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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2017 22:05:34 GMT
So the only way to free the slaves is to side with a war criminal who is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands if not more of innocent lives for the purpose of world domination and reward those actions by making her in charge of one of the most powerful nations in the world? Great. If you're searching for moral purity and easy choices in DA game I don't think you're going to find much. Also - you can't pin all deaths caused by Coryphes' meddling on Calpernia. She's misguided, but she's not portrayed as a monster. Also - Tevinter is not the most powerful nation as of now, nor we know if we'd even be able to put anyone in charge of Tevinter. There is a difference between morally grey and morally black. Calpernia is the latter. You're right. I put all the deaths the Venatori caused on her because, you know, she is their leader. She absolutely is portrayed as a monster. First, I said one of the most not the most. There is a difference. Second, I'd argue they are the most powerful on the continent of Thedas(so Par Vollen doesn't count). The only nation that came close was Orlais, and their might was devastated by the civil war and Corypheus' schemes.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2017 22:07:21 GMT
Even if they super oppress the non-mage people into positions equal to or worse than the worst of the Circles? According to Dorian, the fate of the slaves not that bad in Thevinter, some of them live as a family member... Good to know you are nothing but a hypocrite.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 9, 2017 22:10:49 GMT
I want to learn more about the Titans!
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Post by Catilina on Sept 9, 2017 22:15:24 GMT
Tevinter already enslaves people. If we side with the Qun against Tevinter who is to say that the Qun would not want to take part of Tevinter or even entire lands. Unless I am mistaken you are either with the Qun or you are dead or reeducated. Would not want any lands to fall under their rule. Accept and live, deny or die- from Sten.
Think Tevinter can change and release their slaves. Wouldn't mind a Tevinter slave rebellion or helping the slaves to free themselves. Just don't want to fight with Qun. After the events in Kirkwall they are not the most rational people.
I like Sten and Iron Bull though. But Sten as Arishok will do what the Qun dictates and not what he learned being with the warden.
Do you think it would be ok to side with the Qun against Tevinter?
Oh and I was talking about the Story line - as in whatever the devs decide plot takes as long as we don't fight with the Qun. According to Dorian, the fate of the slaves not that bad in Thevinter, some of them live as a family member... Good to know you two are nothing but hypocrites. Hypocrite? Me? Never!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2017 22:17:53 GMT
Good to know you two are nothing but hypocrites. Oh my goodness that is not fair accusation Hanako. You're right. I saw after I posted that you said you were fine letting the slaves go or helping them get freedom. I apologize. Good to know you two are nothing but hypocrites. Hypocrite? Me? Never! Really? You are super against any injustice the mages receive by non-mages like living a life comparable to slavery, yet are fine supporting the mages doing far worse to non-mages like actual slavery. That is a textbook definition of hypocrisy.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 9, 2017 22:19:06 GMT
Oh my goodness that is not fair accusation Hanako. You're right. I saw after I posted that you said you were fine letting the slaves go or helping them get freedom. I apologize. Really? You are super against any injustice the mages receive by non-mages, yet are fine supporting the mages doing far worse to non-mages like slavery. That is a textbook definition of hypocrisy. I would blow up the whole Magisterium to free the slaves, you know...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2017 22:19:29 GMT
I want to learn more about the Titans! I wouldn't be surprised if the Titans play a major role in this upcoming conflict. After all they have a bone to pick with the ancient elves.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2017 22:20:40 GMT
You're right. I saw after I posted that you said you were fine letting the slaves go or helping them get freedom. I apologize. Really? You are super against any injustice the mages receive by non-mages, yet are fine supporting the mages doing far worse to non-mages like slavery. That is a textbook definition of hypocrisy. I would blow up the whole Magisterium to free the slaves, you know... And yet you literally just waved away the prospect of slavery by saying some live nice lives. Meanwhile some Circle mages also live nice lives and overall better than slaves and yet that is unacceptable.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 9, 2017 22:25:42 GMT
I would blow up the whole Magisterium to free the slaves, you know... And yet you literally just waved away the prospect of slavery by saying some live nice lives. Meanwhile some Circle mages also live nice lives and overall better than slaves and yet that is unacceptable. sarcasm
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2017 22:26:37 GMT
You're right. I saw after I posted that you said you were fine letting the slaves go or helping them get freedom. I apologize. Really? You are super against any injustice the mages receive by non-mages, y et are fine supporting the mages doing far worse to non-mages like slavery. That is a textbook definition of hypocrisy. That is not what I said and know fully well I did not say that. I said I did not want to fight with the Qun. Also said would fight for freedom of slaves in Tevinter- just not with the Qun. Sometimes it does matter who you ally with. Arishok in DA2 seemed perfectly fine to take Kirkwall because he believed the people were not right in not following the Qun and it was up to him to put it right. And you want me to fight with the Qunari? So after we the battle you would be fine then with the Qunari enslaving the people of Tevinter and giving them a choice to deny or die, accept and live? That part you highlighted wasn't directed at you. The top part where I apologize was the part directed at you. To be honest I'd rather side with neither or find a way for both of them to shape up. I don't want a "you must side with one or the other".
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 9, 2017 22:27:26 GMT
If you're searching for moral purity and easy choices in DA game I don't think you're going to find much. Also - you can't pin all deaths caused by Coryphes' meddling on Calpernia. She's misguided, but she's not portrayed as a monster. Also - Tevinter is not the most powerful nation as of now, nor we know if we'd even be able to put anyone in charge of Tevinter. There is a difference between morally grey and morally black. Calpernia is the latter. If you think Calpernia is the latter, I have doubts you see the difference between morally grey and morally black. She may be on the darker side of the spectrum, but no - she's only black if the "spectrum" is black and white. Corypheus is Venatori leader. She's a former slave girl he's found and manipulated into serving him and was entertained as such only because Corypheus ordered Venatori to follow her. Unlike other Venatori leadership who are rich nobles all she knew before was life of a slave and what she's found and was capable to read in the house of Erasthenes. She can't be judged on the same level as them. Putting 'absolutely' in front of a statement doesn't make it more true. And no, she wasn't. She was portrayed as someone sensitive to plight of slaves and deeply believing in worth of all people, even the smallest ones; one who began doubting her leader during her personal quest; someone who can be reasoned with and swayed with evidence and someone who is fierce and dedicated to her cause, but not cruel. And Tevinter has been devastated by hundreds of years of slow bleeding out by Qunari. They're ripe for picking and everybody knows it. South at least had Inquisition and time to take a breather after Corypheus was defeated.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 9, 2017 22:32:17 GMT
That is not what I said and know fully well I did not say that. I said I did not want to fight with the Qun. Also said would fight for freedom of slaves in Tevinter- just not with the Qun. Sometimes it does matter who you ally with. Arishok in DA2 seemed perfectly fine to take Kirkwall because he believed the people were not right in not following the Qun and it was up to him to put it right. And you want me to fight with the Qunari? So after we the battle you would be fine then with the Qunari enslaving the people of Tevinter and giving them a choice to deny or die, accept and live? That part you highlighted wasn't directed at you. The top part where I apologize was the part directed at you. To be honest I'd rather side with neither or find a way for both of them to shape up. I don't want a "you must side with one or the other".WW2 alliance...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2017 22:39:43 GMT
There is a difference between morally grey and morally black. Calpernia is the latter. If you think Calpernia is the latter, I have doubts you see the difference between morally grey and morally black. She may be on the darker side of the spectrum, but no - she's only black if the "spectrum" is black and white. Corypheus is Venatori leader. She's a former slave girl he's found and manipulated into serving him and was entertained as such only because Corypheus ordered Venatori to follow her. Unlike other Venatori leadership who are rich nobles all she knew before was life of a slave and what she's found and was capable to read in the house of Erasthenes. She can't be judged on the same level as them. Putting 'absolutely' in front of a statement doesn't make it more true. And no, she wasn't. She was portrayed as someone sensitive to plight of slaves, one who began doubting her leader during her personal quest, someone who can be reasoned with and swayed with evidence and someone who is fierce and dedicated to her cause, but not cruel. And Tevinter has been devastated by hundreds of years of slow bleeding out by Qunari. They're ripe for picking and everybody knows it. South at least had Inquisition and time to take a breather after Corypheus was defeated. You can have doubts all you want. You're wrong, but I can't control what you think. Yes she is. Everything in the game refers to her as leader of the Venatori. Corypheus leads everybody, but she is in charge of all Venatori operations. And yes she can. If anything she could be judged even worse since she put people what she went through thus knew was bad. *looks at all the slaves she had worked to death for various reasons and all the people she sent to be turned into monsters* Oh yeah, she isn't cruel at all. The lore practically beats us over the head with who the big three powers are: Par Vollen, Tevinter, and Orlais. With everything that happened to Orlais between the civil war and all the rifts it is devastated meanwhile Tevinter is relatively unscathed by the rifts and them and the Qun have fought a limited war for a while while both prepared for the real war.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2017 22:43:50 GMT
That part you highlighted wasn't directed at you. The top part where I apologize was the part directed at you. T o be honest I'd rather side with neither or find a way for both of them to shape up. I don't want a "you must side with one or the other". I know, I apologize for that last post. I realized you weren't talking to me after I posted so deleted my post but was too late. Bolded: Agree supporting either is not ideal but supporting Tevinter ever so slightly better than the Qunari. Knowing BioWare though... What do you think they will do in DA4 in Tevinter with the slaves? Depends if something big happens to Tevinter in the beginning of the game or not. If something big happens to it I can see there being a slave rebellion as a secondary story line like DAI had with the mages/templars, Grey Wardens, and Orlais. If not I see it being something that is dealt with during the main quest like as suggested an Archon candidate may support emancipation.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 9, 2017 22:45:42 GMT
I know, I apologize for that last post. I realized you weren't talking to me after I posted so deleted my post but was too late. Bolded: Agree supporting either is not ideal but supporting Tevinter ever so slightly better than the Qunari. Knowing BioWare though... What do you think they will do in DA4 in Tevinter with the slaves? Depends if something big happens to Tevinter in the beginning of the game or not. If something big happens to it I can see there being a slave rebellion as a secondary story line like DAI had with the mages/templars, Grey Wardens, and Orlais. If not I see it being something that is dealt with during the main quest like as suggested an Archon candidate may support emancipation. Haha, peaceful solution...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2017 22:49:15 GMT
Depends if something big happens to Tevinter in the beginning of the game or not. If something big happens to it I can see there being a slave rebellion as a secondary story line like DAI had with the mages/templars, Grey Wardens, and Orlais. If not I see it being something that is dealt with during the main quest like as suggested an Archon candidate may support emancipation. Haha, peaceful solution... I never said peaceful. The person could be like Leliana as Divine Victoria, where depending on them it is either peaceful or not. Though it's quite likely by the time that happens either Tevinter is desperate enough to do it and/or too weak to put up resistance to it.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 9, 2017 22:56:33 GMT
Haha, peaceful solution... I never said peaceful. The person could be like Leliana as Divine Victoria, where depending on them it is either peaceful or not. Though it's quite likely by the time that happens either Tevinter is desperate enough to do it and/or too weak to put up resistance to it. We'll see. But I think, the decisions will controversial again. For example, I suppose, "the slaves' fate not that bad" "grey morality" will get a role...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2017 22:57:51 GMT
Depends if something big happens to Tevinter in the beginning of the game or not. If something big happens to it I can see there being a slave rebellion as a secondary story line like DAI had with the mages/templars, Grey Wardens, and Orlais. If not I see it being something that is dealt with during the main quest like as suggested an Archon candidate may support emancipation. How would Solas fit into it. He is gathering the elves together. Many elves are aligning with the Qunari as we saw in DA2 and they can't leave the Qun. Solas I imagine is going to use the chaos caused by the Tevinter/Qun war as a smokescreen so he can move undetected until he is ready to make his move.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 9, 2017 23:05:29 GMT
If you think Calpernia is the latter, I have doubts you see the difference between morally grey and morally black. She may be on the darker side of the spectrum, but no - she's only black if the "spectrum" is black and white. Corypheus is Venatori leader. She's a former slave girl he's found and manipulated into serving him and was entertained as such only because Corypheus ordered Venatori to follow her. Unlike other Venatori leadership who are rich nobles all she knew before was life of a slave and what she's found and was capable to read in the house of Erasthenes. She can't be judged on the same level as them. Putting 'absolutely' in front of a statement doesn't make it more true. And no, she wasn't. She was portrayed as someone sensitive to plight of slaves, one who began doubting her leader during her personal quest, someone who can be reasoned with and swayed with evidence and someone who is fierce and dedicated to her cause, but not cruel. And Tevinter has been devastated by hundreds of years of slow bleeding out by Qunari. They're ripe for picking and everybody knows it. South at least had Inquisition and time to take a breather after Corypheus was defeated. You can have doubts all you want. You're wrong, but I can't control what you think. 'You're wrong' is not a proper argument. There's a difference between being a leader and being appointed leader and she was appointed to be a leader by Corypheus. In her short tale the Venatori leadership (there are more leaders of the Venatori than Calpernia, you know...) actually sneered at her - she was only tolerated because of Corypheus, and Cory had very specific plans towards her. Also, she DIDN'T put people what she went through. She bought out slaves and actually killed Vints who abused or re-enslaved those she freed. She didn't want to fight with Inquisitor and instead tried to reason with them, recognizing that they serve their people, only to be swayed when presented with evidence. She even covered the fact that some Venatori leadership were killed by people sent to kill her and she helped them escape. Hanako, I think you need to replay the game or at least check the sources, because you have in-game facts mixed up. Calpernia released slaves instead of working them to death and every time she's found out that her people abused them, she punished them severely. They've spent a lot of time in the game establishing that. If the Vints worked their slaves to death, it was on them, because they went against her orders. The lore is not 100% accurate and we have words of the guy who actually rules the country whoa admits that Tevinter is not what it was and that 'there's no glory in extinction' (if asked why not fight for greater glory of Tevinter. He knows they stand no chance). Just because Tevinter is CONSIDERED one of big powers doesn't mean that its power ain't undermined by everything that happened and keeps happening. I mean, nevermind that we have no idea when exactly we'd be put in the timeline at the start of DA4. Right after Exalted Council? A bit later? The Qunari lost the chance to eliminate the Southern leadership and they immediately turned on Tevinter, with frequency and ferocity of their attacks growing and yes - even the lore bits we get in Trespasser epilogue that "their aggression caught the already unstable Imperium off guard. Tevinter was soon mired in a war many feared could spread across Thedas." So even if we assume that rifts and other cataclysms didn't really touch Tevinter (which we don't know how much they did), a steady push of the Qunari will.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 9, 2017 23:15:43 GMT
If Dorian has a role in the next DA game, I say he will end up being the Archon by the end of the game
As far as the calpernia character goes. I don't see her returning
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2017 23:19:19 GMT
You can have doubts all you want. You're wrong, but I can't control what you think. 'You're wrong' is not a proper argument. There's a difference between being a leader and being appointed leader and she was appointed to be a leader by Corypheus. In her short tale the Venatori leadership (there are more leaders of the Venatori than Calpernia, you know...) actually sneered at her - she was only tolerated because of Corypheus, and Cory had very specific plans towards her. Also, she DIDN'T put people what she went through. She bought out slaves and actually killed Vints who abused or re-enslaved those she freed. She didn't want to fight with Inquisitor and instead tried to reason with them, recognizing that they serve their people, only to be swayed when presented with evidence. She even covered the fact that some Venatori leadership were killed by people sent to kill her and she helped them escape. Hanako, I think you need to replay the game or at least check the sources, because you have in-game facts mixed up. Calpernia released slaves instead of working them to death and every time she's found out that her people abused them, she punished them severely. They've spent a lot of time in the game establishing that. If the Vints worked their slaves to death, it was on them, because they went against her orders. The lore is not 100% accurate and we have words of the guy who actually rules the country whoa admits that Tevinter is not what it was and that 'there's no glory in extinction' (if asked why not fight for greater glory of Tevinter. He knows they stand no chance). Just because Tevinter is CONSIDERED one of big powers doesn't mean that its power ain't undermined by everything that happened and keeps happening. I mean, nevermind that we have no idea when exactly we'd be put in the timeline at the start of DA4. Right after Exalted Council? A bit later? The Qunari lost the chance to eliminate the Southern leadership and they immediately turned on Tevinter, with frequency and ferocity of their attacks growing and yes - even the lore bits we get in Trespasser epilogue that "their aggression caught the already unstable Imperium off guard. Tevinter was soon mired in a war many feared could spread across Thedas." So even if we assume that rifts and other cataclysms didn't really touch Tevinter (which we don't know how much they did), a steady push of the Qunari will. It is considering your insult of me not being able to see grey. What would you say would be a proper argument to refute that? I'm not denying she did those things, but at the same time those under her command killed and enslaved thousands upon thousands of people, using them for various purposes from simple manpower to being sacrificed in various ways to increase the strength of Corypheus' army. No, I have my in-game facts correct. The Hissing Wastes have the Venatori working slaves to death while they search under Calpernia's orders. She ordered them to finish the mission with all haste forgoing the cost. So you're basically saying that despite everything the series has told us so far, Tevinter is a weak nation? That Anderfels, Antiva, Ferelden, Free Marches, Kal-Sharok, Nevarra, Orzammar, and Rivain are each more powerful than it?
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 9, 2017 23:19:33 GMT
If Dorian has a role in the next DA game, I say he will end up being the Archon by the end of the game As far as the calpernia character goes. I don't see her returning It would certainly be ironic considering that such seemed to be the initial plans of his parents. And I'd be very surprised if Calpernia didn't return at come capacity, given her open-ended exit from DAI in any world-state. It's usually a mark of characters with potential of returning.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 9, 2017 23:21:29 GMT
Good thing this a speculation thread, right?
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 9, 2017 23:47:18 GMT
It is considering your insult of me not being able to see grey. Still not an argument. Now it's just a tantrum. And I don't know whether you can't or just don't want to see grey. In this case you don't and instead prefer to lash out at people for anything you want to interpret as an attack. Take it easy, I'm not here to pick on you. None of the notes on the Wastes are from Calpernia. The one you mention is from Overseer Jullex and only exists in the world-state when Calpernia is relegated to cataloging artifacts for Cory, instead of being one of the prominent Venatori leaders. If Templars are chosen and she retains her status, the letter doesn't mention working slaves to death and the letter to slaver she killed makes it clear what awaits anyone who abuses slaves once she finds out about it. So you still got your in-game facts wrong. Venatori have many leaders. Not all of them fall under Calpernia's orders, she's not One True Leader Of Venatori, but one of many leaders of Corypheus' forces that can lose her rank, like Alexius or Samson and so on. The 'honor' of highest leader belongs to Corypheus and he decides who leads various troops or groups. So me saying that Tevinter is not as powerful as it seems suddenly means that everyone else is more powerful than it? What's with the strange binary thinking? Also - yes, Tevinter is weaker than many countries... when they combine forces. Why do you think even Inquisition gives it pause? Archon Radonis in Magekiller decides to kill his own nobles with hands of hired assassins because knows that pursuing the crazy dream of reborn Imperium will result with country's demise if South decides to unite against them.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 9, 2017 23:58:11 GMT
midnight tea Hence my asking you what you would consider an argument. And for someone who is "not here to pick on you" you certainly have resorted to a lot of personal insults. Uh-huh, yeah sure okay whatever you say. You're right and me, the game, and the material outside the game are all wrong. You are saying that Tevinter isn't one of the world powers in Thedas, so I was asking whether you thought any of those other nations I listed are more powerful than it since clearly some have to be to knock Tevinter out of its spot. The fact you had to say that those nations have to combine forces proves my point of it being one of the powerhouses in the DA world.
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