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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2017 18:08:28 GMT
Kind of silly that we take today's politics and try and place them on characters are living in times that orphanages/slaves are acceptable people fails to understand that, well, that, and a lot of things that then are translated in pointless and unending talking.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 12, 2017 19:22:37 GMT
Kind of silly that we take today's politics and try and place them on characters are living in times that orphanages/slaves are acceptable In most of the setting slavery is unacceptable as well. Oh, you mean like in real world, where slavery was slowly getting unacceptable, but there were places where not only it was accepted, but had wars fought over even in XIXth century?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 12, 2017 20:14:49 GMT
In most of the setting slavery is unacceptable as well. Oh, you mean like in real world, where slavery was slowly getting unacceptable, but there were places where not only it was accepted, but had wars fought over even in XIXth century? Okay. What does that have to do with my post? People were saying not approving of slavery goes against the setting, and I was pointing out that was not accurate.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 12, 2017 20:24:43 GMT
Oh, you mean like in real world, where slavery was slowly getting unacceptable, but there were places where not only it was accepted, but had wars fought over even in XIXth century? Okay. What does that have to do with my post? People were saying not approving of slavery goes against the setting, and I was pointing out that was not accurate. I just pointed put that there can exist worlds where slavery is not acceptable in most places while thrive in others, so the point about slavery in most of the setting being unacceptable is kinda moot - especially that in most of the setting there are other things going on that people find unacceptable: feudalism, monarchy, class and race segregation and so on.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 12, 2017 20:28:57 GMT
Okay. What does that have to do with my post? People were saying not approving of slavery goes against the setting, and I was pointing out that was not accurate. I just pointed put that there can exist worlds where slavery is not acceptable in most places while thrive in others, so the point about slavery in most of the setting being unacceptable is kinda moot - especially that in most of the setting there are other things going on that people find unacceptable: feudalism, monarchy, class and race segregation and so on. And I never disputed that. All I was disputing was the accusation that people were projecting modern thought into a setting that doesn't share that thought. The setting does share that thought.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 12, 2017 20:34:52 GMT
I just pointed put that there can exist worlds where slavery is not acceptable in most places while thrive in others, so the point about slavery in most of the setting being unacceptable is kinda moot - especially that in most of the setting there are other things going on that people find unacceptable: feudalism, monarchy, class and race segregation and so on. And I never disputed that. All I was disputing was the accusation that people were projecting modern thought into a setting that doesn't share that thought. The setting does share that thought. Yes, but applying our modernized approach towards those issues is a mistake either way. Dorian can't look at other parts of the world and say "see? They know how to build a fairer society than ours" - he can point at mages locked in towers or elves in alienates or inescapable poverty. In fact, that was sort of a point of his rant about slavery in comparison to South.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 12, 2017 20:40:00 GMT
And I never disputed that. All I was disputing was the accusation that people were projecting modern thought into a setting that doesn't share that thought. The setting does share that thought. Yes, but applying our modernized approach towards those issues is a mistake either way. Dorian can't look at other parts of the world and say "see? They know how to build a fairer society than ours" - he can point at mages locked in towers or elves in alienates or inescapable poverty. In fact, that was sort of a point of his rant about slavery in comparison to South. Again, what does this have to do with my post? You know, the one saying it isn't just modern thought but one that exists in the setting. You're arguing just to argue now.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 12, 2017 20:42:36 GMT
Aren't the majority of Thedas against slavery?
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 12, 2017 20:42:53 GMT
Yes, but applying our modernized approach towards those issues is a mistake either way. Dorian can't look at other parts of the world and say "see? They know how to build a fairer society than ours" - he can point at mages locked in towers or elves in alienates or inescapable poverty. In fact, that was sort of a point of his rant about slavery in comparison to South. Again, what does this have to do with my post? You know, the one saying it isn't just modern thought but one that exists in the setting. You're arguing just to argue now. I'm pointing out that it isn't as simple as you make it to be. This is not an argument for argument's sake.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 12, 2017 20:44:24 GMT
Again, what does this have to do with my post? You know, the one saying it isn't just modern thought but one that exists in the setting. You're arguing just to argue now. I'm pointing out that it isn't as simple as you make it to be. This is not an argument for argument's sake. It is as simple as I'm making it out to be. Fans accuse other fans of using a mindset that doesn't fit the setting. Such mindset exists in the setting. Thus, those fans making that accusation are wrong. Simple.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 12, 2017 21:21:17 GMT
I'm pointing out that it isn't as simple as you make it to be. This is not an argument for argument's sake. It is as simple as I'm making it out to be. Fans accuse other fans of using a mindset that doesn't fit the setting. Such mindset exists in the setting. Thus, those fans making that accusation are wrong. Simple. Well no, that's sort of the issue - the fact that there exist countries outside of Tevinter to whom slavery is a no-no doesn't change the fact that they still accept that slavery in Tevinter is a thing, hence even decent characters like Dorian take their time to notice that it is a problem. And not only you've argued a few days ago that Tevinter remains Thedas' most powerful country, so long as it remains a buffer between Qunari and the rest of the continent, the reality is that slavery in Tevinter will actually remain accepted by the rest, even if for the sake of political expediency. It's not like our world today, where slavery is such a no-no, that any country which would even attempt legalizing slavery would not only it'd risk isolation, but intervention.
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Post by Walter Black on Sept 12, 2017 23:17:47 GMT
It is as simple as I'm making it out to be. Fans accuse other fans of using a mindset that doesn't fit the setting. Such mindset exists in the setting. Thus, those fans making that accusation are wrong. Simple. Well no, that's sort of the issue - the fact that there exist countries outside of Tevinter to whom slavery is a no-no doesn't change the fact that they still accept that slavery in Tevinter is a thing, hence even decent characters like Dorian take their time to notice that it is a problem. And not only you've argued a few days ago that Tevinter remains Thedas' most powerful country, so long as it remains a buffer between Qunari and the rest of the continent, the reality is that slavery in Tevinter will actually remain accepted by the rest, even if for the sake of political expediency. It's not like our world today, where slavery is such a no-no, that any country which would even attempt legalizing slavery would not only it'd risk isolation, but intervention. There is also the issue of context; prior to Inquisition, Dorian lived his entire life in Tevinter. For better and worse, his experiences and specific world views were shaped by the Imperium's culture. Aside from a few social outcasts and derided literature that no one in mainstream Tevinter takes seriously, just where exactly did you expect Dorian to encounter anti-slavery views? As he stated earlier, most slave owners in his circles treated them *relatively* well, further reinforcing the propaganda that abuses were the result of individual owners, and not the institution itself. If Dorian had witnessed such treatments it would have affected him, but he didn't. The fact that he does wise up is part of his character development, but to ignore the previous culture and context is to ignore one of the main points of the character, or even the setting as a whole.
I'm some how reminded of similar statements Hanako made about Jack from Mass Effect, writing her off as just a monster. Aside from the fact that Shepard can influence Jack into becoming a better person, did you completely forget her backstory? Where exactly in all the mad scientists, fellow prisoners, con artists, cultists and pirates throughout Jack's life did she have anyone to teach her about basic morality? I'm not saying any of that excuses her behavior (or Dorian's, or anyone's), but again, context. It just seems to lazy to me to ignore the reasons why characters act the way they do, over simply assigning them morality play functions.
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Post by wickedcool on Sept 13, 2017 0:18:29 GMT
The argument is that people don't like Dorian because of it and yet city elves are in a similiar situation and its widely accepted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 14:16:16 GMT
The principal thing about Dorian is that his character is capable of being critical of the views imparted on him by his upbringing. It is not improbable for him to eventually to experience events that will change his position in respect to slavery as an institution of Tevinter society. It might even happen in DA4, and it would be an interesting subplot imo. What it could be, I am not sure, but a prolonged camaraderie experience with slaves fighting Qunari or perhaps cooperation with educated slaves that make intellectual argument against the right to possess another human being might suffice. The humanity as a whole had a hard and long period of rationalizing this dilemma, that took thousands of years, and showing Dorian coming to this pov would be incredibly interesting, because the historic characters of similar background who did were amazing people.
Edit: but it will necessitate a lot of character focus on Dorian, and since he is unlikely to be more than an advisor, we might not see it. The potential is in him however.
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Post by Walter Black on Sept 13, 2017 16:00:52 GMT
So, I've seen PC as being a Slave turned Rebel/Ex Slave for the protaganist mentioned a lot. As someone who adores the City Elf Origin with all it's built in darkness, classism, and racism, I would be pretty psyched to be a slave that rebels and leads other slaves to freedom. I think the Fog Warrior should be a companion or recurring strong NPC. There is a lot of culture to inform us about, and without ORigins which have been all but confirmed as never to exist again.... WE can't tell ourselves about that culture. I liked that story set-up in SWTOR for its Inquisitor. Would love to see a rebel coming from that background this time. Either Calpernia or a Fenris or a new character as a rallying point would be great, but I also would not mind the Liberator protagonist to have it as his or hers own personal agenda.Ugh, no. Just... no.
While I certainly want the options to free slaves and/or changing Tevinter to make their lives better, I DO NOT WANT to be railroaded into only playing the Lawful Good Hero in a supposed Role Playing Game AGAIN . It isn't just because I want to RP a ruthlessly ambitious Magister either (though that is part of it), I don't want there to be any purely good choices at all. Tevinter is one of, if not the darkest setting in Dragon Age, and the player should not be able to permanently warp that reality just because of wish fulfillment. The decision to ignore slavery should not just be LOL EVULZ , but involve pragmatism ("ending slavery is nice, but let's focus on this possible apocalypse first") or fear of what could replace it (anarchic massacres, mages killed on sight whether they supported slavery or not, or the Qunari taking everything).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 19:15:18 GMT
I liked that story set-up in SWTOR for its Inquisitor. Would love to see a rebel coming from that background this time. Either Calpernia or a Fenris or a new character as a rallying point would be great, but I also would not mind the Liberator protagonist to have it as his or hers own personal agenda.Ugh, no. Just... no.
While I certainly want the options to free slaves and/or changing Tevinter to make their lives better, I DO NOT WANT to be railroaded into only playing the Lawful Good Hero in a supposed Role Playing Game AGAIN . It isn't just because I want to RP a ruthlessly ambitious Magister either (though that is part of it), I don't want there to be any purely good choices at all. Tevinter is one of, if not the darkest setting in Dragon Age, and the player should not be able to permanently warp that reality just because of wish fulfillment. The decision to ignore slavery should not just be LOL EVULZ , but involve pragmatism ("ending slavery is nice, but let's focus on this possible apocalypse first") or fear of what could replace it (anarchic massacres, mages killed on sight whether they supported slavery or not, or the Qunari taking everything).
I was thinking about a large end of the game decision you build up towards, so you are able to do a whole-hearted slavery supporter, a pragmatist, an adventurer and a hero if you so wish. There is no reason to not have choices, or at least voice support and try the way Hawke did in DA2 in Templars vs Mages conflict. Besides, dismantling slavery does not have to be a decision made by a pure-hearted reformist either. It is a political move, and inciting revolt and bloodbath are quite evil or pragmatic motivations as well in the name of destabilizing tevinter Imperium if you are a Qun operative, or a desperate move to ward off Qunari Invasion/prevent the doctrine taking hold. Particular because Tevinter is a fairly advanced slaver society where a slave may not necessarily be mistreated beyond having a life of servitude and no choice in relocation/occupation.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 13, 2017 19:25:06 GMT
Do you suppose we might get to see more extracts from the Tome of Koslun? I have this theory that just like the teaching of Andraste, likely Koslun didn't actually say they should do all the things that the Qun claim came from him. In particular I am thinking of the attitude to mages.
Andraste never suggested mages needed to be locked up for the safety of the community or condemned blood magic. She called magic the "gift" of the Maker whereas many Chantry stalwarts call it a curse. All the southern attitudes towards mages and magic seem to have originated with the Chantry and the edicts of the 1st Divine, long after Andraste.
So what if the Qun attitude to mages was something that post-dated Koslun, or alternatively was a hang over from the Kossith era? It just seems strange to me that his travels that he used to inform his ideas about what constituted a fair and just society should have resulted in the conclusion that all mages needed to be kept under strict control, with leashes and mouths sewn shut. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if we eventually discover that he never suggested any such thing.
I would also like to get to the bottom of the Qunari idea that they do not dream (or admit to doing so) because entering the Fade is reprehensible. Is it because they knew of the belief that dreams allow people to commune with the Maker and remember him, so a religion that denies the existence of all deities would naturally want to prevent their followers from discovering any different.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 13, 2017 19:52:37 GMT
Do you suppose we might get to see more extracts from the Tome of Koslun? I have this theory that just like the teaching of Andraste, likely Koslun didn't actually say they should do all the things that the Qun claim came from him. In particular I am thinking of the attitude to mages.
Andraste never suggested mages needed to be locked up for the safety of the community or condemned blood magic. She called magic the "gift" of the Maker whereas many Chantry stalwarts call it a curse. All the southern attitudes towards mages and magic seem to have originated with the Chantry and the edicts of the 1st Divine, long after Andraste.
So what if the Qun attitude to mages was something that post-dated Koslun, or alternatively was a hang over from the Kossith era? It just seems strange to me that his travels that he used to inform his ideas about what constituted a fair and just society should have resulted in the conclusion that all mages needed to be kept under strict control, with leashes and mouths sewn shut. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if we eventually discover that he never suggested any such thing. I wouldn't be surprised if at least parts of teachings of Koslun weren't at some point... the teachings of Fen'Harel. I say so, because at least some excerpts bear similarities to his own philosophy. Then there's the fact that Solas detests the Qun, to a point where in Trespasser he can say that it offends him, and it almost sounded like it was something personal. So it's possible that the Qunari did what people across many ages did to many texts or teachings - twisted them to the point that they may even sound opposite of what they originally meant. Oh, the Qunari do seem to dream - but they will certainly deny that they do so. Remember that in Vir Dirthara they basically fooled themselves to believe that spirits aren't there... which didn't really have much effect on spirits eavesdropping on them. It's probably the same with dreaming. Heck, Bull is so freaked out by the Fade that he literally has to have crap beaten out of him to deal with it. It's not hard for people so fearful of the Fade to deny contact with it, especially if they know what happens to people who have the connection to it. It also doesn't seem to have anything to do with the Maker. We know nothing of the cult of the Maker existing anywhere outside of Thedas, and the Qunari arrived on it with their culture and beliefs already firmly formed.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 13, 2017 20:03:01 GMT
I liked that story set-up in SWTOR for its Inquisitor. Would love to see a rebel coming from that background this time. Either Calpernia or a Fenris or a new character as a rallying point would be great, but I also would not mind the Liberator protagonist to have it as his or hers own personal agenda.Ugh, no. Just... no. While I certainly want the options to free slaves and/or changing Tevinter to make their lives better, I DO NOT WANT to be railroaded into only playing the Lawful Good Hero in a supposed Role Playing Game AGAIN . It isn't just because I want to RP a ruthlessly ambitious Magister either (though that is part of it), I don't want there to be any purely good choices at all. Tevinter is one of, if not the darkest setting in Dragon Age, and the player should not be able to permanently warp that reality just because of wish fulfillment. The decision to ignore slavery should not just be LOL EVULZ , but involve pragmatism ("ending slavery is nice, but let's focus on this possible apocalypse first") or fear of what could replace it (anarchic massacres, mages killed on sight whether they supported slavery or not, or the Qunari taking everything).
Only a lawful good character can change Tevinter? I don't like to play as lawful good. Neutral good is the right way. Chaotic is the fun way. The Lawful way is very limited to my taste. But: I would LOVE to cause such kind of fear! If there's no peaceful solution, then go for the war! The war will purge that evil world...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 20:22:00 GMT
Also, well, the protagonist is already likely shoe-horned into preventing a racial purge of the realm, in opposition to Solas, the genocidal demigod. Local Tevinter politics is not going to detract from the blinding shine of that white armor. And, Orlais, Fereldain and Kirkwall are not precisely Heaven on Earth either, without any the benefit of slavery to add the obligatory dose of grimdark.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 13, 2017 20:58:21 GMT
Also, well, the protagonist is already likely shoe-horned into preventing a racial purge of the realm, in opposition to Solas, the genocidal demigod. Local Tevinter politics is not going to detract from the blinding shine of that white armor. And, Orlais, Fereldain and Kirkwall are not precisely Heaven on Earth either, without any the benefit of slavery to add the obligatory dose of grimdark. U sure? Because we don't really know how that DA4 story will go. The Inquisitor's storyline is not yet done, so the "lead them or fall" slogan ain't yet fully realized...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 13, 2017 21:17:06 GMT
Also, well, the protagonist is already likely shoe-horned into preventing a racial purge of the realm, in opposition to Solas, the genocidal demigod. Local Tevinter politics is not going to detract from the blinding shine of that white armor. And, Orlais, Fereldain and Kirkwall are not precisely Heaven on Earth either, without any the benefit of slavery to add the obligatory dose of grimdark. U sure? Because we don't really know how that DA4 story will go. The Inquisitor's story is not yet done, so the "lead them or fall" slogan ain't yet fully realized... Go, Inquisitor, go! Better the North like you bettered the South! Or make it worse like you worsened the South if that's your playstyle.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 13, 2017 21:18:00 GMT
U sure? Because we don't really know how that DA4 story will go. The Inquisitor's story is not yet done, so the "lead them or fall" slogan ain't yet fully realized... Go, Inquisitor, go! Fix the North like you fixed the South! Or... make more chaos!
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Post by phoray on Sept 14, 2017 2:11:20 GMT
I certainly don't want it to be a decision between "end Slavery and the Qun takes over" or "Don't end slavery but the Qun are rebuffed forever". Because that is two sides of a shit coin, to be honest. But the idea that you could have in game RP support of say... - Ending slavery and putting one of the charismatic leaders of that Rebellion as Head of blah blah blah so they finally get fair representation
- Ending slavery and putting YOURSELF or... A "friend" who may take advantage of your new hero status to make a little king like seat for his or herself...
- There could be saying you'll end slavery, then betraying all the Rebel leaders by telling the MAgisters. They're all slaughtered, and you get a Boon.
THAT would be RPing goodness right there.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 14, 2017 5:34:01 GMT
I wonder if DA4 will introduce the Fex since they live in Par Vollen and we might go there or are at least get really close.
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