhh". I also don't think she's not self aware - she might have not done it the way I approve , but she did try and fix her mistakes and does make a good point about acting instead of wallowing in self-pity.
As for why we don't have an option to judge her (what exactly could we judge her for? Should we judge Varric/Hawke for releasing Corypheus or bringing red lyrium on the surface too?)... potential plot armor. Both her and Varric can't be killed and they end up in the same spot in the narrative, so it's possible that they'd both return. It's especially possible that she'd return if Inquisitor comes back and needs a fancy prosthetic hand or its maintenance. Bolded part. Which is a other part I dislike about her. From my perspective, Varric has HAD a life, in Kirkwall, for ten years with my Hawke. Now he's been having a life in HAven/Skyhold, righting the wrongs and dangers of the world with the Inquisitor. He didn't hesitate to volunteer even BEFORE he knew about Cory. HE's been writing POPULAR books. HE has a career he ENJOYS. And she has the audacity to imply that he's laying around NOT living life because he hasn't-what? Hasn't gone off and gotten married to show he's REALLY over her? I mean, how is he NOT living his life? He's living an amazing life- amazing lives don't always involve Grand sweeping romance or a pile of children. She's just so gosh darn dislikable. ... I think you might have taken it a bit too far than it was intended. And I don't think anybody said anything about marriage or pile of children, especially given what was said of Bianca's arranged marriage
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Post by phoray on Jul 14, 2017 2:40:19 GMT
Bolded part. Which is a other part I dislike about her. From my perspective, Varric has HAD a life, in Kirkwall, for ten years with my Hawke. Now he's been having a life in HAven/Skyhold, righting the wrongs and dangers of the world with the Inquisitor. He didn't hesitate to volunteer even BEFORE he knew about Cory. HE's been writing POPULAR books. HE has a career he ENJOYS. And she has the audacity to imply that he's laying around NOT living life because he hasn't-what? Hasn't gone off and gotten married to show he's REALLY over her? I mean, how is he NOT living his life? He's living an amazing life- amazing lives don't always involve Grand sweeping romance or a pile of children. She's just so gosh darn dislikable. ... I think you might have taken it a bit too far than it was intended. And I don't think anybody said anything about marriage or pile of children, especially given what was said of Bianca's arranged marriage She says she's "doing something"-- with her life and to correct her mistakes. Unlike Varric, who is hiding behind his writing/books. How else am I supposed to take those statements?
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 14, 2017 2:47:22 GMT
... I think you might have taken it a bit too far than it was intended. And I don't think anybody said anything about marriage or pile of children, especially given what was said of Bianca's arranged marriage She says she's "doing something"-- with her life and to correct her mistakes. Unlike Varric, who is hiding behind his writing/books. How else am I supposed to take those statements? ...That's why I said you're reading much more there than there actually is. No, she didn't say anything about "doing something with her life" or implying that Varric doesn't. At all. She's also not saying that Varric is passively hiding behind his writing/books, but that he spends too much wallowing in mistakes, kicking self for them (which is accurate) and has problems confronting stuff - something he later admits is true after we go back to Skyhold.
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Post by phoray on Jul 14, 2017 3:34:23 GMT
"Or am I supposed to wallow in my mistakes forever, kicking myself, telling stories of what I should have done?" ~ Bianca
This is an accusation- Bianca's perpsective of what Varric has done since they parted ways, whenever that was. MY perspective is that he's lived an awesome, if complicated, semi heroic life in Kirkwall for 10 years. This decade was followed by a totally heroic volunteer duty to fight something way bigger than himself, even before he found out his past actions had something to do with it.
So, it's a accusation made by a pissy dwarf who wants to distract from her own mistakes by pointing out that Varric's mistake is worse. That's a poor defense.
Edit Add: It reminds me of the debate between Lel and Morrigan in DAO, where they're debating the Andrastian religion, and Leliana's "closing argument" is to point out how miserable Morrigan is. I'm not sharp on these sorts of terms, but that seems a strawman/red herring argument.
The Issue at hand is Bianca giving the location of thaig out to a stranger. What she bounces back is "I'm fixing my mistake, unlike you, who has lived a shadow of a life for over a decade."
Yes, I stole the cookies, but you're a fat fuck who eats too much cake.
It's not related.
P.S. I'm not a huge Varric fan. I liked him in 2, but I never wanted to romance him or anything, and find his stuff in DAI to be stilted for the most part.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 14, 2017 4:08:56 GMT
Yes, it is an accusation. It is however not as vicious as you make it to be. She just doesn't like how Varric spends too much time kicking himself for his mistakes which either prevents or prevented him from taking action. Not necessarily in his whole life, but in some parts of it that mattered, especially when both of them come into the picture - and if the comic and part of the Fade vision is modeled after something that actually happened, where Bianca tried to act and get them to try and run away together again and he just gave up on it, one can see what exactly Bianca might have gripes with.
And I don't necessarily have that many feelings about Bianca, but I think I see her perspective. That's all there is to it.
_____
Anyway - how big of a chance anyone thinks there is for us to see Valta again? I think we'd see more Titans at one point or another, but Valta specifically? I have a feeling that the possibility of meeting her is fairly high.
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Post by phoray on Jul 14, 2017 4:43:37 GMT
Yes, it is an accusation. It is however not as vicious as you make it to be. She just doesn't like how Varric spends too much time kicking himself for his mistakes which either prevents or prevented him from taking action. Not necessarily in his whole life, but in some parts of it that mattered, especially when both of them come into the picture - and if the comic and part of the Fade vision is modeled after something that actually happened, where Bianca tried to act and get them to try and run away together again and he just gave up on it, one can see what exactly Bianca might have gripes with. And I don't necessarily have that many feelings about Bianca, but I think I see her perspective. That's all there is to it Ooooo. So your viewpoint is that she randomly decided to bring up old hurts in the middle of an argument about something else. Not that she's using it as. Red herring/strawman to deflect away from her flaws. That would make the "get a room you two" dialogue make more sense.
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Post by phoray on Jul 14, 2017 4:47:18 GMT
]Anyway - how big of a chance anyone thinks there is for us to see Valta again? I think we'd see more Titans at one point or another, but Valta specifically? I have a feeling that the possibility of meeting her is fairly high. Maybe. She's now Queen representative of the Titans, so she could have more interesting minions working in her name as well. She's kinda boring as a person without having a Titan in her head
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Post by Pon.ee on Jul 14, 2017 11:04:13 GMT
I hope we meet some dwarves from Kal Sharok. I had my nose stuck in the World of Thedas books recently and came across a codex entry I thought was pretty interesting. My approach was carefully observed. This was not a thaig unused to watching its boundaries. I got the impression that if I'd been one of his Orzammar cousins, our meeting would've been swift and bloody. That is, if I'd been allowed to find the passage at all. As it was, he was polite and efficient, and he knew well the current market for everything he offered. Clearly their isolation is not because of fear, and certainly not disinterest. Among his wares, I saw the latest fabrics of Val Royeaux and volumes by a Free Marcher poet three centuries dead. This only added to my doubt of the official year of Kal-Sharok's "rediscovery" as declared by the Assembly of Orzammar. I didn't mention this to my host. As curious as I was, there was an undercurrent I found unsettling. I must stress that he and his helpers were professional and honest throughout. But there was something I can't describe. While he remained hooded the entire time, he looked me square in the eye when our deal was struck, unashamed.
I lived through a time of Blights. I've felt the gaze of a Grey Warden and seen the corruption of his prey. Why I remembered both in that moment, I still can't explain. —On meeting Novas Sturhald in Kal-Sharok, excerpted from the journals of Ser Evrain Abernache, noble merchant-scholar Perhaps the Kal Sharok dwarves have re-established contact with a Titan? The book mentions they're secretive not wanting people to know what lengths they've gone to to survive. I mean everyone thought they were dead and gone. The comparison to the wardens though, maybe we might see some blighted red lyrium here? The highlighted passage beats us in the face with "oy, oy, oy! They resemble Grey Wardens and darkspawn!", so I'd say that the dwarves of Kal Sharok having their own version of Joining is more probable than them re-establishing connection with Titan. The only dwarf we know so far that seems to have truly re-established connection with Titans is Valta and she neither resembled Grey Wardens (Warden dwarves don't suddenly gain magical powers) or darkspawn. And now that I think about it... maybe Kal-Sharok dwarves is what Alexis Kennedy is writing about? They are fairly separated from the world, their proximity to Blight means there's a lot of potential material for heavy stories tinged with horror and uneasiness... they're also underground, kinda like underground sea in Sunless Sea I don't think any warden suddenly gains magical powers when they join regardless if they're a dwarf or not. And with regards to Titans I thought perhaps it might be more to do with Red Lyrium, which we know is lyrium tainted with the Blight. Yeah it makes people go crazy above ground if they're near it and they turn into horrifying monsters if they ingest it but if a blighted titan was still alive and the dwarves had re-established contact is it not possible that they might still have a modicum of control? I mean Samson didn't turn into a horrifying monster though I'm sure that's probably from Corypheus' influence. It would be interesting if the Kal-Sharok dwarves had become like the Sha-Brytol, probably not with lyrium infused into their skin but you never know. Shaper Valta when she gains a connection to the Titan sends a letter to Skyhold that says she doesn't need to sleep anymore. Potentially a titan could provide all the things you need to survive, and with Kal-Sharok having been left for dead by Orzammer after it was ravaged by the blight it's an interesting thought. Especially since most of the thaigs that provided crops for the dwarves were destroyed, Orzammer relies on the surface for a lot of their produce but Kal-Sharok only recently was rediscovered....According to Orzammar at least. Haha I'm just pullling at strings here but I think it'd be so cool, it'd make a great way for us to find out more about the Titans. I hope Kennedy is writing about this *grabby hands* c'mon Bioware gimme gimme! I need to know! ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png)
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Post by Pon.ee on Jul 14, 2017 11:08:03 GMT
Oo also I doubt they have their own version of the joining, the Dwarves suffer with infertility due to their proximity to the Darkspawn, and we know Wardens are highly unlikely to have children though we know it's not impossible. Orzammar only has a population of 100,000~ roughly and since Kal-Sharok is no longer the Dwarven capital it's likely they have fewer numbers. I'm not sure tainting themselves with the blight in that way would be conducive to surviving this long.... unless there's some weird extended life shenanigans going on here.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 14, 2017 11:39:50 GMT
The highlighted passage beats us in the face with "oy, oy, oy! They resemble Grey Wardens and darkspawn!", so I'd say that the dwarves of Kal Sharok having their own version of Joining is more probable than them re-establishing connection with Titan. The only dwarf we know so far that seems to have truly re-established connection with Titans is Valta and she neither resembled Grey Wardens (Warden dwarves don't suddenly gain magical powers) or darkspawn. And now that I think about it... maybe Kal-Sharok dwarves is what Alexis Kennedy is writing about? They are fairly separated from the world, their proximity to Blight means there's a lot of potential material for heavy stories tinged with horror and uneasiness... they're also underground, kinda like underground sea in Sunless Sea I don't think any warden suddenly gains magical powers when they join regardless if they're a dwarf or not. And with regards to Titans I thought perhaps it might be more to do with Red Lyrium, which we know is lyrium tainted with the Blight. Yeah it makes people go crazy above ground if they're near it and they turn into horrifying monsters if they ingest it but if a blighted titan was still alive and the dwarves had re-established contact is it not possible that they might still have a modicum of control? I mean Samson didn't turn into a horrifying monster though I'm sure that's probably from Corypheus' influence. Kal-Sharok being linked with blighted Titan... well, I think that honor may belong to darkspawn rather than dwarves. And I don't think red lyrium leaves much room when it comes to survival. It destroys even resilient people within a year or so; we saw that in future Redcliffe. Samson had unusual resistance to lyrium, but that resistance seems to be unique to him and ultimately it's only granted him a few more years of life. The regular Taint however... well, we know what is capable of prolonging a person's life even 3-4 decades - and that is ritual of the Joining. Personally I don't really think the mystery of Kal-Sharok dwarves is more complicated than that (though it's possible they harbor more than a few secrets), especially with very unsubtle author's comparisons to Grey Wardens. Valta is not Sha-Brytol. Sha-Brytol try to hoist themselves to the Titan, but ultimately Valta makes it clear that the Titan rejects them because - unlike Valta - they're not 'pure'. And their attempts left them degenerated, trapped in their armor and unable to even speak, not to mention entirely cut off from outside world (nor they're capable of using magic like Valta does). That is not how Kal-Sharok dwarves have been portrayed. Also, the author notices that Kal-Sharok dwarves' wares suggest that they've been travding with the surface for a while. Oh, I bet we'd find out more about the Titans either way - especially that Trespasser makes it quite clear that Elvehan/Evanuris have had dealings with them. So there are many ways how it could be done - Kal-Sharok dwarves don't have to be linked with Titans to know of their existence. We may as well just meet Valta there somewhere. Heck, maybe even Solas could share something we don't know about them, given that his own mural portrays him as the one striking the Titan.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 14, 2017 11:45:38 GMT
Oo also I doubt they have their own version of the joining, the Dwarves suffer with infertility due to their proximity to the Darkspawn, and we know Wardens are highly unlikely to have children though we know it's not impossible. Orzammar only has a population of 100,000~ roughly and since Kal-Sharok is no longer the Dwarven capital it's likely they have fewer numbers. I'm not sure tainting themselves with the blight in that way would be conducive to surviving this long.... unless there's some weird extended life shenanigans going on here. Nobody said that all Kal-Sharok dwarves are Tainted - maybe just their equivalent of Legion Of The Dead is. It's also very possible that they hunt out new dwarven blood on the surface, given that it is implied that they've been in contact with it for longer than Kal-Sharok's official re-discovery. Their version of the Joining may also permit children being born - they did have an awful lot of time to figure out the kinks of how to live in close proximity to Blighted environment after all.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 15, 2017 19:54:11 GMT
Wow, really? I wasn't aware of that. I don't follow the DA comics/books -- did something happen that I obviously wasn't aware of?
For me, it is entirely her depiction in Inquisition and here is a lengthy post that explains why in decent detail. I'll spoiler tag it for those that are not interested in it. I was indifferent to Bianca until she made a graphic threat towards the Inquisitor prompted by nothing on the Inquisitor's part and I was provided with no option to have my character respond. I seldom hate a Dragon Age character: at worst, I'm indifferent but Bianca's passing remark moved me from unimpressed with her to outright disliking her. It's not that I want an option to murder knife or something but not being able to respond to a direct threat in some way was very aggravating. No option to look unimpressed by it, no option to express anger at it or assure her. Nothing. Additionally, Varric himself volunteered for the Inquisition and all the dangers that involved. The Inquisitor had the option of joining the Inquisition or leaving and facing the very likely fate of mob "justice" or mock trial. Varric wasn't forced into the Inquisition in any way. So to Bianca, it's fine when Varric chooses to risk his life for reasons related to her but not when Varric chooses to risk his life for other reasons like the world. She could focus her impotent threat on the people who are actively threatening Varric and the world like, you know, Corypheus and his forces but no, direct the threat towards the person trying to stop Corypheus and his forces. You know, the person who helps keep Varric safe on the battlefield because they actively engage said battlefield. Way to use your alleged smarts, Bianca. There's just something about it all that makes me see Bianca as self-centered. I can deal with self-centered characters: I dealt with Morrigan and I like Morrigan but that's because I can respond to Morrigan. I think it would have been a lot easier to forget about if it wasn't because I kept getting met elsewhere by the assumption that I would have been fine with it and thought it was sweet if Bianca was a man or the love interest of my character. That assumption is persistent and it can shove it. When it comes to stories, I've always disliked the times where it's suppose to be sweet when a love interest of someone makes an unwarranted threat towards someone else who has done nothing to deserve it and in some cases, has done more to actually keep the significant other of the person safe. It does not make them look sweet, protective or worried: it makes them look like an immature asshole. If they're worried then, again, they're just taking out on someone that doesn't deserve it. It's even worse when it's treated like this badass moment. It's the same with the assumption that I only have a problem with Bianca because I wanted Varric to be a romance option. Oh, you only dislike this character because you ship another character with someone else! That's also the only reason why you dislike a ship! There can't possibly be another reason like, you know, characterization! Those assumptions can shove it right up alongside the first one. And I'm done. When Isabela threatened to castrate me if I ever hurt Merrill in DA2, I took it in stride. We were (sort of) friends, we'd fought together and Isabela had nothing to make up for, at least at that point in the game. (This was prior to the Tome of Koslun reveal.) Bianca, on the other hand, had just revealed she helped Corypheus unleash red lyrium on Thedas, a mistake led to the deaths of untold thousands. Varric and Hawke were also partially responsible for bringing red lyrium to Thedas, but unlike Bianca, they didn't try to hide their role and were actively trying to make up for their involvement. Bianca thinks just closing one passage is enough to absolve her of any further guilt. And then she threatens the one person who can actually defeat Corypheus and fix her goddamn mistake. As Shecinah said, I'm the one keeping Varric alive on the battlefield. How about directing your wrath at the Tevinter cultists and Red Templars trying to kill him? I think I remember liking *her in the pre-Inquisition comic. For those curious, here is a link to the pages featuring Bianca as she appears in a pre-Inquisition comic: sirianhewigv.tumblr.com/post/162121037077/dragon-age-until-we-sleep-02-2013 Note: it should be noted that the Bianca in the comic was, I think, a Fade version based on Varric's memories of her and likely influenced by his perception of her. Editing note: added thats1evildude's post because it touches on something because it nicely touches on something that I forgot. Honestly, I never took that threat seriously. And I don't think it was even meant to be a serious threat to begin with. It was just her way of showing that, despite everything that's happened, and her screwup, she still cares deeply for Varric and would take it very hard if anything happened to him. But she can't really say that, because she's married to someone else. Keep in mind, that, given the context of the Dwarven Merchant's Guild and the kalna (traditionalist) family she comes from, Bianca is kind of the dwarven equivalent of a mafia princess.
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Post by shechinah on Jul 16, 2017 20:21:54 GMT
Honestly, I never took that threat seriously. And I don't think it was even meant to be a serious threat to begin with. It was just her way of showing that, despite everything that's happened, and her screwup, she still cares deeply for Varric and would take it very hard if anything happened to him. But she can't really say that, because she's married to someone else. Keep in mind, that, given the context of the Dwarven Merchant's Guild and the kalna (traditionalist) family she comes from, Bianca is kind of the dwarven equivalent of a mafia princess. I did note that it was an impotent threat and again, the main issue that I have with the threat is the lack of ability to respond to it. That is basically the lid on the cooking pot that makes it bubble over. It's a bit difficult for me to formulate it better than I already have above but I'll try below. Again, I understand why Bianca makes that remark but as I've said: "When it comes to stories, I've always disliked the times where it's suppose to be sweet when a love interest of someone makes an unwarranted threat towards someone else who has done nothing to deserve it and in some cases, has done more to actually keep the significant other of the person safe. It does not make them look sweet, protective or worried: it makes them look like an immature asshole. If they're worried then, again, they're just taking out on someone that doesn't deserve it. It's even worse when it's treated like this badass moment."I can handle these kinds of characters. I can even like these kinds of characters but not when it's treated as if the worry completely excuses the behavior and means that no character would broker a comment about it. Going back to Morrigan as I had mentioned her in my post: I can understand how and why Morrigan is the way that she is but that does not mean that I do not want to respond to her. The same applies to Loghain, Anders and even NPCs. Being able to understand a character does not mean that you and your character would not respond to a character. That also negatively affects roleplaying. It's one thing to let a minor NPC who's done nothing serious get away with a remark like that but it's something else when the character has messed up, intentionally or not, to this degree and then threatens the person who's tried to help her make it right. The Inquisitor can stand in favor of Bianca (and she'll still threaten the Inquisitor) but the Inquisitor can also stand in disagreement with Bianca which means that it can look odd to some players that their character is provided no option to respond to that threat.
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Post by shechinah on Jul 16, 2017 20:30:52 GMT
While I don't mind how it was done in Inquisition, I do hope we'll have more moments with demons that are like the Envy Demon in the sense that there are conversations and/or scenes that show more the nature of the demons in question. I also like quests where a deal has already happened and you're experiencing the aftermath like with Allure or what happened at Chateau d'Onterre.
Oh, it's not that I think there should be no demons as merely enemies at all. Although I would like for the demon enemies to better match their supposed method. Dragon Age II had a habit of spamming desire demons as mooks when that hasn't how desire demons were said to primarily operate as far as I recall.
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