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Post by Absafraginlootly on Sept 14, 2017 10:22:40 GMT
I wonder if DA4 will introduce the Fex since they live in Par Vollen and we might go there or are at least get really close. Well I certainly hope we get to see them eventually, i'd hate to see them go the way of the furlings in star gate, where they get name dropped a few times but you never see them or learn much of anything.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 14, 2017 11:40:52 GMT
I'm so glad you saw it that way too, Midnight. When I heard Solas saying those words on You Tube, I immediately thought "this sounds personal". I think it would be amazing if it turned out the writer of the Tome of Koslun was in fact Fen'Harel (or one an admirer/follower of his). It would also explain why he has such a cynical view of organisations; that corruption from within and without is inevitable. I do sympathise with his predicament on awakening to discover just how much worse things had got from the time of the Evanuris, even without the elven racial bias.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 14, 2017 11:51:37 GMT
I would agree that there is no reason why only a lawful good character can change Tevinter. May be you have to be lawful if you want to retain it pretty much as it is without the slavery but if you want a complete overhaul of society then that seems a far more chaotic outlook.
A lot depends on how much the writers want the setting changed and how it might affect future instalments.
I agree with this, to have such an either/or situation whereby you can only end slavery by letting the Qun win would just not work for me. There has to be a third alternative to Tevinter wins (retain slavery), Qun wins (end slavery), along the lines of XXXX changes the social makeup of Tevinter, ending slavery and thus defeating the Qun because their agents no longer have that reason to join them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 14:28:17 GMT
I would agree that there is no reason why only a lawful good character can change Tevinter. May be you have to be lawful if you want to retain it pretty much as it is without the slavery but if you want a complete overhaul of society then that seems a far more chaotic outlook. A lot depends on how much the writers want the setting changed and how it might affect future instalments. I agree with this, to have such an either/or situation whereby you can only end slavery by letting the Qun win would just not work for me. There has to be a third alternative to Tevinter wins (retain slavery), Qun wins (end slavery), along the lines of XXXX changes the social makeup of Tevinter, ending slavery and thus defeating the Qun because their agents no longer have that reason to join them. I was giving it as examples of motivations a PC can have other than "I will support freeing the slaves, because I am an LG knight." I did not suggest that as a binary option to pursue, more of a "And I think I will be inclined to free the slaves to be able to oppose Qun better" idea. I have no idea if they can do a complicated game where a player can resolve a make-up of factions in tevinter/par vollen in a "consequences" way, because it is not a final game, so carrying over the realm-changing choices is not easy. I would like to be able for the protagonist to be able to influence something at least in regards to slavery in Tevinter if we are playing in Tevinter, as I do not fancy not having any options but to accept the status quo in the name of grimdark. If we are unable to make the verse changing descisions in respect to Veil/Fade, I'd like to at least change political situation, because it's been too long since we've seen any notable consequences.
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Post by Walter Black on Sept 14, 2017 14:37:09 GMT
I'm so glad you saw it that way too, Midnight. When I heard Solas saying those words on You Tube, I immediately thought "this sounds personal". I think it would be amazing if it turned out the writer of the Tome of Koslun was in fact Fen'Harel (or one an admirer/follower of his). It would also explain why he has such a cynical view of organisations; that corruption from within and without is inevitable. I do sympathise with his predicament on awakening to discover just how much worse things had got from the time of the Evanuris, even without the elven racial bias. Nope . While I fully support the notion that Koslun's philosophies were more akin to peace and Zen anarchism over totalitarian communism, I really don't want the history of the Qun to have anything to do with Solas. Not even in dreams. First, it makes him even more needlessly memetic than he already is. More importantly, you take away a prominent Qunari figure, and the notion that any of them could come up with such ideals on their own. The fact that fact the Qunari are intelligent made them more unique. Taking that away just makes them more dumb orcs that can only poorly mimic more thoughtful civilizations.
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Post by Solas on Sept 14, 2017 15:05:19 GMT
^ same reasons I don't want the "Solas was Shartan"/"Solas guided Shartan" theories to be an actual thing
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 14, 2017 17:56:53 GMT
^ same reasons I don't want the "Solas was Shartan"/"Solas guided Shartan" theories to be an actual thing Ironically, it's "Shartan was Solas", though not in a way some people may think it is. WOT2 do pretty clearly mentions that legends of Shartan contains echo of past hero who instigated a grand rebellion... In other words, he's an amalgamation. Some of the vague things people may have remembered from ancient past were ascribed to Shartan.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 14, 2017 18:08:08 GMT
I'm so glad you saw it that way too, Midnight. When I heard Solas saying those words on You Tube, I immediately thought "this sounds personal". I think it would be amazing if it turned out the writer of the Tome of Koslun was in fact Fen'Harel (or one an admirer/follower of his). It would also explain why he has such a cynical view of organisations; that corruption from within and without is inevitable. I do sympathise with his predicament on awakening to discover just how much worse things had got from the time of the Evanuris, even without the elven racial bias. Nope . While I fully support the notion that Koslun's philosophies were more akin to peace and Zen anarchism over totalitarian communism, I really don't want the history of the Qun to have anything to do with Solas. Not even in dreams. First, it makes him even more needlessly memetic than he already is. More importantly, you take away a prominent Qunari figure, and the notion that any of them could come up with such ideals on their own. The fact that fact the Qunari are intelligent made them more unique. Taking that away just makes them more dumb orcs that can only poorly mimic more thoughtful civilizations. Solas is the pivotal character of the series AND the world, so the reverberations of his actions and potentially teachings (he had to convince people to revolt against powerful god-kings somehow) would be naturally felt across different cultures. His actions (creation of the Veil) were already attributed to at least one major Thedosian deity... And the Qunari can still be intelligent AND take inspiration from some other sources. It wouldn't be the first time it happened, in fact this is how it usually is. So no matter if Koslun's teachings were influenced by somebody else's, they're still a force to be seriously reckoned with and many of their ideas have a chance to enrich populace as a whole, if they can be severed from the rigid zealotry. Still - we have some reasons to suspect that Qunari might have been conditioned to be how they are and how their culture is, so I don't know if the whole "they came with this on their own" point is defensible. We'll have to wait and see what plot twists await us in future chapters.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 14, 2017 19:13:09 GMT
Unfortunately the writers do seem to want to tie Solas into everything. Why couldn't they let Shartan just stand on his own as an elven hero of a later era? Instead they spoil the Shartan legend in the introduction to the Canticle of Shartan by having scholars suggest that may be he wasn't a real historical figure (even though we met him in the Gauntlet so what was that all about?) and then making an obvious reference Fen'Harel when mentioning the elven folktale about a "trickster warrior who fought against tyrants". What makes this last part even odder is that apparently the elven slaves remembered this folk tale and yet never made the association with Fen'Harel even though he is known to them as a trickster.
So whilst I sympathise with the idea of not wanting Solas to be tied into every major influential historical figure, if they are going to S**t on elven culture in this way and reduce the importance of Shartan more than they had already (considering the Dalish never even mentioned him by name in the Warden origin), then let every other major cultural figure be similarly reduced by the Chantry "scholars and historians".
To be honest I preferred it when we didn't know if the elven gods were real or not and were something that elves looked back to nostalgically as a mythical idealised pre-history but were determined to preserve as part of their culture against human oppression. Instead the Dalish are apparently idiots for fondly remembering their slave masters whilst denigrating their liberator. If they had a collective racial amnesia when it came to the past why would it be different for anyone else? The dwarves have apparently forgotten their links to the Titans (or covered it up for whatever reason), so it only follows that the qunari will be next on the list for culture shattering revelations.
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Post by brandoftime on Sept 14, 2017 20:04:21 GMT
It's the George Lucas effect, everyone is somehow related, somehow they are all just there at the right time . . . it all comes back full circle. I wish elven lore had more than just Solas as the tied in cause of everything.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 14, 2017 20:56:29 GMT
It's the George Lucas effect, everyone is somehow related, somehow they are all just there at the right time . . . it all comes back full circle. I wish elven lore had more than just Solas as the tied in cause of everything. Hard to not be a tied to 'everything' when Solas has effectively created Thedas as we know it. However, I wouldn't say we're at a point in time to decide that Solas is indeed tied to 'everything', as we only really start scratching the surface. There are thousands of years of lost history, mysterious beings and other more or less mysterious factions we haven't yet explored, nevermind a whole world outside of known Thedas. Mythal herself was an engine of events starting way before the 1st game and she is likely tied as much, if not more, as Solas is.
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Post by mattjamho on Sept 14, 2017 23:27:41 GMT
It makes the world feel very small when they do things like that. Basically nearly every piece of ancient history in Thedas boils down to 'The Elves did it'.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 14, 2017 23:45:18 GMT
It makes the world feel very small when they do things like that. Basically nearly every piece of ancient history in Thedas boils down to 'The Elves did it'. If it is true that elves once inhabited every known place in the world, then it's hardly small. I mean... does our world feels small, even though it's inhabited by 'only' 8 billion people? We're living in near-official Anthropocene epoch as of right now - that means that our impact on Earth is so profound it will likely be palpable even loooong after we're gone. And if elves ever achieved similar civilization level (which they likely did, with a difference being that their technology was magic-based) that means that it's only natural for elves to leave a notable mark on pretty much everything that came after them. And that's just - or 'just' - elves. We don't know the racial dynamics prior to the Veil or shortly after. Though we do know of Titans and how they can potentially shape the Earth literally and at enormous scale.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Sept 15, 2017 0:40:37 GMT
I'm sure atleast some of the answers must be 'titans did it'
Probably a few 'dragons did it' out there too. : p
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Post by phoray on Sept 15, 2017 3:00:54 GMT
I'm sure atleast some of the answers must be 'titans did it' Probably a few 'dragons did it' out there too. : p I was going to add "Flemeth did it" -- then remembered that she's possessed by an elven Goddess. But also, seemingly, the memories of all the host bodies are still having an effect too. That was not Flemeth's body, but she called herself Flemeth, and had dialogue that implied she used to be the Flemeth of Highever, of Conobar. I sometimes wonder if there is much left of Mythal at all, but instead, an amalgamation of memories glues together with a feeling of Vengeance. Especially after at least one soul fracture (DA2 Locket)
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Post by Solas on Sept 15, 2017 3:44:44 GMT
Solas needs to go in timeout for a while
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Post by eskiya on Sept 15, 2017 3:44:54 GMT
I'm sure atleast some of the answers must be 'titans did it' Probably a few 'dragons did it' out there too. : p I was going to add "Flemeth did it" -- then remembered that she's possessed by an elven Goddess. But also, seemingly, the memories of all the host bodies are still having an effect too. That was not Flemeth's body, but she called herself Flemeth, and had dialogue that implied she used to be the Flemeth of Highever, of Conobar. I sometimes wonder if there is much left of Mythal at all, but instead, an amalgamation of memories glues together with a feeling of Vengeance. Especially after at least one soul fracture (DA2 Locket) You bring up a good point; It's possible that Mythal/Flemeth made a habit of sending off 'small pieces' of herself to different places in order to survive or spread her influence. So...did Solas only take a small piece of her, thus is she still roaming around Thedas somewhere? Then again, if you shred something into too many pieces, it may never be able to be put back together again...so is she even Mythal anymore in the first place? I think there was dialogue saying she wasn't entirely Mythal...?
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Post by mattjamho on Sept 15, 2017 11:02:01 GMT
It makes the world feel very small when they do things like that. Basically nearly every piece of ancient history in Thedas boils down to 'The Elves did it'. If it is true that elves once inhabited every known place in the world, then it's hardly small. I mean... does our world feels small, even though it's inhabited by 'only' 8 billion people? We're living in near-official Anthropocene epoch as of right now - that means that our impact on Earth is so profound it will likely be palpable even loooong after we're gone. And if elves ever achieved similar civilization level (which they likely did, with a difference being that their technology was magic-based) that means that it's only natural for elves to leave a notable mark on pretty much everything that came after them. And that's just - or 'just' - elves. We don't know the racial dynamics prior to the Veil or shortly after. Though we do know of Titans and how they can potentially shape the Earth literally and at enormous scale. I guess we'll agree to disagree. It could be I feel this way as there has been a lot of focus on ancient elven lore in the last game. Maybe when they start exploring Tevinter, or dwarven history, or quanri history I'll feel differently.
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Post by brandoftime on Sept 15, 2017 12:31:09 GMT
The Qunari still have a lot of mystery behind them. In the lore, you get the idea they were coming from something that had driven them away. And there's the mysterious faction across the sea (war table mission) and the 'Scaled ones'. Plus, what about the imobilized mechs that are littered all over the Western Approach landscape and the lore saying they once moved and talked to people? Maybe they were created to counter a threat still unknown? And gryphons There's so much they can do with it, I just hope Solas doesn't turn out to be the Maker along with everything else.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Sept 15, 2017 12:37:10 GMT
I'm pretty sure one of the devs mentioned, once upon a time, that they were never going to confirm or deny the existence of the Maker. So whatever he is, Solas definitely isn't that.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 15, 2017 18:26:09 GMT
When you think about it, though, there has been a case of collective racial amnesia. Either that or all along the line there have been a series of cover-ups to hide what really happened.
Abelas and his sentinels are apparently aware of what happened in the past, although we didn't really get to question Abelas enough about what he knew. Where the Willows Wail having found its way into Alamarri war poetry would suggest that there were elves who did remember what happened and either passed this tradition onto the human barbarians or in fact it was a shared history. What happened to these elves? Why are the modern elves only those who were captured by Tevinter and subsequently freed?
Elgar'nan and Mythal seem to have had much to do with the Titans and either directly or indirectly seem responsible for the dwarves in their modern form.
There seem strong hints from the mosaics, which seem to reflect an earlier history re-purposed by later Magisters to make claims for themselves, that the Evanuris were likely responsible for the Kossith.
Given all these things, plus Solas creating the Veil, I find it hard to believe that any race worshipped the Maker, much less that the Maker exists. The writers always maintained they would never say whether he did or not, but when you produce so much evidence that contradicts the idea of the Maker, at least as shown in the Chant of Light, then effectively that is the same as saying he does not exist in any meaningful way.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 15, 2017 18:45:18 GMT
When you think about it, though, there has been a case of collective racial amnesia. Either that or all along the line there have been a series of cover-ups to hide what really happened. Abelas and his sentinels are apparently aware of what happened in the past, although we didn't really get to question Abelas enough about what he knew. Where the Willows Wail having found its way into Alamarri war poetry would suggest that there were elves who did remember what happened and either passed this tradition onto the human barbarians or in fact it was a shared history. What happened to these elves? Why are the modern elves only those who were captured by Tevinter and subsequently freed? Elgar'nan and Mythal seem to have had much to do with the Titans and either directly or indirectly seem responsible for the dwarves in their modern form. There seem strong hints from the mosaics, which seem to reflect an earlier history re-purposed by later Magisters to make claims for themselves, that the Evanuris were likely responsible for the Kossith. Given all these things, plus Solas creating the Veil, I find it hard to believe that any race worshipped the Maker, much less that the Maker exists. The writers always maintained they would never say whether he did or not, but when you produce so much evidence that contradicts the idea of the Maker, at least as shown in the Chant of Light, then effectively that is the same as saying he does not exist in any meaningful way. The Fade is a domain of memory and we've seen it being manipulated or even collected and feasted upon (Nightmare), so tampering with memory of whole populations is not a feat that would be impossible in Thedas. Anyway - I think that what the devs meant is that they will likely never reveal if there is an ultimate deity. That doesn't mean that they can't deconstruct the idea of the Maker, at least one the Chantry believes in. And we already know that at least one of things that were attributed to him (creation of the Veil) is false.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 15, 2017 18:52:04 GMT
I'm pretty sure one of the devs mentioned, once upon a time, that they were never going to confirm or deny the existence of the Maker. So whatever he is, Solas definitely isn't that. Yeah, David Gaider said that they were never going to reveal whether the Maker is real or not for various reasons.
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Post by tacsear on Sept 15, 2017 20:22:48 GMT
That's sad. No Maker means no Morgan Freeman cameo.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 15, 2017 21:29:38 GMT
Good point. In fact in Masked Empire Imshael says that is something he can do with regard to Michel's history and whilst that is on a small scale, it does set a precedent within the setting that could be scaled up to a grander scale if the perpetrator(s) had sufficient knowledge and power to do so.
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