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Post by Fredward on Feb 5, 2018 4:44:23 GMT
The only thing wrong with Solas mentally or psychologically is his ego. How many people do you know who caused a genocide, went on to regret it, and then immediately start plotting the next one to fix the old one because they're still entirely sure that they are correct? The utter, complete confidence you have to have in the flawlessness of your own reasoning, of your position and the perspective it grants you, of you knowing and understanding every possible permutation that can happen and that you've definitely chosen the best course of action this time, is staggering. His ego is such that he literally adopts the name Solas so that he can display that he's aware of his ego, his situation, how it reflects on him, this crucible of his own making but he's also correct so he's gonna carry this heavy weight regardless of how people may misunderstand, demonize and hate him (he probably beneficently absolves them of this because they don't know everything like he does, they are but simple people reaching for the narrative that would make things make sense and if that paints him as the villain then so be, it's no less than he deserves he adds graciously) because he, ultimately, knows what is best.
Dork.
All this doesn't mean he's wrong or doesn't have genuine reasons for what he's doing beyond his intrinsic self-involvement, just that's absolutely awful in addition to that.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 5, 2018 5:02:05 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised if Solas' plan backfires by ending up banishing himself to wherever, but releases the evanuris to be dealt with by the main character and others
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Post by phoray on Feb 5, 2018 13:52:15 GMT
As much as when he doomed the elvhen race and when he gave his orb to a blighted magister. That's stupidity, not insanity. Lucid stupidity is a very constant daily thing for lots of the world.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 5, 2018 17:36:43 GMT
The only thing wrong with Solas mentally or psychologically is his ego. How many people do you know who caused a genocide, went on to regret it, and then immediately start plotting the next one to fix the old one because they're still entirely sure that they are correct? I don't know how many people do that - what I do know is that this ain't exactly the case of that here. And I have no idea why many people misconstrue his motivations like that, given our conversation in Trespasser, where he explicitly tells us that he created the Veil as the last resort. Given that, portraying his actions as ones he later regrets simply misses the mark. He doesn't paint the Veil as some sort of his grand plan that went wrong, but as last ditch effort he was forced to deploy. Inquisitor has a chance to point out that Solas loves the Fade and even for that reason alone it's confusing as to why Solas would want to push it all away - to which he responds that every other alternative was worse. Ergo: he was never happy to create the Veil in the first place and seems to hate himself for ever doing it. But he thought, for whatever reason (probably having something to do with a bunch of god-kings drunk on power after they just murdered one of them to steal even more power), that he had no choice but to do that. He might have hoped that it would go better - especially considering that it came with deep personal sacrifices as well. But whatever the Veil was supposed to accomplish, given revelations in Trespasser, there's no reason to assume that it was supposed to be the 'final solution' and that Solas just came to regret it, only to start planning how to fix this mistake. The plan to eventually remove (or do something else to) the Veil might have been there from the start, which would explain why Solas would go through an effort to survive all this, leave his orb to soak in power for millenia and - within it - create the Anchor specifically so he can tear the Veil down. Honestly... just listen to the guy What is the other thing that he keeps repeating nearly as frequently as 'I saw it in the Fade'? It's 'I don't trust anyone!!!" Over and over again he keeps underlining that he isn't one to easily trust people, not even his friends or allies. From what he says one can easily infer that he was burned so badly in the past that it completely screwed him in trust department. Heck, even his lover, who he almost blabbed everything to, can accuse him in Trespasser for lack of trust and he does nothing to refute that. So yes - he's convinced that he has to do this stuff alone. But the reasons for it are a bit more nuanced than 'it's mostly his ego!'.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 5, 2018 18:02:27 GMT
And who cares if he failed once, twice, three times or hundred times. He should have still kept trying. Just because you failed to help people at first doesn't mean you should just clear the board (read: commit genocide) and start over. Also, connecting elves back to Fade isn't necessary to helping them or enlighten them. I'm sure Solas thinks that way but their are other problems for elves that he could have made better without destroying the Veil. I mean, he complains to Sera about the Red Jennies but he doesn't really put his money where is mouth is and focus on helping elves, slaves, human peasants, mages, stopping the Qun, etc. That's all secondary to his genocidal "world-shaping plan" which is the real tragedy of his character. The difference is that Solas doesn't really see his grand plan for ethnic cleansing as genocide. Not really. Everyone is less-than-people to him. That's why he doesn't try to "help" them: in his eyes, there's no way to help them. What he sees is an abandoned castle, overrun by rats, and what matters to him is only the restoration of the castle. He feel some pangs of guilt about all the killing necessary, because even if he's "only" killing a bunch of insapient, parasitic, lower creatures, for him it's like someone might feel bad for a rat squeaking weakly caught in a trap. Ultimately, though, he can't "help" the rats to build a civilization. So he is simply planning a "humane extermination".
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 5, 2018 18:26:05 GMT
The difference is that Solas doesn't really see his grand plan for ethnic cleansing as genocide. Not really. Everyone is less-than-people to him. That's why he doesn't try to "help" them: in his eyes, there's no way to help them. What he sees is an abandoned castle, overrun by rats, and what matters to him is only the restoration of the castle. He feel some pangs of guilt about all the killing necessary, because even if he's "only" killing a bunch of insapient, parasitic, lower creatures, for him it's like someone might feel bad for a rat squeaking weakly caught in a trap. Ultimately, though, he can't "help" the rats to build a civilization. So he is simply planning a "humane extermination". Something that ain't true even if Inquisitor has mere +1 approval with him and he completely recognizes people's 'peoplesness'. Heck, even in a situation when his relationship with Inky is negative, he has many instances in the story where he recognizes people for what they are - or what they could be. And saying that he views all the modern Thedosians as 'a bunch of insapient, parasitic lower creatures' is a mischaracterization. I mean, it's certainly true that he wants to distance himself from them. That's pretty undeniable. But nowhere he shows attitude on the level of parasitic pests infesting his turf. In fact, from Trespasser we know that he's motivated by guilt and pity, and it's guilt and pity resulting from what he thinks he robbed people from ('You must understand - I awoke in a world where the Veil had blocked most people's conscious connection to the Fade. It was like walking through a world of Tranquil"). Now it seems he feels he needs to return it, even if most people forgot what was it that they lost (or perhaps it's because of it). So it seems to be more like a matter of 'it's going to hurt, but it's for your own good', force-feeding medicine thing, rather than 'pest cleaning'. Plus, if he did indeed think that these rats can't build a civilization, I have doubts he'd say to befriended Inky that he's looking forward to them proving him that he doesn't have to destroy the world.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 5, 2018 18:36:47 GMT
Something that ain't true even if Inquisitor has mere +1 approval with him and he completely recognizes people's 'peoplesness'. Heck, even in a situation when his relationship with Inky is negative, he has many instances in the story where he recognizes people for what they are - or what they could be. And saying that he views all the modern Thedosians as 'a bunch of insapient, parasitic lower creatures' is a mischaracterization. He also, with a Quizzie he approves of, remark that they're not what he expected precisely because their race is [insert negative, simplified mischaracterization here]. To him, the Inquisitor is the exception that proves the rule. He's kind to our character (in the right context). He's racist and hypocritical to basically everyone else. Except he flat out says that he's going to be killing people to do it. He's guilty of what he robbed the ancient elves of. Modern people lost nothing from it, and will only lose because of his plan to undo it. Except he's not really interested in being proven wrong by a friend. If he was, he would have actually given said friend a chance to do so, not abandoned them to go commit genocide after claiming he feels really guilty about it.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 5, 2018 19:45:19 GMT
He also, with a Quizzie he approves of, remark that they're not what he expected precisely because their race is [insert negative, simplified mischaracterization here]. To him, the Inquisitor is the exception that proves the rule. He's kind to our character (in the right context). He's racist and hypocritical to basically everyone else. Cherry-picking much? You seem to think that Solas's evolution somehow stopped on balcony scene. The reality is that the balcony scene wasn't some sort of major arc finisher for Solas - friendship scenes in DA hardly are (at best they're arc finishers specifically for friendship arcs) and that one certainly wasn't. That was merely us seeing how Solas is openly grappling with growing realization that he may be wrong about Thedosian peoplesness. You can't then completely ignore what happened throughout the rest of the game, what he said about other people, or what he said in Trespasser, when it's obvious that ultimately he came to conclusion that hey - people are people. And Inquisitor is only special in a sense that they helped him see that he was in denial about it before. He tells us so pretty explicitly during our last meeting, which happened long after first awkward confessions on the balcony in Skyhold. I mean, never-mind that he's far from only one who has opinions in that matter. Even bleeding-heart Leliana admits that she views most people as small and petty and in need of guidance, and Cassandra agrees with Solas that people can be frustrating. Heck - he doesn't hold even ancient elves in super-high regard. We can hear him tell Dorian that Elvenhan wasn't that great - in fact it was very much like Tevinter Imperium in its time. And should we forget that he is very not fond of 'the first of his people' - the seeming cream of the crop of elvhen race - and criticizes Evanuris as being petty and fickle? In other words, if Inquisitor is an exception for Solas, they're an exception regardless of race... and that includes ancient elves of times past. Cassandra: Solas, I assume you know it's possible to reverse the Rite of Tranquility. Solas: I did hear of what you learned, yes. Cassandra: I know of only one mage thus cured, and... he had no control of his emotions. He was distraught. Cassandra: Do you think that would have passed? If the Tranquil are cured only to end up thus... Solas: They would be a danger to themselves and others, yes. Solas: It is difficult to say. In your Vigil, you were Tranquil for but a moment. They have suffered much longer. Solas: Such control is like a muscle, atrophying without use. Given time it might be restored, but until then... Cassandra: That may be a risk we are obligated to undertake. Solas: They will be grateful... even the ones who do not survive.---- The fact that Solas thinks that there may be casualties doesn't mean that his aim is to actually kill people. He even tells multiple times that death and destruction MAY happen, not that it most definitely will. He's already confirmed with dialogues like one above that he thinks that freeing people from horrible states like Tranquility is worth the possibility of some of them not surviving the reversal. Needless to say... should I remind that he compared the state of modern people to being like Tranquil? And yes, he actually spoke of modern Thedosians overall, not just elves, when he said that most people's conscious connection is blocked by the Veil. It's immediately confirmed when every Inquisitor, regardless of race, reacts to it with 'we aren't even people to you?'. The whole exchange is about Thedosians overall, not just ancient elves. In other words - how do you know modern people lost nothing from it (especially that the distinction seems to exist only because of the Veil)? Should I point out that we don't know the origins of any race and the recorded history of both humans and dwarves (in Descent) was put heavily into question before we even talked with Solas in Trespasser? I have my own (so far) crackpot theory about it, but regardless whether it will be proven true or not, I think we should prepare ourselves for a few surprises in next DA chapters. LOL, but he did! It's not like Inquisitor just happened to bump into Solas and he was there to just say sorry and then they both went their merry way - not only Solas actively prevented Qunari from sneakily exploding everyone, it's only his intervention that's saved Inquisitor from being exploded by the unstable Anchor. And not only that - Solas revealed the outlines of his plan and openly admitted that he knows perfectly well that Inquisitor will try and stop him. So everything that happened during and after Trespasser was because he's allowed it to happen, ergo: he's giving us a chance. It's hard to interpret it as much else.
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Post by Fredward on Feb 5, 2018 20:32:18 GMT
I don't consider the majority of what you just said to be factually at odds with what I said, just a more generous interpretation of the character. A working definition for how I'm thinking about/using the term ego: someone for who the world/anything external primarily exists in how they relate to it. Nothing beyond that, you can be an entirely pleasant person and still have this kind of ego you'd say stuff like "I don't like when people feel bad because it makes me feel bad" ie human suffering isn't bad, it's bad because it bums you out, if you didn't see it it'd be fine. I don't really think that's the kind of permutation with Solas, it's just an example of how you redeemable qualities can cohabit entirely finely with someone primarily driven by ego. For Solas specifically his ego is very cerebral so when he comes to a very clearly, carefully, deliberately laid conclusion he is very, very sure about it. Not implacable, cuz he really is reasonable, so he's the kind of guy that compliments you for not living down to his presuppositions and being cringely sincere about it. He always has rational reasons for his actions and beliefs but for him, and his huge big brain and vast wisdom and insight that dwarfs everyone else, once he settles on something it's not a solution it's the solution. Other arguments and perspectives will generally be discarded as he's given them the warranted amount of thought and settled on this way of doing things anyway, people who disagree just haven't given it enough thought or don't see things as clearly as he does. Only hard, game changing info will make him reassess, which, incidentally, is the form I think convincing him will take and not something like true love's first kiss or whatever. One thing with this is that he's still human (well, not human but) he still has normal human impulses like "REVENGE!" and "PROTECT MY TRIBE!" but what distinguishes him from the plebs is that he doesn't act on these, he only does things when they're the logical thing to do. It's entirely coincidental that he finds very rational reasons for doing what his impulses want him to do. ANYWAY! He might have hoped that it would go better - especially considering that it came with deep personal sacrifices as well. But whatever the Veil was supposed to accomplish, given revelations in Trespasser, there's no reason to assume that it was supposed to be the 'final solution' and that Solas just came to regret it, only to start planning how to fix this mistake. The plan to eventually remove (or do something else to) the Veil might have been there from the start, which would explain why Solas would go through an effort to survive all this, leave his orb to soak in power for millenia and - within it - create the Anchor specifically so he can tear the Veil down. This I do just disagree with. On one hand he just makes no sense, tonally, to be a steepled fingered plotter working towards a millennia long plan, there's too much regret and sadness in his character. On the other hand what he says and does don't not align with someone who isn't reacting/doing damage control: 1) he mentions feeling like he's walking in a world of tranquil, that's weird to complain about if it's a more or less expected consequence 2) according to the data files (which I know we're supposed to be leery about) he's been sleeping for the last 1000 years, the Veil is way, way older than that. What's the benefit from waiting so long? 3) needing Corypheus to open the Orb because he was too weak too doesn't sound like a plan that's gone like it was supposed to 4) the conversations he has with Varric are loaded with "How can you be content with the present when you know the past was so much better?" that just doesn't jive with their intended destruction. There's probably a lot more examples like this but nothing I've seen makes me doubt that he considers raising the Veil a mistake and one he regrets deeply. I don't know how many people do that - what I do know is that this ain't exactly the case of that here. And I have no idea why many people misconstrue his motivations like that, given our conversation in Trespasser, where he explicitly tells us that he created the Veil as the last resort. Given that, portraying his actions as ones he later regrets simply misses the mark. He doesn't paint the Veil as some sort of his grand plan that went wrong, but as last ditch effort he was forced to deploy. Inquisitor has a chance to point out that Solas loves the Fade and even for that reason alone it's confusing as to why Solas would want to push it all away - to which he responds that every other alternative was worse. Ergo: he was never happy to create the Veil in the first place and seems to hate himself for ever doing it. But he thought, for whatever reason (probably having something to do with a bunch of god-kings drunk on power after they just murdered one of them to steal even more power), that he had no choice but to do that. This is where the more generous interpretation comes in for me. What do we know about the state of the elven world at that time? We know the Evanuris had a history of tyrannical behaviors. We know Solas was already invested in his Fen'Harel persona. We know Solas thought Mythal was the only redeemable figure among the Evanuris and that he cared deeply for her. As far as we know a deep, existential threat like Solas seems to hint the Blight is probably didn't exist yet. The major problem here is that we only have Solas' word to go on, what HE deemed to be the least awful choice, and given how that choice was apparently the nearly total genocide of his people and destruction of their way of life that he seems eager to rectify I'm inclined to question that judgement. Total war among the Evanuris, total war against the Evanuris by Solas, tyrannical god kings ruling without Mythal's tempering influence, possibility of digging deeper into whatever freaked out the elves digging into the titan's corpse... all of these seem like they'd have resulted in a less dramatic outcome to the one Solas settled on, except for maybe that last one. So what I think happened is Solas flew into a fit of pique when Mythal was murdered, that he rashly decided to raise the Veil, and that the "every alternate was worse" thing ran parallel and was true enough that he could convince himself of it or he rationalized it later (depending on how rash it was exactly), in neither case was he aware of how heavy the toll for what he was about to do was. So not a grand plan that went wrong, an impulsive plan that went wrong. For me the issue isn't so much that he felt he had to do it (even if that line was drawn in the sand by himself) it's that he did it, regrets it, then goes on to make decisions ostensibly for everyone and on behalf of the greater good but with the unshakable sense of this is also really being for him and how he thinks about himself. I interpret similar dual motives with his current plan, he wants to bring his people back and the very real and gravely misunderstood threat of the Blight pulls double duty: it needs to be done and it means he can tell himself that the genocide he needs to bring his people back is just incidental, the price of what needs to be done rather than him just being homesick and wanting to absolve himself of his guilt. Possibly the Blight could be addressed otherwise but he's not looking for other solutions too hard, this one serves too well. Honestly... just listen to the guy What is the other thing that he keeps repeating nearly as frequently as 'I saw it in the Fade'? It's 'I don't trust anyone!!!" Over and over again he keeps underlining that he isn't one to easily trust people, not even his friends or allies. From what he says one can easily infer that he was burned so badly in the past that it completely screwed him in trust department. Heck, even his lover, who he almost blabbed everything to, can accuse him in Trespasser for lack of trust and he does nothing to refute that. So yes - he's convinced that he has to do this stuff alone. But the reasons for it are a bit more nuanced than 'it's mostly his ego!'. Yeah, so? This humanizes him, adds nuance and makes him relateable, aspects I never denied him, but it says nothing about his ego. Man that got long. This is just intended to be an interpretation of Solas, not the interpretation of Solas. It's entirely possible that I'm misreading the character.
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Post by phoray on Feb 5, 2018 21:48:24 GMT
FredwardI agree with your interpretation of, Solas, for what it's worth.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 5, 2018 23:46:07 GMT
I don't consider the majority of what you just said to be factually at odds with what I said, just a more generous interpretation of the character. A working definition for how I'm thinking about/using the term ego: someone for who the world/anything external primarily exists in how they relate to it. Nothing beyond that, you can be an entirely pleasant person and still have this kind of ego you'd say stuff like "I don't like when people feel bad because it makes me feel bad" ie human suffering isn't bad, it's bad because it bums you out, if you didn't see it it'd be fine. I don't really think that's the kind of permutation with Solas, it's just an example of how you redeemable qualities can cohabit entirely finely with someone primarily driven by ego. For Solas specifically his ego is very cerebral so when he comes to a very clearly, carefully, deliberately laid conclusion he is very, very sure about it. Not implacable, cuz he really is reasonable, so he's the kind of guy that compliments you for not living down to his presuppositions and being cringely sincere about it. He always has rational reasons for his actions and beliefs but for him, and his huge big brain and vast wisdom and insight that dwarfs everyone else, once he settles on something it's not a solution it's the solution. Other arguments and perspectives will generally be discarded as he's given them the warranted amount of thought and settled on this way of doing things anyway, people who disagree just haven't given it enough thought or don't see things as clearly as he does. Only hard, game changing info will make him reassess, which, incidentally, is the form I think convincing him will take and not something like true love's first kiss or whatever. One thing with this is that he's still human (well, not human but) he still has normal human impulses like "REVENGE!" and "PROTECT MY TRIBE!" but what distinguishes him from the plebs is that he doesn't act on these, he only does things when they're the logical thing to do. It's entirely coincidental that he finds very rational reasons for doing what his impulses want him to do. I agree that he won't be just 'talked out of it' or made seen 'the beauty of the world' or whatever romantic notion people think would make him change his mind. He will likely only accept very concrete solutions with a decent chance of succeeding. But that ain't necessarily an ego-driven thing. That's more of a solid scientific reasoning that is actually constructed to keep the ego as far as possible from forming conclusions. In fact, I think the problem with Solas may be that he got a bit too detached from his feelings, not just people from modern Thedas - which makes him think in these super-pragmatic categories that are devoid of empathy or feelings. It's that pragmatism and detachment from his more capable of hoping and believing self that I think is the scary part of Solas - that he himself may fear as well, same as Leliana's fear of becoming Marjolane, but has basically given up to. After all, one of characters that is almost made his mirror is Leliana. There are some pretty stark parallels between the two. And what reasons Solas gives when he tells Inky that he doesn't think Leliana would be as good a leader as Inquisitor? Her faith has been broken and for her it's a matter of tactics now. She's a burned believer (coincidentally, something she also shares with Corypheus). If we harden Leliana, she becomes utterly ruthless. It's likely why spirit!Cole tells us in Trespasser that he will return to the Fade to help (by implication) Solas remember who he is, which also happens to mirror Leliana's conclusion that 'she almost lost herself', if we help her shed the burden of guilt she felt and loss of hope spurred by events in Haven. Rest spoilered for lenght: Well, it only makes no sense if you think that being a steeple fingered plotter is mutually exclusive with someone feeling too much regret or sadness. I don't see reason to think that way. Steeple fingered plotters can too find themselves in a situation that will overwhelm them, or result with something they'd feel deep guilt about. In fact, for me the reason Solas feels so much regret and sadness is because he feels guilty that he couldn't come with a better plan, or feels he could do more to prevent that situation in the first place.
And before you veer into 'ha! Ego!' - Varric feels guilty for the whole red lyrium and Corypheus debacle. Cassandra feels so guilty about not being able to convince Varric to let her reach Hawke that she feels responsible for what happened at the Conclave, and thinks she's unworthy of being in Inquisition because of her failures. Leliana feels profound guilt for not saving Justinia. It's just natural for people to feel guilty, especially if they think that maybe, at some point, they could've done something different to prevent things.
And it's only natural for Solas to feel guilty, considering that his actions resulted in a crippled world and destroyed civilization. Even if he was forced to do that, and even if there was indeed no other way to do that, and even if he knows how to turn things around... if Solas is in any way a decent and empathetic person (and we have enough proof that he is), there's no way for him to not be broken in some ways by what he did.
Survivor's guilt is a condition that exists for real, even in people involved in a situation they had no real control over. Breaking the world is an event so big that it's bound to result in some serious trauma. Solas even tells to Iron Bull, in a moment of deep sympathy, that 'no man can kill so many people without breaking inside'. From the tone it was fairly clear that he wasn't just talking about Iron Bull. Er... the fact that the consequence is expected doesn't mean that people can't have a strong reaction when they actually face that consequence. It's, in fact, fairly common. In DA, if we redeem Blackwall we can even have a whole conversation about how hard it was to confront his past, or his past comrades, even though it was obvious to Rainier way before that it would be hard. There's nothing controversial in this.
It's even a more justified reaction if you look at it through a facet of sacrificing so much and the state of things suggests that you have to still sacrifice more. There's a whole theme/parallel between Solas and Inquisitor about how they just keep giving and the world repays them with more hardship, instead of maybe - just this once - things could be better for a change, after all this insane struggle. If it does, what Solas said in Trespasser overrules that datamine - and he states that he was unconscious for millenia/countless ages.
And he didn't just decide to idly wait. He suggests that the effort required when creating the Veil (well duh, a world-spanning shield that deals with overpowered demigods and holds magic back is kind of a big deal) exhausted him so much that he only managed to wake a year before events in Inquisition, and even then he awoke 'still weak'.
The fact that he's basically seem to have forced himself to wake, despite weakened state, and hand the orb to Coprypheus also suggests that there's either some sort of event he's deemed too crucial to miss... or an expiration date (for the whole world?). Hence 'live well while time remains' said to Inquisitor in Trespasser. Needing Corypheus to open the Orb suggests that there's an underlying plan that Solas wants to realize, so I don't see how him having to work around unexpected snags somehow proves that all of this is just about fixing a mistake he didn't predict and now regrets? He didn't abandon his goal to change the world when explosion at the Conclave has thrown virtually all his plans into chaos - so why would he stop something he's been potentially planning from the start if it turned out that he needs to find a different way to open his orb?
One thing simply doesn't rule out another. It's not like the plan can either totally fail or totally succeed in every minute detail, or that the person can either totally predict everything, or just improvise, with nothing in between. It's not the first nor the last time, be it in fiction or reality, where there's a long-term plan that faces unpredictable obstacles on its path. And it's consistent with Solas' character to plan ahead, even if the odds are overwhelming, or the future is largely unknown (a trait he seems to share with his friend/mentor/whatever, Mythal).
In fact, this seems to be what happened with the Veil. The rune in Deep Roads section in Trespasser reveals that what pushed Solas to openly stand against Evanuris was what he's found there - and his first (?) try wasn't the Veil, but instigating a huge rebellion (while - if we drink from Well Of Sorrows - we find out that he may have also worked in secret with Mythal). Yet, since Evanuris went as far as to killing one of their own, Solas had his last resort ready at hand and things ended up where they ended up.
It's hard to argue that he didn't know what would generally happen when the Veil went up. Seriously, even Blackwall - a completely non-magic person - easily concluded within seconds that if you block the source of magic for the magic-based civilization of magic-based people, the consequences are relatively easy to guess. So Solas being unhappy with it and preparing something past the first Veil deployment that he can work with, regardless how far in the future and regardless of how things went, is not a far fetched assumption at all. That's not how that conversation went. He was talking about not taking action to fight for or find better world, or being curious enough to dig into the past to better their current standing. It has little to do with 'not jiving with their intended destruction'. In fact, Solas even suggests through that conversation that if people were perhaps more curious and open-minded and more willing to fight for better future for themselves they may avert destruction, instead of passively waiting for things to end. The fact that Solas deeply regrets raising the Veil wasn't an issue I was even discussing. The issue I have are some assumptions about how things went that don't glue with what we hear from the character. The Veil doesn't seem to be some sort of idea Solas thought was brilliant at a time and only regrets it after he saw what it does to the world. From the looks of it, it was the last ditch effort that Solas was never happy with. Why would he, when it pushes what he loves away from the world and he feels he deprives people of something important? That only strengthens his willingness to get rid of it and gives him a motivation that goes beyond 'I've made a whoopsie, but I still know what's best for the world'.
On the contrary. Solas hints multiple times that the Blight is the real problem... heck, there's even a dialogue where he says literally that. He is ab-so-lutely terrified of Blight, which is why he's frustrated with Wardens and scared by their plan of killing last remaining Old Gods. Then, in dialogue with Varric, he gives Wardens some credit for 'buying us some time' - 'us', which means he includes himself and everyone else into it.
He also knew long before Bianca that red lyrium is blighted (in dialogue with Cass) and we know from Trespasser that something about that mine, or Titan lying underneath, scared him so much that he left rune with this message: "What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all."
Then there's the Dalish legend that tells of a period in which Andruil seemed to wield something that sounds strangely like the Blight, or something no less sinister. Dalish legends are all suspect of course, like every other tale or record in Thedas, but I find it curious that generally pious Dalish have included a tale of a god becoming corrupted by something bad. In that tale Andruil was cured from darkness by Mythal, who stole her knowledge how to enter the abyss. It can mean nothing or suggest something interesting. Regardless, what we know happened for real was that Mythal was murdered and, according to Solas, it was because the rest was craving more power (Flemythal also tells Inquisitor that she knows the threat they're fighting better than she/he could ever imagine).
There are a few things you forget. Mythal. Felassan. Abelas. Memories and records in Vir Dirthara.
Then there's also that you deem all the things you mentioned as 'possibly resulting in less dramatic outcome', instead of concluding that it's what has directly led to Solas deploying the Veil.
I've already pointed out that Solas has instigated the rebellion because of what scared him in that mine. Yes, it's his rune, put on his mural. We even have datamines to further confirm that. So that war against Evanuris was his first choice. He opted for 'less dramatic' solution first. But after Mythal was murdered, it apparently wasn't enough to stop whatever Evanuris were up to. And Solas, knowing of Evauris more than others (again, the rune, plus his obvious closer relationship with at least one of them), made a decision he did.
How do you know he's not looking for other solutions too hard? He had millennia locked in the Fade to search and ponder and we can't discount the possibility that he was searching all the time, instead of just sitting there and feeling sorry for himself. We know he's been attempting to contact people through different means and offer them knowledge and we know that, despite his ages-long nap, he admits to Inquisitor that he's 'tired of fighting' and not being heeded.
The guy is willing to do even things that he knows risk everything, including potentially changing his mind - like joining Inquisition, or saving it and its leader in Trespasser, even though it probably would be better for him and his plan if he didn't. Not looking for other solutions too hard simply doesn't mesh well with the kind of character he is, or his demonstrably intellectual and proactive nature.
It wasn't supposed to say anything about his ego? What it was supposed to do was point out that there's more to his chosen route than his ego.
He appears to have been really badly burned when he sought help in others, thus strengthening his sense that he has to do everything on his own just from sheer fear of being betrayed, rejected or abandoned again. And since the fate of the world is at stake, that fear seems further exacerbated.
Not to mention few other factors involved: the fact that the Veil is his creation and he knows how it works, that he knows how magic and world works like few others do, or that since he's been 'tainted' with doing something horrendous already he might as well keep doing horrible stuff instead of letting someone else suffer the same fate ("This fate is mine alone. Indeed, I would not wish it on an enemy, much less someone that I once cared for."). Or that he seems profoundly convinced that everybody should fix their own mistakes, not just him - which is why he merely helped Inquisitor deal with Qunari infiltration instead of dealing with them all on his own. A mistake he explicitly says was Inquisitor's to fix.
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Post by cloud9 on Feb 6, 2018 7:59:47 GMT
I think the closest to canon world state is the default world-state in Dragon Age Keep. God I hope not. Bad enough the Briala-Celene reconciliation was even possible in Inquisition, but to actually endorse that parasitic toxicity as canon? Even if players can rewrite in the Keep, would the writers even think about the kind of message that sends?
"See how progressive we are? Who else has an interracial lesbian couple ruling one of the world's most powerful empires? Forget all that power imbalance, manipulative lying, racism, fetishizing, betrayal, stalking, imprisonment, and genocide in The Masked Empire! We're making all the characters forget it ever happened, just like real life abusers to their victims!"
At least the book is telling truths of how elves and "humans" don't go together.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Feb 6, 2018 12:35:42 GMT
phoray thought I should put this here, so I'm quoting myself on something I suggested in the Fenris-thread: Not sure it belongs here, but there you have it.
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Post by phoray on Feb 6, 2018 14:38:29 GMT
phoray thought I should put this here, so I'm quoting myself on something I suggested in the Fenris-thread: Not sure it belongs here, but there you have it. I think it ties in heavily to past elven culture, if true, but also Titans are definitely coming up. So if true, we may see a lot more Fenris markings on either dwarves or some ancient elves. Who's to say the immortal Evanuris didn't have slaves with them when they got locked away in the Fade somewhere? and if their slaves had these markings and still lived or they bred them and these are new slaves or they won't just grab some people when they break out and mark them up.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Feb 6, 2018 14:52:48 GMT
phoray thought I should put this here, so I'm quoting myself on something I suggested in the Fenris-thread: Not sure it belongs here, but there you have it. There are the howling wolf statues with swirly markings associated with ancient elven structures. The markings are not exactly like Fenris' of course, but it's kind of interesting to speculate what they might signify, if anything. (I don't have a screen capture of them so I am linking this one from Harellanart's Tumblr.)
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Post by phoray on Feb 6, 2018 15:00:17 GMT
Thought order I think fellow fans will find amusing: 1. Oh, I'd never noticed those. Quite swirly aren't they. 2. Were Fenris' swirly like that? Never did see him with his shirt off. 3 *thinks about Fenris with his shirt off* yum... 4. Oh wait, speculation about ancient elven magical writing! not shirts off!
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Feb 6, 2018 15:08:23 GMT
2. Were Fenris' swirly like that? Never did see him with his shirt off. This is concept art of Fenris that shows more of his chest: Edit* Oh, and there's this too:
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Post by phoray on Feb 6, 2018 15:18:51 GMT
This is concept art of Fenris that shows more of his chest: The second one looks like it came from a 3D modeling program so I think the first picture is likely more accurately original concept art. Have I see it in WOT even maybe? So they didn't go full blown circle swirls on him.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 6, 2018 15:28:01 GMT
This is concept art of Fenris that shows more of his chest: The second one looks like it came from a 3D modeling program so I think the first picture is likely more accurately original concept art. Have I see it in WOT even maybe? So they didn't go full blown circle swirls on him.At least from the waist up. :sure: And yeah, that first pic is from WoT2.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Feb 6, 2018 15:29:34 GMT
This is concept art of Fenris that shows more of his chest: The second one looks like it came from a 3D modeling program so I think the first picture is likely more accurately original concept art. Have I see it in WOT even maybe? So they didn't go full blown circle swirls on him. I'm pretty sure the second pic is from the character model somehow, you can see that most of the patterns match the ones in the concept art. His markings kinda remind me of June's vallaslin. Spoilered for size.
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 6, 2018 15:37:13 GMT
phoray thought I should put this here, so I'm quoting myself on something I suggested in the Fenris-thread: Not sure it belongs here, but there you have it. I would argue that Fenris' markings are ironically closer to the real Vallaslin of ancient Arlathan, binding an Evanuris' followers to them spiritually as well as physically. Much how Abelas and the Sentinels were under a geas and couldn't abandon their duties even if they wanted to, until/unless the Well of Sorrows was used.
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Post by rras1994 on Feb 6, 2018 15:37:54 GMT
The second one looks like it came from a 3D modeling program so I think the first picture is likely more accurately original concept art. Have I see it in WOT even maybe? So they didn't go full blown circle swirls on him. I'm pretty sure the second pic is from the character model somehow, you can see that most of the patterns match the ones in the concept art. His markings kinda remind me of June's vallaslin. Spoilered for size. June was the god of craft and the wiki suggests that older depications of June do not depict the god with the tools the Dalish associate him with. Maybe his craft was with lyrium or using elves and other time it changed to a depication of making tools?
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 6, 2018 15:41:26 GMT
It wouldn't surprise me if these were connected at all. Especially since Danarius chose the name "Fenris"... we know that it means little wolf in Tevene, we know that Fen = wolf in Elvhen, they also seem to have borrowed the fenhedis/venhedis swear word. I'm sure giving his vallaslin-covered warrior elf an ancient elven name was deliberate on Danarius's part.
It'd be interesting to stumble on some of his research, see where exactly he got the idea. He either learned of the concept and tried to work backwards, filling in with his own knowledge, or perhaps there are explicit instructions about the process that survived over the years.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 6, 2018 15:47:11 GMT
2. Were Fenris' swirly like that? Never did see him with his shirt off. This is concept art of Fenris that shows more of his chest: Edit* Oh, and there's this too: Well, the one thing that immediately comes to mind is vallaslin. Lyrium is technically blood, so both of them would be blood writing
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Feb 6, 2018 15:50:50 GMT
I'm pretty sure the second pic is from the character model somehow, you can see that most of the patterns match the ones in the concept art. His markings kinda remind me of June's vallaslin. Spoilered for size. June was the god of craft and the wiki suggests that older depications of June do not depict the god with the tools the Dalish associate him with. Maybe his craft was with lyrium or using elves and other time it changed to a depication of making tools? Maybe he was the one to create the technique... and to make sure it was never used against them they made him a part of their little group to ensure his loyalty. Maybe that's why he was married to Sylaise, just like how they cemented alliances in medieval Europe.
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