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Post by phoray on Feb 10, 2018 1:07:32 GMT
I mean, I suppose she could have gone someplace just very different and assumed it was another world. The Void is sort of referred to as "the far recesses of the Fade" right? yet the feeling about it is as if it's another place. But it's still described as in the Fade. The Fade could have a dark physical component that regualr old mages have never come close to touching, especially with the Veil up. her saying she's seen another place before in her travels that is unlike any place she's been before could be true from her perspective but doesn't definitely mean a different world. And what is she even defining as our world in this sentence anyway? Thedas? The literally unmappable Fade? She knows nothing. She makes educated guesses. And then she gets pissy when we get pissy with her for giving us her educated guesses as fact. (points at the entire ARbor Wilds fiasco). She was raised by a woman who got off on "I'm so wise, you'll never understand, but if you're worthy, maybe, someday..." bullshit. She can't help herself in spite of trying to not be anything like her mother.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 10, 2018 1:09:48 GMT
I mean, he conceptualizes the elves as destroyed, even though there were clearly survivors. He thinks Wisdom is dead when the Avvars would call it a rebirthing. He thinks a man living a life of leisure on an island, without trying to return to society, has given up on life. His prediction of the world being burned is implied to be kind of... loose. His bar for “truly living” is so dang high that he’d call a disaster an apocalypse long before any normal person would. And if Corypheus is any indication, he severely underestimates how tenaciously modern Thedas can cling to life. We are talking about a guy who is one of few immortals left in a largely mortal world and comes from a world full of esoteric stuff and metaphors and ideas brought to life. Either way, for him 'death' can mean different things than for average Thedosian. And if hints of what's to come are correct, Corypheus may he later interpreted as mere sneeze compared to whatever will lurch at Thedas next. The guy didn't even really know the nature or origin of his Blight-related powers and we have no idea whether he was fully in control of his mind or actions.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 10, 2018 1:11:26 GMT
At this point, I'm going to assume that unless Flemeth is in her body, she's full of shit. I love the woman, I really do, but she is an idiot. I think this is usually a pretty safe assumption, but in this case, it was something she said based on experience. I mean, I suppose she could have gone someplace just very different and assumed it was another world. She did. And we did as well. Crossroads, remember? Vir Dirthara? Those are technically places that are somewhat apart from Thedas.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 10, 2018 1:12:36 GMT
Would it cause harm to the other races? Weren't the ancient dwarves described as "soulless". So Dagna will get a few seconds of actually experiencing magic, before losing herself to a hive mind?
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 10, 2018 1:18:52 GMT
Would it cause harm to the other races? Weren't the ancient dwarves described as "soulless". So Dagna will get a few seconds of actually experiencing magic, before losing herself to a hive mind? "Dwarves are the severed arm of a once mighty hero, lying in a pool of blood, undirected, whatever skill at arms it had gone forever. Although it might twitch to give the appearance of life, it will never dream."I wonder, too. He expresses surprise that dwarves can create "such fascinating inventions" despite not being connected to the Fade. And I wonder about the qunari - if they're some dragon/elf experiment of Ghilan'nain or the ancient magisters, can they be unmade? Will they? I have no idea, but I'm pretty sure Solas does.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 10, 2018 1:25:39 GMT
What if we discover good reasons to do something with the Veil? Or would be put in a situation where Veil removal is better than alternative? I'm not saying that exactly this will happen, just that it's a potential possibility. Realistically, it depends on the character I'm playing and how they feel about it. But from a personal perspective, those good reasons would have to be... well, pretty damn good for me to even consider it. Aside from the seemingly inevitable death and destruction, we're not even sure what a Veil-less world would look like. Would it inflict magic on the likes of Sera and Fenris? Would it cause harm to the other races? To elves that aren't of the ancient variety? Who's going to be in charge of this new world?? Maybe it'll be a Legend of Korra Spirit World scenario where that's the way things were meant to be and no one is physically or emotionally harmed but at this point we just don't know and I'm erring on the side of Do Not Want. Well yea, here's the thing - we just don't know at this point. But we do know that Flemeth seems to be fairly convinced that 'new age' of some kind is coming and she seems to be encouraging Thedosians to take a leap and 'learn whether they can fly'. Needless to say, I think some sort of significant change is coming to Thedas regardless of what happens to the Veil. Then there's the damn Sandal prophecy that does seem to be talking about something Solas-related: "One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see."
Considering that Solas has already told us that the Veil suppresses most people's conscious connection to the Fade, it's possible that... well... everybody will get magic back. Which I assume will come with more than just ability to throw fireballs. Way more. So much more that I think - at this point - that when both Solas and Sandal mean about restoration, it means that... everybody will revert to being ancient elves again, shedding distinctions between themselves that grew with time after the Veil went up, or perhaps a tad earlier (with dwarves potentially being people who have split way earlier). No, really. I think that's a possibility.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 10, 2018 1:27:50 GMT
And I wonder about the qunari - if they're some dragon/elf experiment of Ghilan'nain or the ancient magisters, can they be unmade? Will they? I have no idea, but I'm pretty sure Solas does. Qunari will probably be "safer" than dwarves, anyway. The writeup on the Freed Are Slaves mosaic seems to imply in retrospect that Elves were using Qunari for heavy labor, so they probably won't have their minds destroyed by their very nature. Maybe.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 10, 2018 1:35:09 GMT
Realistically, it depends on the character I'm playing and how they feel about it. But from a personal perspective, those good reasons would have to be... well, pretty damn good for me to even consider it. Aside from the seemingly inevitable death and destruction, we're not even sure what a Veil-less world would look like. Would it inflict magic on the likes of Sera and Fenris? Would it cause harm to the other races? To elves that aren't of the ancient variety? Who's going to be in charge of this new world?? Maybe it'll be a Legend of Korra Spirit World scenario where that's the way things were meant to be and no one is physically or emotionally harmed but at this point we just don't know and I'm erring on the side of Do Not Want. Well yea, here's the thing - we just don't know at this point. But we do know that Flemeth seems to be fairly convinced that 'new age' of some kind is coming and she seems to be encouraging Thedosians to take a leap and 'learn whether they can fly'. Needless to say, I think some sort of significant change is coming to Thedas regardless of what happens to the Veil. Then there's the damn Sandal prophecy that does seem to be talking about something Solas-related: "One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see."
Considering that Solas has already told us that the Veil suppresses most people's conscious connection to the Fade, it's possible that... well... everybody will get magic back. Which I assume will come with more than just ability to throw fireballs. Way more. So much more that I think - at this point - that when both Solas and Sandal mean about restoration, it means that... everybody will revert to being ancient elves again, shedding distinctions between themselves that grew with time after the Veil went up (with dwarves potentially being people who have split earlier). No, really. I think that's a possibility. While I believe Flemythal is indeed encouraging us to go that route, I don't see any particular reason to listen to her? We know that she's more of an ends justifies the means person. She wasn't a great mom to Morrigan. She rescued Hawke and the Warden because she needed them, but she doesn't go around using her powers to help little old ladies cross the street. She's a former human lady with an ancient elven god-king stuck in her head, and I seriously question her judgment on most things. And I think that's an interesting theory, but I personally don't think it's likely. For the elves, maybe. But humans came to Thedas from somewhere else. So did the qunari. It's just as likely they have totally different origins from the spirit-elf-people. Also I just have such a huuuuge objection to everyone being mages, in the fireball-throwing sense or the ascend-to-a-higher-plane sense. Sera, Bull, Fenris.... it just strikes me as such a huge violation, forcing magic on them when they've had such traumatic experiences with it, eeuughh... I don't want to think about it.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 10, 2018 1:55:05 GMT
While I believe Flemythal is indeed encouraging us to go that route, I don't see any particular reason to listen to her? Yea, but from the way she worded it, the change or 'plunge into abyss' is something that will likely happen anyway. I would, but she underlines in every game that she raised Morrigan the way she did for some very specific reasons. Just like she rescued Hawke/Warden for specific reasons. Those nudges in history aren't just for her personal amusement - and however bitter she sounds or how questionable her actions are, she seems to care about this world and what happens to it in her own grey way. Now it's just a question of what exactly she sees that may be coming. That's what human history claims. History so full of holes that there are no mentions of Veilless world in it. Anyway, The current Qunari sailed from somewhere mere four (?) hundred years ago - humans arrived on Thedas... two millenia ago? That's still thousands of years after the Veil was formed. They may have as well moved away from Thedas and came back, for all we know. They'd have enough time for that - and in magical world we don't need as much time for evolution (or it to be biological) in the first place. Just the fact that elves can give birth to fully human individuals if one of parents is human and the fact that spirits CAN become fully human (Cole) speaks of some sort of magical processes that we're not yet fully familiar with. Plus, being from somewhere else doesn't mean that the elves weren't there too. We have no idea how far and wide Elvenhan has spanned. Which is why Solas probably feels icky about whatever he plans either way. Even if we assume that there won't be massive destruction and people will regain what they lost, a staunch advocate for free will such as Solas is bound to be torn about it. He'd impose magic on people, after his actions resulted with folks like Sera or Iron Bull being non-magical in the first place. Quite a conundrum. But that assumes that returning magic is an end goal and we have no guarantee that it is. If it's a mean of survival, or if it would be beneficial for population as a whole...
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Post by phoray on Feb 10, 2018 1:57:11 GMT
Would it cause harm to the other races? Weren't the ancient dwarves described as "soulless". So Dagna will get a few seconds of actually experiencing magic, before losing herself to a hive mind? Fucking creepy. Just like, whats her name from descent? Valta? I called it the moment it happened, that's Corypheus release from teh Warden Prison 2.0 shit right there.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Feb 10, 2018 1:58:21 GMT
Um, Morrigan clearly said that she has travel between worlds and also said "Not all eluvians lead to our world." I just watched this video that you posted, and what Morrigan actually says, word for word, is: Morrigan: Not all the mirrors lead back to our world. The ancients were nothing if not... resourceful. Inquisitor: If they don't lead back to our world, then...? Morrigan: Places between, like this one. I can describe it no better. She doesn't say she has been to other worlds, just other pocket dimensions/in-between places like the Crossroads are. And she goes on to say that you can't stay in these in-between places forever. Maybe that would be different for elves, since it's been established that they experience the in-between places differently from humans and the other races. But still, there is no basis from that video to assume that there is another place Solas could go with his people (whoever they are) and stay forever.
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Post by phoray on Feb 10, 2018 1:59:49 GMT
everybody will revert to being ancient elves again I know you're going off into fun imagination land. But fuck that shit every side of Sunday. I'm a human, or a dwarf, or a qunari. Or a regular non magical elf. And I like myself that way. Fuck a better version of myself decided by someone else.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Feb 10, 2018 2:02:29 GMT
While I believe Flemythal is indeed encouraging us to go that route, I don't see any particular reason to listen to her? Yea, but from the way she worded it, the change or 'plunge into abyss' is something that will likely happen anyway. I would, but she underlines in every game that she raised Morrigan the way she did for some very specific reasons. Just like she rescued Hawke/Warden for specific reasons. Those nudges in history aren't just for her personal amusement - and however bitter she sounds or how questionable her actions are, she seems to care about this world and what happens to it in her own grey way. Now it's just a question of what exactly she sees that may be coming. I think Morrigan understood why Flemeth raised her the way she did in later years, after all, she herself also hinted that she knew what was coming. Still, she likely felt the upbringing could have been better. It can be better and still attain the goals. Hence she told Flemeth she would never raise her son the way she was raised, even as he was created and existed for a purpose. I doubt Flemeth was any happier, note her expression when Morrigan let loose her anger at her. She did release the son from his burden and her last words were significant.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 10, 2018 2:06:57 GMT
Qunari sailed from somewhere mere four hundred years ago - humans arrived on Thedas... two millenia ago? That's still thousands of years after the Veil was formed. They may have as well moved away from Thedas and came back, for all we know. They'd have enough time for that - and in magical world we don't need as much time for evolution (or it to be biological) in the first place. Just the fact that elves can give birth to fully human individuals if one of parents is human and the fact that spirits CAN become fully human (Cole) speaks of some sort of magical processes that we're not yet fully familiar with. Plus, being from somewhere else doesn't mean that the elves weren't there too. We have no idea how far and wide Elvenhan has spanned. Very true. We don't even know if the Veil is localized, if it only affects as far as the elves went at the time, if Thedas is a globe and Solas's actions affected everything... there is so, so little we know about the wider world of Thedas that I think anything is possible. And of course you're right that there's something fishy going on with elven reproduction and spirits being able to will themselves human (or elven or... whatever). He may feel icky, but I think I feel a thoooouussand times more icky about it. And it really depends on how one defines being "beneficial for the population as a whole"... gets into Mass Effect Synthesis ending terrority, where there may be advantages.... but I couldn't go through with it myself because it felt like too much of a violation and I'm unwilling to impose that on people who have no say in it, whether it's 'for their own good' or not. But I'm not Solas and he obviously thinks it's a viable option LOL.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 10, 2018 2:12:16 GMT
everybody will revert to being ancient elves again I know you're going off into fun imagination land. But fuck that shit every side of Sunday. I'm a human, or a dwarf, or a qunari. Or a regular non magical elf. And I like myself that way. Fuck a better version of myself decided by someone else. Yea, but what if the world how it is prevents people being even more than the are now? And I don't just mean in esoteric ways. We have records and pictures that speak of way more forms and species than there exist now - nevermind that elves were talented shapeshifters. They may have very literally decided who they are and changed their shapes accordingly and not just be dwarves or humans, but dragons or snake people or fantastical beings like six-legged pegadeer My current crackpot theory is that the Veil (and maybe some events during the war) may have made populations forget that they can be more than just one shape or race (though in that context race is mostly an illusion) and after years of stagnating and forgetting they subconsciously settled for one. It's also potentially possible that some creatures were also 'locked' in shapes that have slowly robbed them of sentience - like dragons. Or halla (it would explain some creepy elven murals depicting halla. Or their weird laughter...). This isn't actually a new idea. Wizards and magical people changing shape and at some point forgetting who they were is a fairly popular trope in fiction, and Dragon Age has had fun with tropes since its inception.
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Post by phoray on Feb 10, 2018 2:21:05 GMT
because it has uncomfortable ethical ramifications. What if injecting this Down's Syndrome Adult with the magical injection would reverse their Down's Syndrome and make them like the rest of us? Do we drag them screaming and crying to the injection chamber? But it's all fine. They'll smile and thank us when they come out.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 10, 2018 2:22:06 GMT
I know you're going off into fun imagination land. But fuck that shit every side of Sunday. I'm a human, or a dwarf, or a qunari. Or a regular non magical elf. And I like myself that way. Fuck a better version of myself decided by someone else. Yea, but what if the world how it is prevents people being even more than the are now? And I don't just mean in esoteric ways. We have records and pictures that speak of way more forms and species than there exist now - nevermind that elves were talented shapeshifters. They may have very literally decided who they are and changed their shapes accordingly and not just be dwarves or humans, but dragons or snake people or fantastical beings like six-legged pegadeer My current crackpot theory is that the Veil (and maybe some events during the war) may have made populations forget that they can be more than just one shape or race (though in that context race is mostly an illusion) and after years of stagnating and forgetting they subconsciously settled for one. It's also potentially possible that some creatures were also 'locked' in shapes that have slowly robbed them of sentience - like dragons. Or halla (it would explain some creepy elven murals depicting halla. Or their weird laughter...). This isn't actually a new idea. Wizards and magical people changing shape and at some point forgetting who they were is a fairly popular trope in fiction, and Dragon Age has had fun with tropes since its inception. This is one of those ideas that I love in theory because I love creepy shit (imagine being locked in nug form for all eternity! And then some Orlesian woman adopts you and names you Schmooples). On the other hand, nooo muh setting.
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Post by phoray on Feb 10, 2018 2:25:24 GMT
And then some Orlesian woman adopts you and names you Schmooples I can't unthink this now. That bitch is making money and connections from that spirit's loins!
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Post by phoray on Feb 10, 2018 2:33:33 GMT
vertigomezmidnight teaI just want to point out,(and only Mass Effect players will know what I'm talking about) that I could NOT take the supposedly good feel Synthesis ending because I would have been making a decision for billions of species without their consent. (it changed literally everyone in the milky way to a mixed breed of artifical and biological, supposedly ending ALL WAR FOREVER) I also could not unilaterally choose to Destroy all Artificial Life. (To end the War) I chose Control (Suicided myself into a computer that controlled the attacking forces that were wiping us out). Because that was literally the only choice I had that didn't infringe on others intrinsic right to choose their own fate. Even if Solas painted the new world as Blossoms and Sunshine for the newly resumed Super Race where everyone would be better versions of themselves. I would stab him. And turn around and embrace the muck and racism. We will earn our ascension our way.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 10, 2018 2:36:16 GMT
because it has uncomfortable ethical ramifications. What if injecting this Down's Syndrome Adult with the magical injection would reverse their Down's Syndrome and make them like the rest of us? Do we drag them screaming and crying to the injection chamber? But it's all fine. They'll smile and thank us when they come out. Well we ARE talking about Bioware game. Uncomfortable ethical ramifications abound. It's also why I think Solas is conflicted about the whole debacle in the first place. And there may not be a good answer for that kind of conflict either way (especially not now, since we don't know all the factors involved).
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 10, 2018 2:37:59 GMT
vertigomez midnight tea I just want to point out,(and only Mass Effect players will know what I'm talking about) that I could NOT take the supposedly good feel Synthesis ending because I would have been making a decision for billions of species without their consent. (it changed literally everyone in the milky way to a mixed breed of artifical and biological, supposedly ending ALL WAR FOREVER) I also could not unilaterally choose to Destroy all Artificial Life. (To end the War) I chose Control (Suicided myself into a computer that controlled the attacking forces that were wiping us out). Because that was literally the only choice I had that didn't infringe on others intrinsic right to choose their own fate. Even if Solas painted the new world as Blossoms and Sunshine for the newly resumed Super Race where everyone would be better versions of themselves. I would stab him. And turn around and embrace the muck and racism. We will earn our ascension our way. I chose the Destroy ending (with the hope that they could be saved... resurrected... reconstructed? after the Reapers were dealt with), but otherwise I agree completely. I'm just not okay with altering peoples' bodies and minds without their permission, no matter how great and wonderful the result supposedly is. We'll see when we get there. But the idea makes me itchy.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 10, 2018 2:40:22 GMT
This is one of those ideas that I love in theory because I love creepy shit (imagine being locked in nug form for all eternity! And then some Orlesian woman adopts you and names you Schmooples). On the other hand, nooo muh setting. It could be even funnier - what if Solas's trap on Evanuris basically means sentencing them to eternity of incarnating into harmless animals? Elgar'nan: (I WAS THE RULER OF THE WORLD AT SOME POINT, GODDAMNIT!) Leliana: Now, now, Schmooples, it's time for your bath! Elgar'nan: *squeaks grumpily*
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 10, 2018 2:45:32 GMT
I chose the Destroy ending (with the hope that they could be saved... resurrected... reconstructed? after the Reapers were dealt with), but otherwise I agree completely. I'm just not okay with altering peoples' bodies and minds without their permission, no matter how great and wonderful the result supposedly is. We'll see when we get there. But the idea makes me itchy. Well, you'd probably be better heroes than me, because - from current perspective - I'd probably be the one to take the pragmatic route (I mean, nevermind that IRL it's fairly safe to say that - if things go well - we'll be 'synthesized' with artificial life long before we meet aliens, lol)... I mean, it's not like me deciding what to do with lives in the whole galaxy doesn't mean trumping on everyone else's will anyway, because ultimately I am deciding to leave people how they are and potentially depriving them of infinite possibilities. So I am still a deciding force, even if I choose to decide to keep things relatively how they were.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 10, 2018 2:47:23 GMT
This is one of those ideas that I love in theory because I love creepy shit (imagine being locked in nug form for all eternity! And then some Orlesian woman adopts you and names you Schmooples). On the other hand, nooo muh setting. It could be even funnier - what if Solas's trap on Evanuris basically means sentencing them to eternity of incarnating into harmless animals? Elgar'nan: (I WAS THE RULER OF THE WORLD AT SOME POINT, GODDAMNIT!) Leliana: Now, now, Schmooples, it's time for your bath! Elgar'nan: *squeaks grumpily* Actual footage of Elgar'nan post-nug transformation:
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 10, 2018 2:51:10 GMT
I chose the Destroy ending (with the hope that they could be saved... resurrected... reconstructed? after the Reapers were dealt with), but otherwise I agree completely. I'm just not okay with altering peoples' bodies and minds without their permission, no matter how great and wonderful the result supposedly is. We'll see when we get there. But the idea makes me itchy. Well, you'd probably be better heroes than me, because - from current perspective - I'd probably be the one to take the pragmatic route (I mean, nevermind that IRL it's fairly safe to say that - if things go well - we'll be 'synthesized' with artificial life long before we meet aliens, lol)... I mean, it's not like me deciding what to do with lives in the whole galaxy doesn't mean trumping on everyone else's will anyway, because ultimately I am deciding to leave people how they are and potentially depriving them of infinite possibilities. So I am still a deciding force, even if I choose to decide to keep things relatively how they were. I guess I just want nothing to do with infinite possibilities. I just want to be myself LOL. I'd be a crappy hero, though. If someone said, "destroy the Alpha Relay and condemn 300,000 Batarians or the Reapers are going to wipe out the entire galaxy" I'd just NOPE right out of there and let the galaxy burn. I can't do this 'greater good' stuff.
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