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Post by rras1994 on Feb 6, 2018 18:29:42 GMT
We know what Solas seems to think of Mythal, I wouldn't say we truly know what Mythal thinks of Solas. True. But their short meeting in post-credit scene seemed genuine and heartfelt, regardless of how it ended. It's one of few moments when both characters seem truly vulnerable. I think it's complicated, mainly cus of what type of person Flemeth/Mythal is - I would say there are moments were she genuinely seems to care for Morrigan too, but I think she wouldn't have any hesitation of using/destroying Morrigan if it fits with her plan. I supect her relationship with Solas is like that, that she's fond of him but not above using him in furtherance of her goals. Which actually might make it mirror Celene and Briala relationship even more.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 6, 2018 18:36:03 GMT
True. But their short meeting in post-credit scene seemed genuine and heartfelt, regardless of how it ended. It's one of few moments when both characters seem truly vulnerable. I think it's complicated, mainly cus of what type of person Flemeth/Mythal is - I would say there are moments were she genuinely seems to care for Morrigan too, but I think she wouldn't have any hesitation of using/destroying Morrigan if it fits with her plan. I supect her relationship with Solas is like that, that she's fond of him but not above using him in furtherance of her goals. Which actually might make it mirror Celene and Briala relationship even more. True - though I think Solas, like Leliana, is aware (at least now) that he's being used. Thing is, due to various reasons, he sees no other way. Plus - as much as Mythal ain't goody two-shoes, I don't think her plans are actually sinister. So the end of that relationship may be, again, like that of Justinia and Leli: Inquisitor: "Do you resent Justinia for what she did?" Leliana: "How can I, when there is so much between us, when she gave her life for peace?"
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Post by rras1994 on Feb 6, 2018 18:38:45 GMT
I think it's complicated, mainly cus of what type of person Flemeth/Mythal is - I would say there are moments were she genuinely seems to care for Morrigan too, but I think she wouldn't have any hesitation of using/destroying Morrigan if it fits with her plan. I supect her relationship with Solas is like that, that she's fond of him but not above using him in furtherance of her goals. Which actually might make it mirror Celene and Briala relationship even more. True - though I think Solas, like Leliana, is aware (at least now) that he's being used. Thing is, due to various reasons, he sees no other way. Plus - as much as Mythal ain't goody two-shoes, I don't think her plans are actually sinister. So the end of that relationship may be, again, like that of Justinia and Leli: Inquisitor: "Do you resent Justinia for what she did?" Leliana: "How can I, when there is so much between us, when she gave her life for peace?" I would argue that Solas and Mythal are much darker versions of Leliannas and Justinia. But that's my interpretation of them, I could be wrong.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 6, 2018 18:39:52 GMT
It's one of few moments when both characters seem truly vulnerable. Well, one of them was vulnerable. Vulnerable to MURDER. Granted, it looks like she might have planned for that anyway. But killing someone during a comfort hug does imply some level of expression is less than sincere.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 6, 2018 18:43:24 GMT
True - though I think Solas, like Leliana, is aware (at least now) that he's being used. Thing is, due to various reasons, he sees no other way. Plus - as much as Mythal ain't goody two-shoes, I don't think her plans are actually sinister. So the end of that relationship may be, again, like that of Justinia and Leli: Inquisitor: "Do you resent Justinia for what she did?" Leliana: "How can I, when there is so much between us, when she gave her life for peace?" I would argue that Solas and Mythal are much darker versions of Leliannas and Justinia. But that's my interpretation of them, I could be wrong. Well, they are way older, they seem to know the world's darkest secrets (that so far they seem to want to take to their graves) and both are scarred and damaged by all the things they went through and a seemingly hopeless uphill struggle that lasted for ages. Of course they are much darker. But I don't think that necessarily pushes them into a dark area in case of potential motivations. Both of them are very grey individuals who have long lost notion of any distinction between villains and heroes.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 6, 2018 18:47:14 GMT
It's one of few moments when both characters seem truly vulnerable. Well, one of them was vulnerable. Vulnerable to MURDER. Granted, it looks like she might have planned for that anyway. But killing someone during a comfort hug does imply some level of expression is less than sincere. Well, we are talking about a guy who said 'if they are to die, I'd rather they die in comfort'. For him, such soft, unexpected blow seems to be a mercy and Mythal's death didn't seem painful. In fact, we can't be sure she's even that dead...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 19:05:48 GMT
I think the reason Mythal got shanked is pretty simple, and also explained in Trespasser. They discovered red lyrium and the taint in one of the lyrium mines, many years after a Titan was murdered: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Veilfire_Runes_in_the_Deep_RoadsIn the light of the veilfire, the runes seem to shift, coiling and uncoiling like snakes. A thunderous voice shatters the stillness, shouting: "Hail Mythal, adjudicator and savior! She has struck down the pillars of the earth and rendered their demesne unto the People! Praise her name forever!" For a moment, the scent of blood fills the air, and there is a vivid image of green vines growing and enveloping a sphere of fire. The vision grows dark. An aeon seems to pass. Then the runes crackle, as if filled with an angry energy. A new vision appears: elves collapsing caverns, sealing the Deep Roads with stone and magic. Terror, heart-pounding, ice-cold, as the last of the spells is cast. A voice whispers: "What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all." Mythal realized it was spreading rapidly and they had to stop using lyruim the way they were, or the taint was going to swallow the world. Anyway, that would be like telling people in our world that they immediately have to stop using oil - definite political suicide. She was a god-queen who had to maintain order, so it seems that her good friend Solas volunteered to fall on the grenade of inciting rebellion against the other Evanuris. He started a propaganda campaign to by get their followers to reject them (with Mythal's quiet support, and possibly Dirthamen and Falon'Din since their portraits are also in Solas' temple), earning him the name Fen'Harel. So all that happened, and if the legend holds true Mythal was eventually betrayed by one of her allies (which has been theorized to be Dirthamen since his statue shows up in her scene with Keiran with a giant sword in it's back) and the Evanuris killed her. Since the whole taint thing was still going strong, and apparently at least one of the Evanuris (Andruil) attempted to weaponize red lyrium until Mythal stopped them, the writing was kind of on the wall for Elvhenan. The main thing Solas did was to keep the Evanuris from taking the rest of the world down with them, and possibly sealing a whole lot of tainted material inside the Fade, which Cole says was the right thing to do at the time. See I don't think Solas volunteered, so much as was likely used by Mythal. From how she treats her daughters, I don't think Mythal/Flemeth would be above tricking people to get what she wanted and I do think it would fit into the dynamic of Solas thinking he knows so much more than everyone else and tricking people, that it would be ironic that he's been used himself and likely kept in the dark. And her encouraging the rebellion could be the reason Solas thinks so well of her, but would also explain why her herself has slaves using vallaslin and the Well of Sorrows, as she didn't really care about the politics behind it but was using it as a political move. I've always found it a bit paradoxical that Mythal apparently cares so much about her people but is fine with using those horrid tools. While I do think the blight has something to do with it, I still don't think it was a purely selfless pursuit. She seems to have positioned herself as the true power. And given the way she manipulates from the shadows as Flemeth and seems to have so much patience, I just can't see her as the benevolent god queen. Those seem like skills she had before she got murdered. Well, I'm sure we will see anyway. I have no doubt that Solas was used by Mythal, and I think he's savvy enough to know that he was her pawn. He had to learn it from somewhere after all, the court in Elvhenan was just as bloodthirsty and terrifying as that of Orlais. The comparisons of his relationship with Mythal, to both Justinia and Leliana's and Celene and Briala's dynamics, are both very apt. For example - I think what ultimately cost Mythal her life, was something very similar to Celene's political burning of the alienage in The Masked Empire. If you'll recall the sinner codex: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Ancient_Elven_Writing"His crime is high treason. He took on a form reserved for the gods and their chosen, and dared to fly in the shape of the divine. The sinner belongs to Dirthamen; he claims he took wings at the urging of Ghilan'nain, and begs protection from Mythal. She does not show him favor, and will let Elgar'nan judge him." For one moment there is an image of a shifting, shadowy mass with blazing eyes, whose form may be one or many. Then it fades. At one point before she died, Mythal was forced to transfer the judgment of one of Dirthamen's people over to Elgar'nan (who was known to kill anyone who came before him for judgement), because the slave had committed an act that was directly insulting to her. The form reserved to her was that of a dragon, so we can infer that the slave learned to take that form and shoved it in the Evanuris' face, Mythal in particular. If there was a slave rebellion going on that she was pretending not to support publicly, she couldn't afford to look soft on the treatment of slaves. What looks like a bit of mischief instigated by Ghilan'nain, was a very deadly political move if the slave was highly valued or a close friend or lover of Dirthamen's. He may have been furious that Mythal didn't let his subject/slave/servant off easily. Thus, very possibly setting the stage for Dirthamen's betrayal if he had formerly been a solid ally in the rebellion. If Solas had been solidly anti-slavery at that point, he would have likely been furious with her, too, much like Briala with Celene, but he would have understood her reasoning. Ultimately, Mythal's refusal to commit completely to the anti-slavery movement, and instead relying upon subterfuge may have been what destroyed her.
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Post by Fredward on Feb 6, 2018 19:08:15 GMT
I'm gonna break this off into three general pieces, mostly for my own sake as I'm not sure why we seem to be debating some of the things we're debating (this is @midnight tea in case quote tags don't work in spoilers though they probably do right?). Solas and ego:As I have established I don't think immense ego is mutually exclusive with 1) being a good person in other ways 2) being correct. For the sake of this I'm going to assume Solas is entirely correct this whole time and everything has been unfolding more or less as he's intended (which is not something I agree with but we'll get to that later), why is perceived necessity not enough to occlude ego from the equation? 1. You mentioned that Solas is scientific in his approach and that this helps him leave his ego out of stuff. One of the core tenets of a scientific approach to things is peer review, realizing that you alone are not enough, that additional perspectives and frames are going to offer insight you didn't think of because you're not all knowing. Solas discarding this for whatever ameliorating reasons there may being all like I AM THE SENATE I AM THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY is exactly the manifestation of ego I'm talking about. It's rationality but predicated on the idea that Solas is solely qualified to make decisions affecting billions, which is very much not rational, it's ego. 2. Necessity doesn't mean much when you're the person defining necessary. If I said that me having milk is absolutely necessary and that someone was blocking me from getting my milk and thus I had to kill them then it was necessary but only within the framework I'd established. AFAIK not Mythal, Felassan, Abelas or the records stated or implied But since we're assuming Solas was right about everything and it genuinely was necessary... 3. Making a decision on behalf of an entire people is inherently egotistical and this scales up with the amount of lives you're throwing in the furnace for the sake of necessity. You're fundamentally placing yourself on a different tier than the people you're making a decision about/for. Now this would make him a kind of exasperating person but it'd be forgivable if he was consistently correct but I don't think he is, which makes the ego a tragic flaw instead of just a regular old character flaw. Solas and the Veil:
Him intending things to happen like they have make no sense. Lets say whatever they found digging in the titan, combined with killing Mythal, precipitated Solas' decision to create the Veil. What was the point? Assuming that was the Blight or something like it it failed to keep it splitting the Fade from concrete reality failed to contain it, his plan failed at the cost of his people. If the plan was to seal the Evanuris he is now going to release them again by bringing the Veil down, he says he has a plan for dealing with them but why use the Veil as a way to deal with them in the first place if you're gonna remove it later, especially at the cost? Sealing tyrannical god kings only to later release the god kings but without the people to be tyrannical over because you killed all of them is not a success story. If it was to buy time then buy time for who? All his people died and he didn't even initially consider the new inhabitants people at first so it definitely wasn't for their benefit. What plan requires the destruction of his people, the destruction of an entirely different people and then the resurrection of his people and a return to the status quo that presumably had a hand in creating the crisis in the first place? And if you were writing this why would write that instead of a more recognizable/less convoluted plot like "Man makes huge mistake wants to undo it"? We know Bioware likes their archetypes. He might have a general, overarching goal of "Stop Blight" but that doesn't mean it's been one cohesive plan. I would consider "Unnecessary annihilation of my people" a pretty definitive fail state to Plan A. ie he's not infallible but still acts like he is (ego bingo), that this time he's cleary eyed and this billion something sacrifice will actually mean something. As for how he would have missed the importance of magic to a magical people I dunno really, but going by Abelas and his elves we have to assume that it didn't HAVE to mean death. Maybe he overestimated his people, maybe he didn't think anything could be a meaningful threat to his people and they'd be free of the yoke of their god-kings but then Tevinter showed up, maybe it was one of those cases where you don't really realize what you have till it's gone. Other stuff:
That's not how that conversation went. He was talking about not taking action to fight for or find better world, or being curious enough to dig into the past to better their current standing. It has little to do with 'not jiving with their intended destruction'. In fact, Solas even suggests through that conversation that if people were perhaps more curious and open-minded and more willing to fight for better future for themselves they may avert destruction, instead of passively waiting for things to end. I mean sure that too but: Solas: Do you ever miss life beneath the earth? The call of the Stone? Varric: Nah. Whatever the Stone - capital S - is, it was gone by the time my parents had me. Solas: But... do you miss it? Varric: How could I miss what I never had? Varric: But say I did have that sense, that connection to the Stone. What would it cost me? Varric: Would I lose my friends up here? Would I stop telling stories? Varric: I like who I am. If I want to hear songs, I'll go to a tavern. Solas: You are wiser than most. Solas: Is there at least a movement to reunite Orzammar and Kal-Sharok? Varric: What is it with you, Chuckles? Why do you care so much about the dwarves? Solas: Once, in the Fade, I saw the memory of a man who lived alone on an island. Most of his tribe had fallen to beasts or disease. His wife had died in childbirth. He was the only one left. He could have struck out on his own to find a new land, new people. But he stayed. He spent every day catching fish in a little boat, every night drinking fermented fruit juice and watching the stars. Varric: I can think of worse lives. Solas: How can you be happy surrendering, knowing it will all end with you? How can you not fight?
Varric: I suppose it depends on the quality of the fermented fruit juice. Solas: So it seems. Varric: What's with you and the doom stuff? Are you always this cheery or is the hole in the sky getting to you? Solas: I've no idea what you mean. Varric: All the "fallen empire" crap you go on about. What's so great about empires anyway? Varric: So we lost the Deep Roads, and Orzammar's too proud to ask for help. So what? We're not Orzammar and we're not our empire. Varric: There are tens of thousands of us living up here in the sunlight now, and it's not that bad. Varric: Life goes on. It's just different than it used to be. Solas: And you have no concept of what that difference cost you.
Varric: I know what it didn't cost me. I'm still here, even after all those thaigs fell. Solas: You truly are content to sit in the sun, never wondering what you could've been, never fighting back.
Varric: Ha, you've got it all wrong, Chuckles. This is fighting back. Solas: How does passively accepting your fate constitute a fight? Varric: In that story of yours—-the fisherman watching the stars, dying alone. You thought he gave up, right? Solas: Yes. Varric: But he went on living. He lost everyone, but he still got up every morning. He made a life, even if it was alone. Varric: That's the world. Everything you build, it tears down. Everything you've got, it takes. And it's gone forever. Varric: The only choices you get are to lie down and die or keep going. He kept going. That's as close to beating the world as anyone gets. Solas: Well said. Perhaps I was mistaken. So a discussion about finding contentment with what you got vs striving for more, but Solas doesn't really belief for striving for more for these people and this iteration of the world, how can he if he's planning to burn it all in the raw chaos of the Fade? Instead he's talking about the way things used to be, combined with his stated goal of saving his people/bringing them back I can't read this and think the destruction of his people was intended. He appears to have been really badly burned when he sought help in others, thus strengthening his sense that he has to do everything on his own just from sheer fear of being betrayed, rejected or abandoned again. And since the fate of the world is at stake, that fear seems further exacerbated. Which is fine for understanding why he's so self-involved but doesn't mean he isn't. or that since he's been 'tainted' with doing something horrendous already he might as well keep doing horrible stuff instead of letting someone else suffer the same fate This just seems like an adjacent mindset to the people who say they would never kill one baby to save a million other people because it's wrong and they wouldn't be able to live with themselves and their souls would be damned etc and I'm just back here thinking who the fuck cares about the state of your one individual soul when a billion lives are at stake by all means embrace damnation. Inversed a bit obviously (I'M ALREADY DAMNED DON'T YOU SEE but not you my innocent lily I will not allow you to blemish yourself with this DARK PATH I have chosen to wander TORTURED and ALONE flee my petal dove), by all means Solas please let me damn my own soul if it means being part of the decision making process of what happens to billions of people. I'll get over it somehow. It's infatilizing at best and self-involved to the point of solipsism at its worst. The guy is willing to do even things that he knows risk everything, including potentially changing his mind - like joining Inquisition, or saving it and its leader in Trespasser, even though it probably would be better for him and his plan if he didn't. Pffft, no it wouldn't? Yes he helped the Inquisitor solve a genuine dilemma, what he also got out of that help is: 1. Entrenched the Exalted Council's positions that something needed to be done about the Inquisition. I doubt the plot was revealed at that very specific time by accident and the result is a hobbled Inquisition, the organization that knows the most about Solas. 2. Cleaned out the Qunari from his eluvian network and got them to stop breaking mirrors without further resource investment on his part. 3. Ensured that the south wouldn't fall easily to the Qunari thus he won't have to face a unified response to his shenanigans. 4. The failure of the Dragon's Breath plot leads directly to an attack by the Qunari guaranteeing a distraction for Solas and his helper elves, no one's going to be paying attention to the knife ears when the great horned giants are invading. He did the same thing with the Inquisition, helped them solve a genuine problem while a) fixing his mistake b] giving him the greatest opportunity to retrieve the orb c) embedding himself in a powerful, far reaching organization where he can both recover his strength and feel out how the world works. Overtly address a serious, objective issue (especially when addressing that issue will also help you/your plans would run smoother with the obstacle removed) while seamlessly advancing your own interests is his MO. That only strengthens his willingness to get rid of it and gives him a motivation that goes beyond 'I've made a whoopsie, but I still know what's best for the world'. That isn't his only motivation and he wouldn't be nearly as interesting a character if it was. What makes him interesting is the way he syncretes his desires with compelling rationality, and the knife twisty part comes in when his tragic flaw doesn't allow him to view his blindspot, namely where syncretization blurs into conflation and rationality rides side-saddle for desire and there's tragedy for everyone.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 7, 2018 5:23:48 GMT
I'm gonna break this off into three general pieces, mostly for my own sake as I'm not sure why we seem to be debating some of the things we're debating (this is @midnight tea in case quote tags don't work in spoilers though they probably do right?) Phew, that was long... You say that it's rationality that's predicated on the idea that Solas is solely qualified to make decisions affecting billions... but aside from specifying what kind of ego you mean and being fairly adamant about it, you present little evidence for it it. But there are basic problems with the idea here, including that this sort of ego doesn't mesh with Solas's story arc, which is about him being deeply conflicted. Kinda hard to have that deep conflict gnawing at his soul, if at the same time the ego you suggest gives him near-total certainty, or helps him discard other viewpoints. Even harder to justify it when one of the goals of Inquisition is to show him as introspective kind of dude that has strong opinions, but accepts others viewpoints and shifts his accordingly when interacting with others - especially one pertaining viewing modern Thedosians as people. Nevermind that in Trespasser he can't shut up about being wrong before and lays groundwork under being proven wrong again. Then there's this:
Cole: You don't need to envy me, Solas. You can find happiness in your own way. Solas: I apologize for disturbing you, Cole. I am not a spirit, and sometimes it is hard to remember such simple truths. Cole: They are not gone so long as you remember them. Solas: I know. Cole: But you could let them go. Solas: I know that as well. Cole: You didn't do it to be right. You did it to save them. Inquisitor: Solas, what is Cole talking about? Solas: A mistake. One of many made by a much younger elf who was certain he knew everything. Cole: You weren't wrong, though. Solas: Thank you, Cole. (Or) Inquisitor: Cole, I think Solas would like you to stop. Solas: It is no bother, Inquisitor. Cole is a spirit of compassion and this world is too bleak to spurn compassion offered freely. I will never know that for certain, Cole, but thank you for saying it. Careful with the hyperbole. Comparing destruction of the world to killing someone to get milk? It makes it seem like you think Solas's decision was frivolous, if not psychotic. And I don't think you can really make a case that Solas was just making arbitrary decision on what's necessary, based on flimsy premises. We don't know exactly what happened at time Mythal died yet, but we do have enough information to infer that what was happening wasn't at all pretty. Mythal was betrayed and murdered, and that act has somehow also 'betrayed' the world - by her own words. Felassan doesn't ever strikes me as the guy who thinks that what happened in the past was an overkill. Abelas seems fairly certain that elves were architects of their own demise. We know from Vir Dirthara that Evanuris were absurdly powerful, but at the same time tyrannical. We know that rebellion has happened and that elves were enslaved and fighting Evanuris under Dread Wolf's leadership. We know that Solas has discovered something that terrified him and spurred him first to openly oppose Evanuris by instigating that massive rebellion. You say that you're assuming a theoretical scenario in which Solas was correct and all, yet even in that scenario somehow you make it sound as if what he did was about egotism...? I find it hard to believe that you believe that basically every situation in which a person has to make decisions that can affect masses somehow are mostly about their inherent egotism instead of being... oh I don't know... desperate, pushed to make decisions, have limited time or options, found themselves in crappy circumstances, or - who knows - perhaps even had approval of others? We don't know how exactly the whole process went, but Solas was the leader of massive uprising, wasn't he? Honestly, this feels more like splitting hair for the sake of trying to prove the ego theory than honest assessment of the character, as we can apply this inherent egotism label to a lot of protagonists (including ones we play in games, DA too), as they oftentimes make decisions that too are basically on behalf of entire people, including decisions that throw lives in the furnace for the sake of necessity. In other words, I find the point mostly moot. Mostly, because I think the biggest irony here is that regardless of how many factors existed that may have made Solas take action, the fact that he feels his actions resulted in imposing his will on on others is probably one of the biggest sources of his crippling guilt and biggest conflict. After all, the guy is established to be one of the staunchest proponents of free will (if you don't believe the narrative in the game - it's what his own writer has said about him) and openly dislikes anyone imposing will on others. Well it surely makes no sense - because it wasn't something I was ever talking about. I think you may be confusing a couple things. Not sure if it's my English, but let's try to straighten things up... Given that we don't know everything, we can't assume that it was supposed to accomplish only that, but the lack of Evanuris terrorizing the neighborhood for millenia is kind of a big deal on its own. This supports the theory that the Veil might only be a temporary solution, deployed to buy some time or give some breathing room. After all, how many stories do we have where the threat has been sealed for some time in last, desperate attempt, or until more favorable conditions for its defeat occur in the future? I don't know if the Veil was supposed to be anything close to that. But such possibility cannot be discounted at this point in time. And even if the Veil was supposed to, say, hold the Blight and that didn't really work out in the long run, it doesn't change the fact that the world still exists, as people who might have done a whole lot more damage with the Blight didn't get to it when they could. That's what matters, at least for now. A crippled world is still better than one that's utterly destroyed, because it gives some foothold to start rebuilding things, no? Okay... I'm not sure how did you come to a conclusion that 'destruction of his people, the destruction of an entirely different people and then the resurrection of his people and a return to the status quo' was suggested by me to be parts of a singular plan? Where did that come from? I certainly didn't argue it. What gave you the idea that I did? Which part of 'the Veil was the last resort' screams 'fully intentional'? The last resort means the last resort - something you do when all other things have failed. In this scenario the destruction of Elvenhan is a tragic, but inevitable side effect of trying to prevent even worse destruction. The fact that I argue that Solas was likely aware of at least some major side effects of the Veil and has made some plans and contingencies beyond its creation also doesn't suggest that all that destruction was planned from the start - merely that Solas prepared himself to either continue fighting or try and mitigate the destructive effects of his own invention. I don't see how that would ever suggest that this is all some sort of strange plan where supposedly everything is interconnected with the goal to destroy the world, only to return it back to how it was? That would be convoluted. But it's not my position here. I mean, Solas's motivation ain't really that complicated. He wanted (wants?) to save the world from ultimate annihilation. He even tells that straight at some point.
Blackwall: What happened at Redcliffe, have you ever seen its like, Solas? Solas: The distortion of time? I have seen magic accomplish many things, but ... no, that is new. Blackwall: Magic has little place in a war between men. Solas: Many mages are brutes, seeing nothing more than a larger ball of fire. Solas: But those with imagination, those who use war to push the limits of the possible ... Blackwall: I wish the Chantry could better enforce restrictions against its use. Solas: Such rules never hold. Any who want victory will find some reason their cause merits exception. Solas: The best we can do is ensure the world still stands when this fight ends.
You can legitimately ask why he thinks the world that still stands is not enough for him, but I don't think we have enough information now to give a proper answer. The return of Elvenhan and status quo? He was the one who fought to change it long before he destroyed it, and remains critical of Elvenhan, including actively comparing it to Tevinter Imperium. He explicitly told Dorian to not romanticize ancient elves. So no, that's not it. The return of Evanuris? Obviously not. The return of spirits and magic? Sure, but if it's a goal, it's one that is shared between Solas ad Flemythal, who seems to care about current world and its fate in her own peculiar way. So why do both want magic to return? Is it necessary to accomplish something else? For the world to survive some threat that requires magic to come flooding back? For some sort of more or less esoteric balance to be restored? We don't know that now. Clearly there's more to the story here than "man makes huge mistake wants to undo it", though not necessarily as convoluted as you think it may be. He's not talking in context of how things used to be in this exchange - he's predominantly expressing his frustration with what he thinks is people seeming either too complacent, or incurious, or content with how things are instead of fighting for something better or rising to their potential (he has similar discussion with Sera. No mention of the past there at all - merely Solas expressing frustration that Sera doesn't want to accomplish more to right the injustices she sees). I mean... have you thought that may it be, potentially, that this is one of the reasons he may be convinced things have to change from how they're now? That perhaps he thought that he'd be able to work with these new people and teach them and make things better through less invasive means, but folks have proven obstinate, fearful, passive, complacent or just forgetful? That he's still holding to some faint hope after all those years, which is why he keeps asking all these questions and trying to get to know viewpoints of his companions? Again - conflicted. A major theme for this character. Also, please: the 'destruction of his people was intended' may be unintentional, but it is still a strawman. Solas being aware that there would be heavy cost to rising the Veil to save the world from some kind of worse alternative doesn't equal intention to destroy. It also doesn't make his motivation to try and fix or restore any less weird or confusing, especially in a scenario in which he resented to lift the Veil in the first place. It also doesn't make his character any less tragic or ironic - a hero broken by the fact that in order to save the world/set it free he had to destroy it by imposing his will on it. A scenario he tried to avoid, given that we know he was willing to stand against powerful Evanuris first by leading a rebellion of the downtrodden. And if he felt that perhaps he could've done more before he got pushed into a corner, he'd view the Veil as no less of a mistake or failure on his part. A moot point, given that this is basically what seems to have happened... only less over the top. We won't be getting far if you keep reducing things to cartoonish hyperboles. Nevermind that you make it sound more like it's about decision making about fate of billions of people than anything else. Didn't you call it inherently egotistical before? As much as this may be flawed thinking, people have good reasons to try and shield people from consequences they draw on themselves that go beyond infantalizing or self-involvement. Especially in a situation when it's quite obvious we have no clue what we'd potentially be getting into - in a world of magic, where abstract concept can have physical manifestation and who knows what damning the soul means in that universe. It's kind of like with Well Of Sorrows. Yea, you can drink the damn thing and get information you want to defeat that baddie, but don't be surprised if a mysterious elven deity later uses your power to unknown ends, because you know what? She happens to exist and will even drop by to say hi! And Solas did warn us not to drink it. Pffft, yes it would? The Exalted Council wasn't called so everybody could meet for tea and crumpets. The reason it happened in the first place was precisely because of an effort to have Inquisition hobbled either way. Ironically, what happened in Trespasser helped us to un-hobble the Inquisition. First - there'd be no Inquisition without Solas' help at this point in time. Duh. Second - Inquisitor clears the organization from spies (kinda a big deal, that) and trims its size to something more manageable and stops being hopelessly bogged down by constant dealing with nobles and neighbors (it's established that in last two years Inquisitor are insanely busy, but most of the time is wasted on endless meetings and negotiations, which is probably why Inquisitor didn't even have time to notice it being badly infiltrated). Three - the organization that knows most about Solas is now free to laser-focus on stopping him instead of the above. And with nobody really watching their every move... because everyone thinks it's hobbled. We've already seen that he was perfectly capable of doing it on his own. And seriously - resource investment? The Qunari might have been cleaned from eluvian network, but guess who got hands on all that valuable research and knowledge? Oh, right - the organization that knows most about Solas. Um... okay, so you've just refuted your one point with the next one. I'm fairly sure that Qunari invasion on South would be the very same, if not better, distraction for Solas. The difference between both scenarios is that in 4. there will obviously be something who'd be paying attention. You know... that little organization that knows most about Solas that he's just helped to save and kindly informed of what he's planning to do? The fact that he's either benefited or achieved his goal through Inquisition in the main game doesn't change the fact that he's also put his hand in allowing it to grow and thrive (by handing it Skyhold, for example). Almost like he's grooming it and its leader for something. And then he's saved them and let them pursue him. I don't disagree with him having a blindspot(s) - what I disagree with is what exactly his 'tragic flaw' is, or what exactly motivates him to pursue his goal that ultimately results in something of a different character.
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Post by Fredward on Feb 7, 2018 13:30:52 GMT
Tome: You say that you're assuming a theoretical scenario in which Solas was correct and all, yet even in that scenario somehow you make it sound as if what he did was about egotism...? I find it hard to believe that you believe that basically every situation in which a person has to make decisions that can affect masses somehow are mostly about their inherent egotism instead of being... oh I don't know... desperate, pushed to make decisions, have limited time or options, found themselves in crappy circumstances, or - who knows - perhaps even had approval of others? We don't know how exactly the whole process went, but Solas was the leader of massive uprising, wasn't he? Honestly, this feels more like splitting hair for the sake of trying to prove the ego theory than honest assessment of the character, as we can apply this inherent egotism label to a lot of protagonists (including ones we play in games, DA too), as they oftentimes make decisions that too are basically on behalf of entire people, including decisions that throw lives in the furnace for the sake of necessity. In other words, I find the point mostly moot. Yeah that's pretty fair tbh. Ego!Solas doesn't really work well if the necessity was genuine. But there are basic problems with the idea here, including that this sort of ego doesn't mesh with Solas's story arc, which is about him being deeply conflicted. Kinda hard to have that deep conflict gnawing at his soul, if at the same time the ego you suggest gives him near-total certainty, or helps him discard other viewpoints. Even harder to justify it when one of the goals of Inquisition is to show him as introspective kind of dude that has strong opinions, but accepts others viewpoints and shifts his accordingly when interacting with others - especially one pertaining viewing modern Thedosians as people. Nevermind that in Trespasser he can't shut up about being wrong before and lays groundwork under being proven wrong again. I don't know how well I've been communicating this (and I might not have been communicating this) but a big part of ego!Solas is that he drinks his own KoolAid. He doesn't approach things or problems from a point of explicit superiority, he approaches them as a reasonable, insightful, curious person who wants to legitimately engage with an issue. Once he's gathered enough info he forms an opinion. It's somewhere around this part where the ego steps in because one he's reached a conclusion he's relatively set on it (which is not the same thing as being entirely inflexible, like I've mentioned before I do think he's willing and capable of changing his mind when presented with tangible new info). You see this with a lot of conversations he has with companions where his position never shifts or makes space for a different perspective once he's decided something is problematic or that something should be a certain way: his view on the Qun remains set, his view on mage freedom remains set, his view on slavery and the roles of spirit in Tevinter remain set and after quizzing Varric for a bit the conclusion he reaches on the state of the Dwarven people is mordant and very severe. Not that I'm expecting him to be convinced per se but some allowance, some "Well maybe under THOSE circumstances..." that doesn't become just a datapoint but actually evolve his position would be nice. There's also nothing wrong or weird with having well thought out stances and opinions on things. The problem comes in when you think that initial data gathering period that you're conducting, on your own, results in valid and extremely wide reaching conclusions. So much so that the only time you stop to reassess, which goes beyond just bringing up the conversation, is when you're confronted with a hard piece of counter evidence. And when that initial data gathering period results in a conclusion like "The world I find myself in is terminal, drastic action is required" that's a lot of trust and confidence to put on the conclusion you've reached, if you've missed something and that insight doesn't reach you fast enough dire consequences can arise. [tangent: it's becoming kinda awkward to say something along these lines happened with the raising of the Veil, mostly because I really like the idea of it being Blight and not necessarily the God-Kings Solas was trying to stop. We just don't know enough about what exactly went down though. If it was the Blight and it was in the same form it is in modern Thedas, the one Solas seems so afraid of, or if he understood that it would inevitably evolve into that if it was unleashed, then the Veil makes the most sense to me. Both in proportion to the threat and a in a sort of "break glass in case of emergency" kind of way. That lowers somewhat if it was to stop the God-Kings from gaining access to proto-Blight and is at its least convincing if it was just to lock up the God-Kings {tangent inside a tangent: despite Solas pointing out the tyrannical nature of the Evanuris what we find Vir diblafblaf doesn't exactly show a society in decline, yes there were massive egos at play but it wasn't like there was overt misery present and Mama Mythal seemed to regulate the genuine excess until she was killed. It'd be interesting to know exactly how that timeline went, whether it was: something awful is found in the mines -> Solas instigates rebellion to stop exploitation -> Mythal is murdered when she tries to get the gods to stand down -> Veil is erected or whether it was: Solas notices an issue in his society, the tyrannical God-Kings, and starts a rebellion -> it gets harder to deal with and the gods either find that useful yet dangerous substance or reopen it to defeat him -> the mine is collapsed and the fact that they'd go so far to maintain their false godhood propels the rebellion further -> Mythal is murdered for when she tries to keep the gods from going for it again -> Veil is raised. Or maybe Solas was Mythal's agent to start a rebellion and get them to stop using or unleashing the stuff and she was murdered when they found out.}] So anyway, it's entirely possible for Solas to still be a conflicted figure with an ego. The ego isn't saying "You're always right, you know what's best, these people are hut dwellers" (I have a penchant for hyperbole, as you pointed out, so I know I boil it down to that sometimes) it's "Oh no... I really wish I wasn't always right but I am and so~..." (always = hyperbole). It's the attitude of someone burdened by what they have to do cuz it clashes with some of their fundamental beliefs but genuinely believing there's no one else to do it. It's the underlying assumption that, if given access to the same info he has access to, that people would reach the wrong conclusions. And I don't really care how much personal experience or reasons he has for this, it's not a reasonable conclusion to come to. To assume you are one of the few people with the presence of mind to take the correct course of action is egotistical. I know for a fact, for example, that the majority of my Inquisitors would have joined him if he would have explained to them why his actions, ie removing the Veil and probably destroying the world, was genuinely necessary. It's an example of how he contributes to the situation he seems exasperated by. Person who only has part of the picture is about to make a bad decision -> Solas notices but refuses to furbish the additional information that would but the decision into its complete context -> uninformed person makes bad decision, possibly bringing them into conflict with Solas -> Solas is exasperated yet feels his approach is validated as people generally make bad decisions. (the Well is the most obvious example of this but he's also extremely derisive towards the Warden's mindset and doesn't expand on why, he implies there's a necessity in his actions that go beyond helping his people but doesn't tell you what that is etc) It could also just be narrative reasons for why Solas never shares but it'd doing a disservice to the character instead of it being an intentional flaw. Funny video: This isn't really hugely pertinent to this conversation but I was thinking about Solas' friendship with spirits the other day, he mentions that they shift to reflect the person they're talking to. If you're an angry person or want power to bash someone's head in you'll see rage. If you think you're better than other people and that entitles you to shit you'll see pride. But what would you see if you genuinely believed you had the best reasons for doing something? Can spirits, especially those still within the Fade, establish a broader context or do they only work with what's in the person's head? And admitting you made a mistake doesn't mean shit if it's not accompanied by an accompanying shift in behavior. Convincing himself he now knows better while making the same mistakes (whichever mistakes that might be referring to?) ie being convinced he knows enough to make an informed decision, not actually being informed enough to make an informed decision ("I didn't know he'd SURVIVE!") and then almost ending the world isn't a great start. Um... okay, so you've just refuted your one point with the next one. I'm fairly sure that Qunari invasion on South would be the very same, if not better, distraction for Solas. The difference between both scenarios is that in 4. there will obviously be something who'd be paying attention. You know... that little organization that knows most about Solas that he's just helped to save and kindly informed of what he's planning to do? Nah, Viddasala seems to be under the impression that if the Dragon's Breath plot was pulled off successfully the south would have fallen much easier ie they would've been a unified front by the time Solas was ready for his big reveal, instead they have a long, protracted war ahead of them with the south's leadership intact. As to the latter how he told as and that he told us are two different things. Josephine and Teagan make it pretty clear that the qunari scenario damaged the Inquisition at the bargaining table, the stance they take on an organization that only saved the world a few years ago is severe and Solas choosing to reveal the plot at that specific instance played a role in that harsh response. As to why he told is it's kind of quagmire, it might have been a genuine invitation to come up with an alternative solution but since he didn't tell us exactly why he's doing what he's doing that seems kinda iffy, it might have been an invitation to stop him but if he genuinely wants to be stopped that opens up a lot of very confusing questions, he might have wanted to help his dying friend, he could have just wanted to bloviate which I mean maybe but that's probably mean, he might have needed the Inquisitor's hand or something relating to the Anchor or despite the fact that he's now bald Medusa excising the qunari from his mirrors would have taken too many resources, or too much time or he's not immune to having a spear hurled through his skull. And I know we're suppose to think the Inquisition is better off now but I mean come on. It's like taking an organization like the FBI but with more resources, political clout and less oversight and turning it into the NYPD or Podunk's sheriff's office. Every large organization has spies and corruption you don't generally throw the baby out with the bath water and call it a win. But on the whole you make a pretty compelling case, I don't think I can or want to discard my take but yours is cogent and sensible and I can make some space in my "Why Solas is the way that he is" folder. The different perspective on the character makes me feel he'd lose points in the villain category but he makes up for them in the tragic figure category.
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Post by phoray on Feb 7, 2018 16:15:44 GMT
*snort to laughter* I think I said that just right in my head.
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Post by phoray on Feb 7, 2018 16:18:57 GMT
See I don't think Solas volunteered, so much as was likely used by Mythal. From how she treats her daughters, I don't think Mythal/Flemeth would be above tricking people to get what she wanted and I do think it would fit into the dynamic of Solas thinking he knows so much more than everyone else and tricking people, that it would be ironic that he's been used himself and likely kept in the dark. And her encouraging the rebellion could be the reason Solas thinks so well of her, but would also explain why her herself has slaves using vallaslin and the Well of Sorrows, as she didn't really care about the politics behind it but was using it as a political move. I've always found it a bit paradoxical that Mythal apparently cares so much about her people but is fine with using those horrid tools. While I do think the blight has something to do with it, I still don't think it was a purely selfless pursuit. She seems to have positioned herself as the true power. And given the way she manipulates from the shadows as Flemeth and seems to have so much patience, I just can't see her as the benevolent god queen. Those seem like skills she had before she got murdered. Well, I'm sure we will see anyway. I have no doubt that Solas was used by Mythal, and I think he's savvy enough to know that he was her pawn. He had to learn it from somewhere after all, the court in Elvhenan was just as bloodthirsty and terrifying as that of Orlais. The comparisons of his relationship with Mythal, to both Justinia and Leliana's and Celene and Briala's dynamics, are both very apt. For example - I think what ultimately cost Mythal her life, was something very similar to Celene's political burning of the alienage in The Masked Empire. If you'll recall the sinner codex: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Ancient_Elven_Writing"His crime is high treason. He took on a form reserved for the gods and their chosen, and dared to fly in the shape of the divine. The sinner belongs to Dirthamen; he claims he took wings at the urging of Ghilan'nain, and begs protection from Mythal. She does not show him favor, and will let Elgar'nan judge him." For one moment there is an image of a shifting, shadowy mass with blazing eyes, whose form may be one or many. Then it fades. At one point before she died, Mythal was forced to transfer the judgment of one of Dirthamen's people over to Elgar'nan (who was known to kill anyone who came before him for judgement), because the slave had committed an act that was directly insulting to her. The form reserved to her was that of a dragon, so we can infer that the slave learned to take that form and shoved it in the Evanuris' face, Mythal in particular. If there was a slave rebellion going on that she was pretending not to support publicly, she couldn't afford to look soft on the treatment of slaves. What looks like a bit of mischief instigated by Ghilan'nain, was a very deadly political move if the slave was highly valued or a close friend or lover of Dirthamen's. He may have been furious that Mythal didn't let his subject/slave/servant off easily. Thus, very possibly setting the stage for Dirthamen's betrayal if he had formerly been a solid ally in the rebellion. If Solas had been solidly anti-slavery at that point, he would have likely been furious with her, too, much like Briala with Celene, but he would have understood her reasoning. Ultimately, Mythal's refusal to commit completely to the anti-slavery movement, and instead relying upon subterfuge may have been what destroyed her. tagging gervaise21Some real good lore discussion and speculation up under the spoiler. specifically the idea that Mythall declined offering mercy to a favored slave of Dirthamen and that Ghilain'nain set it up.
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Post by phoray on Feb 7, 2018 16:23:11 GMT
If the plan was to seal the Evanuris he is now going to release them again by bringing the Veil down, I haven't played Trespasser in a while, but does he actually say this will release them AND that he has a plan for dealing with them? Because I always thought he didn't much mention their release, it's just an obvious extrapolation that if the first action sealed them, then undoing the first action will free them. Sealing tyrannical god kings only to later release the god kings but without the people to be tyrannical over because you killed all of them is not a success story. *laughing hard* ya, not a success story.
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Post by phoray on Feb 7, 2018 16:28:21 GMT
Varric: But say I did have that sense, that connection to the Stone. What would it cost me? Varric: Would I lose my friends up here? Would I stop telling stories? Varric: I like who I am. If I want to hear songs, I'll go to a tavern. Solas: You are wiser than most. hot damn, the friendship feels for Varric. I'd always said he didn't feel like a friend in Inquisition. he felt like a follower. He was Hawke's Friend, Inky's follower and occasional advisor. And I suppose he doesn't even have to be talking about the people in the group at that time. That could have been a solas, Vivienne Inky, varric group. But still, it gives me a shift of his Inquisition character. I wish my game didn't suffer the banter bug so I'd have heard this myself.
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Post by phoray on Feb 7, 2018 16:30:13 GMT
Inversed a bit obviously (I'M ALREADY DAMNED DON'T YOU SEE but not you my innocent lily I will not allow you to blemish yourself with this DARK PATH I have chosen to wander TORTURED and ALONE flee my petal dove), by all means Solas please let me damn my own soul if it means being part of the decision making process of what happens to billions of people. I'll get over it somehow. It's infatilizing at best and self-involved to the point of solipsism at its worst. oh my gosh, this is all awesome, how have you not been on my Followed List as recognition of your DA Lore knowledge and wordy wit.
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Post by Fredward on Feb 7, 2018 17:56:01 GMT
Inversed a bit obviously (I'M ALREADY DAMNED DON'T YOU SEE but not you my innocent lily I will not allow you to blemish yourself with this DARK PATH I have chosen to wander TORTURED and ALONE flee my petal dove), by all means Solas please let me damn my own soul if it means being part of the decision making process of what happens to billions of people. I'll get over it somehow. It's infatilizing at best and self-involved to the point of solipsism at its worst. oh my gosh, this is all awesome, how have you not been on my Followed List as recognition of your DA Lore knowledge and wordy wit. I have a follower! I have arrived! I'd just like to thank my family, God and the Academy.
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Post by phoray on Feb 7, 2018 18:02:10 GMT
oh my gosh, this is all awesome, how have you not been on my Followed List as recognition of your DA Lore knowledge and wordy wit. I have a follower! I have arrived! I'd just like to thank my family, God and the Academy. I clicked your name, and you're right, I'm literally the only one. Weird! but I hadn't seen your name alot either. Were you recently not on the board much? or do you live in the Solas Blanket Fort?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Feb 7, 2018 19:24:01 GMT
I have a follower! I have arrived! I'd just like to thank my family, God and the Academy. I clicked your name, and you're right, I'm literally the only one. Weird! but I hadn't seen your name alot either. Were you recently not on the board much? or do you live in the Solas Blanket Fort? You've started a movement. Plus, your avatar looked lonely in there
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 7, 2018 20:02:25 GMT
all hail fredward, the greatest fred we ever ed
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 7, 2018 23:41:17 GMT
I don't know how well I've been communicating this (and I might not have been communicating this) but a big part of ego!Solas is that he drinks his own KoolAid. He doesn't approach things or problems from a point of explicit superiority, he approaches them as a reasonable, insightful, curious person who wants to legitimately engage with an issue. Once he's gathered enough info he forms an opinion. It's somewhere around this part where the ego steps in because one he's reached a conclusion he's relatively set on it (which is not the same thing as being entirely inflexible, like I've mentioned before I do think he's willing and capable of changing his mind when presented with tangible new info). But changing mind when presented with tangible info is normal for people who have high standards of evidence. I get that it's sometimes easy to confuse with ego - scientists or science-minded people have often been thought of as arrogant or close-minded, just because this mindset requires solid proof or argument brought to the table. And I'm not arguing that Solas doesn't have a big ego. Of course he does - he's a smartass and a person who likes to be right. But I think there's just way more at play here that influences his perspective and pushes him to continue his mission that has a lot to do with what was mentioned before, plus his knowledge, his previous experience and, naturally, the fact that he's thousands of years old. The Qunari are in category of their own, and he seems to know way more about them than even the Qunari know about themselves. You can't however say that his opinion is entirely set, given that he befriends and respects Qunari Inquisitor as easily as other ones, and his friendship with Iron Bull, when he becomes Tal-Vashoth, is genuine to the point where he does a rare thing of declaring that he's going to be there for Bull in his moments of doubt. Um... so? The fact that Solas has set opinion on some topics doesn't yet proves that he has relatively set opinion on everything, or that those particular set opinions are wrong. I mean, it's not like we really heard a compelling case against mage freedom (to an extent), or for slavery (!) or how spirits in Tevinter are treated. And it's also not like we didn't hear Solas discussing those matters with others - and I do mean discussing, not just lecturing. But that full conversation literally ends with Solas saying "Well said. Perhaps I was mistaken" (his assessment of dwarves is part of that broader conversation with Varric we discussed before) thus conceding that his views on dwarves and whole idea of not fighting back may have been wrong. You're making something of a similar mistake here you accuse Solas of. Somehow you've reached conclusion that a.) Solas is only interested with initial data b.) at some point he stopped gathering data c.) most importantly: you can't ignore that as much as he may not know everything about modern Thedas, he knows way more about the world overall than potentially all the people of modern Thedosians combined. And we're not talking about trivial matters, but the very fundamentals of how the universe works, and potentially even how the life itself works in that universe. I mean sure, you can point out that he may be holding erroneous assumptions about people of this world - or more or less intentionally distances himself from them. But he also knows about people things that they probably don't know about themselves. Kinda like Cole and the rest of spirits. Heck, he certainly knows way more about how spirits work and how they relate to the world that they once were an integral part of and who suffer no less because of how the world is now. And he probably knows something more about the Blight - and if not the Blight, then probably about some other things that Thedosians are hardly aware of or not aware at all. So, at this point, we don't really know whether he thinks "the world I find myself is doomed" because he has wrongly assessed the state of it or its people, or because he knows about something that the world is largely of unaware yet. I agree. There's lot we don't know yet and I expect a few meaty reveals the more we dig into reasons why the world is how it is and what led to it. My current assessment is that the Blight - or whatever drives it - is something that is being built up as the ultimate threat way beyond Solas or whatever comes after him. And not the Blight we know it, in a sense of Archdemon-led darkspawn invasions. Those seem to be mere symptoms of a disease and don't address where the Blight originates from, why it corrupts life the way it does, or what is its relation to events in ancient past or maybe beyond that. It's possible that we may never get to the bottom of it, just because it's kind of a threat that lets BW move the storytelling wheel for DA universe, but I feel that at this point we've merely scratched the surface. It's kinda the same with the Void, that may or may not be related to the Blight in some way. *cough*slavery*cough*classism*cough* We're missing a lot of details now, but current timeline appears to be: -Solas finds something that scares him in the mine and it's the last straw for him - there's a datamined description that exists for that place: -he leads a rebellion to overturn Evanuris and stop whatever they're doing (aside from oppressing lower classes) -threatened by what appears to have been successful uprising against them, the Evanuris have turned on Mythal (who may have been secretly supporting Dread Wolf's efforts). According to Solas they did this because they wanted more power, whatever that power was, -with Mythal gone and more power in their hands it's possible the Evanuris were ready to crush anybody who oppose them once and for all, while ignoring the possibility that they may destroy everything in result, -Solas rises the Veil and the sheer effort drains him so much that he sleeps for millenia, -the rest of history happens, lol... Why assume that this is just about the presence of mind to take the correct course of action? Solas may yet legitimately be the only person to deal with the crisis, because hey - the Veil is his creation. And it's not like it's impossible in DA universe to be Literally-The-Only-Person-Who-Can-Deal With-Specific-Crisis... when Solas himself is a companion from the game in which we play Literally-The-Only-Person-Who-Can-Deal-With-Specific-Crisis. You do know that that complete context would potentially require getting to know thousands of years of lost history, or perhaps see the world in a way that mortals have no access to? And in a situation like that "I saw it in the Fade" would not cut it - Solas revealing that he knows more than he does would immediately trigger either an avalanche of suspicion or made him look like a loon. Nevermind that this isn't just about Solas being frustrated that the uninformed make the uninformed decisions, because it's not like there isn't enough information to stop and reconsider, be it in terms of the Well, or in terms of Wardens. At some point even Warden fanboy Blackwall is like 'wut the heck they're doing?'. It ain't about them being children in the dark, but about their dedication to duty that seems to blindside them often enough. Have you considered perhaps that Solas doesn't want people to know some things? I don't necessarily mean all - but he ain't the only one hiding things. When Inquisitor asks Flemeth why she wouldn't come and explain what happened to people/elves she gets somewhat angry and says "You don't know what you ask for, child". I don't think those are just narrative shortcuts because "yo, spoilers!", but because there are some things both Mythal and Solas think should remain unknown and want to take those secrets to whatever grave they've dug out for themselves. Another thing is that they may think there'd be time and place for revelations ("The world fears inevitable plummet to the abyss. Watch for that moment, and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap. It is only when you fall that you learn that you can fly"). According to Solas, yes. There's an entire string of dialogue in which he explains that when the mind doesn't carry 'corrupting influences' it reveals their true natures and they 'can be fast friends'. As for spirits only working with what's in the person's head... I guess it depends. I assume the stronger the spirit, the less it may reflect whatever it finds in the mind of a person, because it appears that the stronger the spirit is, the more defined personality of its own it has. Where does the assumption that he's making the same mistakes comes from? The fact that the goal may seem similar doesn't mean it's the same kind of mistake, or 'mistake'. There's no reason to assume that with South falling much easier due to lack of leadership it would just give up and get peacefully absorbed by the Qunari - and even with South conquered, there's still half of continent that would be gearing towards either war or defense. The resources of Qunari would've been split between pacifying the South and preparing for response from the North. The point is largely irrelevant considering that an alternative to that is the Winter Palace and everyone in it being pulverized. Nevermind that I'm fairly sure that it's Inquisition stopping the Qunari what has allowed Inquisitor to just barge into negotiations like a hero and dictate the decision what to do with Inquisition with no further negotiations. Plus - Solas didn't reveal the plot to everyone. He revealed the plot to the Inquisition. A spear hurled through his skull? He turned that spear into stone before it was thrown. Also - why would him genuinely wanting to be stopped would open up very confusing questions? If the guy's conflicted, or thinks that the world deserves a fighting chance (demonstrating that under the layers of cold calculation and damage and perspective and whatever there's still an idealistic dork underneath there somewhere), his motivation to save Inquisition ain't that confusing. He may be genuinely thinking that Inquisitor may have a chance of finding a solution he can't see - which would also mean that he's aware of limitations of his perspective and thinks that someone that isn't him can come up with something better. Which would explain why he can tell Inky that he'd treasure the chance to be wrong again. Yea - but in this case these spies and corruption have almost resulted with Southern leadership being blown apart. To put it simply - Inquisition can't turn to every other large organization there was and just rest on laurels. Thedas needs it to be primed, clear-eyed and free from politicking and people trying to rend it apart (which is likely what would happen eventually; I don't see Ferelden and Orlais not trying to continually undermine Inquisition, even if first EC went well for them). Thank you and thanks for being a good partner in discussion and making many hard-hitting or compelling points I'm just glad that at time of long wait for next DA there are folks on this forum that I can just go crazy with (just on length of posts alone ) when it comes to in-depth discussion of DA or its characters.
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Post by Fredward on Feb 8, 2018 6:12:42 GMT
I have a follower! I have arrived! I'd just like to thank my family, God and the Academy. I clicked your name, and you're right, I'm literally the only one. Weird! but I hadn't seen your name alot either. Were you recently not on the board much? or do you live in the Solas Blanket Fort? Funnily enough I'm not in the Solas thread at all. I don't post a ton so that's probably why? all hail fredward, the greatest fred we ever ed Aw thanks you guys. I'll try not to spam your notifications with cat gifs or something. Unless you're into that kind of thing in which case I got you.
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Post by Beerfish on Feb 8, 2018 22:41:39 GMT
I have to make a frank admission. I didn't really like the whole set up of Solas being a potential villain or anti villain in the next game. I just did not like the guy nor connect with him either in a good way or bad way. I have the sinking feeling we are going to have to stop him in a big rawr way or convince him at the last moment or not go through with his plans. ala Saren/TIM from mass effect.
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Post by phoray on Feb 8, 2018 22:47:21 GMT
ala Saren/TIM from mass effect. Neither of those things took very long, so if so, it's not like Solas would get much screen time. The rest of the game would be about all the super cool stuff.
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Post by Beerfish on Feb 8, 2018 22:49:41 GMT
ala Saren/TIM from mass effect. Neither of those things took very long, so if so, it's not like Solas would get much screen time. The rest of the game would be about all the super cool stuff. No but they both were last second full reversals so the player could feel he could talk the villain out of it.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Feb 8, 2018 22:53:09 GMT
I have to make a frank admission. I didn't really like the whole set up of Solas being a potential villain or anti villain in the next game. I just did not like the guy nor connect with him either in a good way or bad way. I have the sinking feeling we are going to have to stop him in a big rawr way or convince him at the last moment or not go through with his plans. ala Saren/TIM from mass effect. But aren't those the only options you ever have? Most times, you wouldn't even get the second option. It's just stab stab kill kill, profit! Although, I don't disagree with you about Solas. Never felt much either way for him, until Trespasser, when I wanted to poke his eyes out.
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