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Post by tacsear on Sept 10, 2017 22:06:42 GMT
Choice-impact isn't the problem here. Just look at DAI epilogues. The real problem is the lack of dark themes and fear of political correctness well in my honest opinion, through the game honestly i don't see any great change regardless of choices made, aside from who you leave in the fade and who you side to seal the breach, even the quest wicked hearts it's a joke, and with all that i see hardly a difference, aside from some characters and some dialogue lines. I read some of them, and i can't hardly see anything impactful, and anyway the epilogues has always been what if thing, never what would happen in the next games. and yeah, i agree with you, no dark themes, fear of political correctness, and some other things that are dooming what really is Dragon Age, and you can add this to the list of many features that are gone and never will come back. ironically is like the taint, it's slowly dying. I know you don't like DAI but you gotta give credit where it's due. Inquisition had great endings. It's really the opposite of ME3 in that regard. I fear that Patrick Weekes will push that political correctness to a new level and we will end up with some weird ass game.
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Post by tacsear on Sept 10, 2017 22:13:35 GMT
Choice-impact isn't the problem here. Just look at DAI epilogues. The real problem is the lack of dark themes and fear of political correctness What exactly is a problem with DAI epilogues and why are supposedly bereft of dark themes and how do they fear political correctness? I don't get it. I don't get the incessant attempt to try and portray DAI as "Disneyified" (and when I hear that, I have to wonder whether people who say that watched Disney at all, considering how effing dark their movies can be). So I have to wonder - is it because main campaign dared to end up on something of an upbeat note? We defeated Corypheus and things didn't fall apart completely. Look at all this whiteknighting! ...You realize this is a setup before everything comes crashing down in Trespasser, right? There is no problem with epilogues. It is wonderfully done. You just have to look to origins to see why I don't see dai as a dark game. It reminds me of the time when Bioware didn't actually fear about topics that are considered sensitive today. And I'm not saying I don't like dai because I do love it. In fact I love it even though I didn't find a romance option(like Leliana and Isabela) to make me feel more connected to the game. It's just they seem to be holding back their insane storytelling.
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Post by phoray on Sept 10, 2017 23:29:06 GMT
^^^^^^ Oo! Oo! Oo! Come on guys, what do we think? Dorian's MAgister Mansion? or future home of the Archon himself?
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 10, 2017 23:36:09 GMT
What exactly is a problem with DAI epilogues and why are supposedly bereft of dark themes and how do they fear political correctness? I don't get it. I don't get the incessant attempt to try and portray DAI as "Disneyified" (and when I hear that, I have to wonder whether people who say that watched Disney at all, considering how effing dark their movies can be). So I have to wonder - is it because main campaign dared to end up on something of an upbeat note? We defeated Corypheus and things didn't fall apart completely. Look at all this whiteknighting! ...You realize this is a setup before everything comes crashing down in Trespasser, right? There is no problem with epilogues. It is wonderfully done. You just have to look to origins to see why I don't see dai as a dark game. It reminds me of the time when Bioware didn't actually fear about topics that are considered sensitive today. And I'm not saying I don't like dai because I do love it. In fact I love it even though I didn't find a romance option(like Leliana and Isabela) to make me feel more connected to the game. It's just they seem to be holding back their insane storytelling. I played DAO and the rest of games. I don't see DAO having more 'dark' themes than any other, in fact - ironically - I find DAO slightly more cartoonish, more than in a sense of visual style. The fact that they don't have romance options 'like Leliana or Isabela' isn't necessarily because 'they fear topics considered sensitive today' but wanted to try something different. DA games are known for that. There's no more 'Leliana and Isabela' romances, because there were there already, so it's time for something else. In fact, hopeful and sensitive Leliana, despite completing her arc in DAO, can in DAI turn into the very person she was afraid to turn. On the other hand, you can have a companion (and a lover) who runs from justice after ordering his men to murder a family, including children, and one that we don't know what the hell he's planning, but may yet end with destruction of known world. In fact, ironically, if it wasn't for Corypheus and his ambitions and wanting to destroy the South with their own, corrupted protectors (including the faction our first PC in the franchise belonged to), Thedas as we know it might have not existed anymore. if that ain't dark (and ironic), I don't know what is. And that's one among many things.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 10, 2017 23:37:37 GMT
Mike Laidlaw @mike_Laidlaw"Hey Mike," you might ask, "does Romania's architecture fuck around?" No...no it does not. ^^^^^^ Oo! Oo! Oo! Come on guys, what do we think? Dorian's MAgister Mansion? or future home of the Archon himself? LOL, Tevinter in socrealist style? edit: it's actually XIXth century Eclectism, my bad. There's a lot of monumental architecture in Eastern Europe that draws from such style, but is from communist period though.
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Post by Walter Black on Sept 11, 2017 0:00:21 GMT
Hanako, over the years you've made your preferences known: idealized and perfectly moral characters in a Black and White, maybe even family friendly setting. But this is something Dragon Age never has been and (unless Patrick Weekes elects to completely betray it's history and tone) never will be. We all knew from the start that DA was an adult world with dark stories, complex characters and no easy answers. I get that no one will like a story 100%, that there will always be nitpicks. But given that over half the franchise's characters, lore, and plots seem antithetical to what you prefer, why do you follow the franchise? And no, this is not a "take it or leave it stance"; I am genuinely curious as to what you like about Dragon Age that keeps you coming back, in spite of everything else.
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Post by rapscallioness on Sept 11, 2017 0:51:04 GMT
A Barbarian companion and LI? Yes, please. *giggle*
But can he be Swoonworthy? And a "he"? With a ruggedly charming personality and a certain protective vibe? And can he be Bi so my gay brethren can have a little kisa? And we can swoon together in a character thread about him?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2017 0:57:32 GMT
well in my honest opinion, through the game honestly i don't see any great change regardless of choices made, aside from who you leave in the fade and who you side to seal the breach, even the quest wicked hearts it's a joke, and with all that i see hardly a difference, aside from some characters and some dialogue lines. I read some of them, and i can't hardly see anything impactful, and anyway the epilogues has always been what if thing, never what would happen in the next games. and yeah, i agree with you, no dark themes, fear of political correctness, and some other things that are dooming what really is Dragon Age, and you can add this to the list of many features that are gone and never will come back. ironically is like the taint, it's slowly dying. I know you don't like DAI but you gotta give credit where it's due. Inquisition had great endings. It's really the opposite of ME3 in that regard. I fear that Patrick Weekes will push that political correctness to a new level and we will end up with some weird ass game. Hey, it's not that i don't like DAI, even if i don't feel any connection, it's not a bad game imo, if i should rate it would be 6,5/10, just it lacks of many things in my honest opinion. in fact, DAI for me, it has the best battle themes of all the franchise for example, and that means a lot to me. And yeah i think the same with Patrick's statement, time will tell.
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Post by Fredward on Sept 11, 2017 6:11:36 GMT
How much time do ya'll think will have passed between Trespasser and DA4?
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 11, 2017 6:26:32 GMT
How much do ya'll think will have passed between Trespasser and DA4? My assumption is that it won't be that long. 2, maybe 5 years at best. Another is a question of how long DA4 will last - what if it starts sometime shortly after Trespasser, but then we get a time jump?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 11, 2017 7:00:33 GMT
How much do ya'll think will have passed between Trespasser and DA4? My assumption is that it won't be that long. 2, maybe 5 years at best. Another is a question of how long DA4 will last - what if it starts sometime shortly after Trespasser, but then we get a time jump? My guess would be 2 at most....but the time jump is an interesting idea. So prologue is Inquisitor (or Leliana or someone) finding our PC and setting them on their mission, and then time jumps forward and we find ourselves in the middle of full on war between the Qun and the vints, which egghead is using to obfuscate his dodgy activities. The only concern I'd have is some people would get too wound up about the things their character "did" during the time jump. I recall that being something that was complained about with DA2 and its 3 year jumps. It could be a useful narrative tool, though, depending on how it was implemented.
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Post by lucidae on Sept 11, 2017 7:23:53 GMT
How much time do ya'll think will have passed between Trespasser and DA4? I think it will be 6 months - 1 year and the game will take place over 2-5 years.
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Post by lucidae on Sept 11, 2017 7:24:22 GMT
The more I read this thread the less returning characters I want to see......
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 11, 2017 12:45:15 GMT
I actually hold out hopes for Sten as Arishok. His entry in WoT2 makes it clear he was questioning the methods of his superiors long before he was sent to Ferelden. For a junior officer to criticise the Arishok in that way was unheard of at that time. Yet, after that Arishok (not the Kirkwall one but before him) was killed, it would seem that the leadership started to adopt some of Sten's ideas which included focussing on gathering intelligence, hence Iron Bull being sent to spy in the south and the use of elven and humans converts to assist in the process.
A Tevinter agent was aware of that initial confrontation with his superiors and found it disturbing if they did adopt his ideas. When the rumours started to spread that "Sten" had become Arishok, Minrathous was really alarmed because the Qun military finally seemed to have an intelligent leader.
For all Sten appeared not to have changed his worldview at the end of DAO, the fact is he had had his eyes opened to certain things, such as that women can be effective fighters and that mages are actually more useful when they don't have their mouths sewn shut. There was also the potential for him to acknowledge the Warden as Basalit-an and in the comic series he also gives King Alistair the same honour. If he is able to view such people as respected foreigners, who knows what changes he might contemplate in order to assist the Qun's efforts at conquest?
The epilogue to Trespasser if you sided with the Qun in DAI has them denouncing the Viddasala, offering to continue the alliance, whether the Inquisition is disbanded or not, and suggesting to the Divine she might assist them in their efforts against Tevinter. Whilst I personally would be very wary of their friendly overtures, it nevertheless shows that they have learned subtlety in politics just as Tevinter feared they would.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 11, 2017 14:02:36 GMT
I was just rummaging around on You Tube and came across some DA4 speculation. What was interesting is that there was a quote from an actual Bioware codex relating to a training manual for the Siccari who are the official operatives on Seheron for Tevinter creating fear and division (as Bull tells us about). I don't know if this has already been discussed but it blew my mind because they are using the term "Siccari" which is only slightly different from "Sicarri" who were the Jewish assassins who were active in 1st century Judea. They got their name from the small daggers they carried on their person and they were known for going among the crowds and stabbing Romans and Roman sympathisers among the Jewish community and generally creating an atmosphere of fear in the general populace.
So this fits perfectly with the tactics of the training manual where they are encouraged to create a mood of fear among the ordinary population on Seheron by manufacturing events that appear to be the responsibility of either the Qun or the rebels, so the peasants will eventually look to Tevinter for salvation.
So in addition to the possibility of a Fog Warrior companion, who is from the rebel faction, there is also the possibility of a Siccari companion. It seems highly unlikely they would have gone to the trouble of having a training manual and distinctive name for the Tevinter agents on Seheron if they weren't planning on using them in some way.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 11, 2017 17:26:44 GMT
How much time do ya'll think will have passed between Trespasser and DA4? Not that long. A couple years at most, though I can see it starting almost immediately after as well. I also expect the events of the game to take place over the span of a year, like they did in DAO and DAI.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 11, 2017 17:40:11 GMT
Hanako, over the years you've made your preferences known: idealized and perfectly moral characters in a Black and White, maybe even family friendly setting. But this is something Dragon Age never has been and (unless Patrick Weekes elects to completely betray it's history and tone) never will be. We all knew from the start that DA was an adult world with dark stories, complex characters and no easy answers. I get that no one will like a story 100%, that there will always be nitpicks. But given that over half the franchise's characters, lore, and plots seem antithetical to what you prefer, why do you follow the franchise? And no, this is not a "take it or leave it stance"; I am genuinely curious as to what you like about Dragon Age that keeps you coming back, in spite of everything else.
If that is how you perceive my preferences, you are mistaken. At least partially. I am able to enjoy morally grey stories, in fact some of my favorite series in various media are that. And while yes there are plots, characters, lore, etc that I do not like personally, I'm still able to enjoy them as a story. For example let's use Solas. Personally I hate him however as a character I find him fascinating. And while there may be things I dislike in the franchise, there is much more I do like.
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Post by Walter Black on Sept 11, 2017 22:08:02 GMT
Hanako, over the years you've made your preferences known: idealized and perfectly moral characters in a Black and White, maybe even family friendly setting. But this is something Dragon Age never has been and (unless Patrick Weekes elects to completely betray it's history and tone) never will be. We all knew from the start that DA was an adult world with dark stories, complex characters and no easy answers. I get that no one will like a story 100%, that there will always be nitpicks. But given that over half the franchise's characters, lore, and plots seem antithetical to what you prefer, why do you follow the franchise? And no, this is not a "take it or leave it stance"; I am genuinely curious as to what you like about Dragon Age that keeps you coming back, in spite of everything else.
If that is how you perceive my preferences, you are mistaken. At least partially. I am able to enjoy morally grey stories, in fact some of my favorite series in various media are that. And while yes there are plots, characters, lore, etc that I do not like personally, I'm still able to enjoy them as a story. For example let's use Solas. Personally I hate him however as a character I find him fascinating. And while there may be things I dislike in the franchise, there is much more I do like. Fair enough. Such as?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 11, 2017 22:21:24 GMT
If that is how you perceive my preferences, you are mistaken. At least partially. I am able to enjoy morally grey stories, in fact some of my favorite series in various media are that. And while yes there are plots, characters, lore, etc that I do not like personally, I'm still able to enjoy them as a story. For example let's use Solas. Personally I hate him however as a character I find him fascinating. And while there may be things I dislike in the franchise, there is much more I do like. Fair enough. Such as? Well, many of our companions I really like such as Josephine, Merrill, Aveline, Cole, Cassandra, Leliana, etc. And then things like a lot of the quests, stories, and lore are really interesting. Add to that the game is fun to play and there are more positives than negatives with the DA franchise for me.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 12, 2017 0:31:58 GMT
He always lived in a slave holder society. The slaves to him, just as the furnitures, always were everywhere around him, the slavery to him, is natural, as breath. I don't think, he ever thought on this problem. If he later, in a conflict insists on this opinion, and can't see the right viewpoint about it, then he's wrong, I'm not against to kill him in a conflict, for his insist to an evil system. But yet? I don't see him as evil. Just as an Andrastian Templar for example, or Cassandra, Cullen. They need some time to change their mind. Every people need that. What traits? (He's not my favorite character, but I think, he's nice.) I never said I saw him as evil, just that I don't like him. Just like how you dislike those people you mentioned until they change their perspective, I'm allowed to dislike Dorian until he disavows slavery as the atrocity that it is. Like his personality traits, for example him being egotistical. They are not real slaves dude. And? Yeah Dorian never really disavowed slavery, which was an aspect I didn't like about his character.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 12, 2017 1:00:24 GMT
I never said I saw him as evil, just that I don't like him. Just like how you dislike those people you mentioned until they change their perspective, I'm allowed to dislike Dorian until he disavows slavery as the atrocity that it is. Like his personality traits, for example him being egotistical. And? Yeah Dorian never really disavowed slavery, which was an aspect I didn't like about his character. I don't think, he ever thought about the slavery. They are everywhere in Tevinter. People don't question the existence of the air, the water... The people tend to be insensitive if something is not affected them directly. He had another problem.
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Post by wickedcool on Sept 12, 2017 13:25:50 GMT
Kind of silly that we take today's politics and try and place them on characters are living in times that orphanages/slaves are acceptable
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2017 13:30:44 GMT
So, I've seen PC as being a Slave turned Rebel/Ex Slave for the protaganist mentioned a lot. As someone who adores the City Elf Origin with all it's built in darkness, classism, and racism, I would be pretty psyched to be a slave that rebels and leads other slaves to freedom. I think the Fog Warrior should be a companion or recurring strong NPC. There is a lot of culture to inform us about, and without ORigins which have been all but confirmed as never to exist again.... WE can't tell ourselves about that culture. I liked that story set-up in SWTOR for its Inquisitor. Would love to see a rebel coming from that background this time. Either Calpernia or a Fenris or a new character as a rallying point would be great, but I also would not mind the Liberator protagonist to have it as his or hers own personal agenda.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 12, 2017 15:48:33 GMT
Kind of silly that we take today's politics and try and place them on characters are living in times that orphanages/slaves are acceptable In most of the setting slavery is unacceptable as well.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 12, 2017 17:51:12 GMT
I think it needs to be borne in mind that Tevinter is very much based on ancient Rome, both its political set up and the institution of slavery. A member of the upper classes in ancient Rome would view slavery in exactly the same way that Dorian does. They would also likely point out that when they conquer somewhere, rather than simply massacring the population, they utilise them as slaves. It is very much part of their culture and the empire simply wouldn't function without slaves. This is why the slave revolt led by Spartacus shook them to the core.
Where Thedas is different is that ancient Rome was just one of many slave keeping cultures, whereas in Thedas only Tevinter still "officially" keeps slaves. Of course there is a lot of hypocrisy elsewhere. As Dorian rightly points out, the way elves are treated in the alienages is tantamount to slavery, in that there is no escape from the way of life (unless you are very lucky) and they are frequently treated with less respect than many Tevinter nobles give their slaves.
Dorian does admit that he never even thought to question the system when he was living in Tevinter and his observations regarding slavery versus poverty in the alienage at least indicate he has given it some consideration. The problem was the conversation about slavery was clearly written when the Inquisitor was only going to be a human noble, so Dorian does come across as something of a jerk when telling a Dalish elf, a Carta dwarf of a Tal-Vashoth mercenary that they have no more idea than he does of what it is like to be poor and seems to have no awareness of why a Dalish elf in particular would be so sensitive on the subject of slavery.
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