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Post by Fredward on Feb 3, 2018 5:32:41 GMT
God I hope not. Bad enough the Briala-Celene reconciliation was even possible in Inquisition, but to actually endorse that parasitic toxicity as canon? Even if players can rewrite in the Keep, would the writers even think about the kind of message that sends? The default world state has Celene ruling alone, not reconciled with Briala. Besides, I don't think that putting something in the default world state really counts as endorsing it. I don't think BioWare advocate ignoring Jaws of Hakkon and The Descent or doing as few side quests as possible in the main game. That world state is just meant to give people who are new to the franchise the simplest possible set of outcomes so they don't spend too much time interacting with characters and story choices they have no reason to care about. And frankly, for me, if it was a choice between toxic aspects of relationships being present in a game vs simply being absent cuz its representation might be problematic or upsetting then I'd always prefer it being present. It makes for a more compelling story and I dislike the idea of things being removed because it might be uncomfortable to talk about. What I would have done with Briala and Celene is expand more on exactly what went down between the two so that the player could make a genuinely informed decision. If the writers' decided that it's within both characters wheelhouse to be able to reconcile, regardless of how good/healthy idea it is, then that absolutely should be an option.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 3, 2018 6:09:31 GMT
The default world state has Celene ruling alone, not reconciled with Briala. Besides, I don't think that putting something in the default world state really counts as endorsing it. I don't think BioWare advocate ignoring Jaws of Hakkon and The Descent or doing as few side quests as possible in the main game. That world state is just meant to give people who are new to the franchise the simplest possible set of outcomes so they don't spend too much time interacting with characters and story choices they have no reason to care about. And frankly, for me, if it was a choice between toxic aspects of relationships being present in a game vs simply being absent cuz its representation might be problematic or upsetting then I'd always prefer it being present. It makes for a more compelling story and I dislike the idea of things being removed because it might be uncomfortable to talk about. What I would have done with Briala and Celene is expand more on exactly what went down between the two so that the player could make a genuinely informed decision. If the writers' decided that it's within both characters wheelhouse to be able to reconcile, regardless of how good/healthy idea it is, then that absolutely should be an option. Well, you are going to make a more informed decision... if you read the book. Now, I understand what you're saying that perhaps there should be more information for people who didn't, but for me DA was never a self-contained story and it depended on people knowing about things beyond the game, or even playthrough, they were playing.
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Post by Fredward on Feb 3, 2018 7:02:05 GMT
Well, you are going to make a more informed decision... if you read the book. Now, I understand what you're saying that perhaps there should be more information for people who didn't, but for me DA was never a self-contained story and it depended on people knowing about things beyond the game, or even playthrough, they were playing. Meh. I'm the kind of person who either reads the extra material or reads the wiki entries on the extra material but it seems like unnecessarily hard-edged commercialism to be like "Well, if you didn't want to encourage her to hook up with her abusive ex maybe you should have read the book~" There's no reason their history couldn't have been expanded a bit through Codex entries or court gossip or something, it definitely wouldn't have detracted from the story.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 3, 2018 13:48:55 GMT
I don't think it matters much, and I say this as someone who detests the way Celene treated Briala. The fact is that the Inquisitor didn't read the Masked Empire and has no reason to know the dirty details of the Empress's love life. You're just trying to find a butt for the throne, not be Brialene's marriage counselor.
There are people who kill/spare Loghain, the Architect, etc. without reading the books and knowing their backstory.
That said, I have zero problem with information like this being in the books and comics. I absorb Dragon Age like a sponge and all "important" info being restricted to the games makes for a very looooong and boring wait between sequels. I'd rather have something to chew on than some fluffy filler (LOOKIN AT U, MAGEKILLER).
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Post by phoray on Feb 3, 2018 14:36:56 GMT
There are people who kill/spare Loghain, the Architect, etc. without reading the books and knowing their backstory. I killed loghain and spared the architect. But man o man, was I ticked when the Mother told me I'd allied with someone that started the Blight. Then I read the book and I was like.... NEVER SPARING HIM AGAIN. (although then I RP heavy heavy now, so my last Warden I played through Awakening spared him.) but the fact is, by letting the Mother tell you, you didn't need to have read the books and it was MEANT to be a surprise betrayal. So much about Cole and the Winter Palace and what the Mage Templar War was really about was all in a book. When I started DAI for the first time, I thought the war was because of what Anders did. When it had little to do with him really. I'd rather have something to chew on than some fluffy filler (LOOKIN AT U, MAGEKILLER). I didn't find that most recent comic to be all that chewey either. I wonder why they are stepping away from full books. Afraid they'll dig in too deep and then have to backtrack? I liked or hated all of the book characters, which meant they had Form to like or dislike. The comics are so flashy, we don't learn as much about the characters. Although i will say I do dislike the city elf recently depicted in a "please don't let her be a companion, romance option next time, please" kinda way. Kinda hoping they introduced these characters in comic form as a sort of "testing the waters" for DA4 way.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 3, 2018 14:45:34 GMT
I killed loghain and spared the architect. But man o man, was I ticked when the Mother told me I'd allied with someone that started the Blight. Then I read the book and I was like.... NEVER SPARING HIM AGAIN. (although then I RP heavy heavy now, so my last Warden I played through Awakening spared him.) Right! But the Warden-Commander isn't privy to all those details in the book, so it makes for an interesting dilemma. It makes you wonder how the Inquisition crew would judge Anders or Loghain, since they have a totally different perspective from the cast of those games. How well you know a person - and their justifications - can make all the difference in the world. I loved Vaea, but I see what you mean. I like the books more than I like the comics, too... they seem more substantial. And definitely chewier wrt lore, considering certain revelations in Last Flight, Asunder, etc. I'd really like another book to help set the stage for DA4. Like how TME had Felassan working for Solas, it'd be cool to focus on, say, a qunari spy character or a soporati in Tevinter, viewing the setup for DA4's conflict through their eyes.
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Post by phoray on Feb 3, 2018 14:53:05 GMT
Like how TME had Felassan working for Solas haha now now. If I'd read the book BEFORE DAI, I'd have had no clue the significance of it all. I would have been like...weird death by leader is weird death by leader. so if they did release a book with something as subtle as that, it wouldn't help me prepare for DA4 at all It'd be cool if they followed a family like the Couslands in the book. And then one of the Protag options, maybe the mage noble, would be related to them in some way. it'd be like getting an Origin story in book form, but still be free to decide how you relate to them (love them, black sheep, you only see them at Family Reuniions and you haven't been to one since you were 7)
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 3, 2018 16:08:53 GMT
I don't think it matters much, and I say this as someone who detests the way Celene treated Briala. The fact is that the Inquisitor didn't read the Masked Empire and has no reason to know the dirty details of the Empress's love life. You're just trying to find a butt for the throne, not be Brialene's marriage counselor. There are people who kill/spare Loghain, the Architect, etc. without reading the books and knowing their backstory. I'm usually against meta-gaming, but within the context of Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, it made ZERO sense for Briala not to inform the Inquisitor of Celene's true nature herself. At the end the of The Masked Empire Briala finally realized that Celene would never truly change, that she and the elves would never have any positive growth under the Empress. She could have made Inky understand how truly duplicitous and sociopathic Celene is, but instead she came off like a scorned ex. If the writers were really worried about lesbian representation, then they should have had Briala join a new woman in an honest, healthy and loving relationship, rather than whitewash her old abuser.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 3, 2018 17:02:32 GMT
I don't think it matters much, and I say this as someone who detests the way Celene treated Briala. The fact is that the Inquisitor didn't read the Masked Empire and has no reason to know the dirty details of the Empress's love life. You're just trying to find a butt for the throne, not be Brialene's marriage counselor. There are people who kill/spare Loghain, the Architect, etc. without reading the books and knowing their backstory. I'm usually against meta-gaming, but within the context of Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, it made ZERO sense for Briala not to inform the Inquisitor of Celene's true nature herself. At the end the of The Masked Empire Briala finally realized that Celene would never truly change, that she and the elves would never have any positive growth under the Empress. She could have made Inky understand how truly duplicitous and sociopathic Celene is, but instead she came off like a scorned ex. If the writers were really worried about lesbian representation, then they should have had Briala join a new woman in an honest, healthy and loving relationship, rather than whitewash her old abuser. God forbid lesbian romances being as messy and complicated as any other can be...
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 3, 2018 17:08:33 GMT
I don't think it matters much, and I say this as someone who detests the way Celene treated Briala. The fact is that the Inquisitor didn't read the Masked Empire and has no reason to know the dirty details of the Empress's love life. You're just trying to find a butt for the throne, not be Brialene's marriage counselor. There are people who kill/spare Loghain, the Architect, etc. without reading the books and knowing their backstory. I'm usually against meta-gaming, but within the context of Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, it made ZERO sense for Briala not to inform the Inquisitor of Celene's true nature herself. At the end the of The Masked Empire Briala finally realized that Celene would never truly change, that she and the elves would never have any positive growth under the Empress. She could have made Inky understand how truly duplicitous and sociopathic Celene is, but instead she came off like a scorned ex. If the writers were really worried about lesbian representation, then they should have had Briala join a new woman in an honest, healthy and loving relationship, rather than whitewash her old abuser. I figure it's a combination of Briala's lingering affection for Celene (despite everything) and a public mask - she's a master of the Game and isn't about to break down in public. Unlike me lmao. I'd just bust in and tear Celene a new asshole in front of everyone, but I also hate political boot-licking and I'd be terrible at the Game sooo... I think they've been trying to make amends for the trend of abusive lesbian relationships, what with introducting Sera/Dagna and Tessa/Charter.
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Post by Fredward on Feb 3, 2018 18:59:33 GMT
There's no real reason Briala would share deep, personal details with a person she literally just met at a Ball where she's plotting the fate of an empire. I hate the let-me-share-my-darkest-secrets-with-Protag thing anyway. Besides, most of the decisions Celene made are the kind of big picture pragmatism you'd expect from a ruler (except that killing her parents part but yah know, ambition and so forth). The Inquisitor isn't there to play marriage counselor they're there to make sure Orlais stays on its feet.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 3, 2018 22:20:19 GMT
I was reading this thread on reddit and two of the comments caught my eye: Oh lawd, can you imagine? Sorry world, I can't kill Sera's wife.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 3, 2018 23:03:36 GMT
I was reading this thread on reddit and two of the comments caught my eye: Oh lawd, can you imagine? Sorry world, I can't kill Sera's wife. This would be an easy choice for me, bye bye Solas, I hate your guts. And furthermore, since BW loves throwing away old protagonists like used goods, I won't rule out the possibility of letting the Inquisitor die in DA4. Or any other beloved character from the franchise (coughcoughDoriancoughcough). But maybe the possibility of killing Solas is enough '' emotional drama '' for one game. But I definitely do not want BW to write Solas as some sort of a lord and saviour in the end. Trespasser made him a '' sympathetic villain '' and that is quite enough, DA4 (or 5??) should focus on showing what a madman he truly is, and how focused he is to destroy everything in order to achieve his goal. This won't happen though, sadly.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Feb 4, 2018 0:56:54 GMT
^ Considering that he might not actually be a madman, I think you are correct. Yes, wanting to possibly kill everyone to achieve your goals is about as far from cool as it's possible to get. But I think there might be something else going on that we aren't privy to yet. We'll find out eventually.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 4, 2018 7:37:31 GMT
I was reading this thread on reddit and two of the comments caught my eye: Oh lawd, can you imagine? Sorry world, I can't kill Sera's wife. This would be an easy choice for me, bye bye Solas, I hate your guts. And furthermore, since BW loves throwing away old protagonists like used goods, I won't rule out the possibility of letting the Inquisitor die in DA4. Or any other beloved character from the franchise (coughcoughDoriancoughcough). But maybe the possibility of killing Solas is enough '' emotional drama '' for one game. But I definitely do not want BW to write Solas as some sort of a lord and saviour in the end. Trespasser made him a '' sympathetic villain '' and that is quite enough, DA4 (or 5??) should focus on showing what a madman he truly is, and how focused he is to destroy everything in order to achieve his goal. This won't happen though, sadly. Well... what if he isn't? I mean - he's already 'lord and saviour', if the Veil did indeed went up specifically to save the world from something worse (and so far it shapes up to be this way). Ultimately I don't think it's a black-and-white issue and Solas is neither a spotless hero, nor a mad villain. I wouldn't be surprised if we learned enough about the situation to even come to a conclusion that 'damn, what he does actually makes sense', but may advocate and search for a better solution that Solas himself has written off as unlikely, for whatever reason. Orrrr - and I sort of hope that it may be a possibility - we may be put in a situation where we'd be forced to make a similarly drastic decision, or perhaps even embrace specific means to an end, thus turning into villains - or 'villains' - ourselves.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 4, 2018 9:24:27 GMT
This would be an easy choice for me, bye bye Solas, I hate your guts. And furthermore, since BW loves throwing away old protagonists like used goods, I won't rule out the possibility of letting the Inquisitor die in DA4. Or any other beloved character from the franchise (coughcoughDoriancoughcough). But maybe the possibility of killing Solas is enough '' emotional drama '' for one game. But I definitely do not want BW to write Solas as some sort of a lord and saviour in the end. Trespasser made him a '' sympathetic villain '' and that is quite enough, DA4 (or 5??) should focus on showing what a madman he truly is, and how focused he is to destroy everything in order to achieve his goal. This won't happen though, sadly. Well... what if he isn't? I mean - he's already 'lord and saviour', if the Veil did indeed went up specifically to save the world from something worse (and so far it shapes up to be this way). Ultimately I don't think it's a black-and-white issue and Solas is neither a spotless hero, nor a mad villain. I wouldn't be surprised if we learned enough about the situation to even come to a conclusion that 'damn, what he does actually makes sense', but may advocate and search for a better solution that Solas himself has written off as unlikely, for whatever reason. Orrrr - and I sort of hope that it may be a possibility - we may be put in a situation where we'd be forced to make a similarly drastic decision, or perhaps even embrace specific means to an end, thus turning into villains - or 'villains' - ourselves. Well I'm going to be real here, I'm 10000000% biased because I hate Solas, and really everything he stands for. So putting me in a place where I'd have to agree with him or think of him as anything else except a self-serving hypocritical madman would be extremely uncomfortable, as childish as that is to say. He is already set out to be a '' sympathetic villain '' as I said, I don't really need more of it BUT THAT IS NOT TO SAY IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I'm not really looking at this from a '' clever, immersive story and world building '' point of view but a '' this character freaking disgusts me '' point of view lol. But would Solas being absolutely wrong in absolutely everything be bad writing? I'm not sure if there's a possibility to make such a drastic decision that'd make us the villain, because it would affect the story and the world so much. I mean I guess it could happen if it caused the protagonist to die as well, but otherwise I have a hard time visualizing it.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 4, 2018 9:43:46 GMT
Well... what if he isn't? I mean - he's already 'lord and saviour', if the Veil did indeed went up specifically to save the world from something worse (and so far it shapes up to be this way). Ultimately I don't think it's a black-and-white issue and Solas is neither a spotless hero, nor a mad villain. I wouldn't be surprised if we learned enough about the situation to even come to a conclusion that 'damn, what he does actually makes sense', but may advocate and search for a better solution that Solas himself has written off as unlikely, for whatever reason. Orrrr - and I sort of hope that it may be a possibility - we may be put in a situation where we'd be forced to make a similarly drastic decision, or perhaps even embrace specific means to an end, thus turning into villains - or 'villains' - ourselves. Well I'm going to be real here, I'm 10000000% biased because I hate Solas, and really everything he stands for. So putting me in a place where I'd have to agree with him or think of him as anything else except a self-serving hypocritical madman would be extremely uncomfortable, as childish as that is to say. He is already set out to be a '' sympathetic villain '' as I said, I don't really need more of it BUT THAT IS NOT TO SAY IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I'm not really looking at this from a '' clever, immersive story and world building '' point of view but a '' this character freaking disgusts me '' point of view lol. But would Solas being absolutely wrong in absolutely everything be bad writing? I don't know - but it'd be something that the current writing simply didn't set up. I mean, I have little doubt that the story is probably getting us towards Solas being wrong on some level - heck, Solas himself tells befriended Inquisitor pretty explicitly that he's been wrong before, Inquisitor has proven him wrong already and that he wants to be proven wrong when it comes to the fate of the world. But I don't think he was ever meant to be a character who is absolutely wrong about absolutely everything. And I can't help that you dislike the character, nor I will set out on a mission to change your mind, lol. But I suppose you can take comfort in the fact that the character you're hating has at least a potential (or potential world-state) of staying a villain, instead of being portrayed by the story as someone who's totally in the right and with whom we're supposed to ally in the end, or something. Well, it really depends how the story would be written. I can imagine potential scenarios in which it is entirely possible to become a villain/make all the wrong decisions and end up in a world-state that is still workable in future chapters. I mean, it's not like Dragon Age follows one, fixed protagonist in all its chapters Of course, the chances of interesting scenario in which our decisions lead to our protag becoming a baddie/an obstacle rises if there's more than one PC...
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 4, 2018 18:55:50 GMT
I don't think Solas is mad or crazy. I think he's perfectly lucid and knows exactly what he plans on doing.
It's just super-duper unfortunate that what he's plans on doing is committing mass murder and genocide in some revanchist plot to bring back his people.
A real shame that.
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Post by Faust on Feb 4, 2018 21:41:24 GMT
I think he's perfectly lucid and knows exactly what he plans on doing. As much as when he doomed the elvhen race and when he gave his orb to a blighted magister.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 4, 2018 22:22:00 GMT
I think he's perfectly lucid and knows exactly what he plans on doing. As much as when he doomed the elvhen race and when he gave his orb to a blighted magister. That's stupidity, not insanity.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 4, 2018 22:37:29 GMT
As much as when he doomed the elvhen race and when he gave his orb to a blighted magister. That's stupidity, not insanity. If every other alternative to the Veil was worse then it as a solution, even with its bad side effects - possibly yet revertible - ain't stupidity. More desperation in face of probably very limited options. The decision to 'give' to orb blighted magister may have been in similar tone, given that Solas woke too weak to open it, yet seems to be doing something on a fairly tight schedule.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 4, 2018 22:45:32 GMT
That's stupidity, not insanity. If every other alternative to the Veil was worse then it as a solution, even with its bad side effects - and possibly yet revertible - ain't stupidity. More desperation in face of probably very limited options. The decision to 'give' to orb blighted magister may have been in similar tone, given that Solas woke too weak to open it, yet seems to be doing something on a fairly tight schedule. Yeah, that's true for the former. The Elven gods were going to destroy the world after all. The latter though just seems like asinine decision that could have easily backfired and did. Plus, Solas realizing that the only way for his plan to work was to give an all-powerful artificial to a Blighted monster should have been a wake-up call that all of this wasn't really worth it and maybe I should try to help and enlighten the present elves again.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 4, 2018 23:03:32 GMT
Yeah, that's true for the former. The Elven gods were going to destroy the world after all. The latter though just seems like asinine decision that could have easily backfired and did. Plus, Solas realizing that the only way for his plan to work was to give an all-powerful artificial to a Blighted monster should have been a wake-up call that all of this wasn't really worth it and maybe I should try to help and enlighten the present elves again. One thing doesn't seem to follow another. What makes you think that 'enlightening the elves' would have in any way the same effect as opening the orb? Especially that Solas (and Flemythal and some other characters) does throw hints from time to time that whatever will come, it will be coming fairly soon. So I don't think there's time for enlightenment. Plus, we know from Solas and the fact that he had agents like Felassan in touch with elves for however long that he indeed attempted to contact and share his knowledge. It's possible that those (seemingly mostly) failed attempts may have convinced Solas that there's no other way than to continue with his world-reshaping plan. Then there's also a question of whether enlightenment is even possible. Solas did compare modern people to being like Tranquil - not a literal comparison perhaps, but considering that he mentions that the Veil 'has cut most people's conscious connection to the Fade' there has to be some sort of similarity. And we know that, while Tranquility can be reversed, Tranquils can't really return to their old selves without some drastic rituals.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 4, 2018 23:33:08 GMT
Yeah, that's true for the former. The Elven gods were going to destroy the world after all. The latter though just seems like asinine decision that could have easily backfired and did. Plus, Solas realizing that the only way for his plan to work was to give an all-powerful artificial to a Blighted monster should have been a wake-up call that all of this wasn't really worth it and maybe I should try to help and enlighten the present elves again. One thing doesn't seem to follow another. What makes you think that 'enlightening the elves' would have in any way the same effect as opening the orb? Especially that Solas (and Flemythal and some other characters) does throw hints from time to time that whatever will come, it will be coming fairly soon. So I don't think there's time for enlightenment. Plus, we know from Solas and the fact that he had agents like Felassan in touch with elves for however long that he indeed attempted to contact and share his knowledge. It's possible that those (seemingly mostly) failed attempts may have convinced Solas that there's no other way than to continue with his world-reshaping plan. Then there's also a question of whether enlightenment is even possible. Solas did compare modern people to being like Tranquil - not a literal comparison perhaps, but considering that he mentions that the Veil 'has cut most people's conscious connection to the Fade' there has to be some sort of similarity. And we know that, while Tranquility can be reversed, Tranquils can't really return to their old selves without some drastic rituals. Who cares about opening the orb? And who cares if he failed once, twice, three times or hundred times. He should have still kept trying. Just because you failed to help people at first doesn't mean you should just clear the board (read: commit genocide) and start over. Also, connecting elves back to Fade isn't necessary to helping them or enlighten them. I'm sure Solas thinks that way but their are other problems for elves that he could have made better without destroying the Veil. I mean, he complains to Sera about the Red Jennies but he doesn't really put his money where is mouth is and focus on helping elves, slaves, human peasants, mages, stopping the Qun, etc. That's all secondary to his genocidal "world-shaping plan" which is the real tragedy of his character.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 5, 2018 0:20:08 GMT
Who cares about opening the orb? And who cares if he failed once, twice, three times or hundred times. He should have still kept trying. Just because you failed to help people at first doesn't mean you should just clear the board (read: commit genocide) and start over. Also, connecting elves back to Fade isn't necessary to helping them or enlighten them. We both know that there are situations in life where 'just keep trying' is either not enough or an empty phrase. Whether this is such a situation remains to be seen, but there's no reason to assume at this point that there's no way that it isn't. We do know that crappy dilemmas, including potential genocides, are things even Bioware protagonists (who are supposed to be heroes overall) were standing before, and will likely stand in the future. No reason to assume that Bioware antagonists can't - in fact their position as non-hero/non-protag lets writers put them in even crappier situations with no clear way out. Why assume that he didn't? The whole TME was about his agent interfering into earthly affairs to try and help, on his orders (at least until Felassan disobeyed him at the very end) and we have no idea whatsoever how much he helped or interfered in the past - but I assume the imagery of wolves popping up everywhere, including in Fereldan culture (or the fact that the wolf is considered a sacred animal among ancient Alamarri, who believe that it's a guide and protector of mankind sent by gods) possibly ain't really that much of a coincidence. Plus, well... we know of at least one instance where he indeed helped to stop the Qun. In Trespasser. In fact, without him going out of his way to help even disliked Inquisitor, both our protag as well as the rest of Southern leadership would have been pulverized in preparation for the imminent invasion. The tragedy of Solas lays mostly in irony. Someone deemed a betrayer who himself was likely betrayed, a savior who had/has to destroy, among other things.
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